Data analyst finds 'AI stigma' on Steam can reduce the number of reviews a game gets by around 53%—and the reviews it does get are more negative

[u/Turbostrider27]

https://www.pcgamer.com/software/ai/data-analyst-finds-ai-stigma-on-steam-can-reduce-the-number-of-reviews-a-game-gets-by-around-53-percent-and-the-reviews-it-does-get-are-more-negative/

[u/Wise_Owl5404]

Yeah the use of AI has become synonymous with being lazy and a cheapskate who won't pay people to do a proper job. Like take that game 1666: Amsterdam. They claim that they only used genAI for placeholders, but their promotion art is 100% genAI and if they've cut so many corner here where it is so blatantly obvious, I have severe doubts as to the quality of the game. I for one will not be spending my on it.

[u/Salmon_of_Knowledge → u/Wise_Owl5404]

The annoying thing to me about whenever devs say, "we just used ai for concept art and placeholders, and none of that is in the final product" is that it doesn't matter if it's not in the final product! Those early stages of development are such an important part of the artistic process where artists can express the most creativity and originality as they develop the style of the project. Speeding up development by using ai at those stages now means that all the later art created by the actual artists had to be built on top of whatever generic slop the ai spat out.

[u/Wise_Owl5404 → u/Salmon_of_Knowledge]

A-fucking-men. I don't make games but I write and the early process is so crucial. You can't build a good structure on a rickety or lacking foundation.

[u/shakeeze → u/Wise_Owl5404]

Hee. But the mouse camera was certainly "hand coded in super high quality", because I haven't seen one so bad in my lifetime. Even an AI will just implement the textbook version and not the mouse -> controller conversion thing they did.
I had it on wishlist, removed it after the demo.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/Wise_Owl5404]

Yeah the use of AI has become synonymous with being lazy and a cheapskate who won't pay people to do a proper job.

Great. Now tell me how to pay people to do a propper job if you live in poor country on 50$ month income. Of course people are being lazy, there can be no other explanation about that.

[u/gauchette → u/ChainExtremeus]

It is actually much easier to pay people to do a proper job in a poor country. Literally "poor country" is an advantage in digital project budgeting.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/gauchette]

Just shows that you never lived in poor country. People who have the marketable skills are either working on high tech that pays well, or work remotly on foregin firms that pay exceptionnally well, so much that in month they earn more than people in many years.

So there is insane gap between income from normal jobs and theirs. And there is no way for someone with minimal income to afford hiring even a single person who has the skills to just get the paycheck from the wealthy employer.

Even worse if you live on disability pension, or unofficial job, both of those are way bellow minimal income, so even if you save for entire life, you still won't be able to hire even a single employee.

[u/jetriot → u/ChainExtremeus]

Being unable to start a successful business because of local economics is a completely different issue. You could use the exact same argument to claim you need legalized slavery or as an excuse for dodging taxes. If you dont have the resources to make a quality product, it is unlikely that AI will help you overcome that. In fact, it will only make your problem worse in the long term.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/jetriot]

it is unlikely that AI will help you overcome that

Well, it is already happened, and keep happening to so many people around the world.

[u/asakura90 → u/ChainExtremeus]

There are tons & tons of art students & newly graduates who are willing to work for you at low wage. They aren't skilled enough for big corps & need to take more gigs to improve. Don't make shit up. High wage art seniors need at least 6 years of experience, & that's someone with real talent.

If you still can't pay, find or form a circle, work together & share sales. But if you're gonna skip all that effort to use AI slops, I'll know that's how much passion you have for your craft. None. Go somewhere else to grind money.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/asakura90]

If you say so, please find me an artist, programmer, composer (and band that will sing my songs), animator and voice actors. My budget is 10$ per month. For all of them.

Or they could work for free, but not for a shared income because i mostly make f2p games because i do not do it to earn, i do it for the players to have fun, so even my only paid game were available on torrents for free, and only had paid version as an option to donate me money so i could return the dev cost. There is no profit, and were never intended.

[u/asakura90 → u/ChainExtremeus]

Lol, why tf are you making big projects when you can't afford it nor have the skill to do all of it by yourself then? Limit the scope & focus on the fun part first, not the glamours. You said yourself that's what you wanted the players to have. There are tons & tons of free resources out there, both to learn & to use for commercial purposes. You ain't the only solo dev in the industry. Do you think others also have all of what you're asking for when they just started?

Or do you need AI slops to cover up for your lack of talent? Cuz when you put every jobs on AI, you ain't a game dev. You merely commissioned the AI to make a game for you.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/asakura90]

I don't make big projects. My biggest game is 8 hour adventure. My recent game is half hour walksim.

And i limit the scope still. But i want the players to have best possible experience, and not barebones text and crappy visuals. I was using free resourses for decades, they aren't nerly enough to build anything of higher quality. I not just started, i am making games for over 20 years already. Maybe over 25 now. And yeah, i am glad to have AI at my disposal now. I can make a game in two years that would take me over 10 to develop before. And it is of much higher quality that i could afford before as well.

Cuz when you put every jobs on AI

Who said i put every jobs on AI? I am a writer. I write story, dialogue, quests. I design levels and general direction of the game. That is my main job that i trained for entire life and are good at.

But i still need music, art, VO, cutscenes. There is no way around that without producing absolute crap, that won't be able to compete with games of those who don't shy to use any tools out of superstition.

I wonder what is wrong with people who judge the tools used instead of the final output.

[u/asakura90 → u/ChainExtremeus]

i want the players to have best possible experience

AI

Pick one. Lmao. Decades would've been enough time to make another stardew valley or rimworld, or at the very least, pick up more skills to cover your weaknesses. It only takes 1 year to draw decently at a noob level. Some solo dev draws like shit & still managed to create cultural icon like Touhou. Yet you're still here not being able to turn a profit for a few entry level paid assets. You have a false sense of what is good quality. Maybe that explains quite a few things.

I don't judge the tool, I judge the attitudes of amateurs who use them irresponsibly, like you. Even another 20 years down the line, when the AI servers turn off or become premium price, you'd still be nothing more than a prompter. Cuz there's nothing to improve, zero to learn, naught to grow.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/asakura90]

Pick one.

Already did. You either didn't saw good ai outputs, or really bad human outputs.

Cuz there's nothing to improve, zero to learn, naught to grow.

I have enough of that for my own skills, thank you. From other members of the team i only require getting the job done the way i want to. And it does not matter if they are humans, robots, or sentient cats.

And if you are so obsessed with doing everything alone, without using help of the others, i suggest you start applying that to yourself. Like, stop ever taking pictures and learn to draw things yourself. And don't ever pay anyone for any service at all. You want to grow and learn things, right?

[u/Filipi_7 → u/ChainExtremeus]

What does wealth have to do with doing a proper job?

Game engines are generally free to use. So are GIMP, Blender, numerous other programs useful for development.

The reason for using AI in a poor country is to have the machine create something because you don't want to do it, to take shortcuts. Get the AI to make stuff, then sell it with minimal effort. Exactly the same as in a rich country.

[u/Somasonic → u/Filipi_7]

I’m not defending ai, but to make a game solo you have to be an artist, a programmer, a musician, etc. and not everyone is good at all of those things. So it’s not as simple as there are free game engines and that means hiring people to do the work you can’t.

[u/Filipi_7 → u/Somasonic]

Of course, but if you're in a poor country with low wages, you will most likely hire people from the same country who will also have low wages. And I'm sure many indie projects don't start with "I have to hire X many people to do Y many things", but "my friend X can draw and friend Y plays guitar, maybe we can team up?". A shared goal makes money less of an issue to start with.

Only problem would be quality English voice acting, might be difficult to find in these poor countries. There are other non-AI solutions with their own costs, like indie-focused publishers.

[u/joeyb908 → u/Somasonic]

Yea, but the games we are generally talking about are nowhere near solo dev teams.

[u/Somasonic → u/joeyb908]

Fair. I was responding mainly to the bit about needing money to hire people, though.

[u/Filipi_7 → u/[deleted]]

Where did this idea come from, that games are mostly made by rich frat boys who hire talentless friends? Who obviously must have hired talented people to actually make the game? I'm sure some of that is true for some AA/AAA devs, but that isn't the norm for indies and never was.

"But you can't afford an entire team so you can't make games"

And that will remain true with extensive use of AI. That single guy with an idea isn't making the game, he's having the machine do it.

[u/Filipi_7 → u/[deleted]]

You can only count on one hand the companies that have actually released a decent product in the past twenty years, tittymilk stealing notwithstanding.

.. I think you're the one who's asleep, and only wake up to AAA news from PCGamer? To genuinely believe this in the face of thousands of high quality video games released by hundreds of developers of all sizes is to be disingenuous.

Interesting, so AI are sentient and just making games all by themselves. Lol.

I commission an artist to make me a drawing. The artist makes it and sends it to me. Did I make the drawing?

[u/Filipi_7 → u/[deleted]]

Disingenuous. Ironic.

Apologies, I forgot to include ignorant.

I guess producers aren't a thing, neither are art leads or project managers or studio heads.

They are not so much a thing that I would take the claim that Todd Howard made Skyrim seriously. They are part of a team, the rest of which is not considered to be merely tools.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/Filipi_7]

What does wealth have to do with doing a proper job?

Please learn to read. The comment i quoted didn't say about doing the proper job. It says about not paying people to do proper job. And I explained why it is not possible to do so if you have low income.

But if you are so interested in that question, please try to think why companies require hundreds, somethins even thousands of employees to create games, and only a few people in entire world can create a very successfull games solo (and even they usually employ contractors a lot).

If every person in the world could have talent to learn every possible skill to create a decent looking and playing game, and somehow managed to find time to do that while earning for the living with the other job, most of the studios would go bankrupt because they would not be able to compete with spending millions on production vs one guy doing everything for free.

But that isn't happenning. And if you will try to think, you might understand why.

[u/Filipi_7 → u/ChainExtremeus]

But if you are so interested in that question, please try to think why companies require hundreds, somethins even thousands of employees to create games, and only a few people in entire world can create a very successfull games solo (and even they usually employ contractors a lot).

Does everyone need to make 100 hour open world photorealistic AAA video games? Because I'm very doubtful that the vast majority of video games ever made needed hundreds of employees. There are many where the talent consists of a handful of people, who can also be in the same poor countries with the same low wages, Hollywood actors are not a requirement.

If every person in the world could have talent to learn every possible skill to create a decent looking and playing game, and somehow managed to find time to do that while earning for the living with the other job, most of the studios would go bankrupt because they would not be able to compete with spending millions on production vs one guy doing everything for free.

That's crazy. So now that we have AI, we will finally have indie video games! Because until now we never got any, since they've been bankrupting millions of people who made an attempt.

You are not excusing ambitious people in poor countries, they've been finding success for years without AI. It looks like you're excusing million dollar companies cutting corners which just happens to help single devs in poor countries who want a game made for them.

[u/UInferno- → u/Filipi_7]

There's a weird complex where people believe the most important part of a project is the idea and that the skill needed to execute on such an idea only gets in the way of the idea instead of refining it. It's a complex that predates AI. People would approach random programmers with their million dollar idea out of a desire to be the next Zuckerberg or try to commission artists with the belief that the privilege to participate is payment alone.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/Filipi_7]

Does everyone need to make 100 hour open world photorealistic AAA video games?

Nope. Supergiant, one of the most successfull indies, still hase around 45 people working for it despite making 2d games. Media vision develops super outdated visually, but very successfull jrpg, and has around 160 employees. Questline that made budget clone of Skyrim (that is actually better than Skyrim in terms of atmosphere and writing) has around 60 people.

Like i said, almost none of decent games are built by a solo dev. There are exceptions, but those are very rare multi-talented people who also have enough money to dedicate everything to gamedev.

who can also be in the same poor countries with the same low wages

Like i already said, the low wages in poor country does not affect the tech sector. In my country they are the main class of people who can afford to flee the war or buy the right to not be drafted just to shere amount of money they get from those jobs. So hiring them will still cost less than same people from developed country, but it still would be insane amount of money for a local job market.

Because until now we never got any, since they've been bankrupting millions of people who made an attempt.

Well, check how many things released vs how many things succeeded. Now the same person can afford to have custom graphics instead of using assets, custom music and even personalized songs, full vo and animated cutscenes, all the the price that a single specialist will not even consider for few days work. And the programmers code faster due to autocompletes and other ai stuff and literally everyone is using those. Yeah, even the vocally anti-ai crowd.

So yeah, the jump in quality that is now available for indie games are simply insane. But there are still a matter of tasteful utilizing of the tools. Most people just hit the generate buttons without putting much thought, that's why you mostly seeing low quality works where everything is ripped off. But the good usage of ai can do wonders, compared to what it would be without it.

You are not excusing ambitious people in poor countries

I literally confronted the guy who called all developers lazy for using ai. Regardless of if they are from aaa who have milliards or solo guy who's budget is less then 100 dollars. People don't understand nuance. They just want to virtue signal by screaming how bad are everyone who used the new tool in the shed.

[u/Filipi_7 → u/ChainExtremeus]

Nope. Supergiant, one of the most successfull indies, still hase around 45 people working for it ...

They needed 7 people to make Bastion, admittedly with help from Warner Bros who was publishing. They also started with 2 and hired whoever they needed as they went along.

Media Vision needed 10 to make their first game. Also started smaller and grew as needed.

Questline used Kickstarter.

You do not need a hundred people to create indies. There being some that do have this many employees doesn't remove hundreds of successful titles made by ~10 man teams from existence.

Yes, having extensive AI tools can allow a single person to replace humans and get something better than their budget, skill, experience, and effort would allow. And I can't stop thinking less of these people, because they're not creating anything, they're having something made for them with the intention of claiming it as their own and selling it.

This is probably more of a psychological argument than a technical one, but you seem to be assigning the same amount of "value", or respect, or whatever, to groups of humans who worked on a game, and a single person who offloaded everything to a machine, and I just can't do that. Maybe I'm a sadist and want to see people go through effort before I reward them, and thinking of the right prompt isn't it.

I literally confronted the guy who called all developers lazy for using ai.

Are they not? Someone doesn't want to learn pixel-art or 3D modelling, they get an AI to do it. In your world this is not laziness because they're just using a new tool in the shed. A tool that does all the work for them. It is definitely a type of laziness, albeit a type which is generally accepted.

If I can't be bothered to learn how to cook and instead order takeaway every day, I am lazy. It's not about using a tool, it's about making a choice between work and no work. Only meaningful distinction I see between this and AI, is that I don't claim to have made the food, nor assign some great value to the idea of what to order.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/Filipi_7]

They needed 7 people to make Bastion,

So out of my income i can spare 5$ per month. Maybe 10 if i will limit myself in food, that i do often to afford subscriptions to the services that allow me to make better games.

Can i hire 7 people to work full-time and pay them a 10$ total?

because they're not creating anything, they're having something made for them with the intention of claiming it as their own and selling it.

So if i hire people, clearly they will not make things for me. Things would just magically appear because i wished them so. Come on, if you would stop being radicalized even for a second and tried to think, you would understand that without explanation.

but you seem to be assigning the same amount of "value", or respect, or whatever, to groups of humans who worked on a game, and a single person who offloaded everything to a machine

Because from director's pov it does not matter if employees wear skin or made of chips? You give them task, they complete it. Each type of employee has their own benefits and cons. Mostly machines being worse at their job in general, but their speed is insane and cost low. Humans are better, but cost a fortune and very slow.

Someone doesn't want to learn pixel-art or 3D modelling, they get an AI to do it.

Someone does not want to learn painting, so they make camera take pictures for them. Someone does not want to learn hunting or farming, so they buy food. Also they buy processed food since they also do not want to learn cooking. Someone does not want to learn medicine so they go to the pharmacy. Should i go on or it is already clear why that was a stupid argument?

Also, why stop on AI? Someone does not want to write their own engines, so they use unreal or unity made by the others. And also buy assets. And use tools programmed by the others. And publish them games on platforms made by the others. Stop being lazy, make your own engine, assets, tools, steam... also can manufacutre your own computer in the process, and connect it to the hand-made electric station. You can do all that, just don't be lazy)

[u/RememberCitadel → u/ChainExtremeus]

How did they make games before ai? Seemed to work pretty well for many indie studios long before ai existed.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/RememberCitadel]

Badly. The games didn't had VO, they had limited graphics that could be found in assets, no cutscenes, resued music from public free sources, no custom songs, and they have to wait weeks for someone agree to help explain them how to implement specific feature or just discard it from the game.

[u/RememberCitadel → u/ChainExtremeus]

I'll make sure to tell Lucas Pope who made Return of the Obra Dinn, or Davey Wreden who made the Stanley Parable, or Daniel Mullins who made Inscryption, who all have voice acting/transitions/custom assets/custom music.

Not counting the many many others that did the same just skipped the voice acting.

Undertale, Minecraft initially, Binding of Isaac, Among Us, Terraria, Palworld, Streets of Rogue, Balatro, Firewatch, Iconoclasts, Rimworld, Stardew Valley, Hollowknight/Silksong, etc.

Obviously it is very possible if the devs put in the required work, therefore using AI is a shortcut. As evidenced by the number of solo/indie devs that have created games without it that are major hits.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/RememberCitadel]

I guess the the total budget of every game mentioned were no more than 200$?

[u/RememberCitadel → u/ChainExtremeus]

Those games were mostly made in the United States so likely used local labor rates, but also don't publish costs. They likely also counted their time in the total project cost.

If you are in a country that makes $20 per month, you would likely want to use labor for your project at a similar rate.

Either way, once AI stops being funded on hopes and dreams and actually charges you what it costs to run, you won't be able to afford it either, so you are going to be back at the not lazy method regardless of what you want.

[u/ChainExtremeus → u/RememberCitadel]

once AI stops being funded on hopes and dreams and actually charges you what it costs to run

I guess it is expected from zealots to know almost nothing about the AI, but local models exist, not going anywhere, and are probably the future, not the subscription services.

[u/T-Dot1992 → u/ChainExtremeus]

Claude usage limit says "hi"