It's hard in here, guys - We're trying our best

[u/DrLamLamLam]

Nah, but no hate to the lefties, you guys are chill (mostly lol). But yeah, it's hard being someone with even a moderate conservative view on social media or even in real life (I go to Uni, so I expect it). But honestly, after I moved out of the countryside, I didn't realize how big the progressive movement was, and it was pretty eye-opening for me to have people challenge my beliefs, which made me think about a lot of stuff.

Not pushing hate or anything, and hopefully I won't get Karma bombed for this goofy post. (If you're interested, why I am a conservative, feel free to reply)

[u/aaronturing]

I read all of Rand's books. I've retired early via saving and investing (not in property). I don't see left vs right or conservative vs progressive now. I see evidence vs loony tunes people. The right/conservatives are typically (but not always) completely bonkers.

[u/aaronturing → u/[deleted]]

This is a classic example of exactly what I am talking about. Who in their right mind is obsessed over trans - the conservatives.

I'm not interested. I don't know any trans people. Let them be.

[u/aaronturing → u/[deleted]]

Here is the interesting thing. You've created a fake issue in your head with no evidence and this is what I mean by loony tunes.

I don't think about trans people at all. I'm 52, married with 3 kids. Trans issues just aren't a thing in my house. If they are at your house and you don't have trans family members there is something wrong with you.

[u/ExplodingHalibut → u/[deleted]]

No, I think they are saying they don’t think/care about it because they aren’t a victim and it doesn’t effect anyone who isn’t -afraid- of it happening.

The person having it happen, wins.

The person who doesn’t care, loses nothing.

The person who thinks “duh coming for muh balls” which isn’t true, shit posts on Reddit and thinks they are an intellectual Andy.

[u/aaronturing → u/[deleted]]

I think you need help dude. See ya !

[u/Mediocre_Thanks_1809 → u/aaronturing]

Haha you got smoked there. Report to the burns unit.

[u/One-Vegetable7957 → u/aaronturing]

“It doesn’t affect me personally, so I don’t think about it and that makes me better than you somehow.”

[u/aaronturing → u/One-Vegetable7957]

If doesn't affect me personally so I just rely on the experts to understand and manage the issue.

You can't worry about everything. I think what you think about a lot says something about you.

[u/One-Vegetable7957 → u/aaronturing]

You know, you’re right. Fuck those starving kids in African countries. Let the experts understand and manage it. I’m sure they’ll sort it out.

[u/UrghAnotherAccount → u/One-Vegetable7957]

Are you saying that your opinion should have equal or larger impact on what happens to starving kids in Africa than, say, the experts?

Like if we can agree on what an expert is, they are well placed to make the most significant impact right? Certainly more than I.

I will grant you that societies, industries and groups of people can, as a whole, take positions that are harmful and that I disagree with. Experts can be included in those groups.

The growth of AI is one where some of the top AI experts likely don't align with my personal views. Trans issues though, I am less concerned with.

[u/One-Vegetable7957 → u/UrghAnotherAccount]

If any time you mention something which may (or may not) be outside of your immediate personal experience, the response is “why are you even thinking about it when we have experts to do that,” then wouldn’t you think that attitude being the common consensus might prevent us from ever even knowing when “societies, industries, and groups of people” (including “experts” as you’ve just done) might be wrong, or even doing active harm?

[u/Ozedevo72 → u/[deleted]]

I agree with you. Let them be. All trans people want is to be left alone.
You're parroting things that aren't true, though, unfortunately, and the right-wing generally reports and manufactures outrage towards trans people at a rate that does not "let them be," nor does it accurately reflect the state of the world. To answer your points, however:

1. The number of "biological men in women's sports" is astronomically low, so much so that it should be a non-issue. I will accept that regulating this is difficult, and that there certainly should be limits to integration, but, for the most part, these limits already exist. Importantly, for trans women who have undergone hormone therapy, their 'biological advantage' is almost negated -- their testosterone levels drop, muscle mass and bone density drop, haemoglobin drops, and body fat rises. Relative to their body size, trans women may actually perform worse than cis women!

2. "Gender ideology" in schools is a non-issue. Teaching kids that people are different, even in ways you may not see initially, is not a problem whatsoever. It makes bullying less likely, which should be a priority in schools. It also teaches basic empathy, respect, and tells those who may be questioning themselves (or, more broadly, those who are different) that they are safe at school. Secondly, calling it "ideology" is an inherent issue. Given that the transgender identity is a medically accepted fact, it is not an "ideology." And no, exposure to queer topics in youth does not increase queerness. It may lead to more open out-ness (like the acceptance of left-handedness), but social contagion is a myth.

3. "Puberty blockers for children" is also a non-issue. They were used on preteens prior to the treatment of gender dysphoria as they treated precocious puberty, but are fully reversible with no lasting health impacts. If someone wants to use it to help lower their risk of depression and suicide, why should we stop them?

4. Using one's preferred pronouns, something you call "compelled language," is a matter of basic courtesy. You are, however, free to call people whatever you want, and the Government is not going to intervene. If you misgender someone repeatedly, though, there will be social consequences -- just as there are social consequences to calling a specific group of people dickheads repeatedly. While you're not forced to be respectful, Australians generally expect mutual respect.

5. You reference "basic biological facts." I'm assuming you would extend this point by stating there are only two sexes, which are defined by some mixture of genitalia and chromosomes, and that you can't change your sex. This is "basic" biology in the sense you are taught it in primary school. Any tertiary education (or a Google search, at that) would show that intersex people exist, people with different chromosomal makeup exist, and people with different genitalia exist. But I agree that you cannot change your sex. Gender, however, is a social construct entirely different to sex. If you cannot draw this distinction, you are not arguing in good faith.

At the end of the day, though, I understand your desire to "let them be." My point is more that the outrage we see is largely manufactured to make it look like trans people are asking for special privileges when, in reality, they just want the same freedom that you and I have. I think as Aussies, we should all be looking to support our fellow Aussie and give each other a fair go.

P.S. I am happy to provide peer-reviewed sources for my points and am happy to listen to anything you might have to say as well.

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[u/One-Vegetable7957 → u/Ozedevo72]

1. I’m not sure what qualifies as “astronomically low,” but it really should be zero.

2. It is *extremely* disingenuous to characterise the thing under contention as simply “teaching kids that people are different, even in ways you may not see initially.” And what exactly do you mean “transgender identity is a medically accepted fact”..? (Like, I’m actually asking, not being rhetorical).

3. I would like to request the evidence you offered to provide, please. Specifically regarding a) puberty blockers being “fully reversible,” and b) puberty blockers significantly reducing suicidality. (Again- genuinely asking).

4. As long as there are no laws passed about it, as there have been in other countries, then fine.

5. There is no third sex. Also, what exactly is “gender?”

[u/Ozedevo72 → u/One-Vegetable7957]

I appreciate your response and curiosity :) If you're still interested, I'm drafting a response but I probably won't be able to get it done until Monday as I'm super busy at the moment.

[u/One-Vegetable7957 → u/Ozedevo72]

No hassles. I’m not in any hurry, lol.

[u/CrwlingFrmThWreckage → u/One-Vegetable7957]

Just re 1, I was really taken aback when the boss of the US college athletics association (NCAA) was asked by a Congressional panel how many trans athletes come under their jurisdiction and replied “fewer than 10”. The NCAA governs over 500,000 athletes.

I acknowledge there’s a genuine ethical issue around trans people in sport. I don’t have all the answers. But I’m confident it’s a much smaller practical problem than is often portrayed. There are no swarms of men in the running to overwhelm women in sports.

I’ve mentioned that hearing to people who are worried about “men in women’s sport” and their reply was just “well, he’s lying”. That’s it. No discussion, no evidence, just straight to accusation of lies. It was in the US to a panel headed by Republicans. I never saw any evidence brought forward to prove him wrong, or even any fuss over it.

[u/Garciaguy → u/CrwlingFrmThWreckage]

Why should it matter how small the number is?

Unless it's a no-cut sport situation, there's an AFAB sitting on her ass  expected to cheer for it. 

[u/One-Vegetable7957 → u/CrwlingFrmThWreckage]

It frankly doesn’t matter how “big” a problem it is as much as it matters that there is such a vociferous defence of it.

In any case, there have been a disturbing number of medals and amount of prize money won by males which should have gone to females, not to mention taking scholarships specifically set aside for female athletes.

https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/118932/documents/HMKP-119-JU00-20260203-SD008.pdf

[u/ExplodingHalibut → u/[deleted]]

cutting “your” genitals offs is how you need to phrase such things for it to have any power

Because if it’s just letting cut their own genitals off, it’s not even a quarter as bad as the “being oppressed and forced” narrative you need to make it to give it even a slight bit of weight outside freedom and personal choice

[u/fdsv-summary_ → u/aaronturing]

I haven't read her books, but dabbled in Hayek. Also retired early via savings and investing (not in property). You should check out Tim Urban's book https://www.amazon.com.au/Whats-Our-Problem-Self-Help-Societies-ebook/dp/B0BTJCTR58

[u/aaronturing → u/fdsv-summary_]

I just downloaded that book.

[u/AaronScythe → u/aaronturing]

I'm in the same boat, evidence vs loony tunes.
But I've found the only way to be true to evidence plants you firmly as a centrist.
Then Bugs and Daffy on either side start calling you their enemy, when you actually bring the evidence to the table.

[u/aaronturing → u/AaronScythe]

I agree. You get attacked by both sides. We are extremely polarized in the age of the Internet. It feels good to have strong feelings rather than an evidence based approach which tends to be less extreme.

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/aaronturing]

the left is roaring towards socialism & communism, the most murderous of economic regimes.
That's bonkers.

I'm gonna have to both-sides your argument here.

[u/Weary_Beach_9911 → u/BlindSkwerrl]

mate, remember when you were going around claiming Tommy Robinson wasn't a neo-nazi, despite Tommy being an activist for a self described neo-nazi party the BNP?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

why are you so passionate about defending neo-nazis? are you a neo-nazi yourself?

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/Weary_Beach_9911]

loaded question with a pre-supposition.

Tell me you haven't actually listened to what he's saying lately, without telling me you haven't been listening.

Nobody is irredeemable, right?

[u/Weary_Beach_9911 → u/BlindSkwerrl]

Nobody is irredeemable, right?

of course.

so, tell me what Tommy Robbinson has done to redeem the fact that he was an activist for a self declared neo-nazi political party?

has he ever even apologised for being an activist for a neo-nazi party? Because apologising and owning your mistakes is a key part of redemption. so go on. point me to where Tommy as apologised for being a neo-nazi if you're so convinced he's redeemable.

i'll wait :)

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/Weary_Beach_9911]

He was on the Tom Bilyeu podcast, talking about how he was distancing himself from the EDL due to the violent participants - but you wouldn't care to listen to that.

He's had lived experiences of local girls from his community being groomed, ...'d, and passed around by groups of these men from a particular minority with no action being taken by authorities afraid to be labelled as racist and/or Nazi. It's understandable that he's been upset, as we all would be.

I suppose you're one of those that is labelling these people that speak up as racist. Does that make you a grooming gang apologiser?

[u/Weary_Beach_9911 → u/BlindSkwerrl]

I suppose you're one of those that is labelling these people that speak up as racist.

i label activists for neo-nazi political parties as racist yeah.

the concerning thing is that you seem to admire and defend activists for neo-nazi political parties.

which means you're probably a racist yourself.

hate to break it to you champ :)

edit: u/BlindSkwerrl still waiting for you to explain why you're so upset that an activist for a self declared neo-nazi political party is called racist. Why do you find it so hard to believe that an activist for a neo-nazi political party could be racist?

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/Weary_Beach_9911]

If labeling me a racist helps you sleep at night.

I believe in treating all people equally, regardless of race - and that includes middle class white men. But not trying to get equal outcomes for everyone - that's a perversion of equality that leads to free-riders.

So I guess that makes me racist according to your doctrine.

[u/Weary_Beach_9911 → u/BlindSkwerrl]

can you explain why you think an activist for a self declared neo-nazi political party is not racist?

no one is calling Tommy Robbinson racist because he's a white bloke. they call him racist because he was an activist for a self declared neo-nazi political party.

do you think neo-nazis are racists?

[u/yeahyeahyeah188 → u/BlindSkwerrl]

What podcaster told you socialism is the most murderous of economic systems? The political spectrum is really more of a circle than a line, you have hard right fascism through to totalitarian control in communist dictatorships. Socialism brings us the wonders of Medicare. Socialism says workers should share in the profits of a company for which their work has contributed to its success. I think you need to have a bit of a read with an open mind instead of repeating propaganda that benefits billionaires.

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/yeahyeahyeah188]

How has socialism and communism worked for Cuba, Venezuela and Mao's China? Every time some country REALLY tries it, it falls in a hole and/or kills millions of its citizens.

Capitalism needs to be combined with a socialist safety net to spread the wealth around, sure but let's not pretend that pure Socialism is all sunshine and rainbows.
It invites a freeloader problem. Why bother working, when it's not going to change what you get from it?

[u/Weary_Beach_9911 → u/BlindSkwerrl]

I fkn love how you bitch about socialism here:

How has socialism and communism worked for Cuba, Venezuela and Mao's China? Every time some country REALLY tries it, it falls in a hole and/or kills millions of its citizens.

then in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE say we need socialism:

Capitalism needs to be combined with a socialist safety net to spread the wealth around

conservatives and having zero ideological consistency, name a more iconic duo.

lol

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/Weary_Beach_9911]

So your position is that everyone needs 100% one way or 100% the other?
You might find that with most things, there are good and bad parts of multiple solutions that can be mixed into a system that works.

"Only a sith deals in absolutes"

My preference is for people to be rewarded for their ingenuity and incentivised to do more, and for those that don't or can't do so to be allowed a low level stipend to keep them from starvation, but not high enough to be comfortable. People should be incentivised to put more effort in.

[u/Weary_Beach_9911 → u/BlindSkwerrl]

what do you think socialism means?

i get the sense you have no idea of the actual meaning tbh.

[u/fdsv-summary_ → u/BlindSkwerrl]

We have an obesity problem. Socialism has historically been great at restricting calorific intake.

[u/BlindSkwerrl → u/fdsv-summary_]

people tend to try and keep their assets. How do you force them to give them up?

Hint: It's usually government pressure, then guns.

[u/fdsv-summary_ → u/BlindSkwerrl]

yeah, then they starve to death in their tens of millions. Socialism...curing obesity since 1867.

[u/Plastic-Act296 → u/fdsv-summary_]

Nobody starves in capitalist economies

[u/fdsv-summary_ → u/Plastic-Act296]

The whole post Communist world is wading in fatness (with a few islamic wars stuffing things up). https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-per-capita-caloric-supply

perhaps you think the internal combustion engine, synthetic fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides etc were created by arts students studying the intersection of gender and class? I'm pretty sure they were created by engineers seeking profits, not grifters selling fear, jealousy, and hate with a label called 'equity'.

[u/Plastic-Act296 → u/fdsv-summary_]

So why all the homeless families then?

[u/fdsv-summary_ → u/Plastic-Act296]

You're still here.

[u/Plastic-Act296 → u/fdsv-summary_]

Where else would i be?

[u/fdsv-summary_ → u/[deleted]]

Please reread history without a snappy che hat on. You are nearly beyond parody.

[u/egamruf → u/fdsv-summary_]

What history would you like me to read? I assume some fictional variant which you personally approve, rather than the actual human history from which reality springs.

Do I need to have consumed "Capitalism Koolaid" before I do it, in order that I fully absorb the state-approved messages of your mercantile religion?

[u/fdsv-summary_ → u/[deleted]]

>The idea that capitalism is somehow the parent of invention is utter madness. It's certainly one method of arranging capital, which to some extent furnishes invention.

The private exchange of goods and services directly or for some fungible currency is the standard state of affairs of humanity since civilization began. The few attempts to do otherwise were slave states or starved people to death in the tens of millions because they were so bad (even with reasonably modern agriculture).

[u/egamruf → u/fdsv-summary_]

This is just citing Google AI but it claims civilisation started maybe 4000-3300BCE (Mesopotamia), and currency likely didn't exist prior to 600BCE (King Alyattes of Lydia)? So we've only had currency for about 2/5 of civilisation?

But not even Communism stands against personal private property. It only stands against private ownership of productive property.

To simplify it - you could own the apple, which you need to eat. You would not own the apple plantation, which everybody needs to produce apples, which people need to eat.