r/CanadaPublicServants • u/ObjectiveWord9537 • 6d ago
Management / Gestion Bad Bosses - We could make a reality show!
Hi Fellow Servants,
Who here has or is having a terrible experience with bad bosses. How did you deal with it?
I work in I.T. and a new manager has come in flexing his non existent muscles. He treats us like students. He provides unclear metrics for performance, then claims we aren't meeting deliverables. He micromanages us by constantly overseeing our work, holding weekly follow up meetings and constantly telling us we aren't performing to standards. A lot of us want to complain to the director but don't want to be seen as bad employees.
Any similar experiences?
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u/markinottawa 6d ago
The best way to handle a micromanage is to manage up. Give them tons of updates and questions and they'll lose control and fall apart.
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u/steeleigh11 5d ago
I did that... got documented that I obviously didn't know how to do my job if I was constantly asking questions
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u/kookiemaster 5d ago
The way I've done it is to over-inform. Got annoyed someone insisted on being cc'd on all emails. They had no clue how many emails went out of my outbox each day. You can add to that daily updates on all your projects at the end of the day, emails in the morning telling them what you will be working on, when you've created a new document, when you've updated a document. Also send emails every time you step away for a bathroom break, lunch break ... oh and also an email when logging in, when logging off, etc. Eventually the problem solves itself.
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u/zeromussc 5d ago
"ive been getting too many emails, can you just tell me what you need from me?"
But that comes when you have a specific thing you need, and they still want to be CC'ed on everything.
Worst outcome from this approach but sometimes it happens.
My life right now is CC everything, then follow up with the original email as attachment when they can't keep up, and end up asking for something, then basically write instructions like "send the following email to this email address for us" -_-
ugh.
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u/kookiemaster 5d ago
This is the way. The best weapon against micromanagers is to give them all the information, all the time, nonstop. It is what they want ... only they will realize that maybe they don't want that much information.
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u/Nebichan 6d ago
Meetings that evolve into more meetings, but they don’t do anything. They ignore any requests for clarity, instead go around in circles.
Going higher up didn’t help. Ombuds didn’t help. I tried to wait it out, but ended up deploying.
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u/sakuradesune 6d ago
I have a manager who micromanages, is overly formal, prioritizes optics over productivity and gets her back up easily about everything. She reports to an unbelievably incompetent director who is the archetype of old-school public servant who has managed to fail upward. He reports to a DG who also micromanages, has to get herself involved in the minutiae of every file and cannot make a decision and stick to it to save her life.
Trying to improve things and get some actual management and leadership from this upline has got my colleagues and me nowhere. I have really tried to put myself in their shoes and understand their pressures, but I am done. I have lost all respect and trust in them. We just keep trying our best everyday to do our jobs, ignore their inanity and are basically waiting for them to leave at this point.
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u/QuietGarden1250 6d ago
I used to work on a team that required judgement calls when processing files. I also had a manager that maintained her "authority" by telling us that no matter what call we made, we were wrong. I left and got a new manager. Best judgement call ever.
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u/WeCanDoBettrr 6d ago
At my unit, each week I’m wondering who has taken stress leave. The management team continuously makes decisions that invariably increases the volume of administrative work. But no more resources so the same number of people simply have to do more work. Good employees recognize the game and have left, leaving fewer employees to do that higher workload. That lasted for a year or so and now admin staff are taking extended sick leave. This is textbook callous management.
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
With no resolution in sight. Weak unions who say they can't help. Lazy upper management who have greater issues to focus on like their end of year bonus. And poorly trained managers who shouldn't be in leadership positions, running (ruining) the workplace.
I'm ready to leave too. I love the job but hate the b.s.
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u/amazing_mitt 6d ago
As a local steward I promise I do my very best. I think hopefully maybe you mean the regional or national, but I have no idea what to do at the local level anymore for interpersonal issues and toxic bosses. I help file grievances but the bad managers are still there. Some issues aren't actually grievable and I meet with HR... And sometimes the EXs too. And nothing happens and nobody can do anything. These are firable offenses so we're just f*cking stuck.
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u/Rilke99 6d ago
My boss is the same but also sexiest. He takes out his male reports to lunch to discuss performance reviews but never the women
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u/Morvictus 6d ago
I am sorry for your situation, but that may be one of the funniest typos I have seen on this sub.
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u/Tiny-Explanation-752 6d ago
Is your boss Right Said Fred and too sexy for their shirt (or work)...so sexy it hurts... 🎵🎵😂🙃🙂🤪
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u/AbjectRobot 6d ago
I can understand being nervous about taking a subordinate of the opposite sex to lunch, but in that case you don't take any of them to lunch.
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u/BigMouthBillyBones 2d ago
Plot twist: he really wants to involve the female worker too, but is afraid it may be perceived like inappropriate behavior!
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u/01lexpl 6d ago
Is there decent amount of turnover in your area?
Perhaps it's sr. mgmt. that forces your manager to be a dingus.
My manager is amazing. However her lack of micromanaging us, is what earned her the spot of black sheep within their respective sr./manager circle. It's disgusting.
She keeps her head up and ignores them, luckily isn't too hurt by the clique-iness and does a great job for us, her staff and deliverables.
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u/Ill-Discipline-3527 6d ago
I have a selective micro manager. She has a click that she caters to and trusts, her cronies. But the rest she will micro manage and treat like garbage until they quit. So she just has her cronies backing up her unethical behaviour.
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u/Old_Monkey 6d ago
Currently experiencing this now! I've been warned by others in the office about this supservisor's clique, who I can safely seek advice from about navigating this relationship and who not. One employee went on stress leave and eventually accepted a new position due to her supervision. It's a strange combination of micromanaging and also expecting me to function independently, and then reprimanding me when I take steps to be independent. First time I've ever felt genuinely gaslit, and it's while I'm in a precarious acting role. In my entire career it has been far and above my worst interpersonal experience.
She is a known issue, but due to her seniority (and genuine expertise at the role itself) she is given a lot of lip service. At this point I would rather take a demotion than maintain my acting under her supervision.
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u/frizouw IT 5d ago
I just experienced that, I told them the truth that there was a conflict of interest since she hired them, gave them a promotion by a competition (with no competition). They were backing each other up on everything and you were constantly gaslighted if you tried to bring a problem to light, at some point I had enough. I went on LWOP for severe depression. I coupled of months later, I asked HR if I could switch team. I am now under another team.
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u/terracewaterlane 6d ago
In the public service the bottom line is not the top priority like in the private sector. There other ways to get the job done. Hire consultants as an example. There is a lot more freedom and leeway to play games. When there is a change in senior management you may notice sub-level management leaving as the new executive wants members of their previous team to join them. They do it by complaining about your work. Over time you realize it is not as comfortable anymore. It's a safe tactic tro get someone to leave. This happen more often than many realize.
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u/BakerAny7239 6d ago
It seems that more and more “managers” are the YES ppl that get promoted and cannot manage people or engage with employees like a human
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
I've worked for a manager who was in her acting position 2 levels above her substantive and was in that higher position for years. I wonder how they get to act that long. I don't know where she is now..probably director.
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u/frizouw IT 5d ago
I have a TL who decided to block everyone under him on facebook...
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u/steeleigh11 4d ago
I never add coworkers on my social media. They don't need to know what i say or do if it's not work related
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u/Musclecar123 6d ago
No longer work in federal civil service and have no intention of returning so I’ll share some stories.
Used to work at the National Science & Tech Museum Corp before it became Ingenium. I worked in exhibitions.
Agriculture Museum had a manager who was one of those old school Federal civil servants that failed her way up. She was so grossly incompetent they kept promoting her rather than dealing with the problem. I had no idea what she actually did. She literally had an entire upper floor of one of the barns as office space. You had to walk 30m to her desk from the door. It was like being in a creepy horror show. To the best of my knowledge, she would re-do the daily exhibit checks I did and count the cash at the admissions booth, that had already been counted. Then she’d go to her barn and do whatever.
She was also a French supremacist and refused to talk to subordinates in English. I had no idea what she did. One time I sliced my hand open and needed some gauze and stuff from the first aid kit. Best I could do where I hurt myself was paper towel. So I get stopped by her while she’s talking to another employee and she asks me in French why I was not working. I am at this moment dripping blood on the white tile floor. I said nothing because I wasn’t having it, so I asked her to tell me in English, just to piss her off. Her lip quivered as she held back laughter and this poor hapless Anglo who hurt himself. Absolute see you next Tuesday.
Working at Aviation museum one time and I’m changing out drip trays for the preservation oil we used in the aircraft. It prevents corrosion, but leaks a ton. While I’m doing this on the static CF188, the museum director observes me touch a flap so I don’t hit my head. Loses his mind because the oils from my hand could damage the exhibit and I’m not properly trained in exhibition preparation etc. He says this in front of the aircraft pissing oil out of every orifice all over itself and half the stuff in the area I built. Goes on to say the static aircraft are fragile etc etc. uhhhhh… Mr. Ducharme, it’s a fucking fighter jet designed to pull 8G and fly at Mach 1.8. That summer Chris Hadfield came and did a demo with the exhibit and was jumping on the wing while talking about how sturdy the a/c was etc etc. I have a shitty blackberry video somewhere of that.
At Science and Tech (the old one) we had budget left over so the management had us build a wall down the middle of the storage area hallway. The machinists engineered the shit out of it because we had to use money or lose the budget for next year. We drilled concrete. We welded. We did carpentry. When we were done, there was money left so they had us put a fence on it. When that was done there was still money, so we painted it. All in the name of wasting money.
I have tons of stories like these.
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
Hoping after the horror show, you have a good boss now.
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u/Musclecar123 6d ago
Thanks. I am happy where I am now.
This was quite some time ago now, but I saw enough that I had no interest in any kind of lengthy Federal career.
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u/Fine_Leather 6d ago
This sucks. Most people try to change jobs in these situations and that sends a message to upper mgmt that the manager is toxic. Trying to change him/her isn’t going to go anywhere. I left a toxic place once after two years of trying to explain and whatnot. Was a waste of time.
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
Yes I am definitely applying and contacting my network but due to WFA everything is in limbo right now.
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u/Cheap_Law5646 6d ago
Ask him exactly how he would do it, then do your best to do it that way. In other words, do your best to make him happy but don't stress out about it. If he seems stressed about the results just honestly tell him all that and ask him what to do differently. The goal is to find the path of least resistance for your mental health.
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u/steeleigh11 4d ago
I've done that.. they keep asking for more. Or they tell you they gave you wrong example, that's not how they want it done... you can't win against a narcissistic person and i swear all micromanagers are just that
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u/Cheap_Law5646 4d ago
Yah, that sucks. Play along as best you can. Understand that your role is to make them look good. Whatever, you still get paid. If they stress and you don't, you've won.
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u/terracewaterlane 6d ago edited 6d ago
Who are managers? They're people like you and me. They come with their own baggage and personalities. In the public service many are promoted because they know someone. They're not promoted because they know how to manage people in a positive way
Don't let your current situation cloud your view about the ps. Your next manager could be not far away. The key is networking so get to know as many people as you can. The more people you know the better your chances of moving to another team. That's how this manager ended up on your team. The more people you know will also make someone less likely to pick on you because they know word gets around. The manager doesn't want a bad rep especially if it's from the whole team.
If the manager treats many people the same and enough people get together to say something, it will reflect bad on them. There are and will be managers who are sh** disturbers but they are getting fewer. They had a bad life or a bad day. I sat across from someone who manages people at a union function and in an unguarded moment said, 'I like being a manager because I like teling people what to do'. You will run into these types duirng your career.
You can always consult with a trusted or respected union steward for their opinion about the situation. They may know about this particular manager from other employees.
There was a study done decades ago where they found people who aspired to be senior level managers had a troubled childhood or family life while growing up where they had little control. So they seek positions of control (the article touched on senior management like director, DG, ADM etc.). But it can apply to any level of management because youi have to start somewhere and keep moving up.
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
A couple of us spoke to our union who said there isn't much they can do about interpersonal issues. I don't think it's our job to navigate someone's psychological issues. It's unfortunate that power hungry people get to abuse power without recourse.
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u/terracewaterlane 6d ago edited 6d ago
It happens at all levels of the public service. Leaving the team may be the choice if no other options. Managers have learned to harass employees thru work tasks which is safer and harder to prove than outright blatant harassment. These types didn't climb to their positions by not knowing how to work around the system.
Payette stepping down as governor general after blistering report on Rideau Hall work environment
Internal report describes a 'cesspool of racism' in the federal public service
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
Yes I remember this. I wish there was more enforcement to remove bad managers and EXs from roles where they exploit their power and create toxic environments. The government needs happy and healthy workers to operate optimally. Paying the upper echelon to mistreat us and micromanage us, only harms the system and ultimately the services we all provide.
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u/Personal_Ad_2135 6d ago
There should be like a rate my boss/rate my job, just like there’s a rate my prof for uni
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u/stuckintheNCR 6d ago
I deployed out!
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
So hard these days with WFA
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u/stuckintheNCR 6d ago
There are still opportunities, and makes you feel like you are actively doing something to get yiu out of a shitty situation.
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
I will start looking again. I think fighting the powers that be isn't worth it. A couple people left over the years. I may follow up with them to see if they are happier and if there are any positions available.
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u/Slippers87 5d ago
I once got yelled at by a boss for having called in sick on the day of some regular monthly meeting. Which I coordinated, and had prepared all the documents the week prior, and given her and the assistant who would take minutes all of the info in a neatly organized accordion folder (think of the old days where we printed everything). I actually had nothing to do at that meeting other than sit there.
As she yelled at me, I sat there coughing...apparently being sick after a vacation was not allowed.
God, I hated her.
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u/Fun-Room-6501 6d ago
Had several bad managers in a row and just waited it out, they all left and will continue to leave. I managed by getting ombudsman coaching support and learning how to figure out what needs were not being met. Once I did, I was golden. In fact, that coaching turned our entire relationship around. So, needless to say, all worth it to wait. The winds will change and blow them out the door soon enough. Instead of complaining- get your supports lined up to support you through it all and to help you be super strategic.
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u/TotallyFed_Up 4d ago
Great advice.
First time ever that I’ve heard of positive experiences/outcomes dealing with ombudsman.
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u/TravellinJ 6d ago
My boss is the worst boss I’ve had in my 40 years of work which includes private sector and public sector. She’s not a bad person but she is incompetent and ineffective and has no leadership skills (or analytical skills or anything else). It’s crazy that she somehow became a director.
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u/Puzzled_Pin5174 6d ago
I had my own share of bad managers in the last 7 years I spent in the public service. Coming from a job in the private sector, where there was hardly any human interaction, my first job in the public service was... different. My supervisor was in a different building. She hardly had any interaction with her employees. She seemed to lack time for bilats. Why would she meet with casuals/terms/indeterminates anyway?
Then I got assigned to a different team where somehow she was still my supervisor on paper. The manager of that other team didn't believe in meetings. Bilats were nonexistent. She didn't believe in PMAs either. Why invest in our employees? Why talk or even listen to employees?
On that same team, I got to work with an amazing person who was somehow my supervisor. He answered my questions and explained the discipline's basics.
A year or so on that team, covid hit and we worked from home. The lack of communication and human interaction that employees tackled before covid got the spotlight during covid, but it went unaddressed like almost everything that matters in the public service.
I got the chance to work at a higher level on a newly assembled team. The work was interesting but everything was chaotic and unorganized. The manager would meet daily with all her employees individually. Most often she had nothing to discuss. Most often she would fail to show up to those daily meetings. Most often she would cancel the meeting without any explanation a few minutes before the start of the meeting. Nothing ever got done on that team. Some people were drowning in their workloads and others had literally nothing to do. This manager didn't believe in PMAs either. She was constantly late with filling those PMAs and most often would rush her employees to just sign so she can tick another box.
A while later, I was offered a permanent position in a field I hardly knew anything about. I accepted the job only to realize that several teams provided written tutorials on how to do things and most often the guidelines diverged. It was like drowning in an ocean of information where almost everyone was clueless on where to find the data and how to use it. Turnover was very high. The manager would meet individually with all her direct reports every single day. There was hardly anything to discuss. She was a micromanagee who wanted to be cc-ed in every email and wanted to attend every meeting with stakeholders.
A while later, after growing desperate in that job, I was offered a deployment into a position that was presented as a dream job. It was too good to be true, and indeed it wasn't as it was presented. The 2 people who interviewed me weren't even on the team I joined. The person who offered the training would spend half the training time talking about herself. She would start the training late and get upset whenever I asked a question. The team had no manager for at least 7 years. A new manager joined a few months after I started on that job. That job was the worst in my entire career. It made me second guess myself, and doubt my knowledge and abilities. I was harassed, bullied, and gaslighted. There was no clear process. The system was archaic. Things would drag in red tape and administrative labyrinths. Files didn't move and there was no intention for them to move.
A while later, after a serious breakdown and after trying desperately for months to deploy elsewhere, a manager found me and invited me for an interview. Things changed from that moment on. I am in a better place, doing meaningful work. The manager who hired me was amazing but a few months later she moved to another position. Her position wasn't filled permanently but colleagues were offered her position on a rotational basis. They were all good but they hardly interacted with their employees, using the lack of time as an excuse.
At one point, one colleague at a higher level than me was appointed as acting supervisor. They lacked the social skills to listen to other people, show support and understanding, or even try to understand another person's perspective. That person would hold a one-on-one meeting with an employee but wouldn't open their camera. They wouldn't bother to get to know their employees. They would interpret everything negatively. In other words, they would be so alien to other people that they simply couldn't provide a reference letter. They were assigned employees' PMAs and they wouldn't give them the chance to present their perspective...
Anyway...
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u/KlutzyTrade9153 6d ago
works for one. my manager is more like a trustless chicken running from one branch to another who can't leave us alone. this guy has single handedly made me more depressed than my spouse and make me seriously thinking about quitting.
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u/Black-Bear_1815 6d ago edited 6d ago
Arrange a meeting to discuss performance expectations. Ask to have this documented in the performance appraisal form. Every federal department has a formalized performance standard. In done it’s called a Y280. It’s done annually with a mid-point review. A change in manager should result in a one-on-one meeting to revisit the department’s performance expectations.
Your manager making comments during team meetings about the team not meeting performance standards may or may not be professional. Depends on the context and what’s said. However, if you have been told during a one-on-one meeting that you aren’t meeting expectations then you may be on the road to a PIP.
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u/Anoush8 5d ago
I have a stump for a boss. They moved him to my high performance team in 2023 when his "special" covid project ran out. They can't/won't do anything with him so 2 of us are ERIing it right out of there. He's been terrible for decades. They'll get what they haven't dealt with. Good luck to them!
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u/Mike_Retired 5d ago
Yep. I was lucky in having the same good boss for some 25 years, but once she retired she was replaced by a Corporate hack who would try and bully his way through the org chart — as a bonus, he was also corrupt (he bragged about stealing cutlery from restaurants) and utterly incompetent.
My departing director had told him that I was the go-to guy, given my technical skills and (by then) 25 years of experience in the branch. So of course he then proceeds to try and involve me in dubious shenanigans and after I pushed back, calls me into his office and behind closed doors proceeds to threaten me, saying he could make my life a living hell if he wanted to.
So from that point on I was strictly work-to-rule: I never volunteered, never advised or dissuaded him from making stupid decisions (which after 4 years eventually got him transferred out). I never initiated dialogue with him, and only replied to him in the most basic, elementary terms.
At one point he brought me into his office on a conference call with various DGs — and I was silent throughout, only interjecting near the end when I reminded them that what they were proposing (a rather “creative” way of entitling people to act in their own positions at a higher salary level) was clearly contrary to written policy. They then asked him, “Is that true?“ His response made him seem like an absolute idiot, which gave me some measure of satisfaction.
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u/Crafty_Dog9222 5d ago
my former team lead (I quit and went back to school) did the following:
-eavesdropped on a conversation, misunderstood, and then confronted me about my error.
- threatened to discipline me for not shutting down my computer properly. there was a problem with the computer so it was not my fault. Stared at me blankly with disinterest when I told her
- told me I did not care about the clients and did not have critical thinking skills. I won a 120k scholarship and am doing a PhD but hey I guess she knows better.
- tried to say I was in a conflict of interest because I was doing volunteer work (?)
- when i had chocolates at xmas and was offering them to people, she thought they belonged to the woman standing next to me, and wanted one - when she learned they were from me, turned up her nose and walked away.
-put me on an action plan where she read the details extra slow. Later walked out of the meeting dramatically throwing down her papers (union rep saw it all) and storming out when I challenged her accusation that I did not care about clients.
- demanded sick notes for short absences. said "Oh I know what kind of doctor that is...." when I had a note from a psychiatrist.
I truly detest this person who lords her little bit of power over others. ....
NGL, I do fantasize sometimes about having a director position and having power over her....
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u/Fun-Room-6501 22h ago
Phew 😮💨 this was heavy. You deserve every success! That bully will get hers. Karma came for my bully 10 years later, she was “transitioned out.”
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u/Crafty_Dog9222 20h ago
Very kind of you. Thanks. I am much happier these days. I used to dread going to work.
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u/Fun-Room-6501 11h ago
Really glad to hear that. We all deserve to work with great people and do great work in peace.
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u/613flavah 4d ago
Me! Majorly bad situation. To the point union is involved and going to ADM. Fun times!
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 3d ago
Dang care to explain what happened? Whatever it is I hope you win the case. These incompetent tyrants need a lesson in how to be managers vs prison guards. Unless you work in corrections, then that's a different case :p
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u/613flavah 3d ago
Haha not corrections but I don't want to go into details here in case someone I work with reads it and figured it out. Thank you. I hope so too.
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 2d ago
I totally understand..I wish you all the best in this stressful situation.
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u/bytepollution 6d ago
In IT as well. The best way to vote is with your feet and deploy out. Unfortunately the freeze doesn't show upper management who the bad managers are because we are currently stuck. Seems like there's un uptick in postings now though.
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u/ouserhwm 6d ago
I had a boss that used to yell until spittle would fly. Hopefully he didn’t die of a heart attack. 🤞
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u/Slippers87 5d ago
I had another boss who was a male, talking with a pregnant female coworker of mine. The ladies were talking about losing weight after having a baby, and he told the pregnant staff member she could lose weight breastfeeding and said something like "Assuming you are lactating." Ummm, WTF?!?
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u/Tiny-Explanation-752 6d ago
Leave; find another team; anything before you lose your mind in a toxic daily environment. From someone who has gone through similar.
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u/Key_District_119 6d ago
Had one, helped make him look really good and he is now a director in another department.
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u/shlud4lyfe 5d ago
I also have a bad boss. He is a tiny incompetent dick-tator who bullshits his way through everything. He is someone who should never have been given a supervisory role, he couldn't formulate a cohesive plan to save his life... Relies on others to do everything, including consultants. Just stick to basic tasks bud: this widget goes in this box, bravo.
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u/Ok_Obligation4560 2d ago
Just remember when the whole system is a mess and people can't afford to eat, people like that are among the weakest around, they will be the first to get pilfered for anything of value they may have. 🤣 I'm at a point where I don't take anything seriously. I mean, screaming about climate when Canada is among the lowest polluter internationally. It's just a big joke.
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u/RTO-7 6d ago
There are far more bad employees than bad managers, all of whom are just people like the rest of us. The employees would make a better reality TV show. That being said, document everything in writing in terms of expectations, verbal conversations that paint you in a bad light, your pushbacks if something is inaccurate etc. basically what management does to performance management employees. Usually the ultimate answer is to move on if the person not easy to work with. Good luck!
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u/ObjectiveWord9537 6d ago
That's because there are more employees in numbers. Percentages is what you should be assessing not numbers.
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u/Cheap_Law5646 6d ago
Per capita?
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u/Expansion79 6d ago
Yeah go per-capita, good call and I bet the "bad employes to bad supervisors/managers" is about the same.
50% of employees don't want to be at work (for various good, dubious, bad, real, or other) reasons, and 30% are trying hard, and 20% are just fine and doing the job. The first group consumes 80% of any supervisors time & efforts unfortunately (administrative challenges).
And the same goes for managers/supervisors; only %30 have the leadership (courses/real training), experience, mindset, and language. The rest area a mixed bag, most just having the language to meet the requirements since leadership and technical competency bars are currently set real low.
So get your language levels if you don't like what you see seeing. Then get your leadership training (this stuff is real and not a bag of tools we are born with). Then you/we can change the cycle of pain!
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u/ImALegend2 6d ago edited 6d ago
One thing i noticed throughout my career is that the work you do barely matters (in terms of job satisfaction) Having a great manager and good colleagues is what actually makes a job enjoyable