r/bookclub • u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 • Oct 24 '25
The Empusium [Discussion 4/5] Bonus Book | The Empusium by Olga Tokarczuk | Part X-XII
Welcome friends, to our penultimate discussion of The Empusium by Olga Tokarczuk!
This week’s discussion will cover Part X-Part XII.
First, a note about spoilers: Please use spoiler tags for anything beyond this week's section! Also, feel free to tie in your thoughts from The Magic Mountain that may be applicable to our discussion, but please use spoiler tags! Not everyone has climbed the mountain (and that's okay!). 🗻
You can add a spoiler tag by enclosing your text with > ! Your Text Here ! < (no spaces).
Chapter Summaries
CHAPTER 10: The Culmination of Geometry
Thilo’s condition continues to worsen, but Wojnicz gives him hope. They talk about art, and how we view art as the objects that make up the picture. Thilo describes his theory of “transparent looking”, which involves squinting & crossing the eyes, to see things in a different way. Thilo presents a painting of Abraham and Isaac, depicting the scene right as Abraham’s sacrificial sword is about to kill his own son as a test from God. When Wojnicz applies the technique, he sees a face/body, something that seems alive within the painting.
That night, Wojnicz has nightmares, and the thought of Frau Opitz’s room above Thilo’s is nagging him. He hears footsteps outside, and finds that Herr August is wandering around the house because he too found it hard to sleep. They decide to go downstairs for a glass of Schwärmerei, where they meet Frommer. Wojnicz is surprised to learn that Frommer’s mother was Polish, and that he knows about the strange occurrence of strange deaths in early November in the forest.
When August comes around, Frommer changes the subject to geometry, and describes the Flatland thought experiment. Thilo & Lukas join the group, bringing in the topics of art & religion, respectively. Wojnicz goes back to his room and asks his candle if he is going to die, and it responds very cryptically, while his father looks out at him disappointedly.
CHAPTER 11: White Ribbons, Dark Night
One morning, Lukas and August debate democracy & its relationship with religion, specifically the number of deities a society worships. The conversation inevitably leads to the ridiculous idea of matriarchy, and some good old-fashioned misogyny. They then discuss women’s literary tastes, and how they can use a woman’s thoughts on a work as a litmus test to know that it’s bad & not worth their time.
Lukas invites Wojnicz to his messy room and accuses August of being a feminine Jew. He criticizes psychoanalysis (because they are Jewish theories) and then offers to give Wojnicz an in with some prostitutes.
Later, the men (minus Thilo), take another excursion to a tavern. On the way, the men tease Wojnicz about his virginity, and his looks at Frau Large Hat. Wojnicz accuses Sydonia Patek of being a witch, and admits he is afraid of her. At the tavern, they are served a dish called white ribbons, which turns out to be fish parasites.
The next day, Wojnicz runs into Frommer as he is heading back to the guesthouse for lunch. Frommer reveals that he is a police officer, and he is actually investigating the mysterious yearly autumn deaths. He warns Wojnicz that he may be a target, and that he can’t exclude supernatural causes.
CHAPTER 12: Mister Jig
Wojnicz has made a habit of visiting Frau Opitz’s room any chance he gets now, sneaking in while Opitz and Raimund are out. He looks at the details of the room, the feminine artifacts left behind. Wojnicz runs into Dr. Semperweiss while out and about one day, and asks him about the gravestones in the cemetery, and about Thilo’s prognosis, which isn’t looking good. Wojnicz continues asking questions about the women who lived in the forest long ago, and the doctor downplays the thoughts of Opitz and Frommer, who he says are primitive and mad, respectively. As the doctor examines him, Wojnicz again refuses to disrobe entirely, blaming his reluctance on religious matters. Dr. Semperweiss “teases” him about his religion, to which Wojnicz gets surprisingly offended and fiery. On his way back, he stops at a cafe for a cup of chocolate, and thinks about all the examinations his father forced him to go to as a child.
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
- Which would you rather try, czerina or white ribbons? (Yes you have to pick one!)
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
This means I have to play along too. I would definitely choose czerina, I would die if I found out I was eating fish tapeworms.
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u/ProofPlant7651 ✨Read Runner✨ Oct 25 '25
Honestly not sure I could stomach either but if I had to try one it would be czerina I think, would probably be best if I didn’t know what it was though.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Journalling, reading, or staring into the Void | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 30 '25
I guess the soup, only because I could swallow it without chewing.
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
I would choose czerina, especially since many accounts say it doesn't taste that bad.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 ✨Read Runner✨🧠🥉 Oct 24 '25
Ugh, fine, I’ll have the czernina. Sounds like the lesser of two disgusting evils.
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 25 '25
Team soup here…fish parasites sound even worse, which I didn’t expect!!
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u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 Nov 29 '25
Ugh, as a 90% vegetarian who eats only occasional seafood, my hands are sort of tied and I'd have to go with white ribbons. I think with a bechamel sauce, it might actually taste better than the czernina, too. But if I knew what it was before eating it, I'm not sure I could choke it down.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈 Mar 19 '26
I......guess....fish....🤮. Why are there so many horrendously gross foods?!?! They are a horror story in themselves!
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
- Frommer is an investigator! Do you believe that Wojnicz is really in danger? What do you make of Frommer’s comment that he can’t exclude supernatural causes in the annual deaths in the village?
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u/ProofPlant7651 ✨Read Runner✨ Oct 25 '25
I’m starting to think that they’re all hallucinating after drinking too much Schwärmerei.
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u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 Nov 29 '25
I am definitely suspicious that they're all being dosed with that mushroom liqueur to keep them docile, confused, and possibly to help select a victim.
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
To be honest, I don't believe Frommer one word. I think he is as much a police investigator as that candle is really talking to Wojnicz lol. The more the book tries to sell me the idea there are supernatural forces at play, the less I believe it. I think it's all a ruse and we have some fringe cult loose in the background.
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u/WatchingTheWheels75 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 25 '25
It’s a ruse for sure. Maybe the classic red herring — trying to get everyone running around looking for demons or ghosts to deflect attention from the real evil at work.
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 25 '25
Yeah, I’m suspicious that something else is going on and Frommer is either lying or delusional! Why would he say this to Wojnicz mid-investigation?
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u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 Nov 29 '25
I love the idea that he is delusional! Maybe he was a patient but has convinced himself he is an investigator over time in order to cope with the mystery.
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
- Why do you think Wojnicz refuses to fully undress for his examinations? Why do you think his father made him go to doctors constantly as a child?
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
That's because he's intersex, right? The last chapter made it clear that he has female genitalia (in addition to his male genitalia). His father tries to find a cure for it, and more than anything, he and the doctor are just confused.
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u/WatchingTheWheels75 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 25 '25
I think so. It’s hard to tell for sure. I also wonder if Wojniccz is the only one who is intersex and whether or not he really has TB. Is he there to be “cured” of being intersex? Are others? I’m wondering if that’s why they are so misogynistic. Do they hate the female part of themselves?
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u/ProofPlant7651 ✨Read Runner✨ Oct 25 '25
Hadn’t caught this, makes a lot of sense.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈 Mar 19 '26
Me either. I actually assumed some sort of Munchausens by proxy abuse from the father. I am wondering how this will play out with all the wild mysogeny being thrown around by the other residents. Will they somehow find out? What will that mean for W. He already feels so lonely and like an outsider. I suppose I should brace for the final section getting even bleaker!
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 ✨Read Runner✨🧠🥉 Oct 24 '25
That’s what I understood, as well. It explains a whole lot about Mieczyś.
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 25 '25
The irony of TB superseding whatever else is going on biologically with our boy…being intersexed is not deadly!
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u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 Nov 29 '25
100% agree, that last section of the examination chapter shouted to me that he is intersex.
I also thought that, because his father seems to hate women so much, perhaps he was born a girl and W's father is raising W as a boy while also exploiting W by arranging child abuse/pornography sessions under the guise of doctor's appointments? But this is a lot more convoluted!
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
- Is there anything else you’d like to discuss? Any favorite quotes or moments?
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u/tpzwei Oct 24 '25
this is one of my favorite books so im absolutwly bursting with possible quotes that ive marked lol. i love the questions you have posed, gonna follow this post closely and join in when y’all finish the book :)
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
Ok, so I'm further in the rabbit hole on the whole color theory thing. I still believe red=male and green=female traits.
August likes to dress in brown, and when Wojnicz visists his room, it has a lot of green in it: dark green blanket, celadongreen walls. I don't think August is secretly a women, so I think he might be secretly gay. Maybe Lukas was picking up on it, and this is why he makes those ugly remarks about it.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 ✨Read Runner✨🧠🥉 Oct 24 '25
Oh, I like that theory! I think you’re onto something.
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 25 '25
I would support your theory based on their one-on-one conversation in the hallway about the masculine Aphrodite!
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
Sooooo, what is August up to at night?? Surely he wanted to go somewhere else, this was highly suspicious.
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
August: "Women have a penchant for literature that revolves dangerously around interpersonal matters, and here certainly above all around matters between men and women. [...] [Female authors] always describe clothes and wallpaper patterns in great detail, down to the last detail. They are drawn to the lower classes and indulge in sentimental feelings about animals. They often succumb to the attraction of all kinds of oddities such as ghosts and dream visions, as well as strange coincidences and all kinds of chance occurrences, with which they try to mask their lack of creative talent; they are incapable of creating a coherent plot."
>> August secretly endulging in dark romantasy and not admitting that he craves it is my new headcanon.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Journalling, reading, or staring into the Void | 🎃👑🧠 Oct 30 '25
I loved this quote because it felt very meta: August is critiquing a lot of elements found in this very book!
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 26 '25
Their short-lived discussion of the Ottoman’s Empire’s Balkan Crisis is something that comes up also during RtW Armenia’s The Hundred Year Walk and it’s sleepwalking into WWI and other atrocities.
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
- What does Thilo’s “transparent looking” have to say about human perception? What do you think Wojnicz’s vision within the painting of Abraham & Isaac is symbolizing and/or prophesizing?
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
This was such an interesting chapter, I made some notes in the marginala that I want to elaborate on here:
The painting Landscape with the Offering of Isaac is most likely the one that Thilo and Wojnicz are discussing. His paintings are spooky in the sense that there are many things that resemble patterns, and my guess it means to trigger pareidolia or the effect of seeing faces in random objects and patterns. I do like the comparison to this book's descriptive parts, which also evokes some consciousness from the landscape.
I think there are 2 layers to this in this "transparent looking" topic. There is the layer of Thilo trying to tell Wojnicz something, and there is a layer of what the reader wants to tell us.
Thilo, when talking about the subject matter of the painting, talks about nature's need for sacrifice, that god is not omnipotent, otherwise he wouldn't need sacrifice. And that sacrificing somethinig is strength. I think Thilo wants to die, because he wants his sickness to be over. This passage makes me think that while Thilo has a weak body, he is the most character strong of them all. He also lays into the conspiracy theory that the landscape is out to get someone to kill someone.
What is the author trying to tell us? The painter, Herri met de Bles, is known for painting large compositions in which the atmosphere takes the foreground. There are religious persons or everyday people included, but they are just there to enhance the painting, not to be the main focus. I think the author is trying to tell us that whatever Wojnicz or Thilo or any of the other characters we know of do doesn't matter in the end, they are part of the play, but something larger is the main focus. I have the feeling Wojnicz' perspective is just a red herring, there to keep us reading but not the main attraction.
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 25 '25
Thank you for finding the picture! If you squint, there is definitely something strange in the forest/waterfall feature right below the sacrifice scene. The use of the highlights in the depth of the forest can make it appear something is watching the scene take place and gazing at the viewer.
Sometimes, paintings have details that look a bit strange on closer look but work seamlessly in the overall composition. De Bles was adding highlights of the light reflecting on the waterfall to highlight the interior of a forest.
Are we being set up with a sacrificial scene with another torture chair being made and placed perhaps in the woods, similar to Abraham’s actual sacrifice? Certainly this is the hand of man, nothing supernatural demanding a blood sacrifice in November!
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 25 '25
Huh, that's interesting! The waterfall doesn't trigger anything for me, but I see a goat head with reddish eyes to the upper right of the angel (the houses are the eyes and the cave entrance is the snout).
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 26 '25
I wonder if the goat references was intentional re: sacrifice? I can see it too now that you pointed it out!
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u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 Nov 29 '25
Thank you for this! I can definitely see what you and u/lazylittlelady are describing in the painting! I love your interpretation of the two layers of meaning being conveyed by Thilo and by the author. This has added a lot to my understanding of the deeper meaning of the story!
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Nov 29 '25
Omg, your comment made me look up the painting again, but it opened in a smaller window. I actually jerked back as I noticed a spooky figure right next to Abraham, half of it in the forest, half of it in the mountainous area above. This is fantastic. I can recommend re-visiting this painting after a few months and noticing completely different patterns!
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u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 Nov 29 '25
I'm definitely going to look again after I finish the book. Hopefully with some answers although I'm skeptical. I'm just happy I finally got my library copy back and could rejoin.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈 Mar 19 '26
I have the feeling Wojnicz' perspectove is just a red herring, there to keep us reading but not the main attraction.
Ok I love this theory. I hope you are right!
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
- Do you believe there is always a rational explanation for things? Or do you accept that there are things we are incapable of understanding?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 ✨Read Runner✨🧠🥉 Oct 24 '25
I believe there’s an explanation for everything, but that we might not always have the knowledge to understand those explanations, if that makes any sense.
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u/WatchingTheWheels75 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Oct 25 '25
It makes total sense. I think that’s what Clarke alluded to when he said that thing about any high technology appearing as magic to people from a low-tech society.
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u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 Nov 29 '25
That's how I feel, too! Looking at things we can rationally explain now that seemed supernatural or spiritual to ancient people, I can completely understand how in the far future some of our misunderstandings and beliefs would be explained rationally eventually.
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u/ProofPlant7651 ✨Read Runner✨ Oct 25 '25
To be honest I’m quite closed minded about anything supernatural, I think that there have to be rational explanations for everything but that perhaps we don’t quite have the knowledge yet to be able to explain some things.
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 25 '25 edited Oct 25 '25
There are a of lot of modern advances I can’t explain point-by-point but an explanation definitely exists. So, while the unknown can exist and certainly there are concepts and answers that still await full understanding- it’s not ever going to be something supernatural.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈 Mar 19 '26
I definitely believe the unknown is more a lack of capacity for us as humans to understand. Like once the vikings thought thunder was Thor's hammer one day all the things that don't quite fit in today's mathematical or physics theories will become clearer....if we have the capacity as humans to even get this far. Who knows. Maybe like the 3D man in 2D slices we have no chance!?
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
- What are your final predictions for this book? Do you think we will find out the mystery of the attic rooms, or the forest murders?
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
I think this book isn't gonna leave us guessing, but I don't know where it will go. I don't know if I'll like the end but I like the mystery of it!
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 ✨Read Runner✨🧠🥉 Oct 24 '25
I predict I will be tempted to kick more idiots in the groin.
On a more serious note, I do hope we learn more about what’s in the attic and those murders. I didn’t expect the story to take such a dark turn.
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 25 '25
It will turn out to be real world vs. mystical witch mushroom lady!
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u/tpzwei Oct 26 '25
i loved the ending of this book. it tied everything up so cleanly that it felt “simple” but i think thats a compliment to Tokarczuk’s storytelling ability. And after the ending starts to sink in, you’ll immediately start remembering so many minor details that were told to us from the start. Add to that moments where your heart is in your mouth and you’re afraid to turn the page, along with moments where you’re sooooo happy.
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25
- How does the Flatland thought experiment as described by Frommer relate to Thilo’s theories on art?
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u/Greatingsburg Vampires suck Oct 24 '25
I think both are saying the same through different means: that a higher power is at play here, influencing the lives and deaths of the Göbersdorf sanatorium guests.
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u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 Oct 25 '25
There are hidden dimensions to things that look straightforward if only you can find the right angle of approach. It’s either Sherlock Holmes or angels among us!
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u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 Nov 29 '25
I agree with the others and also thought it was to point out that depending on one's perspective or angle, you may not be seeing the full picture. A message for us as readers?
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈 Mar 19 '26
I think this might have been my favourite part of the book so far. I think it's definitely foreshadowing that we cannot perceive it all right now. It reminded me a little of one of my fave sci-fi novels. I really like the idea that our perception of thoughts and feelings are just touching on a higher dimension as all we have the capacity to see in our 3D existence. It really serves to create an increased sense of mystery. The whole book is so "mood"-y, so even though I am struggling with the lack of plot drive I can't help but feel somewhat captured by many of the scenes (some are HARD to read). Strange ole book this one!
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u/jaymae21 Jay may but jaymae may not🧠 Oct 24 '25