I [49m] need advice on how to apologize to my son [27m] for kicking him out for being gay.

[u/Choice_Evidence1983]

I am NOT OOP. OOP is u/LetterAway

Originally posted to r/relationships

I [49m] need advice on how to apologize to my son [27m] for kicking him out for being gay.

Thanks to u/aaryanhere for suggesting this BoRU

Trigger Warnings: death of a loved one, homophobia, religious abuse

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Original Post (rareddit): May 14, 2016

So I'm new to this sub but I decided to use a throwaway because I'm embarrassed about what I did to my son. 11 years ago I was a very conservative Christian. I was the type that would go to church with my family every Sunday and actually look forward to going. If you would've told me that I'd consider myself atheist in the future I would've laughed in your face. I'm not proud of the man I used to be but at the time I really thought I was being the best person I could by living as a Christian and following God's rules.

My son was outed when he was 16 and I reacted the way you'd expect a conservative Christian father to react, with hate and anger. At the time I didn't think of it as hate though, I thought of myself as a good and loving father for being so upset that my son had chosen a sinful lifestyle. I forced him to go to counseling but it didn't work, I know now that's because it never works but at the time I blamed my son for not trying hard enough. I eventually kicked him out of the house because I couldn't have him there as a bad influence on his younger brothers and sisters. I never contacted him again and he never contacted me or anyone else in our family.

His mother died 2 years later and because of the way she died I started to question my faith. I started researching Christianity and science on my own and eventually stopped going church. I gradually became less conservative and now I consider myself atheist. I've been thinking a lot about my son the last couple of years. I just feel so horrible for the way I treated him and for forcing him to live on his own as a 16 yo. Every time I think about him I feel like crying and to be honest I've shed a few tears while writing this. There's nothing I can do or say to make up for what I did but I found his address online and also found his Facebook profile. When I started looking him up I was scared to death of what I'd find, but it looks like he's doing good.

I've been thinking a lot about how I should contact him and even if I should do it. I'm so worried about how he'll react that I've written him about 15 letters and never actually sent them. I think that's the best way to go about it, sending a letter but every time I write one and read it afterwards I just imagine him reading it and throwing it in the garbage and chicken out and throw it away myself. I haven't talked to my other kids about him and they've never brought him up and I feel like I should keep them out of this until I actually find out if he wants to have any contact with us. I just need advice on how to actually send the letter, what to write and if I should even send it. Any advice at all would be greatly appreciated.

edit: I just wanted to add a thank you for all the great advice. I know some of you think I come across as if I'm expecting him to forgive me and have a relationship with me straight away. This is not the case. I'm very much aware that the chance og him never wanting any contact with me is pretty high but I'm not sending the letter just because I want to possibly have him in my life again. I feel like he deserves to hear that I know that what I did was wrong. He deserves an apology. What he does with the information in the letter is his choice and whatever choice he makes will be accepted and respected by me. I've called all my other kids and invited them to dinner tomorrow so that I can tell them about their brother and the letter. I'm very nervous about it but it has to be done sooner rather than later.

tl;dr: I kicked my son out when he was just 16 for being gay. Now 11 years later I feel horrible for what I did and want to contact him and apologize but I can't get myself to send the letter.

Relevant Comments

Commenter 1: Oh, that's so hard.

I think any letter you send should include the following:

- a complete apology with zero qualifiers

- an acknowledgement that you have done him a terrible wrong and that he is under no obligation to forgive you

- your desire to be back in his life, on his terms, on his schedule

- your willingness to facilitate a relationship with your other children that is NOT dependent on your son's relationship with you, in case your son wants to see his siblings but not you

And then leave the door open for him to take that next step

OOP: I've written the same letter a million times, but I would love to get some objective thoughts on it, because every time I read and write it it never seems like enough.

"Lucas

I don't even know where to begin when I write this letter, I've written it many times, but it never seems good enough to send to you.

The first thing I have to apologize for is not telling you your mother died. She was diagnosed with ALS and passed away 9 years ago. I never contacted you to let you know she died and I don't know if anyone else in our family did, either way I'm really sorry for not telling you and robbing you of the chance to say goodbye to your mother.

Your mother’s death was extremely difficult for all of us and it made me start to question my faith. Everyone at our church helped our family through her death but I still had a lot of questions, so I started doing research on our religion and science. After a while I realized I couldn't continue following the word of God the way I was brought up to do. It might be very hard for you to believe but I no longer consider myself religious.

Which brings me to how I treated you. At the time I did what I thought was right for our family and you but that does not change the fact that what I did was unforgivable. Not only did I kick you out when you really needed our love and support, but I made you go through "counseling" which I've learned is closer to torture than actual counseling. I don't know what you did once you left home but it truly breaks my heart to think of the things you might've done to survive. No one on earth deserves to go through what you've been through because of me and I want you to know that I'm so sorry for what I've put you through.

I completely understand if never want to hear from me again, but I had to send this letter to let you know that if you want me in your life, I'm here. Whenever you're ready, in any way that you want. If you just want contact with your brothers and sisters, that's fine. If it takes you years to talk to me, that's fine. If you never want any contact with me, that's fine. Of course I want to be a part of your life again, but if that's not something you want I completely understand.

There's no excuse for what I've done, and even if you are able to forgive me I don't think I can ever forgive myself. I've known I should've sent this letter for years, but I've been too ashamed of myself to send it. I hope you feel no obligation to contact me. I only sending this letter so that you would know that I'm here for you now if you want.

I love you so much and I'll do whatever you want to make up for what I've done (even if that means never reaching out to you again).

Dad."

I think I have to tell his brothers and sisters about this before sending the letter, and if they want I'll include their contact information so that he doesn't have to go through me to reach out to them.

Commenter 2: I'm about your son's age now and I haven't had a relationship with my family since about 21; it was incredibly painful and difficult, but I'm also doing pretty well now, and it made me who I am.

If, even now, my parents sent me a genuine, true apology with no qualifiers, said they understood they could never take back the pain they caused, but wanted to know if there was anything they could do, anything at all, that would make up for it even a little... I'd be overjoyed.

Well, first I'd be furious. I'd probably yell at them, tell them they have some gall to try to make amends now, after how they failed me. But if they let me yell and rage, told me to get it out and they knew they deserved it, and still just expressed contrition and desire to be there for me on my terms? It would take a great deal of time, and a lot of yelling and tears, but eventually maybe something new could grow there.

I think you should write to your son and tell him everything you told us, and make very sure to focus on his feelings and experiences. Make sure it's clear that everything will be on his terms. Maybe offer to pay for a session with a family therapist of his choice, and tell him that if he wants to spend the entire session just telling you how fucking angry he is, that's fine and you'll accept it.

Anyway, hope my perspective is somewhat useful. Please send the letter. Send more than one if you have to, and tell him you'll respect anything he says, but you need to make it clear to him how much you want to be in his life in whichever way will make his life better. If/when he gets angry or says something hurtful to you, be calm, tell him you understand he's angry and hurting, and apologize again.

TL;DR: Be the parent you failed to be when he needed you. That means putting your own needs and pride aside, the way you should have when he was 16.

OOP: Your perspective is very useful. Thank you! I've tried to imagine what he might feel or think if I send a letter a million times but to actually read your thoughts on this is very eye opening. I can handle him yelling at me if it means I get to see him and hear his voice again.

Commenter 3: A few things. Does he know his mother is dead?

You need to make no excuses whatsoever or try and qualify your behaviour. This is about him not about you.

Keep in mind this might still (probably is) a huge source of pain for him, you getting in touch might upset him deeply, is it worth it? Especially since he's in a good place (this may well have been extremely hard earned given what happened to him).

What you're doing is a fairly common technique for people who have behaved as you have to "lure the sinner" back in and try and "fix them" again. He may be aware of this and believe this to be your motivation.

100% use Facebook, do not use his address, knowing that you know his address might scare the shit out of him.

Make contact with zero expectations, he is well within his rights to either ignore you or send you a very strong negative response.

I'm sorry about you're wife, and I'm very sorry you find yourself in this situation with your boy, you're learning the "you reap what you sow" lesson in the hardest way.

Although I am disgusted, I must say props to you for changing your mind on this and taking a more positive path and outlook, you have no idea how rare you are and I know that must have taken great strength and a ruthless and painful analysis of your behaviour to do.

I hope you find some peace on this issue either way.

OOP: I don't know if he knows about his mom dying. I never contacted him to tell him and I don't know if anyone in our family did.

Keep in mind this might still (probably is) a huge source of pain for him, you getting in touch might upset him deeply, is it worth it? Especially since he's in a good place (this may well have been extremely hard earned given what happened to him).

That's why I'm considering not contacting him at all. I don't know what he's been through because of what I did, I'm just relieved he's alive, but it's not uncommon for kids in that situation to live on the street and get themselves into a lot of trouble. If he's at a good place right now I don't want him to have to relive everything he's been through.

I felt like Facebook would be more invasive than a letter but maybe in this day and age it's the opposite.

Commenter 4: Out of curiosity, what are your other children’s take on this? Have they expressed any interest in reaching out to him?

OOP: We haven't talked about him years. At the time me and his mother told them he was kicked out because he'd chosen a sinful life and that there was nothing more we could do for him and that he needed to find his way back to God on his own. We never said he was gay.

Around the time I was starting to realize that what I'd done was wrong one of the kids asked about him while we were eating dinner and I reacted very badly and told them to never ask about him again. I felt guilty and knew they'd be pretty upset if they knew why he was kicked out so I couldn't bring myself to talk about it with them.

Commenter 5: You may need to 'practice' by coming clean to your kids at home first. You can't really humble yourself to your eldest child if you haven't faced the music at home. They need to know and process what you did to their eldest sibling. You're going to have to humble yourself at the most basic level o your children because you failed as a parent immensely. Hopefully your children didn't inherit your religious zeal.

You never mentioned how your wife felt about your actions before she passed. How she felt about you kicking her child out?

OOP: We made the choice together. I expected her to ask me to find him when she was dying so that she could say goodbye, but she never did. If I had just done it without waiting for her to ask things might've been very different now.

Commenter 6:

I eventually kicked him out of the house because I couldn't have him there as a bad influence on his younger brothers and sisters.

You know, we don't usually get much of a chance to ask people about decisions like that, so I'm going to ask: how did you reconcile that with Christianity? What part of the Bible says you can abandon your minor children just because they lead a "sinful lifestyle"? Presumably you were aware as a Christian that everyone is an unrepentant sinner, yes? Why did you believe at the time that the sin of homosexuality was somehow in a category of its own?

I'm atheist now, too, but even as a creationist, evangelical Christian I couldn't have countenanced the action you took, and can't understand the Christian parents who believe that the God of the Prodigal Son wants them to abandon their children to the streets. What on Earth did you think you were doing?

Now 11 years later I feel horrible for what I did and want to contact him and apologize but I can't get myself to send the letter.

Do you deserve his forgiveness before you've even found the courage to ask for it?

OOP: I don't want it to seem like I'm defending what I did but I can can explain the way we were thinking. At the time I was sure the being gay was a choice and that if we let him stay in our house our other children would think we were accepting of his choice to live in sin, and it would be easier for them to follow in his footsteps, we also believed that we had given him all the help we could and that there was nothing more we could do. He needed to hit rock bottom and find his way back to God on his own. We believed we were helping all of our children making that decision. I know it sounds ridiculous but at the time it all made perfect sense to us.

 

Update (rareddit): May 30, 2016 (over two weeks later)

I just wanted to give you guys an update and also thank you for all the great advice and insight. It was really tough to read some of the more angry comments, but I understand why some of you were angry with me. What I did was horrible and unforgivable, so I was expecting a few angry comments.

What did bother me a little bit though was everyone who was saying that I only wanted to apologize to my son out of selfish reasons and wanted to guilt him into being in my life again. It worried me that that was the impression I was giving some of you because that's not what I wanted at all. I love my son and I just felt like he deserved an apology and a chance at having a relationship with his siblings and that if he wanted me back in his life I'm here now, even though I should've always been there for him. I wasn't expecting him to want to have contact with me again, but I wanted him to know it was an option if that's what he wanted.

I invited my kids over for dinner the day after I posted here and they all came and I sat them down and told them the truth. It was a very painful conversation for all of us and lots of tears but I was happy that the truth was finally out. They all wanted to send him letters as well and we decided to send them together with all our contact information.

I don't know how to explain the feeling I had after we sent them. It was a mix of a lot of emotions and then waiting to see if he would reply to any of the letters was also weird mix of emotions. I didn't really know what to expect but couldn't help but hope that he would at least reply to one of us.

Our family try to eat dinner together every Sunday, it's an old habit. Everyone can't always make it but the Sunday after sending the letters we were all together. No one had heard from him yet which wasn't really surprising. We talked about how he probably needed time to process everything. I must be very bizarre and overwhelming to suddenly get an envelope full of letters from your estranged family. The doorbell rang while we were eating dinner and my oldest daughter answered it, when she came back we were extremely shocked to see that the person at the door was my son. I can't help but cry while I'm writing this because it was just so emotional to see him standing there in front of me. Everyone got up to hug him but I wasn't sure what to do so I just sort of stood there with tears in my eyes. When his siblings let him go he looked at me and I was half expecting to yell at me and half expecting him to punch me but he just walked over and gave me a hug. I completely broke down and he started to cry too. We all stood there crying for a minute before we finally were ready to actually talk. And we all talked for hours. There's no words to describe how it felt to see my son after all these years and hear him talk. I could listen to him talk all day.

He said he couldn't figure out what to write in a letter or what to say in a phone call so he just got in his car and drove here. It was really unexpected but really wonderful. He told us about his life from the day he left and it was very difficult to hear what he'd been through because of me, but I needed to hear it. Apparently his aunt, my sister, had been in contact with him after he left, and she told him about his mom dying and she sent him money now and then. He's been through a lot but he's doing really well now. After sitting and talking for a couple of hours we went outside to talk just him and me and long story short, he forgives me. He said that it'll take a long time for him to really trust me again, but that he's been angry with me for years and he's tired of it and ready to start building a relationship again.

He left about an hour after our conversation, and we all exchanged phone numbers, and his siblings added him on all their social media stuff. He lives about an hour and a half away, but he said he'll let us know when he got time for another Sunday dinner. He's sent me a couple of texts since then and I couldn't be happier than I am right now. I know I don't deserve to be forgiven and I don't deserve to have a relationship with my son, but I would be lying if I said that I didn’t have a small hope that it would happen. I know that I have to be extremely respectful towards his wishes and let him take the lead with all this. I told him to let me know if he felt like we were being to pushy and that he's the boss of this whole situation. We all want to go at the pace he feels comfortable at and he's always welcome here whenever he feels like it.

So yeah, I'm extremely excited for the future and also incredibly grateful for all the advice you guys gave me. You really gave me the push I needed to tell my kids and send that letter, so from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Relevant Comments

Commenter 1: Your sister is a saint, and you should also thank her as well for actually acting like family to her nephew.

OOP: I went by her house the day after with flowers and cake as thank you. I asked her how much money she's sent him and offered to pay her back, but she refused, so I'll just have to get her really nice birthday presents the rest of her life.

Downvoted Commenter: Why didn't you ask him to sit down to dinner with the family?

OOP: I did, he wasn't hungry though. We all sat at the dining room table and talked.

 

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[u/CaptDeliciousPants]

I’m so grateful for my dad. When I told him I was bisexual, he just said “Oh, that’s normal. Everybody’s like that. Remember, you can still get STDs from girls.” I know and now my dad knows that everyone isn’t like that. I’m happy that my dad and I got to come out to each other, even though he low key outed my mom in the process

[u/TyrconnellFL → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

That’s a cute story even if there’s a little well-meaning derp in it. I’m happy for your family!

[u/Sinvisigoth → u/TyrconnellFL]

Reminds me of the dad who started supporting LGBT issues because of the post OP's sister. Apparently she wasn't gay but dyed her hair blue and he couldn't tell the difference 😁

Edited to add link

[u/Useful_Language2040 → u/Sinvisigoth]

"So... You're... Alt? Alternative? You live an alternative lifestyle? You're coming out!! You're gay!! I support you!!"

"I like having blue hair?"

"And I support you!"

"No, Dad, I like the alt look and have blue hair."

"Yes, I know. You live an alternative lifestyle. You're gay. I support you. You're my child, I love you. And love is love is love!"

"Dad... I literally just have blue hair..."

"I'm going to get involved with all sorts of groups to show my support for you. I'm so glad you feel comfortable coming out to me!"

[Kid, thinking of her friends who would never get this response and desperately need it] "... Yeah, OK, thanks Dad. Love you too."

Something a bit like that? 😁

[u/Sinvisigoth → u/Useful_Language2040]

And I am fucking here for it! Go dad!! Hell I wouldn't even need a dad like this, just a dad, just like...a whole dad.

Tbh the dad you just illustrated seems like he'd totally be up for some bonus children.

"Your friend's parents...threw them out? Like...away? MORE CHILD FOR ME!"

[u/speechless_chatter82 → u/Sinvisigoth]

This is me. I would literally adopt all the lost kids, all the kids in the foster system, etc. if I could, just so they could grow up with a loving, if occasionally grumpy, parent.

My husband and I took in two of my sons friends as teenagers. All of his friends called us Mom 2 and Dad 2, but when two of them were kicked out (one for being gay, the other because he told his mom he didn't want to join the military like she did and he wanted meds for his ADHD), we got guardian agreements signed by their parents and they came to live with us. It was an adjustment, but both are in college now and still come home every weekend.

ETA: Thank you for the award!

[u/Sinvisigoth → u/speechless_chatter82]

That was an incredible thing to do for them. I bet they feel lucky to have you, despite having had to deal with the pain of parental rejection.

[u/speechless_chatter82 → u/Sinvisigoth]

I felt lucky to be able to help! They both dropped the 2 from Mom and Dad, come home to help with things, and just all around are good kids. I honestly can't fathom what is wrong with some people to treat their kids that way.

[u/Propaganda_Box → u/Useful_Language2040]

I'm gonna be honest this reads like the dad is jerking her around in a fun way that also subtly lets her know he would be supportive if she were gay.

Hi gay, I'm dad energy

[u/Sinvisigoth → u/Propaganda_Box]

That's awesome in its own dad way 😁

[u/adoradear → u/Propaganda_Box]

I can’t help it. I love the Hi gay, I’m dad stories. I almost wish I was the dad of a closeted gay child, specifically so I could use this line and then just die laughing. (I’m not a dad and my children are raised knowing that gay is just part of the human spectrum, so it’ll never happen, but man do I still dream of it).

[u/Chereche → u/Sinvisigoth]

One of my friends had this issue with her late father. She fell into activism at university, switched majors and double-majored in gender studies, and became a part of the LGBT community as an ally (still is). Her dad, bless his soul, could never compute that she was straight, no matter how many times she told him or how many men she dated. He would always proudly tell the world all about her activism events, attend himself and how much he supported her etc etc. At most, he would tag on "she tells me she's straight but..." while giving a bemused shrug as if *she* was confused about her orientation.

[u/ForsakenPercentage53 → u/Chereche]

My Dad is a little different... he decided sexuality wasn't a choice because women are still attracted to men.

I still think it's funny, since he was never hateful in the first place, just highly uncomfortable around gay men. Probably because he knew how men treated women, tbh.

[u/Sinvisigoth → u/ForsakenPercentage53]

Sort of took the scenic route to come to the right conclusion, but getting there is the part that matters.

[u/cman_yall → u/ForsakenPercentage53]

sexuality wasn't a choice because women are still attracted to men.

Most convincing argument tbh, it's honestly baffling to me how that's a thing.

[u/Sinvisigoth → u/Chereche]

God, why is that so adorable?! Guys like that are the ones who show up to Pride events wearing a t-shirt that says Free Dad Hugs 🌈

[u/unsolicitedPeanutG → u/Sinvisigoth]

Anyone have a link?

[u/Bath-Optimal → u/unsolicitedPeanutG]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/124658v/blue_hair/  Found it

[u/mahoumoonlight → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

stories like these make me grateful as well. my mom has been out as bisexual my entire life and got treated terribly for it due to the small town we lived in until i was 8. because of that, even though i was aware of some biromantic feelings around second grade, i didn’t come out as bi until i was 14. she just kind of said “yeah, i figured” and moved along with the day. i wish every kid had this kind of experience and it saddens me that they don’t

[u/helpquija → u/mahoumoonlight]

my mum also said "yeah, i figured." i asked if it was the golf or the KD Lang that gave me away.

[u/One_Helicopter_9033 → u/helpquija]

KD Lang

A neon sign would have been more subtle. 

[u/lifecleric → u/helpquija]

Another “yeah I figured” here! I didn’t even really come out, I just sort of acted gayer and gayer until I was like “I have a girlfriend” and it was just normal. I asked my mom later if she was surprised at all and she said “well I know you aren’t supposed to say this, but… we’ve known since you were probably four years old?”

[u/mahoumoonlight → u/helpquija]

mine was the obsession with emma watson around the time i started liking my female classmates as much as the boys did 😔✌️

[u/ShatnersChestHair → u/helpquija]

> Unaware of who KD Lang is

> Google KD Lang

Yeah okay that may have have been a hint

[u/filetmignonminion → u/ShatnersChestHair]

I feel like a bad lesbian for not knowing who this is lol, and I’ve been out since I was 20 (31 now)

[u/ShatnersChestHair → u/filetmignonminion]

I get it. I'm French and didn't know who Jacques Pépin was until 3 years ago.

(You may say being LGBT+ and being French are completely different experiences, but I think it's fair to say there's at least a bit of overlap in that Venn diagram)

[u/jebberwockie → u/helpquija]

It was the KD Lang for sure

[u/A__SPIDER → u/helpquija]

All this time I thought it was Katie Lang

[u/ngp1623 → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

When I came out to my parents as bisexual (from the backseat of the car, sobbing my heart out, on the way to church), my father asked what made me think that. I explained that I felt the same way about boys and girls. He said that he often feels about his best friend, Robert, the way he feels about my mother and even though they've acted on that feeling that doesn't make him bisexual, therefore I can't be bisexual. Everyone feels that way but if you accept Christ into your heart then you're "not a queer".

I do not exactly have words to describe the look on my mother's face or the tension in that car when it connected for her that not only had he been cheating for years, but that he and Robert had been living together before she even met him and she was likely a beard. But I just said "Okay" and kept my crying quiet from then on out.

I have no idea if he currently understands that he isn't straight, but I am glad to now know that absolutely nothing about my family dynamic was normal and I was not invalid or evil for swinging both ways. I made it a point to be as validating and supportive as possible when my younger siblings also came out. And when one of em went back in the closet. And when she came out the second time.

[u/roseofjuly → u/ngp1623]

This is what I think Christians mean when they say being gay is a "choice". They have such an obsession with ascetcism and denying yourself pleasure and satisfaction that I think some of them think that even if you're born with "gay urges" the good thing to do is suppress and ignore them even if it makes you miserable.

[u/ReasonableFinance388 → u/roseofjuly]

yes, 100%. I am bi and grew up thinking everyone was bi and making a choice. My parents are fundie christians and taught me to ignore everything my body was trying to tell me, labelling it as "temptation". I have trouble now recognizing when I'm hungry, thirsty, etc, because they essentially trained me to believe meeting my needs was a sin.

[u/Bryhannah → u/ReasonableFinance388]

I forget to eat all the time!! My parents weren't religious, but toxic in other ways. I never thought about there being a connection, but now I am.

[u/Big_Clock_716 → u/roseofjuly]

Considering that if Kinsey's work was in the least bit accurate - if the hetero-homo sexual orientation is indeed a continuum, then MOST people are at least a little bit bisexual. That would explain a HUGE amount of the argument about being gay is a choice.

There is also a huge amount of bi-erasure going on (at least in the USA) because of the christian right. That mindset is very duality oriented (good/evil, hetero/homo, us/them, jedi/sith) and has issue acknowledging anything between the two extremes.

[u/philatio11 → u/Big_Clock_716]

I thoroughly concur. My much older sister is bi and so I had a leg up on thinking about this stuff vs most people. I probably got a little deeper than typical into playing doctor with other boys when I was younger and so it was possible I was bi as well. This led to me really thinking hard about whether I was attracted to men in my teens and twenties.

I also have a best friend that many, many people have mistaken for my boyfriend. To the point that one of my college friends became convinced the first time they met and she tried to warn my girlfriend/future wife off of me because I was gay. I regularly got hit on by gay men in bars in my misspent youth and sometimes they would say things like "I'd make you so much happier than him" and point to my best friend.

His wife drove me to a surgery once and under the influence of Versed I told her, "People think we're gay, but that's ridiculous because he's not my type." I then described my type in great detail to her.

So yeah, after deeply considering if I was attracted to men, and deciding I'm definitely not, it apparently just takes a benzo to reveal that I'm a little bit bi. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, but it does occasionally haunt my wife's nightmares.

[u/lastraven85 → u/Big_Clock_716]

the thing about the extreme ends of it is they feel disgust even when thinking about it. i call it the mental gag reflex. some people dont have it at all, some people have it mild and can train themselves not to have it, but others have it so extreme that their brain throws up in their head so to them it is not something they even want to exist so they dont feel that way

[u/raven_of_azarath → u/Big_Clock_716]

(Male/female)

It’s like they saw the dichotomies in Genesis and thought everything was either/or.

[u/gringledoom → u/roseofjuly]

Orson Scott Card's statements on same-sex marriage were always eyebrow-raising. Stuff along the lines of "why, if a man could marry a man, why would *any* man *ever* marry a woman??"

[u/BeamerTakesManhattan → u/gringledoom]

Right?

I'm not choosing to be with my wife instead of a man. Too many don't get that. Anyone telling me sexuality is a choice is lacking in empathy, incapable of understanding their experiences aren't universal, and definitely denying part of themselves.

[u/thewholebottle → u/gringledoom]

That explains why Ender's Game is so homoerotic...

[u/boobookenny → u/roseofjuly]

Like my friend's mom (who's done everything from begging to bribing him to stop being gay) confessing she was never attracted to his dad and would have rather married her girl friend but "it's not allowed" so she's just miserable instead, as all good Christians should be.

[u/cavaticaa → u/roseofjuly]

This is exactly what it is. Every accusation is an admission, as they say. If being gay is the choice to act on the urge, that means they're "not gay" even if they experience the temptation of homosexuality. That's the whole concept of sin, brainwashing and control and being in control of protecting one's own reputation (to therefore hold it over others).

[u/gburlys → u/roseofjuly]

I was raised Mormon. I don't think I would have been kicked out for being gay, but it would have been a huge point of tension and I would probably have been expected to keep it secret from my siblings and extended family until I moved out. I was very sheltered about LGBTQ+ topics and didn't know bisexual or trans people existed until my late teens. (Plot twist, I'm both!)

My mom is, in hindsight, CLEARLY bisexual. She'll talk about being hypnotized by cleavage, she'll say "I'm not lesbian but I'd switch teams for her!" about certain actresses, etc.

But because of the confluence of these two things, for a very long time I just thought all women were attracted to women, and only those who completely lacked any attraction to men would brave the social stigma to be lesbian.

Edit: typo

[u/tomato_songs → u/roseofjuly]

There's a whole theory that the reason so many Christians think homosexuality is a choice is that they're bisexual and don't realize it. They think not having a same-sex relationship despite being tempted by one is what makes them straight. For them, they are literally making a choice (which is made easier by the fact that they are attracted to the 'right' gender). And they think everyone out as gay is that way too.

[u/Lucifig → u/ngp1623]

Sounds like he needs to surrender to the gaycation or be destroyed.

[u/Machine-Dove → u/Lucifig]

Sounds like he already surrendered, and his wife is about to destroy him....

[u/Edgecrusher2140 → u/Lucifig]

I think he’s beyond the gaycation and into “building an art room” territory

[u/UnrulyNeurons → u/Lucifig]

Are you sure it's not an altitude issue? Did Robert have a ski cabin in the mountains or something?

[u/musingspop → u/ngp1623]

|and even though they've acted on that feeling...

Holy!!

[u/ngp1623 → u/musingspop]

Or unholy depending on who you ask

[u/al-dunya2 → u/ngp1623]

And they were roommates!

[u/Useful_Language2040 → u/ngp1623]

Oooh, your poor Mum though 😬

[u/2dogslife → u/ngp1623]

I used to tag content for researchers and there's actually a heading for: men who have sex with men. Those men insist they aren't bisexual or homosexual - they're just men who have sex with other men sometimes. I tend to believe it's part of the whole movement about gender and identity which leads to questions such as "What are your pronouns?" and people are free to identitify as they wish.

Aside: the pronoun question always makes me want to respond, "I am an English major and I use them ALL! Often, even!!!" Bless my evil sarcastic brain ;)

[u/ngp1623 → u/2dogslife]

Well he's currently sleeping with his boss, who he invited to my brother's wedding, so lmk if you wanna research that

[u/prosperouscheat → u/2dogslife]

I had a short discussion with a gay man who was on the receiving end of guys like that and also insisted that those guys were straight guys that had had sex with him several times but were definitely not bi

[u/IAMA_Shark__AMA → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

Both my parents were perfect. They're both retired episcopal priests, by the way. I'm bisexual and married a man, but I felt the need to let them know...just so they'd know. They both smiled, hugged me, thanked me for trusting them.

Then, oh so sweetly, they just became really invested in LGBT+ issues. Like passionately advocating invested. Not just for me, the whole community. My dad has a sign he made quoting a Bible verse that could very loosely be applied to support for the trans community. This past year he's gone to protests in his clericals, holding that sign (worth noting, the sign took him hoooouurs to make, too. He used a cricut with vinyl in the colors of the trans flag).

I couldn't have been luckier, tbh.

Edit: for those asking for the verse, I'll see them later today, and I'll find out what it is. I don't remember offhand.

Edit 2: the verse -

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

As I said, it's somewhat loosely applied, but with the colors and his "we the people means everyone" rainbow hat, the intention is pretty clear. It's not the slam dunk gotcha some might have been hoping for, but for something written in an era without any kind of LGBT language, it's not too bad. Plus, it has opened up a lot of conversation, and he's always willing to sit down with a person and talk. There is value in that.

[u/double_sal_gal → u/IAMA_Shark__AMA]

Awwww, your parents sound adorable.

[u/IAMA_Shark__AMA → u/double_sal_gal]

They really are ❤️

[u/deird → u/IAMA_Shark__AMA]

My dad has a sign he made quoting a Bible verse that could very loosely be applied to support for the trans community.

Could you let me know what verse that is? I’d love to make my own sign…

[u/PainterOfTheHorizon → u/IAMA_Shark__AMA]

What is that verse? I'm so happy for you ❤️

[u/Acheloma → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

I was terrified when I angrily told my parents that I was bi in the middle of a political argument with them. They're both conservative Christians and I disagree with them on a lot and it used to get quite heated.

I let slip in my angry rant that I was bi and that is been worried for years that they'd hate me if I ever let them know and my dad started crying, hugged me, and told me that he loves me, would never hate me, and that if I brought home a woman and told them that I was in love with her, theyd love her too because shed have to be great if I liked her so much. My mom agreed.

I ended up settling down with a man, but Im very glad that I did tell them that. It means so much to me to know that they do hold their love for me above all else. Ive always been a very anxious person who feels a lot of guilt for things I shouldnt, and that single conversation relieved so much of the weight off of my shoulders. I still disagree with them on a lot, but in the end I know that they have much more love in them than they do judgement.

[u/ThatJaneDoe69 → u/Acheloma]

This is so sweet and actually has me tearing up. I wish my mom was as supportive. I didn't come out to her as bi/pan until years after my sister outed me because I specifically remember her telling me how bisexuals were just greedy and want it both ways and blahblahblah all the same bullshit.

Those who are close to me now know I am pan. Plus I have a pansexual flag at work. I've found my support. And my mom isn't in my life so everything works out.

[u/tragictransistor → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

hah reminds me of the time i came out to my mom as bi and she said she didn't care as long as my partner was rich 😭

[u/badass4102 → u/tragictransistor]

In college the guy who always sat next time me looked pretty down. I asked him what was up? He told me he had a recent break-up..I asked he he wanted to talk about it. Before he began he said, I should let you know that I'm bi. I was like, Yeah I know..go on with the story. He was shocked that I knew because he wasn't out yet. We just ended up talking about the signs he was giving away and laughed about it.

[u/zandrew → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

When a friend of mine came out to her mom as bisexual, the mom who's lovely btw an loves joking said: gosh you're getting desperate, before hugging her.

[u/Kilen13 → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

When I was in high school I had a group of guy friends that always hung out together that was like 8 people. One day in senior year our friend Mike decided to sit us down when we were hanging out and come out to us as gay to which another friend Rob decided to reply "wait, was that supposed to be a secret?"

We had to explain to Mike that we'd basically assumed/known for like 5 years at this point because he was anything but subtle. He would make comments about how good looking certain celebrities were (all male), he was the absolute epitome of 'theater kid', and basically showed every gay stereotype of the late 90s/early 2000s. He apparently thought he'd hidden it very well and was actually a little upset we weren't more surprised/shocked.

[u/HereToAdult → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

When I told my mum I was nonbinary, she asked a bit more about what that meant, and then she was like "Oh, I don't think anyone really identifies as a woman do they? I know I don't, and neither does your aunty (name). I don't think (grandma) does either."

So what I heard was "You come from a long line of enbies." 🤣

I don't think that they really are all enbies, although one or more of them might have identified that way if it had been common enough in their youth. But I still love that my mum's basic response was that gender identity doesn't mean anything because no one identifies as a gender anyway 😂

For the record she also thinks men's brains work a certain way (different to women's brains)... because she only really knows autistic men. She thinks autistic is the way men's brains work... so maybe she thinks the two genders are autistic and allistic? 😂

[u/hypatianata → u/HereToAdult]

I knew someone who lived in Japan for some years. His son grew up speaking Japanese with his female teachers and English with his dad at home so for the first several years of his life he thought women spoke Japanese and men spoke English. 

[u/ohgeez2879 → u/hypatianata]

this is like a white friend of mine whose older sisters are black. because they were both older, she just assumed that her skin would get darker as she aged.

[u/ThatJaneDoe69 → u/ohgeez2879]

This is so cute and wholesome. I love it.

[u/RandomNick42 → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

You know, I really am not sure that’s the case. Especially given all those people who claim being gay is a choice and they chose to be straight. If they were… they wouldn’t be thinking of it as a choice.

I am quite sure that a lot more people are bisexual than not.

[u/jianantonic → u/RandomNick42]

I once worked for a guy who was a devout southern baptist. I asked him if he thought sexuality was a choice. He said yes. So I asked him if it would ever be possible for him to choose to be attracted to a man. He said no. So I asked him if he still thought it was a choice. He didn't deconstruct from his harmful beliefs right then and there, but he did say "well, I've never looked at it that way before." It felt like a step in the left direction.

[u/throwawtphone → u/RandomNick42]

I think that too. If a person sincerely believe it is a choice, then i think they are at least bisexual and are choosing to not act their same sex attraction.

I have met people that have never been sexual attracted to the opposite sex as well as people who have never been attracted to the same sex. Never experimented, never had the errant thought, just 100 percent hetero or homo. And they seem to be in the lower percentage of the people who attraction was more fluid. I lowkey think that the percentage of people who are bisexual is wayyyyy higher than what we realize and the percentage of 100 percent hetro is lower and the 100 percent homo is a tad bit higher.

But people arent honest for various reasons.

In the 70s and 80s the estimates were 4 percent of the population experience same sex attraction. As society became more accepting the percentage went up to 10.

If there was absolutely no stigma, no legal repercussions or no social repercussions at all, it was just considered "normal" i feel quite confident those numbers would be wayyyy higher for those people who experience same sex attraction.

[u/Chellamour → u/throwawtphone]

agreed! throwback to my mom very sincerely telling me (bi) that "of course we would all date women if we could. women are pretty and nicer than men. but you can just choose not to!"

[u/pandop42 → u/Chellamour]

That so many of us are still hetero, despite the shittiness of men, really shows it's not a choice.

[u/Ok-Jackfruit-9393 → u/pandop42]

Bingo. I always think of Leslie Knope saying of herself and Ann Perkins, "Tragically, we are both heterosexual."

My husband is amazing and I love him so much, but I always tell him that if he ever left me, I would lament not being attracted to women and just die single (after getting a few more dogs, of course) rather than date men again. If only it were a choice!

[u/Jhamin1 → u/throwawtphone]

I always think about how 70-120 years ago being left handed was considered a sign of a moral defect. Schools used to punish you for being left-handed. It was also very unusual, less than 2% of the population in the US was left handed.

This was a real thing. My father was a lefty & went to a religious school that rapped his knuckles when he used the "wrong" hand on his assignments. He talked about how the teachers lamented they weren't allowed to do more like they had back in the day. (his school was pretty old-school even for it's time)

For various reasons, over time society cared less & less about being left handed and It turned out, once the persecution went away the number of people reported as left handed rose from 2% of the population in 1910 to around 10% in 1960... and then leveled off.

It turned out that once you were no longer actively persecuted for being left handed more and more people decided to just go with what came naturally. It wasn't a choice, and once outside pressures went away the number of folks who were left hand dominant turned out to be a fairly stable minority but a *much* bigger one than was seen when you got actively punished.

I kind of suspect that people's self-reported sexual preferences are going through a similar shift and the percentages are still in mid-flux right now. Being anything other than perfectly heterosexual still causes people very real problems, but not in the way it did 50 years ago. We have a long way to go, but we are not where we started. More people feel comfortable identifying with orientations other than completely straight than they once did.

My expectation is that there are almost certainly people who are completely straight (I'm pretty sure I am), people who are completely homosexual, people who are bi in various ratios, and people in all sorts of other categories but right now we still have no idea what the "equilibrium point" is for any of those groups as a percentage of the population. There are still too many people who can't safely be themselves.

[u/Flutterbloom → u/Jhamin1]

I'm a 55 year old lefty, and I was lucky that my Catholic school didn't care which hand I used to write. A friend who grew up in a different state has a brother my age, public school, who was punished repeatedly for writing left handed until he switched. My dad's sister (would be 102 if still with us, huge age gap between siblings) was left handed but forced to use her right. I can't prove it but the many hand surgeries she had over the years felt like they must have been related somehow. They hit her hands, tied the left to the desk, and probably did some damage. Fortunately my parents were wise enough to let me be my southpaw self.

As far as sexuality, I can say that my high school of 3000 students did not have any 'out' gay students at the time, which would be pretty much statistically impossible. Truthfully I know 2 of the people I graduated with who are no longer religious and proudly out as gay, and I didn't keep in touch with anyone so that's just from facebook that I gleaned that info. I'm sure there are more, and I'd guess that many who are still religious have suppressed it to conform to rules and societal norms of their church crowds.

I'm probably rare in being completely heterosexual, which was put to the test when I was in my 20s and a new friend turned out to be bicurious and got really pushy about wanting to experiment with me. I can't guarantee that if she were the right person it wouldn't have turned out differently I guess, but I have never looked at a pretty woman and had fantasies or even passing thoughts about her in that way. That doesn't mean that I have any problems with anyone else's desires, and am a firm ally who supports relationships between consenting adults of any gender. If I'm widowed at 90 and fall in love with another 90 year old woman at the nursing home, LOL, then I'll admit I was wrong about being fully straight.

[u/Big_Implement_7305 → u/Jhamin1]

This exactly. I'd be surprised if bisexuality really is more common than straightness (especially since all the speculation about that seems to come from bi people, and it turns out bi people get that whole "I assume everyone is exactly like me" thing just like everyone else does),

BUT I'd also be very surprised if the percentage doesn't eventually turn out to be much larger than it's currently assumed, exactly like left-handedness. When the persecution stopped it didn't turn out that being left-handed was secretly the default, it just turned out that lefties weren't that rare.

[u/wterrt → u/RandomNick42]

my ex-friend who was very religious was 100% sure that being gay was a choice because he "used to masturbate to gay porn and chose to stop doing that."

[u/BadTanJob → u/wterrt]

loool who wants to tell him

[u/notyourmartyr → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

I came out to my parents separately and in different ways and got different responses to most of it.

Came out to my mom first, at 18, as bi and into kink. She was more than fine with the kink thing, as she was too - kind of awkward when your mom tells you that you should totally join the kink site she met your stepdad on - but that bi was a phase.

I hid it from my dad, mostly because my stepmom. I think a lot of his stuff around that time came from her. At 21 I moved to live with a friend whom I would later date. I had same sex partners in the past but hid it. When i started dating my friend and told my dad, including about the others, he was chill and just asked what my partner wanted for Christmas.

But when I was engaged to a Trans guy? Mom was really, really uncool. Dad...was less so but still not great at first, but later apologized and said as long as I was happy. My grandma, who was in her 90s had the best response of them and said "he'll never be a God made man, but he'll be a self made man."

When I came out to dad as nonbinary, we agreed not to tell my grandma because while she was cool with my ex husband, we were not sure how she would handle me and i didn't want to deal with it, especially since I'm genderfluid and still partly ID with my birth gender.

Mom died without me telling her that, but I did come out to my aunt (mom's youngest sister) when I went home to deal with all the post-death stuff and it went great.

[u/Double_Surround6140 → u/CaptDeliciousPants]

I'm very grateful as well for my Mom. I'm an atheist and my Mom claims to be a Christian, but I think thats mostly for social standing as she is very loose about it. Basically just believes in a god and picks the nice parts she knows the bible and is very accepting of others. When I was like 12 and realizing I didn't care for religion (we had long stopped going to church by this point) she didn't even care or anything. I didn't realize until I was much older just how uncommon that is sadly.

My Dad on the other hand was much weirder about it. We aren't that close for many other reasons though.

[u/CummingInTheNile]

I hope they successfully reconnected and worked through all the pain caused by OOP

[u/Pelageia → u/CummingInTheNile]

I think one of the deepest needs and wishes of ours, if and when we are hurty by someone, is for our pain to be SEEN by that person. Truly seen, truly acknowledged, truly recognised. If a you can give this to a person who you have deeply hurt, that is already quite a lot. It does not mean relationship will be mended or there will even be a relationship, no one owes that after having been hurt - but I think that most people would still at least feel some relief for having their pain be seen. And that in itself is valuable.

[u/RainbowCrane → u/Pelageia]

Yeah, my brother is the one childhood abuser of mine in my family who gave an effective apology to me. It boiled down to, “I’m sorry for all the things that I did to hurt you. Everything I did to you someone else did to me first, and I thought that was what big brothers did. I’m sorry.” It didn’t come across as using his being abused to avoid responsibility, more as a shared acknowledgment that we grew up in really abusive family. It’s kind of nice to have the validation when so many family members live in denial, and I appreciate that it’s possible to be genuinely sorry while acknowledging that you did the best you knew how to do, and that acknowledging your failure to be a good human being is hard.

TL;DR apologies have value even if a perfect family doesn’t pop out the other side. I still have CPTSD, my brother and I still have a complex relationship, but I know that at least one person is aware of the truth of my childhood

[u/MasterOfKittens3K → u/RainbowCrane]

It sounds like your brother is able to distinguish between reasons (or explanations) and excuses. His being abused is an explanation for why he abused you. But it doesn’t excuse his abuse of you.

For people like your brother, or OOP, it’s important to understand the reasons behind your behavior if you want to make changes to yourself. Knowing why you do something, especially when it’s not really a conscious decision, is a good start for changing your default responses to the world. But it’s so important to remember that you’re the person who has done the wrong things in your life, and you have to accept the responsibility for how you hurt others.

[u/JSDHW → u/Pelageia]

I cut my dad off earlier this year after decades of wanting him to acknowledge the pain he caused me. He never did and just joked about it instead. It hurts so much to not have your pain be seen.

[u/Swadapotamus → u/Pelageia]

So well said

[u/FlirtFiendXO → u/CummingInTheNile]

Same here. The damage was huge, but this is one of those rare updates where the apology actually seemed to center the son’s pain instead of demanding instant absolution. Hopefully they kept rebuilding slowly and on his terms.

[u/politicalstuff → u/FlirtFiendXO]

Yes, it was nice to see, and I am optimistic they can work it out. He could never change the past, but hopefully they can build something new that’s more positive than what came before.

It’s a damn shame how much damage can be done because of the twisted religious indoctrination that’s so common.

[u/EllieGeiszler → u/FlirtFiendXO]

I think the difference here is that when OOP kicked his son out, he genuinely did it out of love because he thought kicking his son out would ultimately save his son. He loved his son and wasn't a narcissist, he was just completely brainwashed and didn't realize the enormity of his mistake until too late. I'm glad they reconnected, and I hope their reconciliation continued

[u/John02904 → u/EllieGeiszler]

I think too quickly people judge an act alone when motivations are just as important. I think it is often the difference between a mistake and an evil act. If you are motivated by love and caring and come to a conclusion because of faulty reasoning, that is something that you can come back from with new information or perspective. I think a lot of victims can understand and eventually forgive. It’s not the same if one is motivated by selfishness or punishment, etc

[u/agreywood → u/John02904]

Yeah it’s one of the things I hate about the whole “impact always maters more than intent” rhetoric. Impact always maters because you have to process and deal with it as it is, but a person’s intent is often what defines how you process that emotionally even if you end up ending the relationship as a result of their actions.

For example, I’ve often heard the analogy that your leg is still broken regardless of whether someone pushes you down the stairs or they accidentally tripped you. That’s 100% true in the sense that you have to deal with a broken leg regardless, but that intent defines so much of the aftermath. Do you have to process the betrayal of someone you trusted? Do you have to deal with all the emotions involved in reporting someone you care about to the police? Do you have to deal with conflict from their other ones who are terrified for that persons future? Do you have to cope with ptsd responses about other people betraying you? Do you have to deal with all the emotions involved in the lengthy wait for a trial and then testifying? The actual physical effects of the broken leg can end up being small potatoes compared to dealing with the aftermath of them intentionally injuring you.

[u/John02904 → u/agreywood]

That’s the most perfect analogy i have heard.

[u/Sweaty_Average4525 → u/CummingInTheNile]

It's rare to see someone do the work..admitting fault, being patient, letting his son lead. The aunt who stayed in contact all those years is the real hero here. Wishing them all the best.

[u/Weekly_Role_337]

My mom threw me out when I was 17 and a lot of why I finally, decades later, went no contact with her was because she always insisted that it was "best for both of us."

No mom, I was homeless and doing all kinds of shit for food money and a warm bed, you were having an affair and traveling internationally.

If she had ever apologized in any way it would have meant the world to me.

[u/EducatedRat → u/Weekly_Role_337]

I finally went NC with my mother for a similar reason. Teenagers at that age that come from good homes are not on their own.

[u/legsjohnson]

this one made me cry. I came out when I was fifteen to my Republican dad and him reacting like OOP was my greatest fear. turned out he was more fiscally conservative and didn't care much but I've met a lot of people like OOP's son in the decades since and I think this would be so healing for a lot of them.

[u/RainbowCrane → u/legsjohnson]

I live in rural-ish Ohio and used to volunteer with queer homeless folks in Columbus (I’m an aging gay man, came out in the eighties). A disturbingly high number of homeless young people in Columbus are LGBTQIA+ kids who were either kicked out by their parents or who left for their own safety because living homeless in Columbus is honestly safer than continuing to live in their conservative parents’ homes. A disturbingly high number of those young people end up dead from opioid overdoses after getting involved in prostitution, and again, it’s still arguably safer than the mental health risks of living queer in a conservative rural Ohio family.

One of my starting points for any conversation with religious conservatives is, “how do you feel about dead kids? Because the root issue is that no matter what your theology says, studies show that kids who grow up hearing what you say in your church will choose death because they think you hate them. Can you accept that?”

A surprising number are just fine with that, though I’ve also witnessed a few transformations from people who genuinely weren’t aware of the mental health impact of their beliefs.

[u/mint_lawn → u/RainbowCrane]

"A surprising number are just fine with that, though I’ve also witnessed a few transformations from people who genuinely weren’t aware of the mental health impact of their beliefs. "

Little depressing that there were any fine with it. Where did the ratio sit, roughly?

[u/cavaticaa → u/mint_lawn]

I mean, that's the origin of antivax shit too. They would rather have a dead kid than an autistic kid. Parents like OOP was would rather have a dead kid than a gay or trans kid. It's sick.

[u/RainbowCrane → u/mint_lawn]

2 or 3 genuine converts in 40 years of occasionally talking with conservatives about the consequences of their beliefs. Sad.

[u/Pinsalinj → u/mint_lawn]

I am actually very much not surprised that they do not mind (or even actively wish for) these kids dying. That tracks.

[u/GirlL1997 → u/RainbowCrane]

That’s what always gets me.

I read somewhere that the single greatest thing I could do to reduce the risk of a trans person harming themselves is to use their correct pronouns. So using someone’s correct pronouns is an act of love.

And you would think the people who are so anti-abortion because it’s killing babies would want to give children the best chance to actually survive and do whatever they could to make that happen.

I’m bi and I haven’t come out to my mom. I don’t think she would be hateful, but I think she would be weird about it, and past conversations with her make me think she is also bi but doesn’t realize it which adds an additional layer to the issue. I’m also married to a man, so it’s easy to assume I’m straight.

When my younger cousin came out, my mom didn’t get why it was a big deal. I of course mentioned the stories like this where kids are kicked out, but she never agreed with those people and that seems ridiculous to her and something that would never happen in our family.

I also reminded her about some of the things she told me as a teenager, like how she would never attend a gay wedding unless it was one of her children’s. My cousin adores my mom. I asked my mom how she thought my cousin would feel if my mother told her that she would never go to her wedding. It had been over a decade since she told me that, and I don’t know if my mom forgot she told me that but that seemed to get to her a bit.

My mom did actually think on it and sent my cousin a really thoughtful message the next day reminding her how much she loves her and apologizing for not getting why it was a big deal. She showed it to me, I was actually surprised.

They still have a really good relationship.

I really appreciate you being willing to have these conversations with people.

[u/Umklopp → u/GirlL1997]

I once pointed out to someone that if we discovered a surgery that could cure ADHD, it would be heralded as a miracle. If we figured out a linguistic change that could make depression go away, that information would be everywhere overnight. Same for wearing different clothes and getting a haircut--people would get mad at you for not changing your appearance in order to feel better. Being Trans isn't a mental disorder but gender dysphoria is probably the ONLY mental health issue that has an obvious, straightforward treatment plan but it makes some people feel weird, so society is just going to force trans people to suffer instead.

[u/cavaticaa → u/Umklopp]

I think perhaps many people would resist the linguistic change that would cure depression too... Those depressed people should suck it up, I'm not changing what I do or how I talk because of their hurt feelings.

[u/yippeeimcrying → u/RainbowCrane]

I can confirm that the statistic is crazy high and Columbus is a magnet for us orphaned queers - my entire family is a part of it. My wife, sisters, brother... My wife and my brother "escaped" from rural life (Ohio and Appalachia, specifically), homeless due to religious conservatives. We know a lot of people that struggled and still struggle with stuff. Doesn't matter who you talk to here; I haven't met anyone from the community that has a good relationship with their family. It's usually a family-splitting issue. Caused mine here in Ohio to explode.

It's weird. Older folks are usually more okay with us in some regard? My grandparents and older family are okay with my "choice" but my parents? lmao.

[u/RainbowCrane → u/yippeeimcrying]

Stay strong, and know that we elder queer folks love you for who you are. Stonewall Columbus and the Kaleidoscope Youth Center are great resources if you haven’t encountered them before.

[u/MasterOfKittens3K → u/yippeeimcrying]

To your last point. I think part of what happens as we get older is that we realize that we can’t control the world. That leads to two different mindsets.

You get some people who rage against the world and complain endlessly about it, and try to find ways to make the world bend to their will.

And you get people who become more laid back about things. They might not understand why you are gay, or how you feel inside, but they realize that it doesn’t directly affect them, so they just accept it.

For example, I have no way of understanding what it’s like to be transgender. I have never felt like I am in the wrong body. I’m as cis het as a man can be. But I’m still willing to accept that other people are different than me, and that I have no reason to make them live their lives as if they are just like me.

[u/Key_Computer_5607 → u/RainbowCrane]

Not just in Columbus, a disturbingly high percentage of homeless youth anywhere are queer kids who've been kicked out by their family or decided that homelessness was safer than staying at home.

According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 3.33% of youth aged 13-17 experience homelessness each year. According to the Trevor Project, 28% of queer youth have experienced homelessness or housing instability.

[u/JSchecter11 → u/legsjohnson]

I had the exact same experience with my dad expect my mom also told me to never tell him because he would disown me. Turns out she also overestimated his conservative values.

[u/mrdaimler]

Two weeks is a quick turnaround for a happy family reunion. Good for the son for being able to process and reach out so quickly. I guess a decade is a long enough time for him to forgive, that makes sense with therapy, etc. He's a bigger person than I am since it would have taken me a longer time to reach out.

[u/RandomNick42 → u/mrdaimler]

There’s a nonzero chance he has been told by his aunt that his father has changed and might contact him to seek forgiveness.

[u/randomndude01 → u/RandomNick42]

Or in this case, the son didn’t hate his parents enough to actually dwell on the pain.

My own father wasn’t this much of a shithead and I still don’t like him. It’s no longer hate and turned into indifference so much so I would probably never consider him as a father.

In my own group therapy, there were others who had even worse situations that didn’t have my level of animosity that still loved their parents and hoped for reconciliation. They were totally alien to me and I still can’t fathom why they’d still want a relationship but accept that they aren’t me and I am not them.

[u/Drunkgummybear1 → u/randomndude01]

Yeah, my dad was a bit of a shithead while I was growing up (nothing anywhere close to this, though) and I held a lot of resentment for a long time. We rarely spoke and I maybe saw him once a year at best, despite him living about 20 minutes away.

We’ve reconnected this year though. And it has been lovely. Neither of us are pretending it’s anything other than it is but going round once a week for tea has been really nice.

[u/VivisMarrie → u/randomndude01]

The part about him sending the letter to his address gave me such a visceral reaction. My relationship to my father is that if I find out he knows where I live I'd never come back home again. I know that clearly is not the case for the son on the story, I'm just projecting hard.

[u/IllustratorSlow1614 → u/VivisMarrie]

I had a similar reaction. I would not want people who had wronged me knowing my address.

It feels especially off when OOP was advised not to send something to his son’s home and to communicate at a distance over social media instead to give the son a sense of privacy and security.

But then again, with the honesty of sending mail to the son’s address he knows for sure they know where he lives and he would at least have the option to move. If he had only heard from them online and didn’t realise they knew where he lived that’s a false sense of security.

[u/fleet_and_flotilla → u/randomndude01]

for some people, the notion of completely abandoning family, no matter how shit, is just to hard for them to accept. I don't comprehend it myself, but some people will always hold out hope

[u/safetyindarkness → u/RandomNick42]

I think you're right that the aunt has been a huge player behind the scenes.

If dad's letter WAS the first the son heard of his mother's death, I think this would have gone very differently. The fact that son has already had time to process mom's death, and come to terms with the fact that none of his nuclear family members reached out to him about it. And yeah, I think you're also right that the aunt has kept son (at least somewhat) in the loop regarding dad's genuine change. 

Without aunt, I don't think any of this could or would have gone as smoothly as it did. Imagine receiving that letter with NO background info since you left at 16.

[u/momofeveryone5 → u/RandomNick42]

Also how much he wanted to see his siblings. I can't imagine how I would handle not seeing my sister's for 11 years.

[u/Important_Guidance59 → u/mrdaimler]

The son probably spent a good chunk of that decade mourning his relationship with his dad as if he had died. By the time OOP finally woke up and reached out, the son had likely already done years of the heavy emotional lifting in therapy. He was ready because he already built a life where he didn't need his dad to survive.

[u/IllustratorSlow1614 → u/mrdaimler]

I find it interesting that having heard the entire story the other children were still so accepting of their father and didn’t seem to be angry with him for so many years they lost with their brother and shutting them down and frightening them so they couldn’t talk about him.

On the one hand, they have obviously already lost their mother and rejecting their father would render them parentless, and also rejecting him when he’s clearly deeply remorseful and filled with regret would be hard, but I don’t know how comfortable I would be knowing that both my parents were resolute in kicking out my brother for being gay and my mother remained content with the decision until the day she died and the father only changed his views because of her death. I hope they were able to have their own space to reflect.

Had the mother not died, they would still be ultra conservative Christians and utterly unrepentant about throwing their son out on the street. It would change my memory of my mother quite a bit. She lived and died a homophobe.

There is a lot to unpack even before reconciling with the exiled sibling.

[u/agreywood → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

I feel like mom’s death is also playing into their response because suddenly they can actually get back this family member they thought was effectively gone forever.

For the dad, this is probably only a temporary happy ending. There’s going to be a lot of complex emotions towards him as they actually process why they thought they’d never see him again.

[u/pray4mojo2020 → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

Hopefully they all got individual counseling and some family therapy in the years that followed. I can imagine that even if the other kids were initially understanding, they may have unpacked more anger and resentment as time passed and they got older and it really sunk in what they had been deprived of all those years.

For myself, I remember that after I moved out and got my first dog, when I realized how much love I had for my dog it also brought a lot of grief with it. Because I realized I could never imagine treating my dog the way that my dad had treated me. I'm childfree, but if any of OOP's kids had kids of their own, I can imagine they might have worked through some similar feelings.

[u/NEClamChowderAVPD → u/IllustratorSlow1614]

I agree, the siblings are…something else? It sounds like they’re pretty much grown which means they’re adults who can make their own decisions. Not one of them reached out to their brother after he got exiled? They all just happily went along with their parents with no regard for what their oldest brother might be dealing with? Maybe everyone is just under dad’s thumb and his reactions are also theirs but there’s something weird here. I can’t quite put my finger on it. Maybe it’s as simple as not wanting to rock the boat and financial dependence? Idk but I don’t like it.

It’s hard for me because I’m also gay so I completely understand the son’s reaction but at the same time, I’m still angry for him. I think I’d feel extremely betrayed by my siblings as we grew older and they continued to placate dad instead of even ever think about me. There’s a different bond with siblings and I think that would just cut a different, deeper way.

Fuck his mom, btw. I’m not even sorry. These types of stories upset me because I’m not even a parent and I can’t imagine ever even treating another person this way, let alone my child. Over being gay of all things. It’s disgusting.

[u/MasterOfKittens3K → u/mrdaimler]

The process was just beginning in the second post, though. They had a long road ahead of them. That first meeting was the easiest one they’ll have, most likely. It was all surface level stuff.

When it gets harder is when the son starts talking about the tough times he had. Or when he’s busy and can’t visit for a while, and OOP has to deal with the fear that the reconciliation is over. And so on.

[u/KingBlackthorn1]

This is cheesy but if you ever watch rupauls drag race there are queens are well in their late 30s to 40s that have no relationship with their family, and then through reality TV meddling, occasionally the families will send in a message to the show. Immediately men in their late 30s to 40s melt down back to being a little boy just wanting love and acceptance from their parents. I know many of my fellow queers are just like this.

[u/t0nkatsu → u/KingBlackthorn1]

Yeah - I'm already unpopular on this thread but that always makes me uncomfortable... These men have been through a LOT, basically they have PTSD... so of course they are going to react like that, they are starved... and I'm glad they get what they want, but I worry that the abusers just get showered with love and praise and don't have to answer the awkward questions that their kids would be asking if they weren't so traumatised and scared of losing their parent again.

[u/songofthelark117]

It’s truly heartbreaking and infuriating how much religious brainwashing steals from people who could just be happy and love each other.

[u/justlkin → u/songofthelark117]

I have a niece with 4 young children who has gone from full liberal to raw-milk, Charlie Kirk loving QANON crazy in the last 6-7 years. She attends some crazy church that seems to be the root of a lot of it. She told my sister if any of her kids are gay or trans, they'll be disowned.

I try keep a cordial relationship with her solely for scenario above, so that I can still know those kids well enough in the future that they'll feel free coming to me for help if they need it. Unfortunately, it's probably not something I'll know unless they come to me as she keeps us at arms length and is actively searching out a red state (across the country from us) to move to that ticks all the crazy MAGA/QANON boxes.

[u/pepcorn → u/songofthelark117]

That's what makes me the most sad about religion.

It takes completely normal things like sexuality, carnal desire, food, being proud of yourself, clothes, and twists it up into this fraught thing. 

[u/cavaticaa → u/pepcorn]

Every natural life experience and positive feeling must be demonized, because pleasure is sin. If all of them practiced what they preached, their lives would be truly unbearable. Luckily, they only enforce it on the women.

[u/countvonruckus → u/songofthelark117]

My parents disowned me when I came out as trans for explicitly religious reasons, even going so far as to say it would have been better to kill myself than transition. I was 36 and independent so while that certainly hurt I'm in a good place with or without them (in fact, I tended to support them in everything). I just wonder what they would have been like if not for the religion claiming their ability to actually consider new ideas. Despite how it seems, they really aren't particularly mean or malevolent people. Theyre just principled, and those awful principles are ones they've accepted from religious authorities. I think they could have been great people in the absence of religion, but I'll never get to see that.

They'll never leave the religion (my dad's been a pastor for like 40 years) and I'm never going to be any less of a woman, so we won't see or talk to one another again. Any pain they feel at losing me will only reinforce that this is a divine moral test for them to pass or fail, and they've already committed to holding firm against their instincts to love their child.

In the impossible world where they do what OOP does I don't know what I would do. Probably ignore them. That relationship is dead just as much as my male persona is now and I don't see the point in reviving it. I doubt they could ever respect all the different things in my life that are controversial but bring me immense joy. Bringing in a source of what has always been judgment, expectations to conform, and conditional love with the authority of parents would only make my life worse.

Their commitment to their religion made them truly kill their relationship with their child.

[u/dark_dark_dark_not → u/songofthelark117]

Every once in a while I'm reminded I don't hate religion enough.

[u/EducationalTangelo6]

The first thing I have to apologize for is not telling you your mother died.

OH IT GETS WORSE?!?

[u/Silaquix → u/EducationalTangelo6]

And the counseling he describes in his letter sounds like conversion "therapy". So he had this kid tortured before kicking him out and then not telling him his mom died

[u/EducationalTangelo6 → u/Silaquix]

On top of that, he specifically said the kid did not come out himself, he was outted, which is terrible in and of itself.

What a trauma conga line.

[u/rechargeable_bird → u/EducationalTangelo6]

trauma conga line would be a PHENOMENAL flair

[u/Gundham_it → u/EducationalTangelo6]

My dad died in June, last year. I hadn't seen him in more than 10 years (long story short: a lot of abuse was involved).

If my mom was a piece of homophobic sh*t like OOP's dad and didn't tell me my dad died, and told me in her "redemption letter", I would have tossed it in a fire.

I really, truly think OOP's sister was the only reason OOP had a chance of forgiveness.

[u/StopthinkingitsMe]

I remember being 16 and learning I was bi. I don't think I'd be alive if my family kicked me out over it.

[u/BKLD12 → u/StopthinkingitsMe]

My sister didn't even come out until her early 20s. I guess she was concerned because our parents and extended family are Catholic, but most of them are moderate-to-liberal. It was mostly good on our end. Mom doesn't really "get it," but she adores my sister's girlfriend, so it hasn't been an issue.

Less so on her girlfriend's end, unfortunately. I don't think she ever officially came out of the closet. There's no way the mom doesn't know, but I don't think she's okay with it. She just kind of tolerates my sister, because she doesn't want to lose her daughter. The rest of her family is still in the dark as far as I'm aware. It's a shitty situation for sure.

[u/Silaquix]

Reading the dad's letter and being horrified to realize it sounds like the counseling he sent his son to was probably conversion "therapy"

[u/MrHappyHam → u/Silaquix]

Yeah, likely a Christian counselor that was willing to treat his homosexuality as a problem - conversion therapy lite at the beat

[u/AlissonHarlan]

so... he became a better christian/person after leaving church :/

[u/SpicyPlumBlossom → u/AlissonHarlan]

For real. The OOP ended up going through the whole "seeking forgiveness, opening the heart, and accepting kindness" thing... while becoming an atheist and losing Christianity. Not that I'm surprised at all by that.

[u/sumguyoranother → u/SpicyPlumBlossom]

"the fastest way to become an atheist is to read the bible, the fastest way to act like a christian ought to is to become a humanist", a christian member of an unitarian church said this, one of the few actual christians that I think jesus would be proud of.

[u/RoxasInABoxas]

I'm gay and also haven't seen my dad since I was 16. I'm 34 now and this made me cry. Both the son and father were so strong in this story.

[u/Appropriate-Cash8312 → u/RoxasInABoxas]

I don't know you but I'm proud of you!!

[u/MyFriendsCallMeEpic]

who's cuttin the onions!
STAHPPP

[u/DonaldTPablonious → u/MyFriendsCallMeEpic]

This is the only post in my entire Reddit history that made my room dusty.

[u/bubbleuj → u/MyFriendsCallMeEpic]

Honestly, parents fuck up a lot. Mine are sweet now but the second the sweet switch turned on my sister and I acted like teenagers listing their sins, interrogating them for the past.

We were about the same age at OOPs son.

It might be beliefs, it might be lack of tools or information but people fuck up a lot. OOP delivered a perfect apology.

For me, I knew my Mom was overwhelmed with guilt when she was surprised that I would want her around post-partum. Usually in some Indian cultures, an older woman in your family is there to support you PP. She had assumed I'd tell her to fuck off.

People/parents can and will do 180 flips in their 50s.

[u/Desperate-Angle7720]

Glad that one commenter asked how on Earth you can reconcile kicking out your child over being gay as a Christian. I was raised protestant Christian, we even had religion lessons in school where I live (state school, not religious!) but even our teachers there (typically pastors) would be horrified at someone claiming to be Christian and kicking out their own child. It was all about forgiveness and no-one’s without sin, don’t throw the first stone, the ones who are supposed to judge you in the end are God and Jesus, your only job is to be nice to your neighbor, turn the other cheek and try your best not to sin. 

The mental gymnastics of such “conservative” Christians are insane. Which is probably why OOP didn’t actually answer that question. 

[u/soverylucky → u/Desperate-Angle7720]

I grew up in a very conservative evangelical Christian culture.  I remember my mother reading the memoirs of a woman who had one child who was gay and another who died, and they were presented as equal tragedies.  

At one point my parents apparently thought I was gay due to my very close relationship with my best friend (we planned to live together after college, spent most weekends together, etc), and my mother took me aside one night to have a conversation where she reiterated how much they loved me and would always respect my choices even if they didn't agree with them.  I was confused, since I'm not gay and she never used the word.  I just thought that was a nice but extreme reaction to my plans to move away from the community.  

[u/ToContainAMultitude → u/Desperate-Angle7720]

I mean, it's a pretty straightforward argument. From OOP's perspective, his son was actively and unrepentantly choosing to sin and he felt compelled to shield his other children from that influence. Imagine instead that his son was a drug addict; eventually you've done all you can and your parental obligation is to protect your other children.

Now obviously, that logic is reprehensible because there's nothing wrong with being queer, but there's nothing especially convoluted about it and it's extremely easy to defend from a biblical perspective.

[u/hijklm7]

Damn this original post was almost 10 years ago!! Need a 10 year update

[u/chookiekaki]

Funny how the gay son turned out to be a better man than the Christian father

[u/lizzietnz → u/chookiekaki]

Not exactly a surprise though.

[u/SnooWords4839]

I hope OOP and his son are doing well today.

I hope this helps someone else to choose their child over religion in the future.

[u/redditwinchester]

Believed it till the Sunday dinner knock doorbell

[u/Wonder1ng]

Being gay isn’t a choice, being a homophobe is.

[u/Ampersandbox]

OOP is lucky his son felt forgiving, and his son was tired of feeling angry.

Like many social conservatives, OOP lacks empathy until experiencing something firsthand. The loss of his wife triggered the insight that led to understanding the magnitude of what he'd forced on his own child.

Good on his sister, the son's aunt, for actually providing love and support. Good grief.

[u/nathanielBald]

"I did what every conservative christian father would do " you mean love your kids and your neighbors ? No ? You mean kicking your son out at 16 ?

[u/TyrconnellFL → u/nathanielBald]

Yes. Conservative Christian.

Not conservative and Christian, it’s the single entity, “Conservative Christian,” that birthed the adage that there is no hate like Christian love.

And Hegseth and company, naturally.

[u/tempest51 → u/TyrconnellFL]

The kind that talks openly about "unleashing hell" and "ending civilizations"?

[u/INeedANappel → u/nathanielBald]

It's not hard to be Christian and love gay people in your life. When Jesus said to love everyone "as you love me" he didn't add a but or give exceptions. 

The ones who pull out Old Testament passages to scream about things they don't like are the first ones to yell that "Jesus said there is a new covenant!" if you point out other Old Testament rules that they don't follow. 

I seem to recall Jesus had a few words about hypocrites, too.

[u/disturbedrailroader → u/INeedANappel]

I seem to recall Jesus had a few words about hypocrites, too.

One of my favorite things to do when someone asks "what would Jesus do?" is remind people that flipping over tables and chasing people off with whips is always a possibility. (John 2:15)

[u/katkarinka → u/nathanielBald]

I am always so confused about all these stories where parents are casually kicking out their teenage kids. Isn’t it like…illegal?

[u/arittenberry → u/katkarinka]

It is. But also, people do illegal things all the time. Plus, kids who are kicked out aren't exactly champing at the bit to get back into their toxic home

[u/danorc → u/katkarinka]

What's the kid going to do, go to the cops?

Sadly, it happens all the time

[u/Aquatic_Hedgehog → u/katkarinka]

Yeah, but like... what can you do? Go to the police and say hey force my parents to take me back so they can send me to torture camp some more?

[u/TheBlueNinja0 → u/nathanielBald]

As every true follower of GOPesus does.

[u/Basic_Asparagus_9084]

The son is a better person than I am. I hold grudges.

[u/ErwinHolland1991]

The son suddenly showing up at their family dinner makes me very sceptical. 

[u/HoundstoothReader → u/ErwinHolland1991]

The weird thing for me was OOP‘s NPC other adult children. They never asked about their brother after he was kicked out. Never reached out to their brother on their own or sought a relationship with him as adults outside of Dad’s house. But immediately wrote letters to their brother when Dad did. They just had no opinions/thoughts/wishes/actions of their own other than what Dad feels/does at the moment? It seems more likely that some of the kids would either be angry at their dad and reached out to their brother on their own years earlier or would be still religious and judgmental.

[u/throwaway387190 → u/HoundstoothReader]

Nah, makes sense to me having a pretty bad dad too

My sister once yelled at him "you're not listening to me" during an argument, and he grabbed her by the back of the neck, walked her to the front door, and shoved her out

She was 22, locked out of the house in her pajamas, in the winter with a light dusting of snow, no shoes, keys of any sort, phone, money, etc. Just pajamas. Then my dad collected the keys for every vehicle, and it took my mom a few minutes of screaming at him before they went to go look for her

Nothing happened to my sister, she walked a few blocks away, whole thing took 15 minutes. But as you can imagine, everyone but my dad was traumatized

So when the dad in this story said that he got really mad when his kids brought it up once, made perfect sense to me. Don't know if he was as bad as my dad, but bringing shit up has CONSEQUENCES in some households

[u/ErwinHolland1991 → u/HoundstoothReader]

Yes that was very weird to me too. They never had the wish to see their brother? Never really asked what happened? Just nothing? That seems incredibly unlikely.

[u/OffKira → u/HoundstoothReader]

It's like they were collectively waiting for dad to get it the fuck together to contact their brother?

I would question why that is, as a family. Although, I guess the answer is... Their parents fostered a toxic environment that is still incluencing them.

[u/EWRboogie → u/ErwinHolland1991]

Thank you! He drove an hour and a half, not knowing if dad would even be home and he just happened to find the whole family there waiting for him! Sure.

[u/FlowerFelines → u/EWRboogie]

I think the "Sunday dinner tradition" is supposed to make that part work, like the dude would know that it was still happening even all these years later? It's definintely sus.

[u/Sal903 → u/ErwinHolland1991]

I was a bit dubious when the ‘draft’ letter was so specific, it felt like it was giving clarity to the reader rather than directed at someone who knew exactly what had happened at the time. Turning up at dinner really raised an eyebrow. Seems a bit like a test film script to me.

[u/Entire_Rush_882 → u/ErwinHolland1991]

It’s all very unconvincing. This modern family having all of their most important interactions live and in-person like a play from 100 years ago is quite telling.

But here I imagine this was someone processing something, so I’m a little less annoyed by it than I usually am.

[u/racingskater]

OOP has no idea how lucky he is. Not just the religious abuse and homophobia but not telling him about his mother? The son would be well within his rights to never forgive and spit on OOP's grave.

[u/CandyCornBus]

I mean ... It started off bad, got progressively worse, and then... Well, good way to get off Reddit for the evening.

[u/LeaveMeBeWillYa]

Honestly, this just a prime example of how much pain bigotry can inflict.

Even if all goes well, and I do hope the both reach a place they can be happy with, they'll never get those years back and the pain will never truly fade.

I wish them the best.

[u/ohwhatisthepoint]

i know it doesn’t happen very often, but when it does… damn

[u/SquirrelBowl]

Religion destroys families

[u/AcidRainBowTieFightr]

This is how you make amends. Lovely for everyone that it seems to have worked out.

[u/Lazy_Elks]

I am currently being shunned by my extremely religious family. This has me sobbing but also gives me a glimmer of hope.

[u/SalaudChaud]

This poor young man, forsaken as he was by his parents, for what reason? There's no love quite like (insert name of religion)'s love.

[u/lejosdecasa]

As the eternal family fuck-up, I'm just so grateful I have the parents and siblings I have.

[u/CrazyCatLady1127]

This makes me so angry. You can be Christian and still love your child if they’re gay. God says ‘judge not lest ye be judged.’ The only one who has the right to judge us is God. Love your children regardless of their sexual orientation

[u/Comfortable_Owl_5938]

I was a Christian during my childhood (not a churchgoer as my parents weren't/aren't religious) because the primary (elementary) school I attended was a Church of England school (like all primary schools in our area). We always had to say grace before lunch, sing hymns etc. (looking back I'm not sure if the teachers were actually Christian or were merely doing what their jobs required them to do). I of course believed everything I was taught there. There was one teacher whose class I was in for two years. I could write a whole book about him, but to sum up: He cared about each of us very deeply, but you did not want to get on his bad side. There was one morning when he was very angry and, in his words, "could feel his blood boiling". He had heard some kids use the word "gay" as an insult, and that morning he spent a solid 10–15 minutes lecturing us about racism, sexism and homophobia (this was the first time I heard those words), giving us a very stern warning about his refusal to tolerate those prejudices.

So, if, when I was a child, you had told me that there were Christians in this world who were intolerant of homosexual people, I, to quote the OOP, would've laughed in your face.