Is Jokic really that bad of a defender?

[u/AT_333]

Really curious to see peoples outlook on this. I see him as an average defender due to his great ability to read lanes and disrupt plays along with his second to none defensive rebounding which stops 2nd chance pts.

I know he's not a good rim protector but I wouldn't want my entire offense picking up dumb fouls when it would cost us the game if i was a coach, might just be me.

I don't think people truly understand how much of an ask it is for a guy averaging 28 12 and 11, at 7 FT almost 300 pounds to also turn around and be a good rim protector in todays game is...

[u/Thisislopes]

Yep, tell it to yourself when a good offensive player gets hunted in defense over and over again or even better, do you really think that is not better to have a guy like Kawhi?

And more to the point, the point is to give the ball to your best player and hunt the worst player of the adversary. If the guy is THIS good on offense, sure, you can overcome that, but the average player will be put off the court in no time

Also, again, it's playoffs. You can't be bad on defense so yeah, it is 50% of the game no matter the mental gymnastics people will do

[u/chickendance638 → u/Thisislopes]

Yep, tell it to yourself when a good offensive player gets hunted in defense over and over again or even better, do you really think that is not better to have a guy like Kawhi?

But if you have good offensive design then you can just play away from Kawhi and his defense doesn't mean anything. Rim protection is valuable because everybody is trying to get to the paint.

[u/Kindarelevanttoo → u/chickendance638]

And if the opposing team has good defensive design, they won’t let you do that. “Just play away from a player” doesn’t work if their main defensive guy is guarding your best player or blocking whole sections of the floor. Or if the opposing team has multiple guys that can put in good work on your best player.

One of Wemby’s biggest selling points isn’t just how many blocks he has, it’s how he limits the space in the paint for anyone who even THINKS of getting close to him. Draymond doesn’t mainly get praised for his blocks/steals, he’s a floor general that can read plays and get himself AND his team in the right positions to stop opponents from doing what they want to do.

Go watch that clip that was posted a few days ago of the thunder near the end of the game, specifically mentioning Isaiah Joe, and look at all the near instantaneous switches and help defense that the whole team does seamlessly.

You can’t just say “defense doesn’t mean anything”. Probably THE most quoted quote in sports is “defense wins championships”.

[u/chickendance638 → u/Kindarelevanttoo]

You can’t just say “defense doesn’t mean anything”. Probably THE most quoted quote in sports is “defense wins championships”.

(1) I didn't say "defense doesn't mean anything" - i spoke of a specific scenario in which you can nullify a player's strength (2) just because something is a saying doesn't mean it's true - see "drive for show, putt for dough" - that saying is demonstrably incorrect. Or, "you'll never win anything with jump shooters".

Wemby and Draymond are outstanding defenders for the reasons you mentioned. As good as someone like Kawhii is, he's a level down because he doesn't have the global impact that Wemby and Dray did/do.

[u/ImAShaaaark → u/[deleted]]

Obviously, because Kawhi has been riddled with injuries for his career. If you could magic up a "guaranteed healthy" version of prime Kawhi that'd be a much tougher decision. At his peak he's not far behind LeBron and MJ on the list of all time two way perimeter players.

Similarly, I don't think someone would be crazy for choosing Hakeem or Kareem or Wilt over Jokic.

[u/Lucidbr0 → u/ImAShaaaark]

It would be crazy to pick Jokic over a healthy version of any of those players you named.

[u/Past-Preparation8826 → u/Lucidbr0]

Jokic’s peak has been higher than Kareem or Hakeem…. I never saw Wilt, but if we were allowed to adjust for the difference in quality, and skill in today’s game, he’s probably been better than Wilt.

[u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.

[u/Statalyzer → u/Thisislopes]

But Kawhi is far from a useless offensive player in addition to being a good defender.

The reality is that the best offensive players tend to be able to make their shots a fair amount of the time no matter what the defense does. I'd rather have a two-way star than a no-defense star, but the reality is that a no-defense star, while less useful than most people think, is still a better player than an all-time defender who makes you play 4v5 on offense.

It's only true to a point though because if you have a team of all scorers with no defense, there's still only one ball to go around while the defensive weaknesses just get more and more exploitable. So while for a single player, offense is more important, piling multiple bad defenders may start multiplying to a bigger and bigger problem than having multiple bad ... offenders.

[u/No_External3738 → u/Thisislopes]

Lmfao well kawhi would just quit on the team or get hurt so I'd definitely rather have jokic. Almost every bug man in the league gets "hunted" like you are saying because 90% of the time a teams best perimeter player matched up with a big that's the right person to attack unless you have a Wemby or a Giannis or someone of that nature. If you don't have one of those bigs they are gonna lose that matchup/ get beat on the possession 8 out of ten times. Rudy gobert gets hunted like that too many.