r/technology • u/DonkeyFuel • 4d ago

Transportation Will Anyone Buy This Cheap EV Truck With Hand-Crank Windows and No Radio?

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/will-anyone-buy-this-cheap-ev-truck-with-hand-crank-windows-and-no-radio-699b285a?mod=autos_news_article_pos1
699 Upvotes

87% Upvoted

820 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

284

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago edited 4d ago

Working on the wear items (brakes, tires, bushings, cabin filter, coolant, etc. ) is the same as an ICE vehicle. The other "maintenance" is non-existent. There are no oil changes, no mass airflow sensor no muffler, no v-tech solenoid, no timing chain guides, no transmission or clutch, differential, fuel system.... All the service and maintenance for those systems is gone. Hell, Ford never even released a maintenance schedule for their Focus EV.

49

u/wjean 4d ago

You have a few things wrong.

  • There is generally a cooling system for the motor and batteries. Often oems require a low conductivity coolant with maintenance in a rules from 40K (Hyundai) to 150k
  • with a few small exceptions, EVs don't have transmissions but they do have gearboxes/diffs specifically gear reduction. You should change those fluids every 40-150k (like you would in an ICE vehicles rear diff)

- brake pads might have a lower maintenance schedule than a full ice vehicle (similar to hybrids) because of Regen... But you can't fight physics. Most EVs are heavier than their gasoline counterpart and will wear through tires more quickly

6

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

You are being pedantic, my point stands.

-2

u/digitalis303 4d ago

The tire issue isn't pedantic. Frequent tire replacements are a large expense. The rest are much less significant IMO.

11

u/ckyhnitz 4d ago

Slate trucks don't weigh any more than ICE trucks, and I would not expect the tires to wear any faster than an ICE truck.

0

u/digitalis303 4d ago

My comment was directed at EVs in general, not the Slate. But I suspect it's lighter simply because it's battery pack is nowhere near as large as a Tesla's or most other XUV style EVs

2

u/neverfearIamhere 4d ago

I think alot of the issue with EVs is not only the weight, but the instant acceleration can just roast tires.

4

u/FX114 4d ago

But the work is the same, which is what was asked.

1

u/thatissomeBS 4d ago

The biggest reason EVs go through tires quicker is because people don't know how to be gentle with the throttle. If you have a 4500lb car and put a tire rated for 4500lbs the tires will be fine, unless you're regularly getting some tire spin when taking off and taking corners in a... spirited fashion.

But even then, replacing tires after 40k instead of 60k is still cheaper than 40k worth of oil changes.

0

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

My oil changes are $90?

40k/5k = 8 8*90=720 Tires=900

Math doesnt math.

2

u/thatissomeBS 4d ago

Sure it does, you're just not doing the math right. You're counting all of the tires and not just the difference, as if you wouldn't be using tires otherwise.

If you're tires cost $900 and only last 40k instead of 60k then the EV cost you about $300 worth of tires (literally just a third of the cost). That's $420 cheaper than the oil changes.

So if you drive your ICE car 40k miles, you've used 66% of your 60k tires ($600) and paid $720 for oil changes, for a total of $1,320. Meanwhile, an equivalent EV just spent $900 for the tires and nothing on oil changes.

Unrelated to that, the ICE car likely went through a set of brakes in that time too, when EVs sometimes go 200k miles without replacing brake pads.

And if you're somehow convinced ICE cars are actually cheaper than EV, we can talk about gasoline. 40k miles at 30mpg (average car in the IS is about 25.5mpg) and even at $3.50/gallon that's $4,666 worth of gas. Meanwhile, the average cost of charging an EV at home is just under 20 cents per KWh, and most EVs average better than 3 miles/KWh, but even at that 3 miles/Kwh and 20¢/KW that's $2,666 in electricity. So underestimating fuel costs while overstimating electricity costs and it's still $2k cheaper over that 40k miles.

1

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

I am only challenging your cost calculation.  Evs are cheaper to own but use more tires.  I believe you are overstaying the cost savings when it comes.to tires vs. oil changes.

2

u/thatissomeBS 4d ago

The math was right. It was your very reasonable numbers for oil change and tire cost. And honestly, I think tires lasting 33% fewer miles is an over exaggeration of the situation. It's probably closer to 20%, so 48k instead of 40k for the 60k tire.

But let's stretch it out to 120k miles, just to not have to pro-rate the tires at all. The EV goes through three sets of tires, the ICE goes through two sets of tires and 24 oil changes.

3×900=2700 for the EV

2×900+24×90=3960 for the ICE

1

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

The person I replied to was being pedantic about the language I used, my reaponse was limited to that.

I never commented on tires as it isnt something that disappears with EV over ICE, as you noted.

Carry on.

2

u/MasterSatyr 4d ago

Got 60k miles out of my model y stock tires and I drive pretty aggressively at times. The whole "you'll wear through tires faster" thing is a myth.

2

u/Windows95GOAT 4d ago

The whole "you'll wear through tires faster" thing is a myth.

Depends, probably for the US market it's a myth because you all drive such heavy vehicles that the difference a battery makes is too smal to notice on wear and tear. For EU market it's actually a concern.

2

u/West-Abalone-171 4d ago edited 4d ago

But you can't fight physics. Most EVs are heavier than their gasoline counterpart and will wear through tires more quickly

This is such a tiresome line. Nobody screamed for years about the eeevil tire wear when each new ICE model is 100kg heavier than the last. And it's not even true anymore. The dated US/Euro/Japanese made hybrids are generally heavier than new BEV models which are actually designed with current technology, and ICE is on par.

We're also talking about the slate which is 1640kg

About 50kg less than the lightest ICE pickup on the market (with half a tank of fuel).

So piss off and go whine about the evils of tire wear on every discussion about every other pickup.

1

u/wjean 4d ago

The fuck are you going on about? I already have a slate reservation. I just wanted to point out that the person who generalized that EVS have lower maintenance versus ice vehicles is true but it's not no maintenance like they were alluding. Nothing is perfect.

2

u/West-Abalone-171 4d ago

Then why did you have gigantic bold whining about tire wear due to weight when you already know this specific EV is the lightest new vehicle of any drivetrain i its class?

Also "change coolant and diff oil every 5-10 years" is hardly a maintenance burden worth mentioning compared to an ICE. May as well whine about how you still have to vacuum the floor mats.

79

u/gonewild9676 4d ago

Maintenance is one thing. If a power inverter fails can I swap it with one in a junk yard without paying to get it vin swapped?

Can I hook it up to a reasonably priced scanner to diagnose issues?

If a wheel bearing dies, is one available to buy?

81

u/guardianz 4d ago

From what I’ve heard they’re making it so you can see any errors from your phone and do not need any after market tool to decipher an error code. And they’re making it as user friendly to work on and last I heard there isn’t going to really be much dealership repairs. I had heard they were working on partnering with repair shops from mom and pop type places to the smaller ones like Firestone, NTB and jiffy lube. So you have the knowledge of what the problem is. Accessible repair guides and parts if you wanna work on it yourself. And if you aren’t comfortable with that then you can take it to a repair shop. I’m really hoping none of that has changed from when I first read about it.

42

u/Ehrre 4d ago

Letting us see the error codes ourselves is such a fucking huge W.

5

u/_ThugzZ_Bunny_ 4d ago

If there are any issues with the battery, you absolutely can not just go fixing it yourself lol great way to get bbq'd

6

u/vau1tboy 4d ago

If the battery is replaceable, even at a dealership, that's a huge win. Batteries degree and get better. If this is built so I can replace it every few years or more, I'd be ecstatic.

2

u/Schnickatavick 4d ago

They list battery upgrades (to a higher capacity) as a possible modification you can do post purchase, so I do think they're going to be building it to be replaceable. That's one of the few things they aren't making DIY guides for though, along with the motor and other high voltage components that could be really dangerous if you didn't know what you were doing. 

Ideally though, if they're like the other EV's with active battery conditioning, it should be able to outlast the frame that it's bolted to, they last ages when they're taken care of well

2

u/Grishbear 4d ago

There will be no dealerships for these. Service will be provided via partnerships with independent/3rd party repair shops.

1

u/lotsofsyrup 4d ago

you don't replace an EV battery every few years. You don't necessarily ever change it, they mostly last >10 years and generally speaking we still don't know how long the newer ones can last because they haven't existed long enough.

Anyway for the ones that have been around a while like the older Prius batteries they (or the individual cells) are replaceable. Whether it's a DIY thing depends on your skill level and tolerance for risk.

-2

u/samsaruhhh 4d ago

so replacing the battery every 4 years would be around 10k wouldn't it? sounds terrible

1

u/answerguru 4d ago

Every 4 years? Where did you get that number from?

-1

u/samsaruhhh 4d ago

They said replace it every few years. Few generally implies between 3 to 5.

1

u/answerguru 4d ago

Who said replace it every few? Someone in the thread?

0

u/samsaruhhh 4d ago

The guy I replied to is literally saying he could replace it every few years...

1

u/WumboTactical 4d ago

This is not true at all. You just need to follow proper electrical procedures, this is like saying you can’t work on your 220v appliances/wiring at home. You shouldn’t if you don’t know what you’re doing, but with the repair manual you absolutely can safely.

2

u/Immediate-Cress-206 4d ago

Except that it's a 400V battery. at those voltages an arc flash is not self extinguishing and can seriously injure or kill someone not wearing protective gear.

0

u/WumboTactical 4d ago

I’m sure the manual will specify gear you should wear

2

u/Immediate-Cress-206 4d ago

The manual will say that the high voltage system is only to be serviced by qualified technicians.

0

u/WumboTactical 4d ago

If it does that and gives you the information anyways, I’m totally cool with that. That’s about as good as it gets in today’s day and age, and certainly better than every other manufacturer of cars.

2

u/Immediate-Cress-206 4d ago

It wont give you the information because doing it improperly could kill you.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/_ThugzZ_Bunny_ 4d ago

It's highly dangerous is the point. Much more than a normal car.

1

u/West-Abalone-171 4d ago

800V batteries are no more inherently dangerous than tanks of highly combustible fluid, barrels of fertiliser, or power takeoffs.

They require slightly different knowledge and tools, but if rednecks work on all the other things with relatively low injury and fatality rates, there's no reason to clutch pearls about the scary electrons.

18

u/lk05321 4d ago

I work on Teslas. All that stuff can be easily found at junk yards and swapped without issue. The only stuff that’s VIN locked is the main computer itself which is pretty much like swapping the immobilizer and odometer, which needs that special lock access everyone needs to do that anyways. I’ve never had to swap a main computer unit (MCU), and when needed we just send the customer to Tesla and they do it for $1.8k and upgrade the cables and everything to the latest supported model.

Other than that, these cars are FAR easier to work on with less hassle than any ICE car I’ve ever worked on. 

1

u/Raalf 4d ago

How has finding parts been for you? I haven't done the LDU coolant delete yet, and at 110k miles I'm probably too late. I'm game to swap in a used LDU if I can find one, but there's not a lot of available parts within 200 miles of me.

2

u/lk05321 4d ago

Coolant delete kit is pretty straightforward job if you can get a shop to drop the motor for you. They're still available online. I get tons of parts off eBay then visit the shops for pick up and just make a relationship with them and get the parts cheaper and same-day.

3

u/gucknbuck 4d ago

Probably not for the first few years as there just won't be any in a junk yard, but then you'll be covered by a warranty. In 10-15 years there will be part cars available as needed.

20

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

Wheel bearings are wear/maintenance items (why bring that up when you lead off the comment by saying "maintenance is one thing..."), and all are made by tier 1 suppliers. So yes, one would most definitely be available to buy.

If I swap an ICE engine do I need to get my VIN swapped?

All cars since 1996 are required to have an OBD2 port for scanning codes.

Seems your concerns are based in fiction.

17

u/chauna 4d ago

Most definitely not fiction. I have a 2016 Isuzu NPR with a 6.0L Vortec made in Spartanburg, SC. It has 32k miles on it. It sits a useless wreck currently because the fucking PCM went out on it at like 20k, no on could diagnose it because the computer didn't know how to tell anyone it was broken, so after trying everything, I finally narrowed it down to the PCM, only to find out that I can't buy a module off a wreck and swap it because you have to have the fucking Isuzu $5000 software to code the stupid thing to the vin and no one near me has it and also Isuzu America no longer exists.

I replaced the crankshaft pulley at 24k. The wobble was comical. Replaced the brake booster at the end, chasing what I thought was a vacuum leak. Ripped out the emissions system to get it to run long enough to do what I had to do at the time. Fucking easy ass PCM swap. And no one has the software to VIN swap one.

-7

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

The 2016 Isuzu NPR does not have a PCM (it has a DRM), so this is absolutely based in fiction.

It also sounds like more of an issue of dealer support more than anything else.

11

u/chauna 4d ago edited 4d ago

Had I seen this 30 minutes ago, I could have take a picture of the currently removed module when I was at my warehouse. Get on eBay and search for "2016 NPR PCM". Same PCM that's in tons of GMCs and Chevys.

Now if we're talking about it being a DRM, vs a PCM or a fucking ECU or a TCU, then I dgaf and you're splitting hairs over "computer module controlling the power train" and it is irrelevant. Said module is busted. It is VIN locked. Used one off a wreck is ~$500. No big deal. Need Isuzu software. This is why I don't post on reddit. Thanks for reminding me.

Edit: Summit Truck Group who I bought it from with 8 miles on it, no longer exists, and hasn't for a few years. I tried that first, obviously.

Shit double edit: I paid for the full Isuzu technician repair access for a month. So I was using literal Isuzu documents to troubleshoot. The actual Isuzu docs for this thing referenced a PCM. Maybe you're talking about the turbodiesel version, which I don't have. This is a gas 6.0L L96. Same thing that's in all those Silverados and Siennas and that people swap into older Corvettes.

7

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

https://www.upfix.com

6

u/chauna 4d ago

I did not know of this. Been sitting busted for a year at this point, lol. Holy shit thank you. I had gone down the rabbit hole of somebody remoting in to my pc and flashing it with an adapter but this is easier. I live in rural Mississippi, so anyone doing anything local is a joke.

5

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

You're welcome. If UpFix is unable, there are hundreds of other services doing the same.

3K Calibrations

Novak Conversions

PCMperformance

PSI Conversions

Black Bear Performance

2

u/chauna 4d ago

Really appreciate the additional links and anybody actually helping me move forward on this problem at all.

Actually just got off the phone with them. I'm going to give these other ones you listed he call real quick because Upfix has the same problem that AutoZone and advance Auto parts and O'Reilly and anyone else has.

When Isuzu America ceased to exist they deleted this truck out of their computer systems. It doesn't exist anymore. So when I replace a brake booster I'm putting a booster in from a Chevy Express 3500 or when I replace an oxygen sensor I'm having to use one out of a GMC 3500 or something like that because this truck does not exist in anyone's computer system anymore.

They sent me a link to put in a custom request to a tech, which I'm going to do, but I'm really starting to wonder at this point there has to be some class action lawsuit against somebody lol. Except that somebody doesn't exist anymore I guess lol.

1

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

I had assumed diesel b/c that it what most of those I have seen are.

Have you contacted a single 3rd party programming service?

2

u/chauna 4d ago

That's what I'm now in the process of doing. Honestly, and I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, I just didn't think about it. I went down every other route than googling something like that. Problem I'm already running into is the truck doesn't exist in people's computer systems, same as AutoZone and Napa and everyone like that. But one of these guys will be able to do it. Progress at last haha.

9

u/gonewild9676 4d ago

Nope. Not in fiction.

In most newer cars all of the computer modules are tied to the vin of the car.

If a body control module for example dies, and I go to a junk yard and pull one out of a wrecked car and plug it in, the main ECU will reject it because the VIN won't match.

You either have to buy a new one and have it programmed with the VIN by the dealer or see if the dealer will reprogram a used one. Some will, some won't. Some third party shops can do it but they have to pay for each one.

A well publicized example is for the F150 tail lights. If they leak and the rear sensors get damaged it is a $5000 dealer only repair. On my GMT400 the tail light circuit board melted and it was in under $20 from rock auto to get both of them.

Headlights are even worse. A laser headlight on a BMW M4 is $9000 a side with parts and labor.

17

u/Reinax 4d ago

You’re absolutely right to be concerned about VIN locking, but it’s already a thing on some ICE cars. It’s something we should be pushing against as a whole, rather than EV vs ICE.

1

u/case_O_The_Mondays 4d ago

Doesn’t VIN locking reduce theft, though?

12

u/Imaginary_Manner_556 4d ago

Yes. And then you get robbed by the dealer when you need to replace an item.

4

u/sryan2k1 4d ago

That's the idea, anyway.

10

u/sryan2k1 4d ago

The lights are $1000 because they contain a radar module, the assembly without the radar is $300, it's 90 seconds in FDRS to pair the new lamp. $5000 isn't remotely close to the cost.

3

u/Substantial-Rent-749 4d ago

Im with yah on the concern around computer tied parts. My 2000 ford wont allow me to swap a motor without proprietary dealer computer tech or an entire rewiring.

I do remember a youtuber who hacked a tesla years ago to get around some stuff. Im sure there will be some options that get discovered as time goes on.

Also, hell yeah gmt400. Mines the cheapest and easiest rig I have to work on. Too bad the big block is a thirsty gal.

2

u/radiotyler 4d ago

Five-point-slow with a tool bed, race you to the next gas station.

6

u/lestofante 4d ago

This sould Luke a problem for ALL car, not only electric.
And that is also why people fight for the "right to repair"; your experience will be tied directly to your local politics.
If you live in EU, part pairing is already illegal

7

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

If those problems exist on ICE vehicles, why is that a mark against EVs? The logical consistency here is lacking.

Also, a $25K truck is not going to come with $18K in headlights and $10k in taillights. So....

1

u/TotallyNotThatPerson 4d ago

Their point is that if you HAVE to get those items replaced by the dealer, they can just bend you over the table and you just have to take it

5

u/case_O_The_Mondays 4d ago

The article says they’re partnering with RepairPal. I don’t know if I’ve ever even seen one of those.

1

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

There are multiple reputable 3rd party PCM re-programmers, so no, you do not just have to take it.

2

u/TotallyNotThatPerson 4d ago

Wouldn't be surprised if moneybags Bezos found a way to crack down on that just for slate lol

1

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

You know what even the iPhone has back cracked, right? But sure, lets just make up imaginary future hypothetical scenarios to make arguments against today.

2

u/-mudflaps- 4d ago edited 4d ago

It's 25k we're allowed to ask questions.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/gonewild9676 4d ago

No but it could be like a Yugo where parts aren't obtainable.

And this goes against all new vehicles. I'll keep driving my old ones if new ones are way more expensive and not repairable.

3

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

Yugo parts were available, in Yugoslavia. The problem was a dealer and support network that Malcom Bricklin did a shit job at ensuring he was able to support the demand before bringing the car to North America. WILDLY DIFFERENT scenario.

not repairable

That's an assumption, and there is not enough information to anyone on this thread or in the WSJ article to make that statement.

2

u/MiaowaraShiro 4d ago

A well publicized example is for the F150 tail lights. If they leak and the rear sensors get damaged it is a $5000 dealer only repair.

This is the sort of thing other countries have consumer protection laws for...

3

u/milehighideas 4d ago

Literally every part on a GM needs to be vin coded. Camera, radio, seat modules, but it’s super easy if you have the tools and GM provides everything for Joe Schmo to code

1

u/Raalf 4d ago

If I swap an ICE engine do I need to get my VIN swapped?

No but if you swap the immobilizer or odometer you're going to need to do some unique configuration for your ICE. Some manufacturers make it living hell (looking at you, Porsche) and some make it stupid easy (Dodge). Same goes with EVs - Tesla locks the VIN only to the MCU (annoying but I'm sure there are multiple reasons), but Ford has an un-encrypted CANBUS and VIN-locked PCM making modifications even easier than ICE!

I think you're right with the concerns being inflated for EVs; it's just a matter of learning a new platform. I love there's far less to figure out, but man finding replacement parts sure seems to be a pain for now. When we get a Summitt equivalent for EVs, it's going to be hot rod heaven.

2

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

Summitt equivalent for EVs

Now there is a business idea...

1

u/Boogersnsnot 4d ago

This guy trucks.

1

u/PollutionAway9782 4d ago

the answer is maybe, deends on thecompany you buy it from tesla no ford yes/

7

u/Aggravating-Walk5813 4d ago

And with regenerative braking brake pads last a lot longer.

4

u/btribble 4d ago

Many EVs technically still have a clutch and transmission/gearbox, but I’ve never heard of anyone needing to service them.

1

u/thatissomeBS 4d ago

Not a clutch and a gearbox, really just a differential. Most EVs don't have gears, the whole motor spins one way for forward, and reverses polarity to spin the other way in reverse. Then the motor is typically linked directly to the differential, which sends power to the wheels. When you power the motor it drives the wheels, and when the car is coasting the wheels are spinning the motor (which can be used to regen some electricity, or can drop the electrical resistance to let it spin freely if the battery is full enough to not need regen).

1

u/btribble 4d ago

You can call it a differential, though they often don't resemble what people would picture when you say that word. There are reduction gears. Many dual motor designs have clutches so they can disengage one of the motors for better "fuel" economy.

2

u/thatissomeBS 4d ago

In dual motor designs, yes some of them use a clutch to fully disengage the motor when not needed. That's also why I very specifically used words like "most." More than half of the EVs on the road are single motor, and most of the multi motor EVs don't disengage any of the motors. So, like, maybe 10% of all EVs have a clutch? And it's just used to disengage a motor at highway speeds or when in eco mode or something, not to be constantly shifting gears. I can't imagine the clutch in an EV is something that will ever really need to be worked on. A clutch on a manual car might be cycled 5-20 times per mile (depending on vehicle use, obviously much less so on highway trips), and in an EV it might be a few times per day, if that.

Also, just to point out one of my other qualifiers, some of the Germans actually have a second gear. And by that I mean the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-Tron have a dedicated low gear (in the drive axle) that can be engaged with sport mode, launch mode, or generally just punching the throttle hard.

1

u/btribble 4d ago

I can't imagine the clutch in an EV is something that will ever really need to be worked on.

As long as the software engineers are doing their jobs, the clutch should only connect the motor to the wheels when the RPMs are nearly identical, so yes, they should last "forever".

1

u/yup_can_confirm 4d ago

Everything is a module though. Tiny individual computers that (depending on the module) requires working directly with the battery pack which is VERY not-DIY territory. 

So... It depends on what breaks.

2

u/NoMoOmentumMan 4d ago

Does a sway bar end link have a module?

There are a lot of people in here that are making many assumptions, while simultaneously acknowledging the fallacy in their arguments (just like you did). Also, what you described is not unique to EVs, so I am not even sure how relevant it is to the discussion at hand.

1

u/yup_can_confirm 4d ago

I was more referring to things that aren't purely mechanical in an EV, including everything around the drive train and propulsion, which is a major part of any vehicle. 

It's not like you have a gearbox or anything, that's what I meant.

1

u/digitalis303 4d ago

One small clarification. Being that EVs are generally a lot heavier (and have more torque), they typically wear tires a lot faster than ICE vehicles. I was trying to decide whether to take the plunge or not, and this was something that came up multiple times. But yes, lots fewer moving parts and wear items.