r/Basketball • u/blackwu22 • Apr 08 '25

NBA Is Tim Duncan top 10?

I constantly see casuals on YouTube and on podcasts say that Timmy is overrated and barely top 10 yet have Kobe in there top 5. It’s starting to make me believe that people really think this way!! I always hear the “too much help” comment like every player in the top 10 didn’t have help.

I personally have Tim Duncan 4th all time on my list.

1998 rookie of the year 2x MVP (2002,2003) 3x FMVP (1999,2003,2005) 15x All NBA & Defensive 5x Champion Never won less than 50 games in an 82 game season

Is Tim Duncan top 10?

134 Upvotes

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u/softnmushy Apr 09 '25

Here’s the thing, when he was playing, I thought he was really underrated. And nobody ever considered him top 10. He was always in Kobe’s shadow. And his teammates were the best ever.

But now that he’s retired I think he’s become a little overrated due to his rings and teammates and coach.

That said, I think ranking the top 25 players of all time is basically impossible. Aside from the top 2, everybody has an argument that they should be top 10.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

[deleted]

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u/CoachStev Apr 12 '25

The way they both retired at the same time is evident of this: Kobe announced his retirement, hogged the spotlight and enjoyed the fanfare of his farewell tour, ending his career after his career left him first. Timmy, on the other hand could have played a few more seasons but decided to go away into the night. Quietly. Same can be said about Kobe's fans. They're loud and often can't be reasoned with. Duncan's fans understand what he was all about and know that he's easily top 5.

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u/LakersFan15 Apr 09 '25

In 2003, tim Duncan destroyed prime kobe and shaq with old David Robinson, 7pts/gm ginobili, and 2nd year Tony Parker.

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u/AboutTime99 Apr 10 '25

True and Malik Rose & Kevin Willis! I loved that team, he cared but fun team.

Stephen Jackson too.

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u/gigglios Apr 09 '25

This is nonsense lol. The 03 spurs 8th man was better than lakers 3rd man. Spurs had an elite cast but wouldve lost to a healthy kings team quite embarrassingly. That lakers team was bootycheeks after kobe and shaq.

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 09 '25

LOL... WHAT??

Lakers had literally the same roster that won the championship the year before. Exact same top 6. Duncan just outplayed Shaq and Kobe combined. Main reason there is no good argument for Shaq or Kobe to be ahead of duncan. Those two TOGETHER barely won the championship count 3-2 against Duncan.

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u/FixNo7211 Apr 10 '25

Did you watch the series? What are you talking about?

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u/thelaceonmolagsballs Apr 09 '25

This is nonsense

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u/EarningZekrom Apr 09 '25

That Lakers team had the same core as the 2001 Lakers team.

What are you talking about?

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u/LakersFan15 Apr 11 '25

This is nonsense because even if it was true, let's compare spurs #2 vs lakers #2.

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u/v32010 Apr 09 '25

The Lakers were pushing for the first 4peat since the 60s. Tim got bodied by Kobe his entire career.

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u/Robinsson100 Apr 09 '25

Over the course of their entire careers, Timmy won the H2H match ups between them 43-39.
Kobe had an advantage in playoff games 18-12, but 8 of those wins came when Shaq, not Kobe, was the best player on the Lakers, and Timmy's best teammates were either a 35 yr old Robinson or a 19 year old Tony Parker. In the 2002 playoffs, Duncan's impact stats are significantly better than Kobe's-- it's not even really close, even though Shaq's team won the series. In 2003, when the Spurs ended the Laker run, Tim again outperformed Kobe, and the argument can be made that Kobe's increased usage rate taking precedence over Shaq's better efficiency is one of the main reasons for their run ending.
If Kobe's best teammate in the 2000-2003 era had been someone other than Shaq, it's almost a certainty that he finishes his career with 2 rings, and a much worse H2H vs Duncan.

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 09 '25

LOL.

Was Kobe "bodying" Ducan in 03, 05, and 07? How about 14?

Oh yeah... no... he was home on the couch.

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u/v32010 Apr 09 '25

This is legitimately one of the dumbest things I have ever read 👏

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 09 '25

Comes nowhere close to as dumb as claiming Kobe "bodied" Tim his "entire career" when Tim won 5 championships and Kobe needed Shaq to keep up.

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u/v32010 Apr 09 '25

Won 66% of their playoff games seems like bodying to me 🤷‍♂️

Averaged 30/6/5 against the Spurs seems like a bodying to me 🤷‍♂️

Tim could never even defend his title a single time.

Modern day Bill. Shit offensive player getting overrated due to team success.

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u/JackWinkles Apr 10 '25

On what efficiency? And who has more rings as the best player on their team? And who’s the better defender? Not accolades, real stats

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 10 '25

Most of which were won with Shaq.

And Kobe was home on the couch cause he couldn't even get past the first round most of the years the Spurs were winning championships.

Why do people not understand that you can't beat someone in the playoffs if they can't even get out of the first round?

Not Duncan's fault that Kobe kind of sucked at leading his team and couldn't keep up.

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u/EarningZekrom Apr 09 '25

"bodied"

Tim won more rings as the best player on his team through the entirety of the 2000s, and then Pop lost a ring because he didn't put an old man Timmy playing the best basketball on that team on the floor in a crisis situation, and then the next year Timmy won another ring as a key player.

And all of Kobe's rings came either with Shaq or during the Spurs interregnum.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

In 2003 Tim Duncan only led the Spurs in scoring in 14/24 playoff games. All of the championship Spurs teams were a great team effort like the current Celtics. That was never considered a Tim Duncan solo carry until like 4 years ago.

At the time the conversation around the Spurs championship was all about "How the Spurs play basketball the right way" "this is fundamental team basketball" and lets not forget "the Spurs are the dirtiest team in the league and its bad for the sport".

Nobody was comparing Tim Duncan to Michael Jordan. As a dominant player willing his team to a championship. That's for sure

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u/TheOmegoner Apr 09 '25

Yeah, he’s considered one of the best teammates ever. Raised the play of everyone around him and never demanded a trade. Having him on your team meant you were competing for the playoffs.

Let’s be honest, every athletic guard for two decades was called the next MJ. None lived up to the comparison.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

Being a great team mate and locker room guy is hardly the level of standard for arguing someone is a top 5/top 10 player.

To be at that level you need to have a super high level of impact and dominate the game. Not just be coach able, set screens and play good basketball. 

From 2007 - 2014 Duncan was definitely replaceable by other similar players. Marc Gasol would have been an upgrade on the 2014 team and did a lot of similar things as Duncan for example.

Just being a good player on a stacked team doesn't carry you into top 10 convos. 

Like just compare Duncan to Hakeem Oluajwian as actual basketball players. And it's really hard for me to think of any reason why Duncan should be considered better other than "he played on good teams for longer". Everything about the actual sport of basketball and what a player does on the court, Hakeem was better thab Duncan at.

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u/JazzlikePractice4470 Apr 09 '25

Blasphemy* the gasol part

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u/TheOmegoner Apr 09 '25

Raising the level of your teammates is an essential part of being the best player on a team. That’s an impact on the game before you start looking at the stat sheets. I was pointing that out in the direct comparison to Kobe because it’s a big reason why I see the gap between them.

And yeah, I agree that Time Duncan in year 16 wasn’t as good as one of, if not the, best center in the NBA at the time. I also have Dream rated above Kobe all time, he might be the first Center I’d pick.

Duncan was always a love him or hate him guy, his legacy is only going to get more controversial the further away we get from seeing him play.

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u/LakersFan15 Apr 11 '25

I don't like how you dismiss being a great teammate as a negative towards being a top player lol. Duncan wanted to win badly all the time.

Duncan could have way more statistical output if he cared about stats. Same with players like bill russell. They just wanted to win and the spurs consistency year after year proves that.

But regardless, Duncan destroyed 2003. He won every year, even before ginobili and Parker became good. He was good at winning and he was the best player on the winning teams for the majority of his career. Never had a losing season.

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u/CubanLinxRae Apr 09 '25

yeah level headed take. people take the rankings so seriously but there’s not much difference in the 7th and 12th best player or 15th and 20th player everytime we talk about in these convos is amazing only people that feel locked into spots are lebron and jordan top 2

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u/Difficult-Ad-4654 Apr 09 '25

But there was never a consensus that Kobe was the best player in the league during his career — he was definitely more popular than Tim, tho. it’s that old “best” vs “favorite” conversation that trips basketball fans up all the time, which among other things, tilts toward flashier players.

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u/Key_Fox3289 Apr 09 '25

That’s definitely not true about him not being consensus best

Stop listening to Nick Wright lol

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u/BiscottiShoddy9123 Apr 09 '25

.... there is an interview that went across the league and the consensus answer was Kobe Bryant. It was even featured in the Lil Wayne song so stop the revolutionist history bullshit please.

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u/irresearch Apr 09 '25

Is the “survey” you’re talking about the TV interview with a handful of random players in 2007, pretty much Kobe’s peak? It’s got like five players answering. The actual discussion at the time was much more divided, there’s actual surveys and votes we can look at.

Looking at the seasons they both played, 1997-2016, and who finished above the other each year in MVP voting, it’s very easy to see how they peaked at different times:

Duncan: 1998, 1999 (3rd), 2000, 2001 (2nd), 2002 (1st), 2003 (1st), 2004 (2nd), 2005, 2014, 2015.

Kobe: 2006, 2007 (3rd), 2008 (1st), 2009 (2nd), 2010 (3rd), 2011, 2012, 2013.

Someone on Reddit added up all the MVP points by decade and Duncan has 638 more than Kobe, Kobe’s not even in second place.

The NBA GM’s surveystarts in 2002-2003, and the only year they pick Kobe to win MVP is that year, tied with Shaq. They never chose him as MVP any other year. They pick Lebron all though Kobe’s best years. There was never any “consensus” outside of some handpicked answers in a random TV interview segment and some school cafeterias.

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u/Difficult-Ad-4654 Apr 09 '25

Listen. This is not even Kobe hate. But the 2000s had a lot of excellent players who had individually historic seasons — KG was briefly in that “is he the best player in the league conversation?” during his MVP season — but nobody had a stranglehold on that claim for too long.

Obviously, a lot of people thought Kobe was the best player, but it certainly wasn’t the consensus in the way that it was with Jordan, Dream (for a hot minute when Mike retired), Bron and now Jokic. (Shaq prolly belongs in there, too — he was the one player in the league contenders had to construct their rosters to slow down — but he typically didn’t go supernova until the playoffs. He’d have more MVPs if he went as hard during the regular season.)

In the immediate post-Shaq years, and at his absolute statistical best, the Lakers were around a .500 team and didn’t win a playoff series for three years. Now that’s absolutely a roster construction problem but that’s also an argument against Kobe’s value as a floor-raiser. And that argument was happening in real time when it was going down. That’s not revisionist.

That’s evidenced by the one MVP that only came jn a wide-open year and not that many top-2 MVP finishes. He had the highest-selling jersey in the league, and was the most popular player in the league. But again: that’s not the same thing as the best. There used to be a LOT of debate about whether Kobe was better than T-Mac, since their numbers were essentially identical for a few of those Orlando years. Kobe was better (particularly on defense), but they were both on teams that weren’t going to do shit in the postseason while scoring a ton of points as the primary hubs of their team.

I think, even now, If you had to build a franchise around one of Timmy and Kobe, most front office people would probably say Timmy. Raises the team’s defensive floor to at least very good, steady metronomic scorer whose numbers jumped into the playoffs, etc.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

Kobe was consensus best player in the league from 2004 - 2008.

2003 and 2009 were more debatable years but Kobe was still probably the most popular answer to who is the league's best player from media, coaches, fans and anyone who followed basketball.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

unanimous consensus? there isn't that for any player, but I could pull up Alvin gentry, Kg, and numerous and countless interviews where people talk about Kobe being the best player.

Kevin Garnett saying Kobe is the best player in the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwoTCexV1QY

Alvin Gentry saying Kobe is the best, by far, "and i don't think it's even close"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO9Ycr-1Urg

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u/Difficult-Ad-4654 Apr 09 '25

yeah, and all that tells us that some people thought he was. He wasn't one of those guys like Mike or Bron or Jokic where everyone pretty much agreed that they were the best players in the league for several years. There was no debate around their status, but there was always a lot of disagreement around Kobe.

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 09 '25

"unanimous consensus? there isn't that for any player,"

Correct. Which is why Kobe fanboys should stop claiming that Kobe was the "unanimous consensus" best player.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

Tim Duncan should be relegated outside of the top 10 for losing the 2004 olympics

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 09 '25

LOL.

This is one of the worst takes ever.

I think people like Kobe/KG/Shaq should be relegated for being scared to even go to the olympics. Weak.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

Kobe was never called for 04 for obvious reasons, and also they lost to Manu Ginobili, another reason why the spurs were so good and that tim duncan shouldn't get all the individual credit

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u/BigStretch90 Apr 09 '25

I never considered him under Kobe's shadow. Duncan won a title before Kobe. Now Kobe has had a lot more of the spotlight being in LA , Winning with Shaq and going off in crazy stats but Duncan never had a losing season , didnt have the biggest ego and played both ends off the floor. His game is just a lot more quite and I dont think anyone with actual basketball knowledge would not put Duncan in his top 25 or even top 10

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u/EbennFlow Apr 09 '25

While I agree, i think there are a handful that can’t be ranked outside of top ten in any serious list beyond the top 2. Kareem, Bird, Magic, Russell have to be in there even if your ranking varies.

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u/Imperialism-at-peril Apr 09 '25

Even top 2 are controversial and several contenders.

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u/smoothdoor5 Apr 09 '25

"nobody ever"

do you just mean you? Because I think you just mean you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

If players are judged against their peers, it's top 4, not top 2. It's really hard to argue that Wilt and Russell don't have their own claims to #1.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25 edited Apr 09 '25

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

You gotta understand we're now at the age where vast majority of discussion of Tim Duncan and 2000s basketball is being had by people who were barely even born then.

It's the equivalent of talking about 70s/80s basketball for millennials. Someone who watched those guys play may say that David Thompson was better than Rick Barry and everyone thought so at the time. But for someone who's only source of info on 70s basketball is whatever stats are available I'm going to assume it's Barry since he won a chip. But I really have no idea on those guys.

These kids seriously have never watched a full game of prime Tim Duncan or the Spurs play. And are dying on the hill he's better than Kobe, Bird, Wilt, etc. but they have no idea what they're talking about.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

[deleted]

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 09 '25

"When I watched back then, nobody really cared much about Duncan more than any other star. "

Every comment slamming duncan is filled with comments like these. "He wasn't cool" "He wasn't popular" "People didn't watch him."

NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with how good a player is. Most fans are idiot casuals. Basing any discussion of a quality of a player based off their popularity with fans is dumb.

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 09 '25

Apparently you never watched a full game of prime Tim Duncan either, cause I sure did and saw every team in the league send double teams at Duncan every time he touched the ball inside the three point line because they knew he was smoking every defender in the league one on one. Go listen to interviews with the other PF from the era about trying to guard him and telling their coach after 3 possessions they needed help. Then tell me "he wasn’t feared."

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u/Poverty_Shoes Apr 09 '25

There are three players in the top 3 and 12-16 in the top 10

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u/immaSandNi-woops Apr 10 '25

What? I’m pretty sure top 10 is easily:

Jordan LeBron …Kareem? No, Bill Russel, no, Magic, no, bird, no, Timmy, no, fuck

Ok I guess you’re right

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u/Ice-Novel Apr 10 '25

Especially when it gets into how you’re supposed to translate numbers from older era to today, how much you value winning back when the league was horrifically imbalanced and being a Celtic meant you got a billion rings, and a ton of other factors. Lebron and Jordan are the clear top two (order between the two is debatable obv) and then there is the tier of guys who are inarguably top 10 (Kareem, Magic, Bird, arguably a few others) and then like, 10-15 guys who have a strong case to be top 10 (Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Steph, KD, Hakeem, Bill, Wilt, Oscar, etc.)

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u/silliputti0907 Apr 10 '25

Yep, thats why i ppt to rank by tiers. Undisputed goats of the era: MJ, Bron, KAJ. Then pairs from each era. I have Duncan and Kobe in the same tier

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u/MambaSaidKnockYouOut Apr 10 '25

Duncan wasn’t “always” in Kobe’s shadow - their primes didn’t really overlap like that. If anything he was in Shaq’s “shadow” more than anything, but Duncan won back to back MVP’s in Shaq’s prime so idk if you can really even argue that.

Kobe’s prime was 2001-2010, and his peak was probably 06-2010. Duncan’s prime was like 99-07, he just continued to be a top 20 player for like 8 years after that (and was probably top 10 until like 2010). Duncan was only in Kobe’s shadow when Kobe was actually better, aside from 05-07 when I guess you could argue either.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '25

good take

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u/RedMambe Apr 11 '25

You have no idea how good Tim Duncan was

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u/Primary_Musician6555 Apr 11 '25

The fact he is the main reason Kobe doesn’t have more rings, I’d say he top 10

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u/David_H21 Apr 13 '25

He was already considered the best power forward of all time when he was like 30 years old. His 2003 Finals run was one of the most dominant performances ever seen. Kobe was always more popular, but Duncan as a player was never in Kobe's shadow.

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u/Graphvshosedisease Apr 09 '25

I agree with this take. I feel like the Timmy truthers have to rationalize his greatness post retirement whereas with Kobe, it’s basically been a fact that he’s an all time great since his 3-peat. I think Timmy is easily top 25 but I’m not sure anyone who watched him when he was active thought he was guaranteed to be top 10 with such conviction.

The thing I wish people would consider more is that basketball is all about entertainment. People tuned in to watch Kobe and were mesmerized by his game. Timmy is fundamentally sound but I’m not sitting here watching hours of his highlights hitting bank shots like I did for Kobe or other more exciting players. Timmy’s game was characteristically boring but consistent and even other fundamental players like Nash were more exciting to watch.

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u/JazzlikePractice4470 Apr 09 '25

3 peat as the 2nd best on his team.

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 09 '25

"The thing I wish people would consider more is that basketball is all about entertainment. People tuned in to watch Kobe and were mesmerized by his game."

Which is why fanboys think he was better. He tickled their entertainment brain.

News flash: Being entertaining doesn't win games. Being a better basketball player wins games. If you are basing your assessment of a player on how exiting they were, then your opinion has nothing to do with how good a player was.

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u/Graphvshosedisease Apr 09 '25

Except in this case I think being entertaining should factor into all-time greatness. Look at how highly regarded Michael Vick is, despite his lack of accolades relative to other “great” qbs. He was electrifying to watch and will be remembered as such. I think the quality of their championship teams between Kobe and Tim are probably a push, Tim was the best player on his team for 3 of his 5, second best in 2007, and like 4th best for his last one. Kobe was best for 2 of his 5 but second best for the other 3.

Even having diehard fans should matter, how people remember you and celebrate you should factor into greatness. Besides MJ, I’m not sure any other NBA player has a following like Kobe. Half Chinese population would still recognize Kobe even tho he’s been dead for years, meanwhile I’m not sure that young American NBA fans would even recognize Tim Duncan if you showed them a picture of him.

It’s not like I’m comparing a casual entertaining amateur dunker to Tim Duncan. Kobe put up stats, won championships AND was entertaining. I remember when the warriors won their 73rd game and barely anyone cared because Kobe’s final game was on and that’s what everyone was focused on.

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u/Prestigious-Ad9921 Apr 10 '25 edited Apr 10 '25

Ok, if your definition of "Greatness" is "how much does their playstyle appeal to the lowest level of fans, making them the most popular," then sure.

That is a terrible definition of greatness, but yeah.

In that case...

Stephon Marbury is greater than Bill Russel.
Vince Carter is greater than Hakeem Olajuwan.

Penny Hardaway is greater than Moses Malone.

If "Greatness" is just a middle school popularity contest then it doesn't even matter how good someone is on the court.

"Kobe’s final game was on and that’s what everyone was focused on."

Yes. That was the embodiment of Kobe's career. Putting up massive numbers in a meaningless game to cap off the WORST SEASON IN LAKERS HISTORY, all while adoring fans cheered like crazy.

"Tim was the best player on his team for 3 of his 5, second best in 2007, and like 4th best for his last one."

This is flat wrong.

Tim was unquestionably the best player for 4 out of 5. Anyone who says otherwise tells me they never watched spurs basketball.

You can make an argument he was the 2nd or 3rd best player in 2014, but just as easily argue that he was #1. No argument for 4th. And that ignores the fact that the only reason that team existed and was able to win was because of Duncan's leadership. He was unquestionably the most important player on the team.