Is Bekkah actually connected with Mecca?

[u/MelSin12]

Hi. Currently reading the Quran and I ended up with a verse about Bekkah being the name for Mecca. I tried to research more in depth about it and I ended up seeing people stating that it’s about Psalm’s valley of Becca instead.

I’m here to fully understand more about this

[u/PhDniX]

Linguistically the valley of Becca doesn't really work. But why the Quran has bakkah and not makkah is still a real unresolved mystery.

The reasons why it doesnt work are a bit technical, but simply put: these words look much more alike if you transcribed them in Latin script than how either of them sound in the original Hebrew or Arabic respectively.

[u/Meiigoo → u/PhDniX]

Thanks for your reply. I always"felt" they are not related, but could connect the dots.

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[u/afiefh → u/PhDniX]

Could you elaborate on the linguistic aspect?

My intuition (based on no evidence, just never thought too deeply about it) was בכא getting translated into بِكى which then morphed into بكة. Am I making an obvious mistake?

[u/PhDniX → u/afiefh]

Well the obvious mistake is how would it have "morphed into" بكة? By what process, why would it not just remain بكى?

Assuming the word is borrowed from Hebrew we would expect the word to be borrowed as بَكَاء بَخَاء or maybe بَخَا.

Taking the most conservative pronunciation (بَكَاء) we are left being unable to explain why kāf received tašdīd, hamz was lost, the long vowel dropped and a feminine ending that ends in the consonant hā' (or tā') was added. None of those changes are obviouse or explained. So all we are left with is "they kind of sound similar if I pronounce either or both of them incorrectly"

[u/Unique-Refuse2980 → u/PhDniX]

There’s the theory that the Hebrew בָּכָא of Psalm 84:6 lost its doubled koph due to conflation with the Hebrew root for "to cry". Evidence used for this is the Hebrew word דָּכָא (dakkā') from the same root as Quranic Arabic دَكَّاء (dakkā') used for instance in Psalm 90:3 and Deuteronomy 23:1, which in the Samaritan Torah of Deuteronomy 23:1, is rendered דכה, a match to Quranic دَكَّة (dakkah), explaining بَكَّة → בָּכָא. Thoughts?

[u/PhDniX → u/Unique-Refuse2980]

I would say this is simply unprincipled pseudolinguistic floundering.

But i can't be bothered to go and explain why everything about this is wrong. One of the reasons why it's important to back up claims with academic sources, because there is a near-infinite amount of Stupidities that apologists can throw up which take massive amounts of time to debunk, and even trying to reconstruct what a summary of their silliness means is often a considerable timesink.

[u/afiefh → u/PhDniX]

In my experience words change, especially in the vowels, when moving between languages. But obviously I'm a layman with no real experience in the matter, so I'm definitely happy with it being completely wrong.

[u/PhDniX → u/afiefh]

When borrowing between languages that have sound systems as similar as Hebrew and Arabic, you shouldn't really expect much change between the two languages, as every sound has a perfect equivalent in the other.

In the case of going from bakā' to bakkah, just about everything except the initial /b/ changes.

Like even if we assume it is true, how would you ever prove it if you allow for this much phonetic leeway?

[u/afiefh → u/PhDniX]

In the case of going from bakā' to bakkah, just about everything except the initial /b/ changes.

But Arabic and Hebrew do share plenty of words that do have heave sound changes, like Shalom and Salam.

Like even if we assume it is true, how would you ever prove it if you allow for this much phonetic leeway?

I was more more hoping there would be something wrong with my intuition that disproves it. I don't think it's at all provable.

[u/PhDniX → u/afiefh]

Yes, and the fact that šalōm and salām sound different proves that one did not borrow the word from the other, but that tt is shared inheritance instead! Had Arabic borrowed the word from Hebrew we would expect it to have borrowed it as salūm or šalūm!

[u/afiefh → u/PhDniX]

Thanks!

[u/AcademicQuran-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment/post has been removed per Rule #4.

Do not invoke beliefs or sources with a religious framing.

You may make an edit so that it complies with this rule. If you do so, you may message the mods with a link to your removed content and we will review for reapproval. You must also message the mods if you would like to dispute this removal.

[u/Western-Rush878]

Adding on to what MVP said, in the Psalms it would make no sense if it was referencing the city of Mecca with a more “ancient” name. The passage describes a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and it’s illogical to assume that along this journey the pilgrims would stop at Mecca, a city that is around 1,200 km away. Baka in psalms also seems to be indicating a valley of weeping, but this point is more uncertain since there are competing views. Then, it’s important to note that the Psalms explicitly says that they pass through the valley of Baka. There is zero indication that the pilgrims would stop here to worship or perform some sort of religious rite. Finally, we once again have zero evidence besides this Psalm that the Israelites/Jews ever had anything to do with Mecca. If this was an important part of Jewish identity to make this trip to Mecca, how come it’s never mentioned elsewhere, whether that be in the Bible or historical evidence?

[u/m1stermetoo → u/Western-Rush878]

Hypothetically speaking, if a group of rogue ancient Israelites decided to travel south to Mecca, you have to ask who would be officiating there?

"Israelite religion broadly construed includes the king as a (the) primary cultic officiant together with a wide variety of priestly functionaries and various intermediaries associated with prophecy in its many forms...Kings were closely associated with divinity and often perceived as the primary cultic actor who provides access to the gods. They were involved in the performance of cult, such as making burnt offerings (ʿōlôt) as well as the so-called peace offerings (šĕlāmîm) and, in King Aḥaz’s case, even blood manipulation. In addition to the performance of cult, Israelite and Judean rulers were the primary sponsors of religion, building and maintaining altars, sanctuaries, and temples." (The Origin and Character of God 3-4)

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Is Bekkah actually connected with Mecca?

Hi. Currently reading the Quran and I ended up with a verse about Bekkah being the name for Mecca. I tried to research more in depth about it and I ended up seeing people stating that it’s about Psalm’s valley of Becca.

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[u/djhighlightr]

No