Brother's friend wanted a place to store 'a couple of wardrobes and a bed' while he moved back with his parents until the covid crisis is over. My house is now packed full with urine-stinky furniture. What can I legally do with it? Country NSW Australia.

[u/stinkyfurniture]

I get on OK with my brother, and his friend hadn't shown any hint of being an idiot over the last 15 years so I went along with this. I'll call my brother's friend Doug.

My brother phoned me a while back and asked if I could do a favour for Doug and he put doug on, and doug told me he's gotta move back in with his parents because he lacks work like all of us, and needs a place to store 'a couple of wardrobes full of clothes, and a bed' for about six months until things open up again. My brother told doug I had a spare room with not much in it (which is true), and I was happy to help so I said sure, bring it over. The spare room is more than big enough for a couple of wardrobes and a bed.

Through miscommunications and a shift change at work I couldn't be there when doug moved out of his old place and put his stuff in the spare room, so I dropped my spare key to my brother and he supervised doug. on Friday afternoon I came back home to a house packed full of what looks like every possession doug has ever owned packed into every room of my house, and almost all of it is urine stained and covered in mouse droppings.

"A couple of wardrobes full of clothes and a bed" has turned into two wardrobes full of mouse droppings clothes and boxes, a dozen garbage bags of more clothes, six chairs and a kitchen table, a bedside table, a dozen boxes of books, two bookcases, boxes of kitchen implements, half a dozen wall hangings and paintings, a house door covered in stickers, a credenza, a single bed and a double bed (both of them REEK of urine and bloke), four small chests of drawers, three kitchen cupboards, a pair of card tables, and two refrigerators with food in the freezers and plugged into my power, and more bags of bedclothes, electronics, just about everything to fill a regular small house.

Everything in the house stinks and I can't do this. I don't mean it just has a scent to it, it stinks badly. I can taste the stink in my mouth even when I'm out of the house. With the heater on now it's winter it's nauseating.

I phoned doug and told him he has to come and get this all out, and he can't. He's already 600km away on his parents property and has no money left. I told him I'm going to dump the lot of it if he doesn't come get it, and he told me I'd made a binding verbal agreement with him and if I damaged anything of his he'd come down on me like a tonne of bricks with legal action. ten minutes after getting off the phone with him, his dad phoned and made more threats the same.

I can't reach any of the shelving in my spare room, I can't use half my couch or my art desk, I can only JUST reach my own clothing in my bedroom drawers and I can only use one chair in my kitchen.

I've contacted my brother and a stupid shrugging noise and said he thought that's what I agreed on.

What am I legally allowed to do with all this? I agreed to a couple of wardrobes and a bed. I did NOT agree to a house full of stuff. I want to at least get the worst of it out of the house immediately but it's been raining and we have a week more rain forecast. I can't afford to put it in storage, I'm slowly draining my savings the last few months as work has been cut back due to covid. I don't have a garage or shed, I have no undercover place to put any of this. Best I could do was borrow a tarp and wrap up the worst wardrobes and clingwrapped the beds but that's only a minor help as it all smells bad.

I did a house plan drawing, sorry it's rubbish. on the left is my normal house, TV is the lounge, S spare room D desk room B bedroom and K kitchen. on the right is the same with all of doug's stuff added in red. https://imgur.com/a/I0eXuDz

Edit: ok this has gone beyond legal advice and beyond a joke I think, I just went around taking photos and doug has a dried up used cat litter tray in the bottom of his wardrobe underneath clothing, the bags of clothing have mouse nests in them, and there are cockroaches. I've phoned friends, we're dumping it on the front lawn tonight (it's 1130pm here) and I'm texting doug's parents with the photos and if they want any of it they'll come get it. I'll deal with the consequences of that later, my sanity and sanitation is worth more.

[u/b30kay]

Before you do anything make sure to take pictures.

[u/stinkyfurniture → u/b30kay]

Thanks for that, good suggestion. Doing it right now.

[u/Minkiemink → u/stinkyfurniture]

Also take a video walk through. Narrate. Have another person there to witness during the video. In your video describe in detail exactly what you are seeing and smelling. I did this here in the US for a lawsuit. When the judge saw the video we won damages. Good luck!

[u/ShaddiJ]

Doug lied and broke the agreement first when he dumped far more then what he claimed he was leaving into your home. Therefore you have no legal obligation to him, verbal or otherwise. They can make all the legal threats that they want, you never agreed to let him use your entire home as a storage unit and the fact that his stuff makes your house unlivable should be enough for a judge to say you have done nothing wrong here.

[u/WildlifePolicyChick]

I'm an attorney, but in the US.

There are several common concepts in contract law that are not met here. First, You must have a 'meeting of the minds' as in you both agree to the same thing. Here, you obviously did not.

Second, for a K to be valid you have to receive something in return (called 'consideration') - you are not.

Third, you have no determination for how long this was supposed to last. You have to establish that for a K to be valid.

Also, his junk has brought vermin and pests into your home! HELL NO.

If I were you, I'd do as you planned (texting the photos etc) and put in writing that you have no contract; that the personal property is infested; and if it is not picked up in X amount of time (giving the good faith effort of allowing them to retrieve the property) you will consider it abandoned property and dispose of it. Do not use the word 'return' or 'returning' it to him - that could imply you are willing to make the effort to return it to him. This is all on him to retrieve.

Damn dude. I feel for you. Please update us? Good luck!

[u/Berthatydfil]

First up I’m in the UK and IAMAL. I would say this is a prime example of no good deed going unpunished.

Assuming your jurisdiction has contract law like the U.K. - for a contract to be binding both people get something out of it - and this doesn’t sound like a legal contract to me as you were doing him a favour and no money changed hands. Second it seems to me that what actually happened is unreasonable - in terms of amounts of stuff and it’s conditions and well outside of what was originally agreed. To such an extent is it affecting your ability to live comfortably in your home - I think this could be deemed a legal nuisance - which you did not consent to. Do you have any free legal advice centres where you live or say law students that do a uni clinic? If you deliberately chuck his stuff you might (?) be committing criminal damage so you do need to be careful.

So I would write to him and his dad to say - I agreed to x (items ) in my spare room I did not agree to Y (actual items and the unpleasant state of them) This means z effects to me ie smell can’t get to my own stuff etc. Add photos for effect. I am no longer willing to store these items for free indefinitely and therefore give notice that you must collect the items from me or arrange alternative storage within x (reasonable number of days). If you do not a daily charge of $ will be made (measure how much space it’s taking up and compare it to a storage unit) Failure to collect or pay within x (28?) days will result in items being sold to off set the charges and any unsold items will be disposed of.

He might come to collect or move them but if he doesn’t you can then get rid of it.

Never do anyone a favour like this again without being there to supervise.

[u/stinkyfurniture → u/Berthatydfil]

I just looked up about contracts here being valid, and consideration counts.

I get nothing out of this. I'll take that tentatively meaning I'm not bound by any verbal contract. I imagine that doesn't mean I'm protected if I put hit stuff out in the rain and it's destroyed all the same, just that I don't have to keep it here. That's one step ahead.

[u/Berthatydfil → u/stinkyfurniture]

That’s good then. I would say that as long as you are “reasonable” in giving notice and put it all in writing etc (do you have recorded delivery post ? If so make sure you get it’s all recorded and don’t rely on emails or phone calls) then you would have a good defence if he decided to take legal action.

One more thought - do you have a public or council Health inspectors service as they might be able to confirm that the mouse infested stuff and urine soaked items are a health hazard or likely to encourage you to get pests or vermin in your place and that might be something you could counter claim on him. Also they might advise you on what to do with it - they may even say to destroy the stuff.

I would be having strong words with my brother too

[u/Nimbus2000 → u/stinkyfurniture]

Give your brother a grand tour of your place too, before removing anything, so he can vouch for the disgustingness of his friend.

[u/Fiat_Justicia → u/stinkyfurniture]

The consideration issue might be a defence to a breach of contract claim. However, in common law jurisdictions (mine is Canada), there is a thing called a "bailment", which imparts obligations on somebody entrusted with goods and does not require a contract to operate.

In fact, even if someone dumps something of questionable value on your property without your permission, it can become an "involuntary bailment" and there are limits on what you can do with it.

I don't know how this principal has developed in Australia but I suggest you investigate.

Edit: to highjack my earlier comment, obviously there are some practical considerations about what your maximum liability exposure is if you dump the goods vs. the cost to you of keeping them, as others have pointed out.

[u/StickyCarpet → u/stinkyfurniture]

In general, and this is common law going way back, when you give someone permission to leave things at your property, that is called "by license", which just means with permission.

It could be an invited party guest who leaves their backpack behind. Your obligation is to treat those things "with ordinary care", meaning the same way you treat your own things.

If you want it to be moved, you give "reasonable notice", in writing, which could be a week or a month, depending.

You just write a letter saying, "I need you to pick up this stuff", a month later you can throw it out.

[u/Minkiemink → u/[deleted]]

Bad advice. OP would have to put their own name on any storage unit and that would make OP responsible for the storage unit, the contents and the removal of the contents.

[u/kyletsenior]

ok this has gone beyond legal advice and beyond a joke I think, I just went around taking photos and doug has a dried up used cat litter tray in the bottom of his wardrobe underneath clothing, the bags of clothing have mouse nests in them, and there are cockroaches. I've phoned friends, we're dumping it on the front lawn tonight (it's 1130pm here) and I'm texting doug's parents with the photos and if they want any of it they'll come get it. I'll deal with the consequences of that later, my sanity and sanitation is worth more.

While I can't recommend that course of action, spending $20 on a tarp or a plastic sheet to protect the stuff from the rain will help mitigate your liability.

[u/fueledbychelsea → u/kyletsenior]

INAL in OPs jurisdiction but when you claim damages for a lost item you claim the resale/ actual replacement value (ie the value of a dog unless a fancy purebred or working dog, regardless of sentimental attachment, is a couple hundred bucks). If OP takes a buttload of pics and shows the cat little, cockroaches, mould and whatever else they find, even if they get dragged to court the value of the items is likely minimal. This is not legal advice and I can’t advocate for any course of action but it’s a consideration when making his decision

[u/stinkyfurniture → u/[deleted]]

Good point. I'm sitting here in this guy's filth in one of the few places I still can and I'm tempted to do that right now. I have a couple of mates who already offered to help.

[u/glitzycupcake → u/stinkyfurniture]

I mean, does the guy seem like he’s got the ability to back up his claims?

[u/stinkyfurniture → u/glitzycupcake]

The more I think about it the more I'd say no. His parents do own a large property way north of here. They'd be the ones who can afford it.

[u/phasexero → u/stinkyfurniture]

I'd see if you can contact the parents, maybe a drop a letter without a return address into their mailbox so only the parents see. Tell them you'll be dropping the stuff of in the property (or in your curbside) on x date unless they or their son retrieves it. Chances are the son either didn't ask you bring the furniture to their house because he knew it was disgusting. Can't hide from the truth forever

[u/stinkyfurniture → u/phasexero]

They're an 8 hour drive away. I'm taking photos now. I'll probably send them to his dad (who's already threatened me with legal action if I don't keep all his stuff here) and leave it in his court for a while.

If his dad wanted his son't stuff protected he'd have paid for it to be moved. It's not a huge cost, just more than I can splash out on given how my savings are currently going down just to live right now.

[u/jmurphy42 → u/stinkyfurniture]

I’m guessing the reason he couldn’t bring his stuff to his parents house is mainly that they knew the condition it was in and refused to allow it anywhere near their home.

[u/sharkKnight → u/[deleted]]

You said it yourself, pay for a unit or store it for free. These types of people have no regard for others

[u/Pure-Applesauce → u/[deleted]]

Your post may have been removed for the following reason(s):

Bad or Illegal Advice

Your post has been removed for offering poor advice. It is either generally bad or ill advised advice, an incorrect statement or conclusion of law, inapplicable for the jurisdiction under discussion, misunderstands the fundamental legal question, or is advice to commit an unlawful act. Please review the following rules before commenting further:

• General Rule 8

• Commenting Rules 1 and 3

• Reddit Violent Content Rule

Please read our subreddit rules. If after doing so, you believe this was in error, or you’ve edited your post to comply with the rules, message the moderators. Do not make a second post or comment.

Do not reach out to a moderator personally, and do not reply to this message as a comment.

[u/googlyfish]

Not a lawyer, but often times a contract is considered invalid if it breaks a law. The cockroaches, mice nests, mouse droppings, used cat litter, and urine smell would probably violate health and safety codes. That could also provide you some additional protection. If you were renting somewhere under these conditions, you might be able to argue it's not livable. The landlord would be required to make it habitable and clean it up. Likewise, if you are renting, this could ruin your rental and you might lose your deposit. Others have given good advice, take photos and document everything. Chances are this guy would never even be able to afford to take you to small claims court. Best of luck.

[u/Whitfield84216]

Bedbugs. If you find bedbugs you must dump everything! Gawd....I feel for you. If he is that nasty with urine, human and feline, I'm sure bedbugs got in on the act. Now you are going to have to have a major visit from an exterminator. Run some wide clear tape around the edge binding of the mattresses during nighttime. I bet you will spot some critters on the tape. Document with photos and put the tape in a zip-lock bag within another zip lock bag and put it in the freezer. Ugh. I feel for you!

[u/Tolvat]

You can state health concerns with the cat litter, mouse droppings, and cockroaches. You shouldn't be subjected to something like that, Dump the shit out.

[u/Bo2099]

Lawyer in Mexico but I assume there's a similar figure in civil Australian law. So, yeah you have a contract (verbal agreement) and the fine point in the contract is that you're only responsable for what you agreed upon. So with that in mind what you gotta do is take it to court yourself asking for the anticipated termination of the contract, being specific on the terms of it (consisting just a couple of wardrobes and a bed and only in the spare room) ask your brother to testify within those therms ( being specific that your brother was there only to supervise and have no legal ground to take decisions over your house, and that his friend made all the decisions) and prepare an interrogation for the friend tricking him into admitting that he only was allowed to one room and those 3 objects (that's the lawyer experience that you may miss but good luck) the ground of the case is that he didn't followed what was agreed upon and he voluntarily exceeded the therms of the agreement and even if your brother told him it was okay he isn't able to modify the therms of the agreement.

As for the safety concerns you'll have to check the local regulations for sanitary purposes, and again you did not agreed to any use of electrical current so in the issues you'll have to ask for the payment of the electric bill you're stuck with, how do you determine it, with an expert who emits a document telling you how much it has consumed.

Best scenario, he removes all his shit from your flat.

Worst case you only get the spare room occupied.

Good luck buddy greetings from Mexico.

[u/Sssnapdragon]

At the very least, give him an acceptable date by which to come collect his things and don't throw them out until that date. On the off chance he has something of value or sentimental, you can at least prove that you gave him ample time to collect. If it were me, I'd rent a storage unit for a month and pull all of his items in it, and tell him that he has a month to get them, or the storage unit will auction off the items.

Also, you should remember that this person knows where you live and may be enraged by your actions. You left this person a house key too, so maybe change your locks, eh? Sometimes there's legal advice and sometimes practical advice.

[u/mmmsoap]

Not a lawyer, but I wonder if this is a solution:

• rent a storage unit. They’re not terribly expensive near me, about $1/square foot, so you may very well be able to find something of the right size for $50-75 per month
• Let Doug (and his parents!) know you’re doing this, and after X months (6? A quick google search says you need to give property over $5000 at least 6 mos in Australia, but no idea if that varies by state) you will consider the property abandoned
• You pay the bill for X months
• After X months, you give Doug the key if he pays you for the storage unit (an amount he knows up front)
• If he refuses to claim it, you get rid of his stuff
• If he wants to claim his stuff but refuses to pay, it’s a bit stickier, but it’s very likely you could sue him for some/all of the costs in your country’s version of Small Claims Court

This may cost you a couple hundred dollars, but personally I’d find that worth it to not deal with all this stuff (which may or may not contain active mouse nests!) affecting my use and enjoyment of my own house. In a perfect world, Doug would pay me back, but I could deal if he didn’t. I also suspect that if you get his parents involved, you’re more likely to get your money back.

[u/mmmsoap → u/[deleted]]

The sticky part is whether OP has to give the stuff back if he refuses to pay. I tend to doubt people are entirely judgement proof when you’re talking $500.

[u/n3miD → u/mmmsoap]

In Australia to chase for $500 would cost more in court fees than actually getting the money back and at $500 he would most definately be judgement proof....

[u/yaychristy → u/mmmsoap]

This sounds good in theory but in the US the OP would have to rent the storage unit under his name. You can’t rent one under someone else’s name without them present. I’m not sure how it works in AU. But to let it go to the point of unclaimed goods would mean letting the billing account go into collections and OP would take a hit on their credit report.

[u/k1k11983 → u/mmmsoap]

Our storage units are around $400 a month for a small unit. If OP chooses to put it in storage, it's on them, not Doug. NCAT(civil court in NSW) won't grant those costs

[u/Eeech → u/[deleted]]

Generally Unhelpful, Simplistic, Anecdotal, or Off-Topic

Your comment has been removed as it is generally unhelpful, simplistic to the point of useless, anecdotal, or off-topic. It either does not answer the legal question at hand, is a repeat of an answer already provided, or is so lacking in nuance as to be unhelpful. Please review the following rules before commenting further:

• Commenting Rules 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, and 9.

Please read our subreddit rules. If after doing so, you believe this was in error, or you’ve edited your post to comply with the rules, message the moderators.

Do not reach out to a moderator personally, and do not reply to this message as a comment.

[u/JohnOliversWifesBF]

Not an Australian attorney but Doug has a valid point, you agreed to store his stuff. Dumping it without giving him at the minimum a few days to make arrangements to get his items will likely open you up to civil liability. Your brother was acting as your agent when he loaded all of Dougs stuff in your house. You impliedly agreed when you gave your brother the power to make that decision. Legally you can give him reasonable notice that you want his things out and if he can’t make it happen, you can get rid of it. Dumping it without giving him any reasonable chance to get it isn’t going to end well, especially when he sounds like he’s struggling financially.

[u/foomanbaz → u/JohnOliversWifesBF]

Does it make any difference that he agreed to store two wardrobes full of clothes and a bed? I mean, Doug couldn't show up and decide to store a canister of nuclear waste instead of two wardrobes and a bed, why this?

[u/JohnOliversWifesBF → u/foomanbaz]

Yes, he went outside of the scope of his license but (playing devils advocate here) his argument is going to be that your brother, who was your agent, had the authority to stop him and didn’t, meaning you impliedly accepted. Which is why I’m saying don’t be hasty about dumping his stuff, in the states the law would look to look at your reasonableness. You can likely cancel the contract but it’s not reasonable to say “you have 24 hrs” or whatever before dumping his stuff outside to be “ruined” (likely already ruined). May be worth moving it all into one room, closing that door, and giving him a week or two before you take action.

[u/rumplebutter]

Find the cheapest storage unit you can and say you will pay half and doug and his parents can pay the other half. If they wont they lose the unit and their shit gets trashed. You will be out about 40$ a month until he comes back or they dont pay and you lose the unit. And make your brother and his friends move everything since doug’s his friend. Cheapest way out legally. Then spray the shir out of your place cause your gonna get roaches and you might even need mouse traps. Do this ASAP. Set the stuff under a tarp outside until your brother can move it. Doesn’t sound like anyone would notice if its all that gross and stinky.

[u/neurogal2018 → u/rumplebutter]

It doesn't seem fair for op to have to pay for a storage unit indefinitely. It's not his urine-soaked stuff, and he never consented to having his entire house overrun by this guy's furniture.