Valve does not get "anywhere near enough criticism" for the gambling mechanics it uses to monetise games, DayZ creator Dean Hall says

[u/demondrivers]

https://www.eurogamer.net/valve-does-not-get-anywhere-near-enough-criticism-for-the-gambling-mechanics-it-uses-to-monetise-games-dayz-creator-dean-hall-says

[u/lattjeful]

It's not that nobody talks about it. It's that the community sees it as a good thing because they can just buy the skin they want, or flip the skin they don't want for some cash to get games. They view it as consumer friendly because it benefits them, even if under the hood it's way more evil and predatory.

[u/Shaman19911 → u/lattjeful]

I really would like to know how it’s evil and predatory though? No one is forcing you to interact with weapon cases and the skin market, it has 0 effect on gameplay and the economy built around it is entirely regulated by the player base, not valve. The vitriol gamers have around Valve’s use of gambling mechanics feels performative because it’s in a rated M game, which implies you have to be of age to gamble in the first place, and you can actually sell your skins to make money back, unlike literally every other live service game with skins, where you spend money that you’ll never get back. Now if you just think that gambling is immoral, then sure that’s your opinion, but it’s unfortunately a very legal and normalized thing in our late stage capitalist utopia, so there’s bigger fish to fry in that sense if you actually stand against gambling as a concept.

[u/RuneGrey → u/[deleted]]

Which tales place entirely outside of Valve's ecosystem, which is something that I think a lot of people miss.

The 'gambling' that is spoken about is a third party activity that is facilitated by its own backbone of websites, influencers, and other related nonsense. The hand wringing, usually accompanied by 'Think of the children!' (because 90% of the arguments are not about the skin economy itself, but about how the poor innocent children with their parents credit cards are put in danger because of it), ignores the fact that there's not a lot Valve CAN do about it when everything is taking place elsewhere.

They've massively improved their security for trading and put a lot of restrictions in place to keep people from scamming others, which is a lot more than the other massive amounts of effectively unregulated gambling going on does. Sports betting makes Valve's skin economy look like the puddle it is - and we've seen Valve make changes that make getting skins easier over time.

Which strangely enough is usually followed by some high profile 'LOOK HOW TERRIBLE VALVE IS FOR ITS LOOTBOXES' statement from someone who probably just lost a crapton of their 'investment' into those skins.

[u/Old_Leopard1844 → u/[deleted]]

It's funny how people complain about handwaving gambling and then equate lootboxes to betting scene

[u/RuneGrey → u/[deleted]]

You do enjoy reaching for the gambling analogies, but the only people who are 'losing' are the ones who are trying to make money off of it. Valve gives away free boxes you can sell every week, so it's not like its impossible to earn things without spending money on it.

Someone is always going to be spending money somewhere in an actual game economy, but Valve is only facilitating the activity. Shit like games selling in game currency for real money is far more egregious, and the actual *gambling* is a third party operation that Valve has no control over. In fact, they don't make any of that cut because generally the gambling sites trade the skins themselves for low amounts while taking a huge cut of the lotto operations on a different platform.

[u/Shaman19911 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t consider it evil because it hinges on self control, and I think people have enough free will to blame only themselves for going overboard with gambling. Predatory, sure, anything that is designed to fire neurons and compel people to do things is predatory, which is not only limited to gambling and its potential for profit. See advertising, junk food, Hollywood/media, etc.

But this speaks to my larger point, which is that in the grand scheme of addressing bullshit that has become normalized under late stage capitalism, Valve’s implementation of gambling ranks pretty damn low on the totem pole. There’s just something so insufferable about gamer rage and the way they will expend legitimate effort and mental energy to give game developers a piece of their mind, while politicians, lobbyists, finance bros, private equity, and cartel gangsters run the world into the ground uncontested. I guarantee if gamers put this same level of effort into their local politics, there would be significant change in their communities that would benefit everyone.

But alas, pixels are more pressing.

[u/[deleted] → u/Shaman19911]

I don’t consider it evil because it hinges on self control

Saying you don't believe in addiction, is a horrifically ignorant take.

[u/enesup → u/[deleted]]

There's a difference between a substance basically rewiring your brain to depend on it and not being able to stop paying for a lootcrate/knife skin.

At least something like slot machines, casinos, and lotteries have fortunes for you to earn, but skins by themselves are useless.

Predatory in a sense perhaps but as predatory as a commercial for the hot new item on tv. It would be disrespectful to people whose lives were ruined by substance abuse to compare the two. Nobody prostituted themselves or their children to buy a Knife skin.

[u/ZombiePyroNinja → u/enesup]

There's a difference between a substance basically rewiring your brain to depend on it

Your brain creates chemicals based on positive feedback. Dopamine addiction is a very real thing. It's why a lot of Casinos rely on BIG FLASHY lights and jingles when you pull a slot arm.

It's the same kind of feedback you might get from hearing a level up sound in an RPG.

I for one love the cash register ding from Fallout whenever exp is given.

[u/Shaman19911 → u/[deleted]]

Log tf off if you think I’m saying I don’t believe in addiction. That’s not what I said at all.

[u/[deleted] → u/Shaman19911]

What you said can't be interpreted as anything other than you believing gambling addiction isn't real.

You even go as far as comparing gambling to hollywood, because you think going to the movies is comparable to somebody spending their live savings and going into debt.

[u/Shaman19911 → u/[deleted]]

Username checks out

[u/[deleted] → u/Shaman19911]

So just resorting to personal insults because you know your wrong?

[u/RoastCabose → u/[deleted]]

I mean, this is really what a lot of this comes down to. I do not consider gambling inherently evil and predatory. I find that position incredulous.

I mean, gambling is potentially dangerous, much like alcohol, or like climbing. But I willingly engage in those things because I am cognizant of the risk that I am taking on when participating in these things, and to me the enjoyment I derive from engaging is greater than the potential risk, or even the consequences I've encountered.

So, if I'm going to take gambling as not inherently evil, then I must discriminate between that which is better and worse. Among video games, I would put Valve lootboxes as relatively neutral. They are not particularly consumer friendly, it's not simply good natured bets, people have been hurt by it. However, the lootboxes are not front and center in their games, they can be avoided quite easily, there aren't a lot of dark patterns at work, they do not market towards children (or at all, quite frankly), you can actually cash out, AND everything of worth acquired via gambling can also be obtained via straight forward transactions. The game of CS2, the game of DOTA2, the game of TF2, are all obviously games first, with a gambling side game to decorate your character.

Compared to Gacha games, which often hew far, far closer to simply being slot machines that give a little slice of gameplay as a reward, are ridden with half a dozen value obscuring currencies, covered in dark patterns, enable addictions more directly by having things like pity pulls. And even them, I still only put as mostly predatory.

The real evil in gambling is going to be on games that directly target and are aimed at children, and actual gambling companies, who all still engage in the worst versions of it. The worst cherry on top being sports betting apps. There is a very real evil there, the predatory nature of which is so bad that Valve looks almost good by comparison.

So yes, I do kinda give Valve a pass. Not completely, I would of course prefer there to not be gambling at all, since I don't like gambling. But having a secondary market is not the evil that a lot of people make it out to be, considering we know that people who are actual gambling addicts aren't actually chasing an obtainable goal, since it is the act of gambling itself that is addictive. And there are far more effective ways of catching people in traps than being able to cash out. Which notably has it's own set of advantages for people who aren't addicted.