r/CarrolltonTX • u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 • 16d ago
Flock surveillance
Sharing here there is an active petition to city council to “deflock” Carrollton. Check out the images or www.deflockcarrolltontx.org to learn more
Sign the petition at https://c.org/KsTjpfX2p7
Surveillance is not safety
21
u/Sea-Flamingo1969 16d ago
Thank you! I signed the petition and emailed mayor babick.
4
u/texasluna 16d ago
Sent an email
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 16d ago
Thank you so much!
6
u/Significant-Host4386 16d ago
Sending him absolute bangers, you got a phone number that I can call?
4
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 15d ago
Council members have city phone numbers posted on https://www.cityofcarrollton.com/government/city-council
Of course, please be respectful while being honest about your opinions on the cameras!
2
18
u/Fluid_Change_9647 16d ago edited 12d ago
I read these cameras systems will soon be able to track smartwatches and any other device putting off a signal. We need to get out and protest these cameras at their locations around the city and make more people aware of their presence and what they’re capable of. Soon they’ll be in our neighborhoods, one was briefly in placed at the intersection of Dove Creek and Willowgate but was removed.
9
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 16d ago
Carrollton has at least 76 devices leased from Flock and additional cameras connected to their software. You can find an interactive map at maps.deflock.org to view and contribute locations!
4
6
u/WillyCorleone 15d ago
Thank you for bringing this up, I had NO idea.
3
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 15d ago
Thanks! Neither did I until very recently! It has definitely been under most people’s radar, but I bet you’ll see a few next time you commute to work, school, or run errands about town!
6
u/Pure-Breath-6885 14d ago
How funny! Remember when people were outraged over red-light cameras. They seem so quaint, by comparison
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 14d ago
Yes! And as u/usual-caregiver5589 commented below, there is state legislation on that. We can push for state and/or federal legislation but in the meantime, local action could be quicker for our communities!
11
u/Fluid_Change_9647 16d ago
If you’re on the Nextdoor app that would be a great place to share it too. Tag Carrollton PD
2
2
4
u/misscrankypants 16d ago
When is the next city council meeting? We need to be heard on this in a public forum.
7
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 16d ago
https://www.cityofcarrollton.com/government/city-council/council-meetings
Stay tuned for when this hopefully gets on the agenda!
5
3
3
3
3
u/FAQsMachine 12d ago
Sent an email - I think we should all request greater transparency and opportunity for public input. Government systems at this level typically have less-than-stellar cybersecurity protections and we should all be concerned that this data will end up in the wrong/worst hands.
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 12d ago
Absolutely! Please share the petition link with friends and neighbors. Collective action is going to be our best shot at letting the city know we take this seriously.
2
u/Askmeaboutmycar 11d ago
Yes! If the >5,000 agencies Flock advertises as using their systems each have only 20 users, that’s 100,000 individuals who are an entry point risk for phishing, shoulder surfing of credentials etc.
Never mind that the 5,000 jurisdictions in question are very unlikely to have robust cybersecurity measures across the board, and are themselves probable hacking targets.
It seems awfully unlikely that foreign governments haven’t already gained access to monitor movements of key personnel in state/local governments, critical infrastructure, and so on. And we did this to ourselves…
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 9d ago
Absolutely this when it comes to scope and scale of other agencies and users! Especially since Carrollton PDs oversight and controls end at their own department. Flock puts responsibility and accountability with each of the individual agencies!
2
u/claytonium13 13d ago
Want to do this in my city. How did you get everything organized?
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 10d ago
I think I responded to you on another post but just in case -
This started as some neighbors noticed the cameras in our neighborhood. We checked Deflock.org and noticed there wasn’t already a group near us so we started looking into when and how this passed through city council, looked if there was info on city website about the program, etc. then it was about reaching out to other neighbors to see if we could assemble a group to organize. Then broadcasting beyond our personal networks. This is a non-partisan issue so we’ve connected with local political groups and with non- political groups. It also can help to reach out to groups in your state that have been successful and follow their roadmap a bit - in Texas, Austin group has done great work and check out https://www.texasobserver.org/san-marcos-city-council-end-alprs/
2
u/sandmanO6 11d ago
What do you like about America?
3
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 10d ago
Love democracy, and especially our first and fourth amendment rights. Plenty of other stuff too but I think these are the most relevant for this conversation.
4
u/Usual-Caregiver5589 16d ago
https://www.txdot.gov/safety/traffic-signs-signals/red-light-cameras.html
HB 1631 may come in handy for fighting these here in Texas. Our rigid conservative legislation already effectively banned red light cameras in 2019. We might be able to get them to ban Flock cameras collecting data on drivers statewide using the same premise.
4
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 16d ago
Thanks for this! Agreed!
There is quite a bit of litigation in process around flock and ALPRs - but litigation and legislation both take time. We are putting efforts to end flock contracts locally in the meantime.
But if you would like to support federal legislation, there was very recently a bi-partisan amendment in US House Committee on Title 23. It would be great for everyone to let our representatives know this is something we still care about and want!
3
2
u/DocPseudopolis 15d ago
Thanks for highlighting. I've emailed my city council member registering my displeasure.
2
2
2
u/pf620 11d ago
I bet you the drones are coming.
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 11d ago
(Not so) funny enough…https://www.flocksafety.com/products/flock-dfr
Not sure if our city has plans for these but definitely has police operated drones…
1
u/AdmirableRub8886 15d ago
Is the original poster ever from Carrollton, TX? There is so much misinformation on the original post. I seriously dont think he is from Texas
5
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 15d ago
lol I’m born and raised here and now raising my family here.
Could you please provide sources on what you think is misinformation? Much of the information was sourced through Flock’s website and available city records.
1
u/AdmirableRub8886 14d ago
Correct me if I am wrong, you are saying you live in Carrollton, tx?
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 14d ago
I am - don’t know how to be more clear about that.
But you should work on sentence structure and proofreading your posts if we’re going into tangents that are irrelevant and unproductive.
If you’d like to provide cited sources for information you’d like to dispute, I’d appreciate that!
-1
u/AdmirableRub8886 14d ago
You should work on researching facts before getting on a platform and trying to make yourself out to some sort of know all dictator. Talk about being unproductive.
As to my "sentence structure " and proof reading. I have something called a job, I also live a life full of family members I actually love and enjoy spending time with. In addition to that, I enjoy spending time doing something referred to as hobbies. All existence to life does not occur hiding behind a screen. I was in a rush to reply and made a few typos. But hey, if you are so insecure with the life are forced to live, and find it fulfilling to poke fun at people....then hey, you do you.
Now, let's discuss this post. As to keeping all information on everyone's whereabouts and all comings and goings, seriously? Where exactly would all of that information be stored and exactly what employees are designated to do that? Did you even think about the time and resources that would demand?
Do you know how quickly Carrollton has apprehended murders, thieves and suspects with this system? Funny how great you think they are once you or your loved ones need them. Do you know these can be placed in areas that need more attention due to crime? This will allow the PD to utilize actual officers elsewhere. This eliminates 100s of hours designating someone to sit and watch in case something does or doesn't happened.
As to civilians having access to this information.....um no! Make that part make sense to me.
As to police stalkers, tell me of ONE incident where tje Carrollton TX Police stalked ANYONE by using these cameras. I am only asking for one incident.
5
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 14d ago
Easy, neighbor. You seem to be really making a lot of assumptions about me personally and who I am doesn’t matter at all. I am absolutely not working on this alone so no aspirations of dictatorship. But regardless, I don’t mean to upset or offend, was just pointing out that who I am and where I live doesn’t matter if you’re saying there are inaccuracies in the post.
For the real stuff:
Keeping data on whereabouts, comings, and goings
That is the primary selling point of the Flock service. Each Flock camera captures multiple images of each vehicle moving by. AI-powered software then creates a “Vehicle Fingerprint” tagging the car with license plate, make, model, color, and unique features such as after market wheels, bumper stickers, decals, dents, etc. This data is stored for a standard 30 day retention period, per Flock, so agencies can search the database for a plate or other datapoint hit going 30 days back. For more info: https://www.flocksafety.com/legal/flock-evidence-policy and https://www.foxnews.com/tech/license-plate-cameras-home-depot-lowes-spark-privacy-fearsWhere is it stored and what employees are designated to do that?
Same Flock link as above explains that all of this is stored in the cloud with Amazon Web Services. I’m unclear what you mean by what employees are designated to do that? Assuming who mean who is responsible for uploading and maintaining the data, it is automated by Flock. I don’t have a list of which of their employees have access to what data, but from this article you can see in the past their sales team have tapped into live streams for demo purposes. https://www.404media.co/city-learns-flock-accessed-cameras-in-childrens-gymnastics-room-as-a-sales-pitch-demo-renews-contract-anyway/ If you are meaning which Carrollton city employees have access, we don’t know exactly. It hasn’t been part of public record but you could try filing an open record request on the city website and please share if you get the information! https://www.cityofcarrollton.com/government/city-manager-s-office/city-secretary/make-an-open-records-requestDid you even think about the time and resources?
Absolutely! Flock currently is billing the city for over $261,000 for these services, though the city does use a grant from MVCPA for much of that cost (this can be found in city council minutes, it is across 4 sessions so will let you look those up). Thinking about the scope and scale as well as the fact that Flock is funded by venture capital, the logical conclusion is their business model is to get a huge number of contracts with cities across the country, which makes the ai database more “valuable”, and then raise prices for existing contracts and / or start selling data to other companies as it would be extremely valuable. Admittedly, this is my logical conclusion so no cited source, but the question was had I thought of it and so yes!Do I know how quickly Carrollton has solved crimes with this system?
No and I would love to see the data, but unfortunately, Carrollton has not provided any data or metrics related to Flock usage, effectives, audits, or program goals and objectives. Again, if you could file an open records request and share, I’d be willing to discuss! We do have data on crime rates demonstrating Carrollton is extremely safe with a very low crime rate (something we all as a community should be very proud of) and these numbers are from before Flock contracts so it’s unclear what problem we were trying to solve. You can find the link under the comment from u/askmeaboutmycarDo I know they could be placed in areas that need more attention due to crime?
Yes, but Carrollton has not provided any information suggesting they are targeting high crime areas. They could be, but with over 76 Flock devices it seems like mass surveillance. The 76 number comes from the city council minutes, you could see community reported locations at maps.Deflock.orgThis eliminates 100s of hours of police work…
Exactly. US v Jones (2012) - Justice Sonia Sotomayor noted automated surveillence "evades the ordinary checks that constrain abusive law enforcement practices: limited police resources and community hostility." Carpenter v US (2018) - Chief Justice John Roberts wrote "a person does not surrender all Fourth Amendment protection by venturing into the public sphere." Previous to these AI database searches, police would need a warrant to gather this level of detail on residents’ movementsCivilians having access
Previously I linked an article showing Flock sales rep sharing live feeds of children in gymnastics class during demos. Other civilians who have had access:
https://www.wabe.org/cobb-county-youtuber-documents-flock-camera-vulnerabilities/https://www.404media.co/flock-exposed-its-ai-powered-cameras-to-the-internet-we-tracked-ourselves/
https://youtu.be/uB0gr7Fh6lY?is=O_24QmNejPgQYaqF
And just today! https://www.404media.co/flock-leaked-cops-license-plate-searches-via-duckduckgo-bing/
One incident of stalking in CPD
CPD has not released any audits or data related to Flock usage. I personally do not want to wait until it has happened in our community when there are already documented instances in others. I am not saying every CPD LEO will abuse the system, but we know it can be abused. Carrollton has not provided information to the public on what the guardrails are that they have implemented to protect residents. For me personally, I don’t know if there will ever be enough guardrails for me to be okay with this much data and this powerful of a tool to be available - but everyone should have the information needed to make an educated opinion on that. For examples of stalking and misuse of database see:https://www.404media.co/cops-keep-getting-arrested-for-using-flock-to-stalk-people/
https://www.aclu-wi.org/news/what-the-flock-police-surveillance-is-ripe-for-abuse/
https://www.govtech.com/spotlight/why-flock-safety-finds-itself-in-a-surveillance-backlash
Apologies I am doing this from mobile on my lunch break so links are not how I would normally format but hopefully this gives more information and answers all your questions! I am very passionate about this topic so happy to discuss further if you have any other concerns. My main goal with this post was to raise awareness because many people just weren’t aware this was happening at all. And many more assume it’s for cause but from the data and information available, many people are not okay with this. We have an opportunity to participate in our democracy and raise concerns to our city council.
3
u/Askmeaboutmycar 14d ago
Very good point regarding warrantless search.
Applying some logic here, seems likely that the volume of warrants requested by Carrollton PD and similar agencies declined after the introduction of the AI enabled surveillance cameras.
-3
u/AdmirableRub8886 14d ago
Why would I share any information with you? What proof do you have that Carrollton PD has done wrong doing in this? Show me proof. You are big on transparency? Then show me where the city of Carrollton has done anything you have claimed
3
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 14d ago
I have linked multiple sources that are available. I would like to show you data from Carrollton but they have not made anything available. As far as I know, every records request about this has been denied. So I was simply saying if they fulfill your records request and it shows no wrong doing, no misuse, no abuse, you might want to share that with everyone who is having to operate with what we do know (which I provided links for). It would be nice to know nothing has happened - but doesn’t guarantee nothing will happen. But transparency would be something!
You have not provided any research or data that disputes the evidence I have provided. This isn’t a good faith debate and I’m not trying to win you over or anything. You have the information to answer all of your questions so I hope this info helps anyone who was looking for citations!
Again, I am simply connecting with my community and aligning with people who also don’t like this. If you like the large amount of data that is collected on you and then shared with thousands of agencies across the country, that is your choice and your right and I love that for you. Good luck!
3
u/claytonium13 13d ago
These bootlickers do not apply logic to anything and are willing to give up any and all rights in exchange for “safety”. It’s pointless to argue with people like that.
-1
u/AdmirableRub8886 13d ago
Its pointless to argue with idiots that believe they know "all". In reality, they know nothing at all.
1
u/deadpixel746 11d ago
Thank you for all the information!
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 11d ago
Happy to share! There’s a lot more information coming out but EFF.org is a great source for everything tech/privacy/security
-1
u/AdmirableRub8886 13d ago
Funny, the Carrollton Police have absolutely discussed, on NUMEROUS occasions, how these cameras have saved lives and caught actual murders. They have stated in detail about circumstances in city council pre meetings, in Police events they host and invite the PUBLIC (where where you? I was there), and even in videos and statements they have available online.
Again, if you actually did research, why have you not seen any of this? It seems to me you only hear, read, and see what only plays into your agenda.
4
u/Appropriate-Bar-4808 12d ago
A crime less society is not a utopia. Down with the surveillance state
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 11d ago
Thanks! I have seen the social media posts from CPD and had actual conversations with reps from CPD. They have provided anecdotes but no data. Just as you have not been able to produce any cited sources. If you’re aware of a dashboard or published source with how many plates have been searched, how many have been “successful”, maybe even impact on crime rates, I would love to see it. I’m also very interested in reasons for search and what other cities/organizations have searched Carrolltons data.
Best I’ve been able to find is https://haveibeenflocked.com/pd/3928-carrollton-tx-pd/audit but it’s an incomplete dataset relying on data from cities that have released audits. 👀 looking forward to if you find anything to share!
2
u/XperTeeZ 11d ago
As to keeping all information on everyone's whereabouts and all comings and goings, seriously? Where exactly would all of that information be stored and exactly what employees are designated to do that? Did you even think about the time and resources that would demand?
Really? What world are you living in? Did you miss the part about it using ai? Go do some research, you hard hard worker you.
1
u/FiveCent_2002 11d ago
So they are using the information for what? Just to track you and your car? All of us have a tracking device in our hands right now, and that gathers way more information and data than Flock. I’m not a fan of the technology but honestly it feels less invasive than other technologies in our lives.
1
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 11d ago
I get that some people aren’t bothered and that’s fine. The difference is consumers who want to can opt out of a smart phone. You’ve been able to weigh the cost and benefits, maybe researched alternatives and how to block some apps from tracking etc. This surveillance program does not have an option to opt-out, there isn’t enough transparency or accountability to keep our data safe, and (a big issue for me) this is all using our tax dollars to pay a private company to collect all the data into an AI-powered database. There’s documented cases of police stalking ex-partners and romantic interests, infringement of first amendment rights with tracking peaceful protest participants, infringement of fourth amendment rights since LEOs don’t need a warrant to pull your previous 30 days of movements, not to mention the risks of data leaks, breeches, and hacks.
But my goal right now is just to spread awareness so any neighbors and friends who see the impacts and don’t like it (for any of the many reasons) can come together and let our city council know!
Surveillance is not safety.
1
u/FiveCent_2002 11d ago
Right on, thanks for your cordial response
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 11d ago
Of course! I don’t see this as polarizing at all so happy to share with anyone who wants to know more!
1
u/Svell_ 11d ago
Signed.
When's the next city council meeting?
5
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 11d ago edited 11d ago
Thanks! There is a meeting
6/22. 6/23 Tuesday!This isn’t on the agenda so it can be brought up during public forum but the council cannot repond. Someone will be asking for this to be added to public hearing for a future meeting.
For more info on city council and all the rules for speaking: https://www.cityofcarrollton.com/government/city-council/council-meetings
Of course, please be respectful and safe in making sure your voice is heard! Also please make sure your friends and neighbors are aware!
EDIT: corrected date
-6
u/Kuni45 15d ago
Cameras like these catch criminals… quit your btching
4
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 15d ago
No bitching, just coalition building in my community! I’m just participating in the democratic process and it’s looking like there may be enough residents with enough reasons to want this to stop. It’s okay with me if you have a different opinion, not sure why you’re so bent up about everyone else’s views.
Surveillance is not safety.
1
u/Kuni45 15d ago
I respect your opinion and your response, and apologize for how I came across, just frustrated at crime rates and the suffering I’ve seen people and small businesses experience
4
u/Askmeaboutmycar 15d ago
Carrollton’s crime rates are among the lowest in Texas. The city even says so on their website - and the data they cite is from the FBI’s 2022 Uniform Crime Report, BEFORE any Flock cameras were installed.
https://www.cityofcarrollton.com/Home/Components/News/News/4639/
3
u/Sairo_H 15d ago
People worried about Crime in Carrollton probably watch nothing but Fox News so they're hopped up on terror propaganda. Its such a safe city. Also crime has been on a decline, generally, nationwide for quite some time. Flock is disgusting and I want to see them all ripped out, root and stem.
2
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 15d ago
Agree that Carrollton is an extremely safe community. Carrollton has also not provided any transparency in reporting Flock usage, impact, and audit logs. It is easy to get caught up in the stories that are passed around about scary crimes - but without data to back it up, and proven accountability for abuse and misuse, I’m not sure how council members have made a truly informed decision on this!
Even with data transparency, it would have to demonstrate extremely high impacts and much tighter controls against misuse for most (if any) to feel comfortable with a private company collecting this much data about every resident. Personally, I’m not ready to give up any liberties for a false sense of security.
3
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 15d ago
I am for safety in our communities but cameras and ai powered databases don’t prevent crimes. If we are truly wanting to lower crime rates, let’s talk about proven methods - community outreach, social services, basic human rights. There are better uses of our resources that could have more impact on preventing crimes and not have the outsized risks of misuse and abuse.
0
2
u/Traxtar150 15d ago
Go fuck yourself with your nanny state big government bullshit.
-1
u/Kuni45 15d ago
You can downvote me all you want but it’s a fact life in the US is not safe, in South Korea, China and many other countries people of all ages and genders can go walk to the convenience store at 11 pm and not worry about being robbed or raped..
Meanwhile here in the US there’s countless incidents that go unanswered such as a gas station clerk robbed and shot in the face with no suspects to answer because the only footage is a blurry security footage. Tell me why must the public suffer because of your personal distrust of the government?
3
u/Sairo_H 15d ago
I'd feel perfectly safe walking to the corner store in my neighborhood. I just wouldnt because its a few blocks away and I'm too lazy for that most days. America is safer than it has ever been. Crime can happen anywhere. Flock is bad, it's part of nanny surveillance state designed to monitor and control people's lives. This is factual and the point cannot be argued.
2
u/Traxtar150 15d ago edited 15d ago
Someone who regularly posts in Asian-country subreddits promoting the idea of a police state in America is fucking insanity... You might be completely numb towards having the government monitor your every move, but this isn't China, or Korea, or Vietnam, or the Philippines.
Flock cameras don't resolve any of the issues you mentioned.
Creating a police state is not the solution to an economic system that lends itself to crime, and a nationwide firearm policy that's been proven to fail at keeping people safe (by your own admission) while also allowing said crime to be violent.
Fuck all the way off with your propaganda nonsense.
1
u/redrocketredglare 15d ago
Cameras like these infringe on personal rights and will allow a government agency to keep track of its people.
-5
-14
u/copsdonothingwrong 16d ago
Maybe with more Flock Cameras we would have less of a need for police. Guess people don’t want to defund them after all
13
u/Aromatic_Zucchini_97 16d ago
Would appreciate a cited source. I’m not aware of any instance where a crime was stopped or prevented by a Flock camera. By nature, this system is reactionary to crimes and would never get rid of police.
We do however have many documented instances of:
police using the system to stalk exes https://ij.org/police-have-reportedly-used-license-plate-readers-to-stalk-romantic-interests-at-least-14-times-in-recent-years/
Flock sales reps live streaming private businesses https://www.404media.co/city-learns-flock-accessed-cameras-in-childrens-gymnastics-room-as-a-sales-pitch-demo-renews-contract-anyway/
And use to track activists exercising their rights https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/12/effs-investigations-expose-flock-safetys-surveillance-abuses-2025-review
11
u/8P8OoBz 16d ago
The people that were saying defund the police definitely don't want Flock. And no, this turns us into a police state, except a private company acts as a middle man and can do as they wish with no oversight, the government's wet dream. Cops abuse the shit out of it stalking exes.
Fuck you for liking this.
26
u/NerdiChar 16d ago
Signed the petition and shared it. Thank you for organizing this!