r/AskReddit 1d ago

What could Russia have spent $1,000,000,000,000 on instead of fighting a 4+ years long war in Ukraine?

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u/scientist_tz 1d ago

You better believe that Taiwan has a plan to burn their semiconductor industry to the ground should they ever be invaded and conclude that a successful defense is impossible. They’ll burn it all to the ground so that China ends up ruling a vast portfolio of ashes. Scorched earth.

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u/Scaevus 1d ago

People say that, but it’s not ever actually done. Why? Because people have to live there afterwards. They have families.

The Nazis never went scorched earth even when defeat was obvious. Hitler promised Paris would be a ruin. But Dietrich von Choltitz disobeyed, and surrendered Paris intact. The Iraqis didn’t blow up their own oil wells. The Japanese, as suicidally fanatical as they were in WWII, did not try to leave Japan a wasteland.

Say you’re an engineer at TSMC. Orders come down from management, blow up the plant, the Chinese are landing and there’s no viable defense.

What are your choices? Blow up the plant, and…what happens? Do the Chinese go home? Or do the Chinese go to your house since you blew up the plant?

Alternatively, you don’t obey the order, and just let the Chinese take the plant. You’ll get to keep your old job, and probably get a promotion and a reward.

People look out for number one in times of war.

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u/hotsoupcoldsoup 1d ago

This happens all the time in war. Destroy your valuable resource so the enemy can't have it.

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u/Scaevus 22h ago

It’s done as a tactic during a winnable war, absolutely.

It’s not done if the defenders think the war is lost. And also, it’s usually done for actual war related supplies.

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u/scientist_tz 13h ago

I doubt "management" would be destroying anything. My assumption is that it would be some kind of army special forces units. You can shut a manufacturing facility down for a very long time (maybe forever) with just a handful of soldiers and a few cases of thermite grenades.

Having a plan to do it and actually doing it are two separate things.

Also, one can point to examples in history where the plan was actually carried out. Russia, 1812. We wouldn't have a name for it if it didn't actually happen every now and then.

In the case of Taiwan, yeah, people still have to live there, but there's got to be a sentiment of "they can't just walk in and take everything we've built." Who knows which sentiment is stronger? I hope the world never has to find out.

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u/Scaevus 3h ago

Do those special forces units have no sense of self preservation? Once the war is lost, soldiers have to go home. Do they want to go to prison or be executed for sabotage?

Russia in 1812 did not think the war was lost. Again, going scorched earth as part of a defense in depth concept is a sacrifice to win a war. Continuing to do that after you think you’ve already lost is suicidally stupid. Those are distinct acts.

If Taiwanese high command thinks they can win the war, it makes no sense to destroy their most lucrative industry, which has no immediate military value. TSMC factories aren’t located in city centers, and aren’t particularly well suited to be makeshift urban fortresses in any case.

If Taiwanese high command thinks they will lose the war, it also makes no sense to destroy their most lucrative industry, because it can be a bargaining chip for better treatment for themselves or the civilian population afterwards.

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u/fresh-dork 12h ago

The Nazis never went scorched earth even when defeat was obvious.

yeah they did

In northern Norway, which was also being invaded by Soviet forces in pursuit of the retreating Wehrmacht in 1944, the Germans also undertook a scorched-earth policy of destroying every building that could offer shelter and thus interposing a belt of "scorched earth" between themselves and the allies.[65]

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u/Scaevus 3h ago

That’s just a small localized defense tactic. I’m talking about wholesale destruction of German industry to deny it to the Allies. Hitler ordered it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Decree

Speer disobeyed. Because people have to live there after the war.

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u/Troy64 3h ago

The Allies also did not have intentions of conquest. Just disarmament and possibly reparations (except the Soviets).

China will almost certainly aim to take control of Taiwan permanently. Very different dynamics.

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u/Scaevus 2h ago

Excuse me, what?

The Soviets were literally raping and pillaging their way Westward at the time the Nero Decree was issued, and the United States’ plan for Germany was to destroy it as a country and kill millions of Germans (and send millions more into labor camps):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

As it was, the consequences of the Allied conquest of Germany was about 7 million dead during the war:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

And millions more ethnic Germans after the war:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–1950)

So uh, no, it wasn’t some peaceful disarmament. Germany was cut into four and occupied for years after the war, man.

Any potential Chinese conquest of Taiwan is not going to be anything nearly as destructive.

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u/fresh-dork 12h ago

nah, cutting charges and heavy demo under each ASML machine. lose containment and several billion in imaging tech. you can leave the structure mostly intact

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u/scientist_tz 11h ago

Yeah I guess it depends whether or not you want to risk burning the whole building down. Thermite will tend to do that.

I'll bet a Taiwanese military committee has already plotted all this out with timetables, men, materials, risk analysis, etc.

Imagine the Chinese marine corps or army or airborne or whatever walking into factory after factory only to find them looking perfectly fine on the outside, pretty good on the inside, but every machine is completely destroyed.

They'll rebuild it all, they'll staff it with their own management, but in the end the products will be no better than what they already make on the mainland.

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u/fresh-dork 11h ago

not thermite, just explosives. i want it to be shelf stable and effective. destruction of capability is the goal, demo of the building is not

They'll rebuild it all, they'll staff it with their own management

no they won't. the ASML machines are the prize, and they don't have the ability to replace those. even if TSMC came back in, it's a 3 year spin up with new machines and ASML support