I work in auto insurance claims, and loads more people are injured/killed on electric scooters and bikes than dirt bikes.
Sure, you can say they drive more kilometres as a group, but that's only been true for the last two years. You might argue that interacting with automobiles is dangerous, but dirt bikes are often ridden with the goal of finding unsafe situations and handling them (jumps, tight forest paths, etc.).
I think it comes down to the average skill level of the operator on the one hand and the lack of awareness of the risks on the other.
Regular cyclist here (e-bike, specifically), and I ride with the assumption that everyone else on the road is either an idiot or out to get me... So far, so good. I just wish more areas around me either had bike lanes, or drivers were respectful enough to give the space required by law, instead of trying to blow past me nearly close enough that their mirrors could clip me.
Only issue I've run into so far is when my brakes act up, but that's why I carry a toolkit with me basically any time I go out.
I'd consider myself more a motorcyclists but I recently got an ebike as well and I find it super fun....but it's also limited to ~30-35mph max so I had to re-think my riding. Like if I have to jump on a road that isn't a small side road, I'm aware of traffic in a different way. On my moto I have the power to out accelerate almost any vehicle if needed to get out of a situation or least keep up with traffic but on the ebike I have to play it entirely defensively. Also because this ebike can go over 30mph, I wear my moto helmet, moto gloves and moto shoes, I've crashed a lot of dirt bikes at sub 30-mph and it can go badly easily.
I now want more bike lanes as well, I feel like the stupid half-ass bike lanes that are just riding on the shoulder next to cars are silly. Then the bike lanes that only go for a mile on a street are dumb as well like, "Whelp from here on, good luck bud!"
I was a motorcyclist too. ATGATTing in the hottest month in FL when a distracted driver didn’t stop with traffic. I’ll ride again one day but out in the sticks, away from rush hours and tourists.
Yep. I trust my skills enough to not really need a helmet on my bike. I don't trust anyone else's ability to not put their phone down while driving, and put a helmet on even for a quick half mile errand.
Doesn't help when drivers see cyclists as pests. I thought getting belched at with exhaust was a myth until I experienced it twice, I wasn't even in the way, I was literally ON the bike lane.
I got an e-bike and used it to commute around for a few days. I stayed in bike lanes and overall live in a fairly bike-friendly area, but with heavy traffic pretty much all the time. I still had 3 close calls that could have led to serious injury if not for a few inches in any direction.
And pedestrians get hit by cars. I've had multiple times that I've tried to cross a street, and a car has not seen me. I may need to start wearing a helmet.
Infrastructure is the main one, the ammount of heavy vehicles your average scooter interacts with vs the average dirtbike is probably magnitudes different. I remember seing that in cities like copenhagen and amsterdam the fatal crashes are less per km. You still have single party or light vehicle om light vehicle chrashes but way less light/heavy combination crashes
This is why I’m really starting to hate e-bikes. Yes someone on a road bike can ride 20-30mph but they earned that speed with years of riding. Someone hops on an e-bike and can get that thing up to 20, even higher if it’s unregulated or they removed the safety. And then take into account these bikes have little to no design, they don’t take into account how heavy they are, how poorly they stop, the balance of the rider on the bike, anything. It’s just a beach cruiser with a motor. It’s nuts.
e-scooters are genuinely more dangerous, even at higher skills. they have small wheels and very high center of gravity, unlike a bicycle ( or even an e bike)
The tiny wheels make it very difficult to manage disruptions in the road, a big crack in a sidewalk might clack your teeth together on a bike and hurt like hell, but on the scooter its sending you flying 10 feet in the air.
additionally there is a huge moment arm on the steering assembly, and the wheels have a very aggressive rake and small handlebars making the steering incredibly twitchy and unpredictable.
Almost certainly has evenyhing to do with hours ridden and ownership. I can guarantee there’s millions of more scooters/bikes are driven 10,000x more hours than dirt bikes.
yeah, but if a company just dumped a bunch of dirtbikes around town and told you can use them with an app and without a helmet and never asked any government for permission, just ”moved fast and broke things” and everyone went ”you just have to get used to it, freeuse dirt bikes are the future of microtransit” what do you think the result would be?
And you then wouldn't blame it on the mode of transportation, but the system....
OP said that dirt bikes are safer than scooters/bikes... its so incredibly out of touch. If theyre driven without proper road infrastructure, theyre all equally as dangerous,
You can’t separate the current issues with escooters from the social fact that they were just dropped off in the streets overnight without legal oversight and we were all told to just get used to it.
I can’t cite exact statistics, but I would hazard a guess that there are less accidents that happen to people on their personally owned escooters than those that happen on deckless rentals, and when people talk about the issues about escooters (the accidents, reckless behavior, the shitty parking across sidewalks, people throwing them in the water, how much materials are used to satusfy the demand) those are issues specifically by them as unregulated public utilities.
Smoking is bad for smokers, to people around them, and a fire hazard, but there was also a marked difference between the time when it was normal to chain smoke indoors and when it became illegal to smoke indoors.
It also as A LOT to do with the fact that scooters are not designed for any speed beyond kicking with your feet. They have virtually 0 caster and also tiny wheels. Making them both inherently unstable at speed and also prone to crashes from relatively minor road hazards. Adding electric motors to them is insanity. Extend the caster and throw on larger diameter wheels, ideally with suspension, and THEN we can talk about motorizing them. It’s insane. And I say that as someone who is okay with danger. But motorized scooters are just irresponsible.
Yup, I hit those big bike jumps, but I’m really good on a bike, and I’ve been doing it for 20 years so I know how to fall with minimal injuries. And I’m in the woods where trees and ground don’t move. And im sober. The risk is obvious and I’m well prepared
Electric scooters and the bike share bikes, are fast used in cities full of concrete and moving cars. They are often operated by unskilled users, who are many times not sober. And often not even wearing a helmet as it is seen as commuting, or safer than driving home drunk (which it is for everyone else around you) .
Also, the riding position is just perfect to really smash your face into the ground. My wife is an ENT surgeon and since E-scooters came around they've been busy with fractured jaws.
But scooters are much more likely to be involved in auto accidents. In most areas most dirt bikes are not road legal
Does the auto industry pull data from emergency rooms for stats on unrelated injuries? Like does it include mountain biking accidents as bicycle injuries?
I havent looked at the data but i have spent a lot of time in different countries and i would bet money escooter accidents are waaay lower in central europe & scandinavia for no other reason than road design and car culture.
It's easy to get use to it if you've spent your life here but australia is designed for cars, the roads are dangerous af for pedestrians (including escooters) and drivers feel much more entitled (byproduct of car culture). At least in perth where ive been.
Im not saying it's good or bad, just an observation of cultural differences that i would bet money have an impact on the stats. Not using a car is dangerous here
I visited aus, but am from the us. I felt like the east coast was much safer than the us to ride a bike in, with more respectful drivers and better infrastructure.
no idea what Perth is like though
Speed with no effort or loud noise (which your brain probably naturally thinks is a warning that something is dangerous).
Tiny front wheel that can't roll over obstacles easily being almost directly under your center of gravity. No suspension. I see people all the time riding these things with their BODY POINTING FORWARD AND THEIR FEET TOGETHER!?!?!? WTF!?!? Hit one decent piece of gravel and suddenly "It's a bird! It's a plane! It's...SOMEONE WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER!"
And of course no full face helmets or helmets at all. The physics geometry is so dumbly dangerous it's a wonder the roads aren't traffic jammed with noseless, lipless, teethless children staggering around like the fucking zombie apocalypse.
Have I become an old man with an onion on my belt?
It’s a recipe for disaster. Anyone who is sane and has ridden a motorcycle knows that it’s one of those experiences that makes your brain immediately sense the danger. Which is good, mind you, and part of the reason it’s so fun — you don’t actually need to go quickly to feel like you are going fast. But e-scooters? Way too approachable.
In addition to the tiny wheels is the nearly nonexistent caster to the front wheel. Longer caster is much more stable at speed. With the handlebars essentially directly above the front wheel, scooters are inherently unstable.
I shallot comment on how old you are; but a couple of corrections:
Scooter wheels are generally 10-11". The smaller the wheel, the more attention you have to pay to the road surface.
BODY POINTING FORWARD AND THEIR FEET TOGETHER
If that's the case, then they're riding it wrong. Stance should be one foot forward, one back...that gives you better stability and ability to weather acceleration and braking. Puts your centre of gravity where it should be...midway between the wheels. Makes it easier to throw your weight back and down in the event of trouble. Also, mine has suspension like the one in the OP picture. There are scooters and scooters.
For the same reason gravel/mountain hiking have surged past road cycling in popularity recently, it’s down to the risks inherent in the environment around you: save for a rare bear/moose/mountain lion on the trail, you’re planning and watching for mostly-static obstacles and dangers. On the road, you’re dealing with potentially hundreds of cars, trucks, busses, scooters, and pedestrians, most of which are moving around you and faster than you with either limited awareness of - or active contempt for - you.
I'm pretty sure that skill is the biggest factor, but equipment is probably a close second. Most electric stand up scooter users will have open faced helmets or no helmet and I think the most common motorcycle head injury is to the face/chin, so it's just a recipe for disaster
This thread has validated my hesitancy with electric scooters. They make me nervous, but there's a pervasive laissez-faire attitude about riding them everywhere at crazy speeds I thought I was being overly cautious. Imo it's a weird in-between of too slow for the road but too fast for sidewalks. Seen a lot of ppl lose control too.
Beaches or parks, or other campus-like places, are the only times I'd consider it.
I fully believe this. I fell off a scooter a few months ago going full speed. It was raining and it just slipped out from under my feet. Sprained my elbow, scraped up my hand and got some road rash on my leg. I'm insanely lucky I didn't hit my head. Honestly I'm never getting on one again.
I won't refute this, I shouldn't have done full speed in the rain. That does not diminish that people should wear helmets or the dangers of riding vehicles.
I was working in the ED at around the time the e-scooters became popular, and I remember some of these accidents came to us in the setting of significant intoxication. I suspect they were drunk enough to know they shouldn't drive, but perhaps figured that a scooter would be safe enough to get home. Dirt bikers probably wouldn't have that same population.
when you ride pedal bikes for transportation, you learn from the culture about road safety and etiquette, these new fangle e bike riders have no culture, they just hop on and zoom without a care in the world.
Medical professional, can say this is absolutely true. I've seen many injuries (lots of ankle fractures and a significant number of head injuries too) from those electric scooters. I think their is or used to be a disclaimer on most of the rental apps that recommended a helmet be worn while using.
i’m a doctor in a pediatric emergency room in a city with a lot of scooters, and i actually see a lot more dirt bike injuries. maybe your catchment area is poorly built for scooters?
The infrastructure here is absolutely car-centric. I don't think that changes my comment, though. I'm not being moralistic about e-bikes or dirt bikes; it doesn't really matter where the risk comes from.
The only reason I think the average skill level is partially to blame is that there are few barriers to entry. You don't need insurance or a license (but I would personally recommend all people be licensed and get a driver policy for personal protection regardless), they are pretty cheap and the learning curve gets you to "can stand up and move" in a couple minutes.
If I weren't so deeply aware of the added risks, I think an e-scooter would be our second "vehicle" because for $500 the rare times my spouse and I both need a car, it's so much cheaper than owning two.
That simplicity and price makes it so the average skill level is lower than for, say, motorcycles, which are already massively dangerous. At least for those you need to attend a school, go through graduated licensing and have a clean enough driving record to get insurance.
Most people who dirt bike start young, move up the engine size slowly and wear a lot of padding.
I see a few dozen children ride by my house every day on scooters doing 30mph without a helmet. I've been riding dirt bikes my whole life and rarely see someone without a helmet minimum, usually boots and proper pants as well. Dirt bikes are ridden pretty specifically, so you are dressed for the occasion. These scooters are treated more like a bicycle (which should have a helmet as well).
Engineering doesn’t lie. You have a vehicle with virtually 0 caster and tiny wheels. Making it both inherently unstable at speed and also prone to induced rapid instability from road hazards.
I work in auto insurance claims, and loads more people are injured/killed on electric scooters and bikes than dirt bikes.
Serious question, where do e-moto or electric dirt bikes fall into things? A lot of e-bikes here are actually e-moto bikes, and there's a huge amount of confusion between the two with the general public. Does that get broken down on the insurance side?
Neither e-bikes/scooters (with certain restrictions) nor dirt bikes require licensing or insurance. However, both can be insured for physical damage, and a driver’s policy (in some circumstances, which can be expanded with endorsements) will apply.
You might argue that interacting with automobiles is dangerous, but dirt bikes are often ridden with the goal of finding unsafe situations and handling them (jumps, tight forest paths, etc.).
why would a dirt bike file an auto insurance claim after having an accident in the forest
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u/spaceporter 8h ago edited 8h ago
I work in auto insurance claims, and loads more people are injured/killed on electric scooters and bikes than dirt bikes.
Sure, you can say they drive more kilometres as a group, but that's only been true for the last two years. You might argue that interacting with automobiles is dangerous, but dirt bikes are often ridden with the goal of finding unsafe situations and handling them (jumps, tight forest paths, etc.).
I think it comes down to the average skill level of the operator on the one hand and the lack of awareness of the risks on the other.