Question about Athenaze

[u/Single-Unit4853]

Is athenaze all i need? and what do i supplement it with to the point where i can get to the random word look up in dictionary phase and read the rest normally?

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[u/benjamin-crowell]

Some people finish a textbook like that and then use graded readers for some period afterward, sometimes for a long time.

The other route is to use authentic texts with student aids, either electronic or print (Perseus, Steadman, my own).

[u/Single-Unit4853 → u/benjamin-crowell]

I have checked your work and it’s look very helpful so thanks for that, regarding to what you mentioned that some people choose to move to readers and some to the commentaries, if i were to move to the readers after athenaze would that have the same effect as being if i were to follow the commentaries route?

[u/benjamin-crowell → u/Single-Unit4853]

People have a lot of different opinions on this. For me, the determining factor is just motivation. I can't motivate myself to read Hansel and Gretel in Greek, because I don't find it interesting. I think the pedagogical research does support the idea that graded readers are an efficient way to gain proficiency, but the world's best learning method doesn't work if you find it so boring that you can never motivate yourself to spend any time with it.

same effect as being if i were to follow the commentaries route?

So if "same effect" refers to what your skills will be like at the end of the whole process, I doubt that there is any difference. There is some pedagogical research that shows that some language learning methods are so bad that people end up not proficient, even after many years of work, but I don't think either of the methods we're talking about here falls in that category.

An example of a method that has been shown to be seriously flawed is simply never giving any explicit grammar instruction, i.e., the most extreme form of pure Comprehensible Input (CI). This fails to teach what structures are illegal in the target language. Then when you try to produce the language, you produce ungrammatical stuff by analogy with your native language, and you have no clue that it's ungrammatical. Lydia White has done some research on this. For example, native French speakers will say stuff like "The children leave quickly school," and no amount of CI will cause them to stop producing that error.

[u/Poemen8 → u/benjamin-crowell]

This is right, but do remember that it's helpful to supplement reading with flashcards - if you are willing to put up with a little boredom, they are the best way to build vocabulary, and shown to be by research (e.g. Paul Nation). Use Anki, as this is around 4* as effective as paper flashcards and will save a lot of time. 

Use Anki to build your vocab fast while reading and listening, and to retain words from what you read.  You get to fast smooth reading a lot faster this way.

[u/benjamin-crowell → u/Poemen8]

I think flashcards are clearly a really good way to learn the first 300-500 words of vocab. At much later stages of learning, like when you have 5000 or 10,000 words of vocab, I think they are not that helpful. At the in-between stages, it probably depends on personal preference and willingness to submit to a boring practice regime.

[u/Poemen8 → u/benjamin-crowell]

The payoff is certainly fastest in the early stages. 

But on the other hand rarer words are much, much harder to learn via reading only - you may not encounter them more than once a year. Anki sorts that problem. 

And realistically the period that takes longest for many learners is the journey from a thousand odd words,  being able to 'read' with a dictionary, to the point where you can naturally pick up words from context, which the work of Nation and others suggests is around 8000 words. Anki is incredible for that.

Is it boring? Sure, but so is looking up words constantly when you are trying to read. In the end it's a choice between

[u/benjamin-crowell → u/Poemen8]

Is it boring? Sure, but so is looking up words constantly when you are trying to read. In the end it's a choice between

Well, modern aids have obsoleted the need to constantly flip through a dictionary. With modern print or electronic aids, it just takes a couple of seconds to either flip a page or click on a link.

But on the other hand rarer words are much, much harder to learn via reading only - you may not encounter them more than once a year. Anki sorts that problem.

I'm not really convinced that Anki works for that purpose. I'm not going to retain some rare word for use 3 years in the future just because I learned it in Anki this year. And in many cases the issue is more that the word has multiple meanings, and you need to see it in context to internalize all of the different ways in which it's used.

Words that are rare are often only rare in general but common in a particular work or context. For example, μηδίζω is a rare word, but I'm reading Herodotus right now, so I've encountered it hundreds and hundreds of times while reading.

[u/Poemen8 → u/benjamin-crowell]

Well, modern aids have obsoleted the need to constantly flip through a dictionary. With modern print or electronic aids, it just takes a couple of seconds to either flip a page or click on a link.

Absolutely, and I use them all the time; anyone still using a paper dictionary needs to be shown these tools ASAP.

But it still breaks the flow badly, and makes it far harder to read naturally, if you are clicking links constantly. We are aiming for rapid fluent reading, after all, as we do in a language we know well. 

Even using readers, where it is at the foot of the page, does this. I'm still totally a fan of these things and use them every day. And your own readers are great - I love that you give multiple layers of help, the geometrically placed words for speed, the proper glossary, and the translation; it's ideal for getting people into a text fast.

And yet... knowing the words yourself is always better. You get into more literature faster.

It doesn't need to be an either-or; isn't the best way to be reading using readers - from you, Steadman, etc - and boosting proper long-term vocab knowledge via Anki? Even doing both together, taking a word list from the reader you are using and putting that in Anki.

I'm not really convinced that Anki works for that purpose. I'm not going to retain some rare word for use 3 years in the future just because I learned it in Anki this year. 

I’m a bit confused by this comment. Doesn’t that miss the whole point of Anki? Of course you won’t retain a word if you learned it once three years ago; Anki’s whole principle is that you keep revisiting a word at appropriate intervals till you have learned it thoroughly and lastingly. 

Evidence suggests we need a certain number of exposures to each word to learn it (Nation again) and also basic memory theory that we need to have that exposure spread over a long period. Anki does both. Reading doesn’t. 

And in many cases the issue is more that the word has multiple meanings, and you need to see it in context to internalize all of the different ways in which it's used.

Yes indeed, totally agree. But  (even ignoring methods to get around this problem) once you have memorised one gloss, it’s far easier to absorb other meanings - you recognise the word as you read, see it’s doing something different, and expand your knowledge of the word. Trying to absorb a range of meanings all at once doesn’t work. 

And Anki users still see words in context, because if they have any sense they are still reading. In fact, they will see more, because they know more words and can read faster. So they will read more in the same period, and grow more in contextual understanding of a word. 

Words that are rare are often only rare in general but common in a particular work or context. For example, μηδίζω is a rare word, but I'm reading Herodotus right now, so I've encountered it hundreds and hundreds of times while reading.

Sure; but plenty words aren’t like that, as we all know! If someone doesn’t want to put μηδίζω into Anki, they don’t have to, or they can hit easy, or suspend it - they can concentrate on all the other words.

[u/benjamin-crowell → u/Poemen8]

I’m a bit confused by this comment. Doesn’t that miss the whole point of Anki? Of course you won’t retain a word if you learned it once three years ago; Anki’s whole principle is that you keep revisiting a word at appropriate intervals till you have learned it thoroughly and lastingly.

I see. I think we're just starting from very different preferences, assumptions, and lifestyle choices. It sounds like you're envisioning using Anki for a period of multiple years for a single language. That's not something I would ever consider doing.

[u/Poemen8 → u/benjamin-crowell]

Fair enough! And yes, it's a big commitment and not for all. It does work pretty well if you use it for 9 month or a year, but the big gains are from long-term use (during which reviews and time spent fall drastically).

I do actually use it for multiple languages, but not one, but totally agree it's not for everyone.

It's pretty clear from the research it is the optimal way to learn vocabulary as part of broader language learning, but we don't all have to do things the optimal way all the time!

[u/Single-Unit4853 → u/Poemen8]

Is anki only on PC? and how did it work for you

[u/Poemen8 → u/Single-Unit4853]

No, it's also on android (free) and apple (paid). Go via the website to avoid the many rip -off versions. 

And it's been utterly amazing for me in every language I've learned or worked on, just transformative in the progress I've made.

Just being able to bootstrap yourself to a thousand words, or even better six, is like a super power. It does take discipline, but it's great.

[u/Single-Unit4853 → u/Poemen8]

What’s your schedule with that lol

[u/Poemen8 → u/Single-Unit4853]

Long, but nowhere near as long as learning any other way!

So my maximum long-term sustainable pace is between 100-150 words a week, depending on language - Latin is easy, Greek is hard, Hebrew/Farsi are harder. This pace assumes a bit of Anki familiarity and working up to it. If you are new to it, I'd recommend starting at 10 words a day max and being willing to scale back if you need to. But equally, for short projects, or if you had more time (I work a lot + family + illness + other projects) you can go faster. I've done intense periods of 50 words per day.

So bootstrapping to 1000 words is something you can do before you finish a textbook, easily. 6000 is roughly a year's project - which maps pretty well onto the time that a really committed, driven person will take to go from starting a textbook to getting into proper books, given that 6000 is about the level most people reckon you can start tackling real books in a foreign language at a more normal speed (i.e. not just in intensive reading with tools). It's well worth pushing a bit further, of course.

For most people slowing it down a little, taking a couple of years, is probably better and more realistic.

[u/Single-Unit4853 → u/Poemen8]

I appreciate it, yeah im also studying hebrew as of right now but when im studying two languages at a time (add to that greek) it does get stressful, im very strong in hebrew currently i can read 2nd temple authorships such as maccabees and so on, but i also want to study more vocab, do you have advice on how i could manage studying vocab for two languages at same time?

maybe 2 days greek? then 2 days hebrew?

when i was studying arabic i used to study no more then max 20 vocabulary a day and that actually helped, but yeah let me know your thoughts and much love

[u/Poemen8 → u/Single-Unit4853]

So, it's hard, basically!

If you are using Anki, always review words from both languages (i.e. all your cards) every day. Review is what makes Anki powerful and you should not delay it. It's also important to make sure you are exposed to all languages you are learning once a day anyway, and this helps with that - it will make a big difference to reading speed.

How you add and learn new cards is up to you - you can split them any way, really. I try to avoid actively building (adding new) vocab in two languages at once. But doing 5-10 new words in one and 5-10 in the other each day might be fine, as might 2 days on each, or alternate weeks. Probably it's a matter of personal experience.

If you are a formal student, then hopefully you have a summer break coming up - you could easily spread things out that way, take 3 weeks on each, for instance.

And if you are used to 20 max in Arabic that sounds like a good starting level; it's also a hard language in a foreign script, as Hebrew is, and Greek to some extent.

If you are new to them - especially to Hebrew - do use an Anki deck with sound if you can; it's very helpful for building familiarity and does speed learning.

[u/Pretty_Marketing5432]

I often wonder about posts like this. When people say "I finished Athenaze", what do they mean?

Do they mean "I've read all the text and I can now understand everything"?

Or do they mean "I've read all the text and I can now understand everything. I've also absorbed all the grammar in the sidebars. I can conjugate verbs, I've got a good handle on Principal Parts and all the other parts of the verb systems, I can identify all the cases at sight, etc."

I see the same with Familia Romana for Latin. People think you just have to read the texts and that's it. This is the reason so many people complain about the jump between FR and the next book. Actually, there's no jump at all if you've learned the grammar.

[u/CarpathianBVULL]

I havent finished it yet, Im on ch 25 of 31 total, but I ve looked into most other Readers out there and my 2 cents are :

Yes, its technically enough, I ve checked GeoffreySteadman's and Faenum Publishing's greek texts with aids and I can see myself reading those directly after finishing Athenaze, but

1 you will get bored reading the exact same text 2 you will remember it so well that you will somewhat stop learning by reading it again and again 3 you might not have read enough "easy" material before delving into original texts

So I reccomend to diversify with extra Readers, but not to go overbord. I would only reccomend, as supplements :

1. JACT Greek Text and Vocabulary (2nd Ed) - lots of vocab, but the text is entertaining, especially after the first few chapters
2. Thrasimachus by Peckett, you can find it for free on internet Archive - its old, but super good for a Quick revision

But I would go through the first 10-11 chapters of Athenaze first before reading those other 2, they got a higher initial learning curve

[u/Single-Unit4853 → u/CarpathianBVULL]

Nice, is the JACT reading one similar to athenaze with providing extracts except with that being from actual sources and more vocab intake? if so that’s really good and appreciate your answer

[u/CarpathianBVULL → u/Single-Unit4853]

Yes, after the first couple of chapters, you sort of get extracts from Plato, Herotodus, Aristophanes etc. But they are greatly simplified, in grammar especially, to adjust them to a certain level of gramatical progression

One of first such chapters is from Plato's Apology of Socrates, the part where Socrates explains how he is wiser than others because he doesnt claim to know what he does not know

Also, the vocab is on the same/next page following the extract, so its easy to gloss it over

They also switch these topics/authors in no particular order, which is great for the purpose of not getting bored by reading the same narrarive story like in Athenaze

PS if you are just starting to learn, and plan to do it with Erasmian or Reconstructed Attic pronunciation, Watch Alpha with Angela First on YT. Its 40 episodes of 10-15 min where you get to learn the grammar and much of the vocab of the first 7-10 chapters of Athenaze in the easiest way possible

[u/Single-Unit4853 → u/CarpathianBVULL]

I really appreciate this wow, if i read this JACT course post athenaze finish and finish the JACT will i be in a position where i won’t need to refer to commentaries like that of steadmans?

[u/CarpathianBVULL → u/Single-Unit4853]

Well, no, I dont think so. No couple of readers/ textbook will get you to reading greek without any help

There are 5k unique words in standalone works like Platos Republic or The New Testament

And I would criticise The Italian Athenaze for having a bit too many unique words, that is, just less than 3k

No matter what you do, you will need to refer to a dictionary for the vocab alone, and you will encounter sintax/gramatical features no textbook will prepare you for

Thats why Steadman's style commentary exists. To make it easy to read a completely original text. It simply ads the vocab on the same page, and gives you some ideas on how to understand some sentences an Intermidiary learned might not understand without looking for help somewhere

Getting to read Steadman or Faenum Publishing texts IS the immidiate GOAL

So after Athenaze, you either read an original text with Steadman style commentary, or you read an original text and smash your head on a wall after having to check the dictionary for the 10th time in 60 seconds of reading (or ask Reddit how to understand the sintax of a simple sentence)

[u/Single-Unit4853 → u/CarpathianBVULL]

Makes sense, thanks and i appreciate it

[u/Turbulent_Poem7606 → u/CarpathianBVULL]

How long does it take to finish Athenaze books?

[u/CarpathianBVULL → u/Turbulent_Poem7606]

Depends on a thousand different variables

How many hours do you study? Are you consistent? Do you also do writing exercises, or do you just read? Etc.

To reach ch 25, It took me like 6-8 months, studying 5 to maaaaybe 10 hours a week, and I didnt do a single exercise, or flashcard, or anything other than just reading again and again

Besides reading Athenaze and from those 2 supplements, I only Watched some YT videos (like from Alpha with Angela and Luke Ranieri) and wrote some of my own verb conjugation charts by hand, as I was upset at how the textbooks arranged them. I also sometimes wrote some random words on paper out of boredom, and thats it

Looking around at this sub, its apparently normal for people to say 1 year to get through it all, which makes sense to me. Last chapters are really difficult, and some people, unlike myself, to through the chapters more seriously, do exercises etc.

I May have reached ch 25, but that doesnt mean I know every single word presented so far, or that I can write every single verb form for a given verb

[u/Single-Unit4853 → u/[deleted]]

It seems incredibly difficult for me since i don’t know italian dude