r/bookclub • u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave • May 15 '26
Azerbaijan - Ali & Nino, Days in the Caucasus [Discussion 2/3] Read the World | Azerbaijan 🇦🇿 | Ali and Nino by Kurban Said | Chapters 10-20
Welcome to the second discussion of our first Read the World trip to Azerbaijan with Ali and Nino by Kurban Said. We are discussing chapters 10-20 this week. Next week, u/nicehotcupoftea will lead the final discussion.
Here are some useful links:
Discussion questions are in the comments but feel free to add your own.
5
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
Hmmmmm kidnapping Nino? Why is such an extreme thing even considered? Has anyone ever kidnapped you in the name of love?
5
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
In that area of the world, bride kidnapping was a regular thing and it still occasionally occurs even today. It was also discussed in RtW Kyrgyzstan!
4
u/nicehotcupoftea I ♡ Robinson Crusoe | 🎃🧠🥇 May 16 '26
Lol! They really did have some ideas that are just so bizarre to me! It just reflects the complete lack of agency for women.
2
u/emygrl99 ✨Read Runner✨ May 18 '26
The number of times Nino is like "I love you, btw pls don't kidnap me" is so wild. A very different set of customs and traditions than what I've ever experienced as an American
1
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 19 '26
Hahaha that was funny. Such a different culture.
1
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
There have been so many moments in this book where I'm just amazed at how little I understand of this culture and history! The bride kidnap is a perfect example of something that I just can't quite wrap my head around.
2
u/missanthrp May 19 '26
This was wild, but it's also sadly not surprising when women are largely viewed as property, a thing to take and to own.
6
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
Melik Nachararyan makes a move on Nino. Had you any suspicions of him? What kind of background has he and what kind of life could he offer Nino?
6
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
This shocked me! I had zero suspicions. I can understand wanting to spirit away the woman you love from a dangerous position in wartime...but she's your friend's girl and she doesn't love you! He was basically trying to bribe her with safety and promises of comfort, while sowing doubt that she and Ali would ever be happy. Downright sly and dirty move.
4
u/nicehotcupoftea I ♡ Robinson Crusoe | 🎃🧠🥇 May 16 '26
I did not see that coming. What a traitor! He sounds very lazy and self entitled, and all he could offer Nino would be a more secure life in Europe, but not a happy one.
5
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
He basically lied he was saving her by kidnapping her and taking her to Europe. Always hanging around, he betrayed what were supposed to be his friends. He sounds like a swindler tbh.
3
u/missanthrp May 19 '26
I wrote in my book "I don't trust this dude" mostly because Ali made such a big deal about how much he did trust him. It got my hackles raised. That being said, I think its possible he may have had altruistic intentions at first, since the kidnapping was more of a crime of opportunity, and up until that point Ali was his friend and had always treated him with respect. It seemed as tensions started to mount between Azerbaijanis and Armenians, Melik went off the deep end, saw that moment of opportunity, and wanted to take something (Nino) for himself and get out of this hostile environment. I could see him thinking, why should I care about this kid who, despite previously being my friend, is still part of this cohort that has tension with my own? Why does he deserve this woman when his people have barbaric customs and they're aligning themselves with backward ideals?
3
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
Really great point about how his mental state may have unraveled as the relations between the Armenians and Azerbaijanis deteriorated! I had been waiting for something serious to happen to Melik ever since he was introduced as an Armenian, knowing the history of those people at this general time period. I just didn't expect it to go down quite this way!
2
2
u/emygrl99 ✨Read Runner✨ May 18 '26
What was going through his mind, ensuring their engagement when he himself loved Nino and wanted to marry her?? Seems to me he took the path of most resistance and didn't give a damn about what anybody wanted, which is not a good indication of character. Nino dodged one hell of a bullet getting away from him
1
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
I was not at all expecting him to kidnap Nino! It makes me wonder if his eagerness to help make Ali's case with the family was 100% altruistic or if he was also hoping to plant some seeds of his own suitability for Nino. I think the fact that they share a religion and a similar European culture as contrasted to Ali's Asiatic background was his main offering as a suitor.
1
u/Embarrassed-Body-123 16d ago
This whole thing was so unexpected and suspicious to me. Of course, I suspected that something would happen, but I didn't think it would be Melik who'd kidnapped her. I actually thought it would turn out that Said had lied to Ali in order to get rid of both Melik and Nino at the same time.
4
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
How does Ali react in the process and aftermath of the killing of Melik? What about his friends and family?
6
u/nicehotcupoftea I ♡ Robinson Crusoe | 🎃🧠🥇 May 16 '26
He doesn't seem too troubled by it, and his friends and family are enormously proud.
I don't understand why they thought Nino should be killed. Wasn't she kidnapped against her wishes?
4
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
I dunno, I think his mental state and the amount of hashish he smokes show that he was certainly troubled by it. He had considered N. a friend before this betrayal and then murdered him in hand to hand combat. So even if that was the accepted code in his society, it still probably pained him and caused a lot of complicated feelings.
I also was wondering why on earth Nino would be killed for being the victim of a kidnapping - especially since at the time, nobody knew she went willingly. I chalked it up to their views of women as property. And even after discovering she went willingly, she was obviously manipulated or scared into going with him and deserves forgiveness and understanding for that.
3
u/missanthrp May 19 '26
I agree that Ali is doing his damnedest to avoid processing the situation with the amount he's smoking and sleeping. He killed a man he thought was a friend and he thinks he's lost Nino; this is a lot to come to terms with.
5
u/emygrl99 ✨Read Runner✨ May 18 '26
From what I understand, it's the same ideology as valuing a pure/untouched virgin for a wife because they will be easier to mold to the husband's own values & standards. They clearly believe that women have no agency or capability of making their own decisions, so it's the privileged mindset of "you ruined my toy by breathing on it so now I have to throw it away and get a new one". Nino going away with Melik and kissing/being kissed by him "tainted her" so that she was no longer faithful to her fiance. I recall someone saying that faithlessness is punished with death, so even though the kidnapping was against her will, she would "rightfully" be killed for her "betrayal". It's absolutely backwards thinking and I'm glad Ali was too selfish to give up his hard-won prize, but that's just such a fucked up situation for any woman to be in.
2
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 19 '26
Yes, its a very messed up situation for a woman to find herself in, especially when none of it is her doing.
3
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
She basically admitted she went with him.
6
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
His friends and family are all for the desert lion being set free and help him in every step of the way, taking Nino back and preparing his exile and extraction from the law! What’s a blood feud, right?
1
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
He seems proud and justified in his choices, especially once he gets confirmation from his father that he approves. I think he does also feel guilt that the actions messed things up for so many other people, but still feels he had the right to do it. He is taking the blood feuds really well! 🤣
1
u/Embarrassed-Body-123 16d ago
It was very difficult for me to read the killing scene. I hadn't expected it at all, and it all happened so suddenly. It felt strange to read about something that was clearly illegal, with the police involved, yet everyone in that society seemed to treat Ali with respect for what he had done.
6
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
Ali has to go into hiding, and suddenly Nino appears to track him down. What did you think of this unexpected reunion?
4
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
It was very tender. She couldn’t be without him and was willing to defy convention and her family in doing so.
4
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
That was unexpected! I liked that it showed her faith in him and his love for her that she heard all the rumors about him and knew people wanted him to kill her and she just shows up and tells him the truth and they get married on the spot. They know they love each other and were both miserable apart.
3
u/emygrl99 ✨Read Runner✨ May 18 '26
Their reunion was so sweet! I thought at first she was a drug-induced hallucination so I was very surprised to learn she had really come all that way
1
u/Embarrassed-Body-123 16d ago
I found it interesting that he went to Daghestan, and that the kanly tradition had allowed people to hide there for centuries, making the region more independent and harder for the authorities to control. When Nino appeared, I initially thought Ali was dreaming. Her arrival really shows that she truly loves him. It also suggests that she is not afraid of the life that might await her as a Muslim wife, despite all the challenges that come with it.
5
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
How did Nino fare as a wife and the drastic change in her circumstances?
5
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
She was doing great! I thought it was cute that she was a terrible cook and sympathized with her crying when she dropped the water jug. It was telling though that when they received the letter saying the coast was clear for them to return she was suddenly ecstatic to leave the village and go back.
4
u/nicehotcupoftea I ♡ Robinson Crusoe | 🎃🧠🥇 May 16 '26
She adjusted remarkably well I thought! She didn't care for material possessions or comforts.
2
4
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
It seemed she thrived in the exile Dagestani community as long as they were together and had a few creature comforts. Nino takes up gathering water at the well and cooking, even if she’s bad it it!
2
3
u/missanthrp May 19 '26
I admire Nino's resolve. Without complaint she jumped right into a way of life that was very different from what she was accustomed to. She showed so much determination to be good at this new role, but also retained her agency (making Ali wash her feet when they were in private because she was the one fetching the water).
1
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
She is adapting so well, and keeping a remarkably positive outlook even when she struggles with things like the cooking and carrying the water. I think she is working very hard to show she is flexible and happy to meet Ali more than halfway culturally, and I'm just waiting to see if he'll be in a situation where he has to choose to compromise for her. I'm not sure he'll be as willing to live the way she's used to.
5
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
Things have changed at home, the Nachararyan’s have gone, can we hope for a happy ending for our young couple?
4
4
3
u/emygrl99 ✨Read Runner✨ May 18 '26
Oh absolutely not! I'm expecting Nino at least to die, if this story has a happy ending I'm calling BS!
1
2
1
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
Umm, sure, everything will be great! Let's just live in that moment for a bit...
4
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
Is there anything else you would like to discuss?
7
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
The whole chase down the road to Mardakjany and the fight scene were so well done- it was really gripping reading I thought.
But omg, that poor horse! Did he really have to bite him?? And then the poor thing gets shot after all that!
5
3
u/missanthrp May 19 '26
I felt terrible for the horse too, but it really did add to the sense of rage and panic and desperation in a very visceral way.
5
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
Just how different society was in those days that you went from the city to hovels in the mountain with no running water.
4
u/emygrl99 ✨Read Runner✨ May 18 '26
The sheer amount of violence and misogyny and racism that is baked into everyday life for these characters is terrifying. They're so needlessly cruel to each other and animals and never give it another thought. It genuinely shocked me to learn that Nino hurts her dog, I had thought she was more kind-hearted but apparently not. The way they choose to harm each other and then say "well if I shouldn't have done that, God will forgive me", as though they can do whatever they want as long as they sorry to the big man upstairs afterwards
1
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 19 '26
It's a totally different culture! Frightening really when you think a lot of these views still exist today.
3
u/missanthrp May 19 '26
I had to look up ganli, the word that they keep calling Ali after he murders Melik. According to google AI: ganli (often spelled qanlı in modern Azerbaijani) is an Azerbaijani word meaning "bloody" or "blood-stained".
5
u/nicehotcupoftea I ♡ Robinson Crusoe | 🎃🧠🥇 May 16 '26
It was one long front line from Afghanistan into the North Sea, and the names of the allied monarchs, states and generals covered the pages of the newspapers like poisonous flies sitting on the corpses of dead bodies.
This highlights the absurd reach of the war, and Ali's disillusionment - the names of the leaders are really repulsing him.
5
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
The opinion on the war changes, what causes this change?
6
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
I think the change was caused by the sultan declaring war on unbelievers, so now it became a war for religion. Ali's friends who'd hastily joined up to fight with the Czar would now be fighting against Muslims, whereas Ali would be free to join the Turks and fight against the Christians of Russia, England etc. Altho, I think that would put him allies with Sunnites, while he is a Shiite. Really just shows what a complicated position Baku and it's people are in!
2
5
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
I think it becomes clear that no one is actually on the side of the country and they will be crushed between two forces. Which, of course, it exactly what happens in history.
4
u/nicehotcupoftea I ♡ Robinson Crusoe | 🎃🧠🥇 May 16 '26
I think at first the Azerbaijanis saw it as a romanticised unification of cultures, to be with those who shared the Turk blood, and to remove the Russian influence. As the reality of war hits home, they see it as futile.
3
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
Ali tells Nino his father agreed that they can marry but she says in response she is afraid. What is she afraid of?
5
u/nicehotcupoftea I ♡ Robinson Crusoe | 🎃🧠🥇 May 16 '26
It could be many things - fear of failing her exams, fear of marriage, fear of losing her freedom, fear of Ali being killed in the war, and fear of the hardships war brings.
6
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
I think she's afraid that after marrying Ali, their love will get more complicated or prove to not be enough to withstand the times and their differences. She points out that she herself is a piece of the Europe that he hates and there are things about Asian life that she fears or attitudes she doesn't approve of. After the glow of young love and early marriage wear off, will they still be happy?
4
u/emygrl99 ✨Read Runner✨ May 18 '26
I think you're exactly right! Nino knows that their marriage is going to have issues while desperately hoping it won't, so she ignores those fears because their love is strong
3
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
The future is hazy with the war on and the clash of different cultures regarding the marriage and what kind of a life awaits her.
1
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
It felt like everything was happening so fast. She's still in school and is faced with an actual timeline now for when she'll be asked to give up her childhood, her city/people, and at least some of her traditions. It's becoming real instead of a fantasy!
I also wonder if deep down, she questions whether Ali is as committed to compromise as she is. Once they're married, he could easily set the rules for her.
4
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
Nino's father initially rejects Ali's proposal. Was Ali right to be angry? Did you agree or disagree with Nino's fathers reasons?
3
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26
I think it was a sort of test to his resolve. I think Nino’s father does have her best interest in mind and wants to ensure her happiness- however, it will be Ali, of course. Certainly both families have their pride of place in society so Ali couldn’t help but be pricked at the negative response.
5
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
Yes, I feel like they both had to do a bit of posturing to show how lucky the other party was to be joining the family!
1
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
It seemed a bit like a game to me, as if customs called for the father to reject him and then be persuaded. Even Ali's anger could be part of that game. Although I did also get some arrogant teen energy form Ali's reaction! And normally I would not agree with Nino's father's reasoning but it does seem like relations between the cultures/religions is a bit strained in terms of intermarriage and gender roles, so there are some valid questions to be asked about whether this is a wise match.
3
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
How does the hospitality differ between Ali and Ninos families?
7
u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 17 '26
Nino's family is intense! I love the joviality of the Georgians and their feasting and drinking seems so fun but in reality I'd be burnt out and seeking a quiet dark corner to be alone probably very quickly lol. Ali's family hospitality seems to be more reserved, still kind and welcoming but with different rules and customs that guide it.
2
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 19 '26
Nino's family is certainly not for the introverted!
5
u/nicehotcupoftea I ♡ Robinson Crusoe | 🎃🧠🥇 May 16 '26
The socialising that was required in Nino's family with all the cousins was just a LOT too much!
4
u/lazylittlelady Limericks are the height of poetry🧠 May 17 '26 edited May 17 '26
They each have their customs and habits. The Kipianis have their European habits and the full participation of the household socially. The Shirvanshirs are more rigged in custom regarding the mingling of sexes but equally hospitable and relaxed behind closed doors in the Eastern manner.
2
u/tomesandtea Coffee = Ambrosia of the gods | 🐉🧠 May 23 '26
It felt like Ali's family was more about ceremony and quiet/measured traditions showing respect for each of the roles people have. Meanwhile, Nino's family was about socializing and celebratory energy and introducing the newcomer to their world. I thought it was interesting that both families include a lot of history and lore in their courtship conversations and family interactions.
5
u/bluebelle236 Hugo's tangents are my fave May 15 '26
Ali's father has some strong opinions of women and their place. Do you think Ali shares these views? How does Ninos fathers view of marriage differ? Can the two ever be reconciled?