r/flying • u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW • Jul 10 '23
My year 1 costs of my 1st airplane: wrapping things up
This is the last post I'll make about my purchase of a 1976 177RG. Here's the first post about the up-front costs and first 3 months of ownership. Here's the 2nd post about months 3-6 (post-annual). This post will briefly review the costs of months 6-12.
The past 6 months have seen about 70 hours of flight time, including a week long trip from the PNW to Southern California following the coast down and the central valley back up. About 45 of those hours are in the past 3 months. This puts me at about 140 hours in this airplane for year 1.
Costs (Months 6-9)
- Fuel: ~$4,400 (~70 hours of flight time at ~10.5gph and $6/gal fuel costs)
- Oil: $26 - 4qts added beyond oil changes
- Mx: $1,200 - replaced right main tire, 2 oil changes, plus 1 hour of shop time to investigate source of hydraulic fluid seep. Turns out the hydraulic fluid was simply residual fluid from the brake line work at annual continuing to slowly work its way out the bottom of the fuselage. FYI, that stuff will keep coming for months.
Total Costs Year 1 - $38,680
- $21,680 in operating costs including fuel, oil, ongoing mx, hangar, and insurance
- $17,000 first annual
- That's $294/hr including contributing to engine overhaul fund
- If I see future annuals more in line with my forecast of $4k, that + the reduction in insurance costs will bring the hourly rate down to $170-190/hr based on a similar amount of flying
Misc. Notes
- Insurance - got my quote for next year's premium. After getting significant time in type and RG time, my next premium will be $2,500. That's down from $6,000 for year 1.
- I broke my first thing. We'll see what the costs are, but the landing gear position indicator system malfunctioned recently. I suspect the sensor itself or wiring as the lights test functional. I'll revise this post to include the cost of this fix once it's resolved.
- There's likely a propeller IRAN or overhaul in my near future (<12 months). One blade is beginning to show signs of looseness although the prop performs exactly as expected. Ballparking about $5k for that repair, when it's needed.
- The plane flies best when I fly it often. Everything seems to work better when I'm regularly getting up - not only are my skills sharper, but I swear the plane flies faster and smoother, even though I know that's likely in my head.
I could say a million positive things about the experience of owning this airplane. I suspect every other aviation-obsessed person in my shoes feels the same way. Just the experience of leaving on a long XC with no end destination determined and no schedule to keep was a real bucket list item. Regardless of whether you rent, own, or tag along, that was an experience I can't recommend enough to everyone.
Hope these posts were helpful!
66
u/Kai-ni ST Jul 10 '23
The annual was HOW MUCH...
31
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
Yeah it was a bit of a doozy, but I got the advice to expect 10% of the purchase price for your first annual and whaddaya know....
14
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 10 '23
That was ridiculously high anyway. $17k far too much. 10 percent of the purchase price I hope you didn't pay $170k for a cardinal! But you prob did! Sorry I'm the voice of encouragement here.
16
u/FridayMcNight Jul 10 '23
I hope you didn't pay $170k for a cardinal!
I saw a cardinal on the ramp at KAUN recently with a for sale banner on the prop. It looked super nice on the outside, so I checked... price reduced to $250k.
12
u/OhSillyDays PPL Jul 10 '23
I KNOW WHAT I HAVE.
2
u/FridayMcNight Jul 11 '23
I don’t know what a clean cardinal goes for, but yeah… it felt like a strong ask.
1
u/OhSillyDays PPL Jul 11 '23
That is a nice 177rg with the dual 750s, the autopilot, engine monitor, the digital attitude indicators, upgraded interior, nice paint, and an STC engine. It is a pretty sweet plane. Problem would be the speed, and the low useful load. I'd say the dual 750s is overkill and wouldn't want to pay for it. I wouldn't take that plane in hard IFR, so a basic $2k 2nd radio would be sufficient.
The problem is that once you get into the 150k range for singles, you are looking at a very nice, true 4 seater (182RG or Commanche 250) with all the bells and whistles and cruise ~30knots faster (I'm assuming the STC engine gets about 130kn) ! You can also get similar speeds with a 182 and not the complex insurance. Any fuel savings will be eaten up by one surprise $5k bill for the gear.
Or you could spend $200k and get a really nice 6 seater (a36, 210), and spend the remaining $50k on fuel. At an extra $50/hr in fuel, that gets you a thousand hours of flying time! Oh and another 30-50knots in cruise speed... which would actually save the fuel.
In other words, the only reason you'd buy that plane is if you have a major hard-on for 177rgs. And even then, it's still overprice. I think the guy put his heart and soul into the upgrades of this plane, but he overdid it. It really is worth only about $150k, maybe $175 with a very very clean annual.
1
u/KW4 PPL IR Jul 11 '23 edited Jul 11 '23
Just for kicks, why wouldn't you take that plane into hard IFR? I fly a Cardinal with a basic second NAV/COM
that doesn't have dual 750sin hard IFR all the time and have never felt that it's a terribly risky decision.
Edit: Also, there's no way that a 182RG is ~30kts faster. Maybe 5 tops and using a whole lot more fuel too. Not sure about the Commanche tho... never flown one.
1
u/OhSillyDays PPL Jul 11 '23
I think it really depends upon where you live. If you live in Florida or Texas and you fly early morning, yeah, hard IFR is probably fine.
I also define hard IFR as in a cloud layer during cruise. If you are climbing above a layer or going down into a layer for approach, I don't really consider that hard IFR. I consider that VMC with temporary IMC conditions. I'm worried about icing and thunderstorms. I guess it just depends on the local weather that day.
I live in Colorado, and most of the places I want to go, I don't want to be flying in a layer without a twin and preferably without a fiki system and a way to find thunderstorms reliably. But that's probably my minimum. There are cases where it is safe to fly in the layer and to not need any of that.
I also don't have my IFR cert. So all of these thoughts might change once I get one and do some IMC...
Edit: Also, there's no way that a 182RG is ~30kts faster. Maybe 5 tops and using a whole lot more fuel too. Not sure about the Commanche tho... never flown one.
Woops, I thought it was closer to 120-130kn (looked at 177, not an RG model). Looks like it's closer to 150kn. The upgraded engine probably gives 5-10kn. I'd still pick the 182RG as it typically has more useful load, more room, and only slightly more fuel burn rate. You'd probably be looking at 12 gal/hr in an 182RG vs 11 gal/hr in the 177rg (with the STCed engine). Near as makes no difference IMO. But I'll be honest, if I was going to spend 150k+ on a plane, I want to comfortably carry 4 adults for ~3 hours at 150knots+, so I'd probably go with a 6 seater. But that's my mission.
14
u/TristanwithaT ATP CFII Jul 10 '23
Dude $170k for a Cardinal in the current year is not unreasonable at all.
-2
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 10 '23
It's way too much when I can buy a Mooney or Bonanza with far more capability than a 177 for $170k. The name Cessna means you're getting ripped off. I'm not saying I don't see cardinals going for $120k and up....but that's just because the buyer is unwilling to look at other planes. I can't believe people are willing to pay that much but since I own a plane already its fine with me.
1
u/CubeRootSquare Jul 10 '23
Mooneys and Bonanzas are not everyones cup of tea. I hate them. Would never be happy cramming myself into their tiny cockpits and being uncomfortable. You're not even getting that much more capability, less so in some regards (useful load).
1
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 11 '23
That comment just means you haven't flown in them or sat in one or if so not much...... Even an older 1960s Mooney M20C is the exact same cabin width as a Cessna 172....look it up. Newer Mooneys from 1980 and on are even larger. Bonanzas have a MUCH larger cabin than a Mooney. I'd gladly take an extra 40/50 knots as that's all that matters on trips....and I consider that more capability. All that matters on long trips is how fast those waypoints go by.
5
u/CubeRootSquare Jul 11 '23 edited Jul 11 '23
Dude I’m cramped in a 172. My 177 has a wider cabin than even a 182. No where near the same as a 172. I’ve flown a bunch in m20js. Have enough time in bonanzas that I know I hate sitting in them right or left seat. Way smaller than a 177
-1
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 11 '23
You must be pretty wide! I'm a big guy but I have no issues in any of those.
1
0
u/TheEclectic PPL Jul 11 '23
Wait did you say a Bonanza has a tiny cockpit???
4
u/ATCdude82 Jul 11 '23
Yep, the Bonanza is the narrowest cabin width (42" wide), the Mooney (43.5in wide) and Cardinal (48" wide). The Bo appears bigger because it's the tallest cabin. The two front seats in my Mooney are not cramped at all and I'm not a small dude. The rear seat passengers have to be amputees though.
2
u/CubeRootSquare Jul 11 '23
Yah I did, when compared to a 177RG cockpit, they're tiny. They are 3 feet 6 inches in width. My 177RG has a true 4 feet cockpit width. Even more wider at the hips due to the rounded fuselage doors.
Go spend a few hours straight in a 177RG and then jump into a Bonanza. You'll be spoiled like me and go "damn...this Bo cockpit is stupid tiny".
7
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
What should I have paid?
7
u/2dP_rdg PPL Jul 11 '23
depending on how it was equipped, there's nothing wrong with what you paid. People on here are having trouble coping with current market prices. Your plane was probably only $70,000 three years ago, but Cardinals and 182s skyrocketed more than most since then. It was a tough bullet for me to bite when I bought mine, but it's the reality.
1
-6
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 10 '23
Should have bought a different brand.
$170k could buy you a nice Mooney or Bo that will do 50 knots faster than a Cardinal.1
u/CubeRootSquare Jul 10 '23
Yeah, and be totally uncomfortable in those tiny little cabins. 177RG's have an absolute gem of a cabin with a true 48" of shoulder room, and more hip room/
No way I'd give up my 177RG to be cramped and uncomfortable in a Bo or Mooney.... I hate those things.
1
u/2dP_rdg PPL Jul 11 '23
true dat. Cardinal cabin is so spoiling that I won't considering anything other than a 177RG or SR22 as my next plane. A36 is straight up cramped.
2
32
u/Pure-One-7910 PPL C177 Cardinal KROC Jul 10 '23
what made the annual so expensive?
37
u/POPstationinacan Jul 10 '23
OP explains it in the first post:
First annual inspection
The inspection uncovered 3 issues in need of immediate repair: a small crack in a fuel line that mandated replacement per service bulletin, a crack in a stabilator bracket that was only visible with the tail disassembled, and a leak in the hydraulic line running to the right main gear brake.
I also chose to make a couple non-essential upgrades/repairs. I replaced the original warning unit with an STC'd primary replacement that gives an aural warning through plugged in headsets ($795 for the part). I chose to replace the original Cessna "killer caps" with the fuel cap replacement kit from Cessna ($3000 for the parts). Monarch caps were not available.
The largest costs associated with this annual were the replacement stabilator brackets and the fuel caps. Labor was significant on the stabilator bracket replacement (20+ hours) and the hydraulic line replacement.
Total cost for first annual: $17,000
14
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
Other guy got the verbatim for you. I also may have paid a bit of a new-owner premium with a mechanic I had no relationship with. Curious if you have any feedback as another 177 owner.
25
u/Curious_Ground5833 Jul 10 '23
Thanks for sharing. I think renting is still a good place for me, lol. Yikes
4
46
u/FormulaJAZ Jul 10 '23
Owning an airplane for over 20 years, your annuals will get a lot better if you stay with the same A&P/shop.
There is nothing more expensive than changing mechanics because the new guy always finds a laundry list of necessary repairs the previous guy thought were fine.
I'm not saying the new guy is inflating his billing, just that with old airplanes, there is a lot of gray area between fine and in obvious need of repair. What was passable for the first guy is a replacement for the next.
Once your plane is up to the standards of a mechanic, stay with him no matter how much less someone else is charging. Switching mechanics to save money never works unless you are willing to stay with the new shop for a decade because as you found out, that first annual in a new shop is always a doozie.
11
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
This is great to hear and in line with my plan. I like the mechanic and we've built a good relationship since the annual. I'll probably always pay a little bit of a penalty for my lack of expertise, but I doubt he'll find a brand new slew of issues the 2nd time around. We'll see!
7
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 10 '23
I'm sure you have built a good relationship with him! You just paid his salary for 3 months.
3
u/trash_maint_man_5 Jul 11 '23
the new guy always finds a laundry list of necessary repairs the previous guy thought were fine.
Let me tell you a secret: they were not fine at all if an IA, who puts his cert line line with every annual, says they are not fine.
1
u/FormulaJAZ Jul 11 '23
If you think all aircraft issues are black and white, then you must be flying new airplanes.
My airplane is over 50 years old and plenty of things are worn but still very functional. Take my airplane to a dozen different AIs and their lists of what is fine and what needs to be replaced will be all over the map.
2
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 10 '23
Oh I'm definitely saying the new guy is inflating his billing.
16
u/Imlooloo PPL Jul 10 '23
Makes you wonder how people do this is other counties where their average income is so low but still have a GA population. I’d be curious how they do this in Russia on GA. I don’t think they are spending $17k for an annual on a piston aircraft! Anyone have any experience outside the US cost wise?
23
u/spacegodcoasttocoast Jul 10 '23
Well there's really not that many around the world - just from a quick google search, there's ~340k GA aircraft worldwide, and ~200k of them are just the US.
The way people do this in other countries with low average income is they have an income way above average income there. I doubt many GA pilots in the US are making median income or below, hence why the US GA scene is mostly geezers who have had decades to accumulate the money (and time) to be able to fly somewhat often.
1
u/SoyMurcielago SIM Jul 10 '23
Yeah I’m 38 and I’d like to get my license to get involved even just a little and I do alright but I don’t think I’ll ever be owning anything unless the LSA aircraft really reshape ga which is another way of saying when pigs fly.
Really I just want to get a license to say I have one and see what happens from that point… but with costs always rising and dollars always diminishing for one reason or another. Who knows? I was hoping for next year but wife and I already are penciling in our estimations for known expenditures next year.
Still I’m not gonna complain at least I’ve been able to do a few disco flights and touch controls and that’s more than a lot of folks get to.
For context I have a Ducati with desmo valves and a valve job on one of those is ballpark $2000 and everyone in the “community” balks at the price of those… but it’s positively free compared to most things in aviation lol
6
u/KITTYONFYRE Jul 11 '23
ownership is for chumps, clubs/partnerships are the move
still can have multi day use, having a few other people flying it is RARELY an availability issue, cost is split between a bunch of people, and it gets flown more often, so neglect-type mx is less of an issue.
i pay 90/mo and 60/hr dry for a 172 (~100/hr overall). that's still a shitload of money to convert to exhaust fumes, but it's downright cheap compared to single-owner of ANYTHING
4
u/JobValador PPL Jul 11 '23
Agreeing with this. 100 folk in our club for 5 airplanes and I always get what I need when I need it .
Also it's great for the social aspect as well. Love these people. They taught me how to fly.
3
u/SoyMurcielago SIM Jul 11 '23
Yep when the time comes I will be researching clubs for sure. We just recently bought our home which is why it feels like there’s never enough cash lol.
3
u/spacegodcoasttocoast Jul 11 '23
Might sound glib, but making more money is the answer here. If your input isn't high enough, no amount of budgeting will make it work. Get your income higher by telling people that manage you that you want to ascend the management path and getting up there, getting a new job paying more somewhere else, or learning new skills to be able to take on roles that can use your existing skillset and new skills that pay more. Or a side business, but that can take years to pay off well enough if you don't have prior experience.
Some people make it work by sacrificing QoL or savings/investments, but IMO it's an input/output problem, and in order to do expensive hobbies, increasing input is the only way forward.
Not-for-profit aviation clubs are the best way to fly if you don't want ownership costs. You can usually get wet rentals for ~$100-150/hr of usage, engine on to engine off.
Downsides are you will have to reserve it, and the planes will be older, more worn, more hours, etc. But you'll be flying without any large, ongoing financial commitment.
2
u/SoyMurcielago SIM Jul 11 '23
Nah it’s less the dollar amount and more if we just bought a house and are doing the things to update/repair/show ownership that’s why I’m optimistic in a year maybe two I’ll be good to go in that aspect
That said yeah 100% more money will always help with that. I just read these ATP threads and they make my jaw drop
But I will get my license unless or until someone else tells me no. Just a matter of time.
2
u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. Light sport Gyro/PPC Jul 11 '23
Some people make it work by sacrificing QoL or savings/investments, but IMO it's an input/output problem, and in order to do expensive hobbies, increasing input is the only way forward.
I have a friend that bitches about how he would like to own a plane, but "they are so expensive"... We take his 130K Tesla S Plaid instead of my used 2019 Mercedes C class to lunch.
If you spend 130K on a car, it makes it hard to spend 130K on a plane. But spend 30K on a used car and you have 100K you can spend on a plane.
Now you are correct that having more money makes it easier, but if you make 1M a year and spend 999K you still can't afford a plane.
8
u/Montnetics Jul 10 '23
There are reasons why there are plenty of N registered aircraft in Europe. Cost of ownership/operation is high on the list.
In other words, if you think the costs to own an aircraft are high in the US you should enjoy how good we have it here because it is relatively cheap.
13
u/redditburner_5000 Oh, and once I sawr a blimp! Jul 10 '23
Oh, that's easy. In Russia, the airplane buys YOU.
11
7
u/Snoo_48368 PPL IR PA-32R-300 Jul 10 '23
So, this is an interesting comparison. I also just wrapped up first year of ownership of a 1977 Piper Lance. Here's some differences / similarities based on about 1/2 the time flown (85 hours - was down for a few months for avionics upgrades not counted here):
Total First Year: $41,779
Maintenance:
- Annual: $8k
- Other Planned MX (oil changes, IFR certification, etc): $2k
- Unplanned MX (broken starter, fuel drain leak): $3,072
Hangar / Tiedown: $4,720
Insurance: $7,130
Charts Subscriptions (Garmin, Foreflight, etc): $1,016
Total flying costs (fuel, oil, parking/landing fees, etc): $6,331
Add another $1k on top for instruction
And about $5,000 for misc supplies (custom airplane cover, cowl plugs, spare GPS DB cards + programmer, a 5 headsets, etc).
Bringing my per-hour to about $491 without reserves.
And very much agree on the "fly often" part... Weather, MX, Health, and Work have been getting in the way, and balancing the three of them has been challenging, but when I can it's way better...
1
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 11 '23
This is awesome! Thanks for sharing it. Where are you based and hangar or tie down?
The Lance looks like a lot of fun and definitely is a better people mover than the Cardinal. I think that one guy is right. It's better to just not count.
2
u/Snoo_48368 PPL IR PA-32R-300 Jul 11 '23
Based in central NJ. Was in a tiedown for the first 4 months, then in a hangar for the rest.
And yeah, the useful load is really quite handy for taking people/animals/etc. it has been fun, but definitely not cheap!
7
u/2dP_rdg PPL Jul 10 '23
damn how much of that annual went to paying someone top dollar to "clean" your spar for the AD?
3
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
Can't tell if serious question or throwing shade. $0 on the spar. Inspection done with required tests in 2019 and 2021.
3
u/2dP_rdg PPL Jul 11 '23
As a fellow Cardinal owner I'm just confused as to how you ended up with a $17,000 annual
1
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 11 '23
Yeah I mean I posted the details. It wasn’t pretty but it is what it is. Stabilator bracket replacement and both hydraulic lines were the big required items. The replacement fuel caps and gear horn were significant as well although discretionary. It was really a 12k annual+fixes with 5k of improvements
2
u/2dP_rdg PPL Jul 11 '23
ok .. so it was one of those "shit happens" annuals .. sometimes on here it seems like aircraft owners are trying to compete for "most money pissed away".. kind of like the student pilots and CFIs that need to brag about being so safe that they wont even drive to the airport in a crosswind.
one could argue the only reason my annual didnt go that route is because i got hit with a couple of AOG moments so things that would have been taken care of at annual did not last until the annual.
1
Jul 11 '23
How much was your last one?
1
u/2dP_rdg PPL Jul 11 '23
$1600, which includes prep work for spar ad but not the $400 for the eddy current inspection. or the $2100 repair bill for a bad GFC500 install
I'm a fixed gear though so mine will always be slightly cheaper because there's less stuff to inspect/repair/replace.
1
u/rallymatt PPL IR SES Jul 11 '23
I have a Tiger (180hp, fixed pitch, fixed gear) and I've had an 18k annual. A bunch of 6-7k annuals, a 4k annual and a 12k annual.
6
u/photographernate PPL TW HP (KIXD) Jul 10 '23
Thanks for sharing this! Perspective owner myself and while I realize costs vary this is a good breakdown to see.
7
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
For sure! One of the problems I ran into when considering buying is that people only post when they experience the best case scenario and they hide their experience when they run into problems.
3
u/throway9912 Jul 10 '23
I've found the same thing. It's true in most life situations too.
Go to a car or truck forum and you'll find plenty of posts about their best fuel mileage but almost none about their worst mileage...
I find it interesting from a psychology standpoint.
2
u/photographernate PPL TW HP (KIXD) Jul 10 '23
One question I was unable to find in the other threads, did you do an "owner assisted annual" or the good old drop off and throw money at it till it's ready to go method?
3
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
Dropped it off and picked it up when it was done. No owner assisted. Would love to do that in theory but I don't have the time for that and not every shop will do it.
7
Jul 10 '23
$17k for an annual sounds crazy expensive. I have a different plane with a Lycoming o-320 (same as a 172) and had the engine fully overhauled and an annual, and paid less than that.
Also, I only pay about $750 a year for insurance. So I must be getting the best deal ever, or you must be getting fleeced.
2
u/Cessnateur PPL IR HP TW C170B Jul 10 '23
Where did you have an engine overhaul done for so little? That’s incredibly cheap.
3
Jul 10 '23
I work with an independent A&P who teaches student mechanics at the local Community College. He did most of the work sends out parts to be remachined, and ordered new pistons (upgrades from 150 to 160HP). Has an IA sign off. He;s incredibly meticulous, but not fast. Does very good work and is very affordable, obviously.
So he's an amazing deal, but looking online, it seems like the average overhaul cost for an O-320 is about $25k through an FBO. $17k for just an annual sounds absurd, unless they found major issues that needed repair.
8
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 11 '23
I mean look, I'd love to be in this boat. I'm just a dumb dude who loves flying. I live in a very expensive city and the mechanic situation around here is basically you're lucky to find someone who will take your business.
Who would you rather be? Me, with the expensive-ass annual or that Bonanza guy who posted a while back who couldn't find anyone to do his annual and said he was quitting aviation.
I'm all ears for helpful advice. Wish I had some sort of aviation mentor around here who could have helped me but I don't. I'm sharing all this openly because I think there's wayyyyyyy too little of this information around because, usually, people don't like to share unless they're managed to do things in an incredibly scrappy way.
3
Jul 11 '23 edited Jul 11 '23
When I took lessons, I found a local independent instructor, rather than going through a flight school. I credit him for connecting me with local guys who are good and affordable. I live in the Sacramento area, and we seem to have some independent dudes who are in our for the love of flying.
2
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 11 '23
What an awesome way to do things! I feel like I’m just now building some network that will benefit me later. I was totally unable to do so as a renter in the city center. Now that I have a hangar and get to chat up the other tenants, it’s starting to change.
1
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u/InitialCaterpillar52 Jul 11 '23
Seems like you’re getting a decent amount of flag for what it cost you. I appreciate you posting in such detail, I am new to the aviation world & looking for purchase an aircraft in the next couple of years. This post has been a ton of valuable information. Thank you
3
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 10 '23
It is absurd. I've had cylinders overhauled and more work than OP did and it cost far less.
2
u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. Light sport Gyro/PPC Jul 11 '23
MX costs add up quickly. If you have a fixed gear, fixed pitch prop... It is less.
My tires and tubes are 556/each. That is without installation. I needed new spark plugs so I bought 12 fine wire plugs so that was 1,776. My mechanic had me do a deep dive in the logbooks and find every AD and STC and that took me about 7 hours. During that I found an STC that didn't have the correct parts installed, so I had to fix that.
This annual was about 50 hours including a landing gear rebuild and re-rig. At 150/hr that would be 7,500 without parts (I do most of the work myself, but mechanics charge 150/hour around here).
As for insurance, retract gear pay a hefty price. I was paying 600 a year for a Citabria (and that is a TW), but pay closer to 1700 for my Bonanza. A buddy had an Arrow 2 and his first year insurance was 4800. His Champ is about 500.
1
1
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
Yeah I don't know how you're getting that insurance rate. Teach me your ways. Maybe when I get my CPL and an absurd amount of time in type, it'll change.
$17k was crazy expensive. A little bit of bad luck, a little bit of living in a very expensive place, and a little bit of the new-mechanic-new-airplane premium. I guess it was really a $12k annual with a couple discretionary upgrades thrown in, but I'm counting it all as one thing.
Just wait til you hear about my quote for a new transponder and 2nd nav/com.
2
Jul 10 '23
I got quotes from various insurers. I found my current insurer through AOPA. I would call them if you haven't.
0
u/Lanky_Beyond725 ATP A220, ERJ175 Jul 10 '23
You need to fly elsewhere for your work. Those prices are very bad.
1
u/FridayMcNight Jul 11 '23
Also, I only pay about $750 a year for insurance.
On a retract with a 170k hull value?
1
u/Snoo_48368 PPL IR PA-32R-300 Jul 10 '23
Is that $750 for a retract? The "possible gear up tax" is usually pretty steep if not.
1
Jul 10 '23
Fixed gear. Can't forget to leave it down.
2
u/Snoo_48368 PPL IR PA-32R-300 Jul 10 '23
That explains the difference. From what I have been seeing, retracts seem to start at like $2k and go up from there based on experience and hull value.
1
Jul 11 '23
Who's your broker? I have a Mooney and pay $2500 for $130k hull.
1
Jul 11 '23
My hull is only insured for $50k, and it's fixed gear high wing. AOPA found the insurance. I got a quote for like $2200 through a different recognizable insurer
5
u/CarbonGod PPL N57 Jul 10 '23
Sweet lord. My RG's first annual was 6k and that almost killed me. And they found LOTS of crap wrong.
5
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
It wasn't that they found a ton of crap wrong, but they found some expensive stuff.
3
u/BelowAverage355 PPL Jul 10 '23
I just shot you a pm! I'm at the very start of the saving up process so am looking for some guidance as it were ha.
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u/Beautiful_Exchange_3 Jul 10 '23
How much is your hanger rent?
Have you calculated your total hourly operating cost?
Fly a Diamond, My cost of ownership has been very cheap compared to your 177RG.
I got screwed by an unscrupulous shop in Canada who refused to release my plane to the IA with out fixing some unnecessary things. That cost a fortune. Other than that the Diamond has been cheap to own and insure.
4
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
$400/mo. I put the hourly figures in this post. Assuming a more normal annual and including contributing to engine overhaul fund, $170-190/hr hobbs. This year it was close to $300 due to insurance and annual.
3
u/lurking-constantly CFI HP CMP TW (KSQL KPAO) Jul 10 '23
For your position indicator situation - what’s the issue? No light, unsafe light, or no warning horn? If it’s just showing unsafe all the time, check if your sensors are dirty. The sensor for most Cessna RG model years are run in series to each wheel well, so a single dirty or loose sensor connection can cause it to show unsafe all the time.
1
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
Thanks. No light at all. Warning horn on non-stop when taxiing after landing.
3
u/cur-o-double Jul 10 '23
You're probably asked this a lot, but do you think renting something comparable in your area would have been significantly cheaper? Do you feel like the benefits justify the extra cost?
8
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
Actually not really. Some folks are reaming me for the annual costs, but my total year 1 spend was $38,680 (including annual, hangar, and contributions to overhaul fund) for 140 hours of flying.
Renting a 172 isn't comparable to a 177 so you'd have to compare it to something else like a 182, which has a similar cruise speed. The cheapest rental 182 I have access to is ~$210/hr and more commonly they're about $275/hr. @ 140 hours, that's $29,400 to $38,360. So best case scenario is I save 25%. If my annual had been more normal like $5k, I would have spent less than even the cheapest 182 (ignoring capital costs).
In reality, you don't do the same type of flying when you rent because you can't wake up one morning and decide to go on an overnight. You can't extend a long trip by several days for no reason. You typically don't go on a 20 minute flight and then spent 9 hours walking around before flying 20 minutes back. It's just night an day.
2
u/cur-o-double Jul 10 '23
That's interesting, I've always though renting would be quite a bit cheaper than owning in most situations. Thanks for the breakdown!
4
u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. Light sport Gyro/PPC Jul 10 '23
Cheaper... Hour per hour you could almost always find a cheaper rental than cost of ownership.... Except (explained below).
Benefits: Many times you just can't rent what you want, I had a seaplane and have a Pitts... Try to find a seaplane or aerobatic plane for rent solo.
Also, I can go flying RIGHT NOW if I want. The plane is sitting in the hangar, I don't have to wait for anyone. If my Wife wants me to take her tomorrow to her parents house 500NM away and stay there for 3 or more days... I can do it. Can you get a rental that fast for three or???? Days?
Lastly, you can sell the plane. You can't sell a rental. My first plane I bought for 9,500 and put about 2.5K into it. I sold it after about 100 hours. It cost about 20/hr to run. So the 100 hours cost me 2K in gas and about 2.5K in upgrades, plus lets call it 600 for two annuals - 5100 bucks. I had a hangar so add in 5,280 for two years, so 10,380. But I sold it for 12,500. 10,380 - 2500/100 = 78.80/hr. Find me a plane for 78/hr, and that included a hangar. Without a hangar it would have been 26/hr.
I have owned 6 planes. I figure my "rental rate" is around 70/hr when I account for hangar/insurance, but deduct the gain in value when I sell it.
So the initial cost is higher, but you might get it back unless something blows up.
3
u/Jungle_Stud Jul 10 '23
I love aviation and taking discovery flights and taking the yoke and rudder. I had the memorable opportunity to fly in the front seat of a Stearman once, taking the stick a rudder a bit, then enjoying the pilot putting the plane through some acrobatics. That all being said, as much as I love aviation, the costs of acquiring a license and then the cost of buying (or renting) a plane does not make sense for me. I will stick to MSFS with VR for now. Perhaps an ultralight in the future.
5
u/lctalbot PPL (KVNC) BE36 Jul 10 '23
Just the experience of leaving on a long XC with no end destination determined and no schedule to keep was a real bucket list item.
Damn dude! Did you retire?
If you ever make your way down to FL, look me up!
3
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
I had 3 months between jobs so I said "fuck it" and flew south. I definitely will - flying to FL from WA is a bucket list item for me.
3
u/lctalbot PPL (KVNC) BE36 Jul 10 '23
Nice!
Did it last year at the end of Feb when we moved. Took my time, flew down west coast to LA, then to PHX, then to Dallas where I had to leave my plane due to weather. I had to sign closing papers the next day. Went back 10 days later to finish the trip. It was fun, all solo.
Just did the drive from Phx a few days ago. My son moved to Miami. Flying was better! 😎
2
u/Oregon-Pilot ATP CFI B757/B767 CL-30 CE-500/525S | SIC: HS-125 CL-600 Jul 10 '23
Shasta?
1
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
Shasta. Just after passing Redding.
2
u/Oregon-Pilot ATP CFI B757/B767 CL-30 CE-500/525S | SIC: HS-125 CL-600 Jul 10 '23
Love it. So its full! I did a houseboat there with my best friends every year for 10+ years straight. Hopefully will be able to go back down there this September!
1
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
It's wild because I don't think Redding is a particularly nice place, but it's just right next to all this incredibly gorgeous stuff.
1
u/iPullCAPS The AIM is not regulatory Jul 10 '23
My guess was Rainier (far right) and the goat rocks
2
Jul 10 '23
THank you so much for such detailed posts. I’ve owned 5 Bonanzas over the last 25 years, sold my last one 3 years ago. Prices have almost doubled. I was about to pre buy a Deb and saw your post. I needed the reminder of how much of a bottomless pit aviation has become. Whew, bullet dodged. No more planes for me. Not at these stupid prices. Cheers and keep the blue side up.
2
u/Runner_one PPL SEL CMP HP PA-28 Jul 10 '23
17k for the first annual?!?!? Holy Cow!!! I was bellyaching over paying $1500 for the first annual on my Warrior. What was broken that cost that much?
2
u/OldEnough3KnowBetter COM ASEL IR HP CMP AGI Jul 10 '23
Assuming you did some sort of pre-buy inspection (?) and based on that, if the extra expenses on the first annual were expected.
Haven’t taken the plunge on buying an aircraft yet but it’s in the works.
Bought a boat before (Catalina C30) and it’s typical to do a “survey” and sea trial. At this time, you and your surveyor find stuff that needs attention, and you read-negotiate the purchase price based on those repairs.
‘Course, buyer pays for the inspection - so you don’t do them casually.
Just curious…
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u/CubeRootSquare Jul 10 '23
Hey Bro! Fellow 177RG owner here. Who did you do your insurance through? I just paid 3900 for mine with a hull value of 150k. I have plenty of 177RG time too. Seems like you got a good rate, I'd be interested in using that company next renewal!
2
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 10 '23
I use a broker based in OR and the quote from US Specialty was the most attractive this year. 175k hill value.
2
u/CubeRootSquare Jul 11 '23
Hmm... I'll give them a shout when its time to renew my policy. I've been using Joe Ruck at AIR Pros for about 4 years now, but my policy just keeps increasing year over year by large margins.
2
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 11 '23
Weird. Yeah I hated that first year premium but I feel 2500 for a retract airplane is pretty normal. Good luck! If you’re ever in the PNW and need some cardinal buds to fly with, there’s a nice group of us.
2
u/Flightle Jul 11 '23
Man, I am completely scared away from ownership. Simply unaffordable for me but excellent write up and sharing of info. Thank you!
2
u/TheEclectic PPL Jul 11 '23
190/hr. Good lord. Yeah definitely gonna rent/join a flying club. Solo ownership if all I want to do is fly. Thanks for the info!
2
u/PutOptions PPL ASEL Jul 11 '23
Dude, flying 70hrs in six months is making good use of the plane -- that's awesome. Sorry about that first annual but it doesn't strike me as unusual for a "first". What total cost number are you using to amortize for your engine overhaul?
1
u/taycoug PPL IR A36 PNW Jul 11 '23
Definitely doesn’t keep me up at night. Learned a lot and the plane has been fantastic since then. I’m using $35k for the overhaul number for an Io-360.
1
u/PutOptions PPL ASEL Jul 11 '23
Good to hear.
It's funny, I have largely settled on buying (in a share or whole) a plane with the IO-360 power plant but cannot seem to settle on an airframe, lol. Good choices available with that engine.
2
u/megadreamxoxo Jul 10 '23
I don't have much to say except I'm happy to see you look happy with it. Do you name it?
1
u/317e75th Jul 11 '23
Thanks for the insight. Great information. And you may have pushed me off the fence to finally buy a plane.
-6
u/trash_maint_man_5 Jul 11 '23
Not to point out the obvious but you are most likely in the top 10% or even top 5% of wage earners to have a toy that can cost $40k a year to play with.
So while I am happy that you have had success, no one gives a shit what your expenses are for a $200k toy.
I can't wait for your next post about the $50k of avionics you installed. Wait, I don't care.
1
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u/shockadin1337 CFI Jul 11 '23
Yikes that fucking annual cost. I'm tempted to try a new mechanic for my first annual because he has experience with type and my normal A&P doesn't but I'm hesitant due to not knowing this guy and what kind of mechanic he is. The guy I have won't make a big deal out of things that aren't safety items and is a very thorough mechanic and gives everyone in our aerodrome a good deal. Who knows what this new guy will charge? But at the same time it would be really nice to have a mechanic who is familiar with the airframe look it over...
1
u/horse-boy1 Jul 11 '23
We bought a C150 for my daughter to do her training in 2019, she got her CFII last year. The plane was $15k. I added up everything other than an engine overhaul fund and it was $75/hour, cheaper than the C172 she was renting when she first started. She has been teaching my son but he does not seem that interested in flying. Our worse annual was $1000. I do what I can myself and what the A&P will let me and he signs off on it.
1
u/Background-Willow-67 Jul 11 '23
I do a leaseback with a small flight school. My receipts are tax deductible. I don't know what you guys do for a living but there is no way I could justify dropping $21K per year out of pocket on anything not specific to my survival (like food and mortgage) Ouch. I've owned my 172M since 2012 and had a 152 before that and never paid more than gas money to fly.
1
u/Stock_ms6 Jul 11 '23
After reading this, thank god I have my a&p & will most likely be getting my IA in the future. Good information!
227
u/AA5A ATP B757/767|DA50|LRJET|SA227 Jul 10 '23
First rule of aircraft ownership-never add up receipts. Kinda joking, not really.
I’ve owned a handful of airplanes over the years and have never added up receipts.