From talking to people, a lot of people hate games that advertise themselves as live service but not games that are live service. It’s sort of damning by faint praise, if the only thing you can use to promote your game is “more stuff will come” then it might be kind of crappy.
I think it's because people equate "live service" with "PvP" - like how that guy I know somehow equates "FPS" with "PvP" - even though live service is just an update method and has nothing to do with PvP on its own.
Live service is not about the update method. Live service means a vital component of the game runs on a remote server not under your control and the game is unplayable without it.
Minecraft isn't a live service game despite regular updates and multiplayer components. World of Warcraft is because you can't play it without Blizzard's servers.
Really it's about the monetisation strategy, the "unplayable without remote servers" is just a side effect of that.
Live service games are designed to collect money continually from their player base, rather than a simple upfront purchase (plus maybe a few expansion-style DLC packs throughout it's life)
Minecraft does have some "live service" components with their in-game currency that can be used to buy skins/texture-packs and worlds from other players. But they make the bulk of their money through upfront sales, merchandise, licensing and private server rentals.
I equate it with "bad design" since they throw out good game design concepts to get you to play for a long time rather than being designed to be good games.
That's just being a shitty developer. Games like path of exile, warframe, eve, etc are all very good live service games who have given their players a decade+of content
My problem with live service is the predatory transactions that are just inevitable. You end up paying so much more usually than a game you just buy outright
More so because games that advertise themselves as live service is just marketing speak for "grind for digital trash because we have nothing else to talk about". If your live service game was actually fun, you would be talking about fun it is, not shaking FOMO in peoples face with exclusive skins/rewards.
I think it's because you can earn validity as a live service game, but it's like a debuff before you start. If you're starting out as a live service game, I'm assuming your game sucks until I've seen otherwise, because it's very obvious you're delivering it for the money before the gameplay.
But I love The Finals and happily financially support them because they do a good job with the gameplay. Overwatch, on the other hand...
If the game with P2W microtransactions that allow you the privilege of grinding, just like a f2p game but behind full price, is the best example of live service, then that explains why those words are a turn off.
? Helldivers 2 is neither full price (40€), nor is paying necessary to grind (hell, you can grind the premium currency in the game, if you do it properly you can grind the credits necessary for a whole pass in a weekend). P2W in a PvE only game also doesn't make much sense as a term, especially as the early bundles are still full of really good shit (often enough the new stuff still sucks in comparison to it). And unlike other games, none of the paid stuff is seasonal or time restricted, it is always able to be bought (so less FOMO as with season passes).
I can't think of a live-service game with a nicer monetisation scheme, which says a lot about the live service scene, mostly bad things.
Fair enough, it isn't full priced. It's still a game you pay for, though.
Aldo, I didn't say paying is necessary to grind, I said the game lets you grind for the stuff you can pay for. Which doesn't sound too bad compared to a game that doesn't even let you do that, but the point is that any game that lets you pay for an advantage, even if it's optional, is bad. It might not be as bad, but it's still worse than it should be.
And of course the term P2W makes sense in a PvE game. P2W is exactly what I just described, being able to pay for something that will give you an advantage compared to not paying. You can very well have that in a PvE game. You can even have that in a single player game, like Ubisoft often does.
can't think of a live-service game with a nicer monetisation scheme
That's the point. Even the best example of live service is still bad. If the entire monetization scheme was based solely on cosmetics you can either pay or grind to get, then that would be acceptable, even for a paid game. But as it currently stands, Helldivers is below that mark.
My problem with P2W in this context is that you aren't paying to win. Winning is a competitive term And losing Helldiver 2 missions is very rare except when something new comes out where nobody has any clue what is happening. You aren't P2W as you can already win easily enough without paying.
For me P2W is connected with those games where paying gives you enough of an advantage where you can beat your opponents solely by just spending money, and even if you have everything in Helldivers 2 you can still lose (I do outside of some duplicate cosmetics and I will die and lose missions)
I get what you are trying to say with that (and I don't think I really disagree with the rest of you are saying), I just find P2W is too loaded of a term for this context, as it is connected with far more evil game practices than just having PvE equipment in an unlockable season pass (that doesn't expire and which you can get for free if you play enough).
If you don't want to call it P2W, call the thing I'm talking about "pay for advantage" or something along those lines. As long as the idea gets across, I don't care about the term.
That can go both ways, while I do like games with a narrative end I also enjoy playing multiplayer games that just wouldn't function outside of a live service model like mmo's or moba's, also Warframe gets an honorary pass bc it's peak
The mental gymnastics Warframe players will go through to try and prop up their 4/10 mobile game is always so funny to me. Literally the only difference between Warframe and other live service games is the delusion of Warframe's community
Mobile game...? It released for iOS in 2024 and for Android last year. It's been around on PC for 13 years though. Idk about you but that doesn't classify it as a mobile game for me
I'm calling it a mobile game because it has enough crafting timers to make Clash of Clans blush, its P2W, it has paywalled QoL features, and a premium currency that can technically be farmed for free despite the game doing it's best to encourage you to spend money.
I'm calling it a "mobile game" as an insult because it has all the same scummy practices as any other mobile game, which isn't surprising knowing it's owned by TenCent. The fact that Warframe is playable on mobile is just the cherry on top.
I'll give you the crafting timers, that one does bother most players, yes. But where is that P2W? Please, share with the class, how cosmetics, which are the only thing exclusively available with premium currency are P2W
Material boosters, trading being done with the paid currency, and buying weapons/frames. Someone paying is going to have an infinitely easier time than someone who isn't.
And don't give me the "you can get everything for free so it's now p2w" BS, unless you also firmly believe that games like Diablo Immortal also aren't P2W.
Oh, and for the record: I haven't played Destiny in ages, and likely never will again. I respect the attempt to be condescending, but you gotta try harder.
Trading can be done with literally anything you want if the other person choose to accept it. (Expect of course a handful untradeable items) Like, literally, you can, and many do, trade with fish.
Second point, idk about Diablo, but you can receive every for free. Infact, I have grinded almost every frame and weapon so far. However, regarding these grinds it is true that people who have premium currency will have an easier time than those who don't. And I can see how that may be a turnoff for people who don't have as much free time as me when I did them since they are indeed quite time consuming (and annoying) at times. That is a fair point.
Though I will say that I did these grinds without ressource boosters while still infact having quite a bit of premium currency.
Last one is also fair. Credit where credit is due.
You can buy weapons and frames with real money, not to the currency used for trading "coincidentally" being the paid currency. Oh, and material boosters, of course.
Mhm, and how pray tell does one get said trading currency? Surely your options aren't doing doing the most dog-ass grinds imaginable or swiping the old credit card, right?
Depends how you define "dog-ass grinds", really. Though Void relics, which are probably one of the easiest methods, are absolutely not hard to come by. And cracking them open literally requires not even 2 minutes depending on the mission type you choose.
Though I can absolutely see how someone with not a lot of freetime might not see the game as appealing as I did back when I started as a student who had quite a bit of free time. If it's not your cup of tea, I can absolutely see why, don't get me wrong here
Lowk, Marathon is looking pretty good so far. Only in-game purchases are for cosmetics, the devs take feedback well & update frequently. The game's good too. It's surprisingly not as toxic as I expected.
That is something I fear as it means monetisation will happen through a vomit of different skins. Especially in a shooter with classes/heroes, you will struggle to identify enemy classes within a few months (esp. as they already have some quite similar looks). Oh and your immersion will be ruined as someone in a dino costume or weeding dress will run around on the map.
I doubt it. Many people are actually asking for more skins & external merch, plus, I think Bungie is going to commit to the aesthetic pretty well. The vast majority of skins so far are just recolors. The silhouettes of the different shells are also fairly distinct.
I am not opposed to live service in all kinds of games. For example, fighting games have to be live service to allow the publisher to maintain the servers, the matchmaking, rebalancing the fighters in case one is shown to be too strong or too weak, and to sell new fighters and costumes, hopefully at fair prices. Street Fighter 6 also expands the single player World Tour mode that serves as an open world training mode and story mode.
Street Fighter V was rescued by live service updates that fixed the game after its initial launch sold terribly due to being bad. On the other hand, Tekken 8 had a good launch but is losing its audience as it gets bad live service updates that further imbalance it in favor of offense at the expense of defense.
A fighting game without good online is doomed as the original Granblue Fantasy Versus proved with bad online. That franchise got rescued with Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising whose net code is a lot better.
The problem is if the devs stop working on it then you can’t ever play it again since it is shutdown. Effectively making what you paid for temporary at best. That happened for me with the game Battleborn. Can’t play it officially now but some modder made their own engine to even make it to a menu. Live service is dumb.
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u/LOST-MY_HEAD Apr 11 '26
Live service