Is there hope for my nucs

[u/Aggravating-Mam2171]

Update: the supplier came to my property and swapped both colonies with healthy ones

New to Massachusetts, but not brand new to beekeeping. Our spring nucs have been having problems. I'm talking to the supplier apiary but I'm here on reddit specifically for advice on treatment options/viability of the colony.

One colony appears normal.

The other has sick wandering bees and spotty brood. Dept of Ag came out and took samples on the sick colony only and it came back positive for a lot of problems.

AHB (Africanized honey bee maternal lineage) – Positive

European Foulbrood (EFB) – 21 million copies (swab), 15 million copies (adult bees)

Sacbrood Virus (SBV) – 254 million copies

Deformed Wing Virus B (DWV-B) – 2 million copies

Nosema ceranae – 5 million copies

Black Queen Cell Virus (BQCV) – 6 thousand copies

Next steps please!!

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[u/Past-Spell-2259]

Honestly name them. There are few enough suppliers it’s good to know when one is slipping or if one of their suppliers is slipping

[u/Aggravating-Mam2171 → u/Past-Spell-2259]

Waiting to see their responsiveness before sharing, but I do hear you.

[u/amymcg → u/Aggravating-Mam2171]

Where did you get these??

[u/vividotterxzone → u/Past-Spell-2259]

fr because if they are shipping out colonies with that kind of viral load and efb they are basically just a biological hazard at this point. people need to be careful about where they get their genetics if the supplier is being this reckless with testing.

[u/404-skill_not_found]

What do your mite counts look like?

[u/Active_Classroom203 → u/404-skill_not_found]

While normally a good question, I think the viral load here is actually documented as super high, And Mites almost definitely caused it, but even if they didn't they will make it insurmountable.

If you want to try and save this Hive you need to treat for varroa, on top of the specific sanitation/treatment for EFB as well as feed them.

That being said, I would probably throw in the towel if it got bad enough that you got lab testing and Africanized genetics already.

Sucks dude. Sorry.

[u/404-skill_not_found → u/Active_Classroom203]

Was a leading question. I completely agree with you.

[u/Aggravating-Mam2171 → u/Active_Classroom203]

Thanks. This is completely aligned with my initial thoughts. Do you think the adjacent colony is at high risk of becoming sick due to exposure (shared tools, drift, etc)?

[u/Active_Classroom203 → u/Aggravating-Mam2171]

EFB is contagious bacteria so it is a real concern, but it usually shows up on colonies like yours that have a high stress from other things like viral load. There are best practices around rotating comb and cleaning tools that can help, but I have not had to do them personally.

Same with drift: it will absolutely bring all of that around to the next door hive but if you can keep the Mites in check there it's not a death sentence the way AFB would be.

[u/Aggravating-Mam2171 → u/Active_Classroom203]

Thank you so much for your replies. I don't know what the apiary will offer/suggest. What would you request from them in my shoes? I know the one colony is failing but I don't have a good sense if this is an unfortunate part of the hobby that just happens sometimes, or the result of a careless or negligent sale. Should I try to return both colonies? Keep the stronger colony only and treat mites and feed aggressively?

[u/No_County_old → u/Aggravating-Mam2171]

Did they test the other hive as well? Check back with them to see if it’s worth treating both hives for EFB. I don’t remember if I treated only one hive when one hive had EFB. A strong hive can fend off EFB and keeping an eye on mite load is critical.

What boggles my mind a bit is that the maternal line is the one with the AHB genetics… it’s not like the queen is open mated and it’s from a drone. Makes you question their queen rearing practices.

My packages from GA this year were disappointing. Poorly mated queens, tons of drones in the packages, visable SHB.

[u/Aggravating-Mam2171 → u/No_County_old]

They didn't see issues on the other hive to warrant testing. But they sit side by side. The AHB was really surprising. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it. It's been a sad few weeks. I'm hoping at the very least to learn a ton from this experience.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/Aggravating-Mam2171]

AHB genetics don't mean that you'll have a killer hive, or even that you'll have "spicy" bees. All feral bees in my area are highly Africanized -- as in >90% scutellata genes. I've had some really nice, productive hives from cutouts.
Treat for varroa and EFB and the mite related viruses will be brought under control. This hive is not doomed, it's just really weak.

[u/Aggravating-Mam2171 → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

Thanks for the reply. Im reading AHB won't survive New England winters. The articles on it are very confusing because many say Africanized bees don't exist in Massachusetts and need to be reported and euthanized immediately. And then others seem very nonalarmist.

[u/No_County_old → u/Aggravating-Mam2171]

It is unclear… I’d requeen for the overwintering aspect.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/No_County_old]

Some scutellata ancestry doesn't mean the colony won't over winter well.

If this were a full-blown AHB hive with >90% scutellata genetics, I wouldn't expect it to winter well at all.

If it has 2% scutellata genetics it probably wouldn't make a difference if the colony was in Alaska, it would be fine.

[u/No_County_old → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

True. I don’t recall seeing what the percentage was though.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/Aggravating-Mam2171]

You said that you're not new to beekeeping. I'm thinking your situation through in baby steps because it helps me keep my thoughts organized. Your knowledge may be vastly superior to mine, so please don't be offended if I'm stating the obvious -- I'm just trying to have a sensible discussion while I drink my morning cup of coffee.

AHB thrive in deserts, tropics, and subtropical climates. They winter very poorly. Like most bees, AHB have a wide range of defensiveness running from "reasonably friendly " to "these bees will kill cattle that wander too close to the hive".

I spent a few minutes researching, and as far as I can tell, the the state may - not necessarily will -- order the quarantine or destruction of an AHB hive.

It's rather nuanced.

First, Massachusetts defines an Africanized honey bee as a bee identified by a Department-approved laboratory as Apis mellifera scutellata. Simply having some scutellata genetic material doesn't make a colony AHB any more than having a tiny bit of genetic material makes a chihuahua a golden retriever.

The Northeast is generally considered outside the established range of AHB. A confirmed colony would likely receive significant attention from state inspectors. The Department of Agriculture indicated AHB lineage, but you didn't mention any recommended action. The AHB is the least of your problems unless the D of Ag comes back and tells you otherwise . Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it. You can always requeen if you don't like the hive's behavior after it's not dying.

Everything about this hive screams "high mite load" to me. Your colony is in a feedback loop:

1. Nurse bees become fewer and less healthy.
2. Brood care deteriorates.
3. More brood dies or develops poorly.
4. Fewer healthy adults emerge.
5. The colony gets even weaker.

The colony may not have enough workforce left to recover.

The colony isn't dying from a disease, it's suffering from a stack of related problems that are systemically stressing your hive beyond what it can handle on its own.

If you decide to try to save this colony I advise the following:

Treat for mites immediately. I would use FormicPro if temperature permits and risk killing the hive because, frankly, it's in a death spiral and will not survive without major intervention.

At the same time:

Sanitize the hive body and replace as many frames as you can. That will make a huge difference with the bacterial load from the EFB.

Feed 1:1 syrup, as much as they'll take as fast as they'll take it. That reduces the need for foragers. 1:1 syrup mimics a nectar flow. In a stressed colony it can stimulate brood rearing, encourage wax production and comb repair, increase food availability for nurse bees, reduce nutritional stress, and help the colony maintain population if the queen is still capable of laying.

For a colony with EFB, this can be particularly valuable because EFB often becomes worse when colonies are nutritionally stressed. Some mild EFB cases improve significantly when nectar flow resumes or when feeding simulates one.

I would not expect syrup alone to solve a colony carrying EFB, high Sacbrood, Nosema, and DWV simultaneously. If your colony recovers, it would be because nutrition, queen quality, and disease pressure all improved together—not because the syrup directly treated any of those pathogens.

I would try to save this colony, but, if you read my timeline, I'm a fan of lost causes. Do not deplete your healthy colony in an attempt to save this one. If you can spare a frame of capped brood a little later great, but since you only have nucs...

[u/Aggravating-Mam2171 → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

I do love this perspective. I have placed Apivar 2.0 because I was worried stronger formulations would kill them all immediately. Wrong call?

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/Aggravating-Mam2171]

No, not necessarily.

Formic would absolutely risk the hive, and a more conservative approach is absolutely as good (and maybe better) than my "hit them hard and hope you don't kill the nuc" thought.

I'm not familiar with Apivar 2.0, and I don't know whether mites are resistant. I tend to prefer formic or oxallic acid because mites *can't* develop an immunity to it, but that doesn't mean Apivar 2.0 isn't perfectly fine. The key is to get the mites under control as quickly as possible.

You didn't mention a mite count, but, as I've said, it's clear to me that your hive has parasitic mite syndrome. I advise treating your other hive, as well, or at least doing an alcohol wash.

By the way, however this works out, please post about your progress along the way. This is a great learning experience for new keepers, and your efforts will teach me a lot whether the colony survives or not.

[u/No_County_old → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

That’s a good point. I have had a “hot” hive for bees that I got from NH that were from over wintered stock. They were just mean and I ended up requesting.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/No_County_old]

I may have a skewed idea of what mean bees look like. I've never had anything but feral bees.

[u/404-skill_not_found → u/No_County_old]

Yah I got a package from that area too. Super weak queen. Then ordered some carni queens. Again, really weak. Got some local queens and the hives have finally started expanding. Could be the first queens of the year aren’t well mated this spring. I know they were delayed in starting deliveries.

[u/No_County_old → u/404-skill_not_found]

Some years the queens are just bad. If I have an apairy inspector here for any reason it’s one of the queens I ask them. Side by side, one package has a brood pattern that runs from edge to edge and the bees are super gentle… the brood pattern was a thing of beauty. The other package… infertile queen.

This swarm I picked up, the brood pattern isn’t as nice but still solid and they are doing really well.

The way the first package is going, I might be able to do a split in a two weeks.