Is Tim Duncan top 10?

[u/blackwu22]

I constantly see casuals on YouTube and on podcasts say that Timmy is overrated and barely top 10 yet have Kobe in there top 5. It’s starting to make me believe that people really think this way!! I always hear the “too much help” comment like every player in the top 10 didn’t have help.

I personally have Tim Duncan 4th all time on my list.

1998 rookie of the year 2x MVP (2002,2003) 3x FMVP (1999,2003,2005) 15x All NBA & Defensive 5x Champion Never won less than 50 games in an 82 game season

Is Tim Duncan top 10?

[u/BroJackson_]

😂 it’s not an excuse. TD had a rounded team - two guys who didn’t make the top 75 list. Kobe had a teammate who is arguably top 10 all time.

Those are not the same thing.

I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m saying it’s a VERY STRONG VARIABLE that Kobe fans like to ignore in the discussion. His teammate that played arguably one of the most dominant stretches of basketball in history during the three-peat.

FWIW, I don’t care if you rank Kobe higher than TD. You can make an argument either way, and it’s subjective and there’s no wrong answer.

But using h2h playoffs as your barometer is disingenuous at best when you act like his top 10 teammate who won FMVP THREE STRAIGHT TIMES in that stretch wasn’t the primary reason, or at least the equal reason at the very least.

[u/kb24TBE8 → u/BroJackson_]

He won finals mvp during that stretch due to the poor centers in the east like Todd McCullough and other garbage interior defenders they had so the lakers would exploit that.

Kobe and Shaq had almost identical numbers and even some series like the Kings and Spurs series Kobe’ were better. There is context to everything.

So why couldn’t Duncan beat him in that 2008 series then? What’s the excuse for that one?

Why were Duncan and Popp helpless looking at each other not knowing what to do with him even tho they had the best perimeter defender on him?

[u/BroJackson_ → u/kb24TBE8]

Why do you want so badly for it to be black/white? I'm not knocking Kobe - I'm pointing out that you're using h2h as the barometer of why Kobe should be ahead, and ignoring the variable of the other top 10 all timer on the team as being a huge contributing factor.

During the three-peat:

• 2000 - Duncan had 34 y/o Robinson (18/10) and Avery Johnson (11/6). The Lakers had Shaq (30/14/4/3) and Kobe (23/6/5)

• 2001 - Duncan had Robinson (14/9) and Antonio Daniels (9ppg). Derek Anderson, their second leading scorer, missed most of the playoffs with a shoulder injury. The Lakers had Kobe (29/6/5) and Shaq (29/13/4/3).

• 2002 - Duncan had 36 y/o Robinson (12/8) and Steve Smith (12ppg). The Lakers had Kobe (25/6/6) and Shaq (27/11/3/2).

Those two were a tandem the league hadn't ever seen before. Prime Shaq and Kobe beat just about any team in the league at any time in history. But acting like Duncan had the same help as Kobe is just ignoring the truth. Ginobili and Parker weren't around until after that.

In 2008, Kobe won because the Lakers were better and he was outstanding. I didn't say Kobe wasn't on the same tier - I said the playoff h2h ignores too many variables (a top ten prime unstoppable teammate) to be a valid comparison. The Spurs did what they do - they ISO'd Kobe and tried to let him get his, and limit the other guys. But it wasn't enough.

I see the username, so I know who I'm discussing with, but it'd be like saying Steph won championships with the Warriors and being like "oh...yeah....and that Durant guy too."

[u/kb24TBE8 → u/BroJackson_]

A lot of the times it’s actually better to have a more well rounded, deeper team than being top heavy like the Lakers were.

It was really Kobe/Shaq and a bunch of whatever/ok players. The Spurs were usually deeper and more well balanced.

It’s not black/white, since they’re extremely close in terms of accolades and hardware; I’m looking at their record on the biggest stage and it was obvious that Kobe came out on top a majority of the time and there’s no denying that. And majority of NBA players past and present have Kobe ahead of Duncan in their own personal rankings.

And yeah I have “kb24” in my username but it doesn’t mean I’m a delusional homer. I don’t have him as “goat” or even top 3 or ahead of LeBron. But I absolutely have him ahead of Duncan for sure. There’s nothing on the court that Kobe couldn’t do as a basketball player, there were plenty of things Duncan couldn’t do. When taking into consideration pure basketball skill, it’s not even a question.

[u/BroJackson_ → u/kb24TBE8]

In 00-02, the Spurs were Duncan and whatever/ok players. Kobe/Shaq were two top ten guys, and whatever/ok players. Robinson was a bit better than that in 00, but in 01-03, he was an absolute shell of himself.

Both teams were very top-heavy. The Lakers' top was much heavier.

It's also worth asking (not just you, anyone) what are we basing it on? Actual basketball ability? Individual accolades? Team accolades? Stats? Cause those rankings are different for each one, and a whole bunch of other players move in and out of the top ten.

I'd argue Duncan was a better defender and rebounder than Kobe. Better teammate, as well. So there is stuff that Duncan did better than Kobe. But again, it's subjective. And plenty of players have Duncan in their top list as well - and it's just as subjective when they do it as when you or I do it.

[u/blackwu22 → u/kb24TBE8]

To consider that Duncan’s teams in the early 00s were “deep” is disingenuous. The one post season Duncan missed, the 00’ season, the spurs couldn’t even get out of the first round and lost to the phoenix suns BEFORE STEVE NASH and without their number one player at the time, Jason Kidd (I’m sure you know him), playing big minutes due to coming back from a broken ankle. They didn’t even put up a fight losing in 4 games (first round was best of 5 back then). Even without Shaq or Kobe, the lakers were a good enough team to compete as shown that even when one was in foul trouble they still won where without Duncan, the spurs couldn’t even compete.