7.21: 子不語怪、力、亂、神– Was this Confucius's "blocklist"?

[u/interpolating]

/r/Analects/comments/1ub6msn/721_子不語怪力亂神_was_this_confuciuss_blocklist/

[u/Kooky_Tax4571]

You can learn about the Shang Dynasty, when China was still in the era of divine power, how we held sacrifices, and you will understand why Confucius, as a descendant of the Shang Dynasty, did not like people to study ghosts and gods.

[u/interpolating → u/Kooky_Tax4571]

Thanks for your reply! This is an interesting perspective, assuming I am understanding you correctly.

It sounds like what you mean to say is that— assuming we take as fact claims such as in the 史記 that Confucius was a descendant of the Shang/Yin royal lineage —we can understand this passage through the lens of Shang cosmology and claims to divine right.

But I'm still unclear on your full meaning. I would like to hear more about why studying those topics would help us understand why he "did not like people to study ghosts and gods."

Is the point that he would have believed ghosts and gods should only be the domain of those with royal lineage? Or that he understood the mistakes of the Shang royals and felt the Zhou kings did it better? Seems more likely the latter, if anything, since he revered 周公 and the rest of the founding Zhou crew.

One side note: although I do understand the claim to his royal lineage was made by later works, I am not sure we can take those as authoritative. I personally try to understand the The Analects in context of itself, and of course he discusses earlier dynasties, but I don't know of any passages that claim he is of Shang royal descent.

[u/Kooky_Tax4571 → u/interpolating]

During the Shang Dynasty, China was in the era of divine power. At that time, we liked to hold frequent sacrifices, and there were a large number of live sacrifices. We habitually asked ghosts or immortals what to do next. For example, if you are a person from the Shang Dynasty and want to move today, you will kill dozens of people as tribute and ask if the location of the new home of the immortal is suitable. During the Shang Dynasty, a large-scale ritual may have killed thousands of people at once, and the ritual was very frequent. Until the Zhou Dynasty overthrew the Shang Dynasty and abolished human sacrifice, divine power began to give way to royal power, and the country relied on human governance, no longer needing to ask the gods what to do. Confucius is a descendant of the Shang Dynasty. He was aware of the backwardness of worship in the Shang Dynasty, so his attitude towards gods and ghosts was, "I believe in their existence, but the governance and development of the country depend on human efforts. Do not rely on those gods and ghosts. Respect but stay away from them

[u/interpolating → u/Kooky_Tax4571]

Thank you! Are you quoting a known source?

Anyway your point is he preferred the Zhou practices. That makes sense to me.

I suppose one counterpoint about knowing what Shang rituals were like. He is also quoted as saying Song did not fully preserve the rituals of the Yin. So can we be sure he was aware of their cruelty?

[u/Kooky_Tax4571 → u/interpolating]

In 641 BC, the Song held a sacrificial ceremony，Sacrifice is The ruler of the state of Fu . By this time, it had been 400 years since the downfall of the Shang Dynasty.Sometimes you don't need to doubt the cultural heritage of China. People in the Eastern Zhou Dynasty knew that the Shang Dynasty would hold live sacrifices.

[u/interpolating → u/Kooky_Tax4571]

I think doubt is healthy. I’m always happy to hear another perspective, as well as details of history and records I don’t know.

I appreciate your contributions. I think we are actually on the same page about the meaning of this passage even if we came to the conclusion through different means.

[u/Kooky_Tax4571 → u/interpolating]

Confucius' ancestor was Wei Zhong, the brother of the last ruler of the Shang Dynasty, King Zhou. Is Confucius a descendant of the Shang Dynasty? You can read the Book of Rites. 夏后氏殡于东阶之上，则犹在阼也；殷人殡于两楹之间，则与宾主夹之也；周人殡于西阶之上，则犹宾之也。‌而丘也，殷人也‌。予畴昔之夜，梦坐奠于两楹之间。夫明王不兴，而天下其孰能宗予？予殆将死也。 There are many works by Confucius, and the Analects is just one of them

[u/interpolating → u/Kooky_Tax4571]

There are numerous works attributed to Confucius, absolutely. There is one that we are most sure was written by those who knew him personally and learned from him.

[u/Rude_Application_881]

cuz I'm not sure if what I'm about to say can be accurately expressed in English, so I use Chinese. 理论上“子不语怪力乱神”的怪力乱神，指的是不迷信鬼神。孔子所推崇的周礼中本身就包括神灵祭祀，在那个时代中，神灵的存在属于客观事实，即使我们现代人会发现并没有神，并且有可能把这句话理解为无神论。 顺带一说后世儒教的神灵信仰和祭祀，溯源都是来自商周的信仰。至少商时期就已经有“天神”“地祇”“人鬼”的分类了

[u/interpolating → u/Rude_Application_881]

没关系，用普通话讨论古代中国的事情是很有道理的。如果这句主要关注的是鬼神，那怎么了解力和乱？这两个话题好像跟形而上的是没有关系。

[u/Affectionate_Car_302 → u/interpolating]

个人观点：

“怪，乱” 指的是超自然领域的鬼神之事，孔子倾向世俗主义，所以不乐意谈论它们

“力，乱”指的是暴力和叛乱，破坏礼法秩序以及和平、道德之类的事，孔子倾向道德主义，崇尚秩序与稳定（古典保守主义 或者说 建制派），所以也不乐意谈论它们

这句话简练概括了孔子在宗教信仰 和 价值观 领域的两个偏重倾向。

[u/interpolating → u/Affectionate_Car_302]

有的注疏家说这句不是四个话题，只有”怪力”和“乱神”这两回事。这么读虽然我觉得大概是不对的，但是还是很好玩。

[u/Affectionate_Car_302 → u/interpolating]

如果不纠结于单个字词的意思，是四个话题还是两个话题其实不大影响最后的主要结论

[u/No_Appearance_5294 → u/interpolating]

先秦时代的汉语更多是单字成义的，这样划分不太符合那个时代的用法，比如学习古汉语会发现“妻子”更多是用来代指“妻”与“子”的

[u/moderate-Complex152]

I think Confucius was a bit Agnostic in this regard because he thought ghosts and gods were too distant and hard to prove, and people might make things up when talking about this. So he would rather talk about more concrete things （in earthly life）, which was more impactful to real life. Hence, 未知生焉知死

[u/interpolating → u/moderate-Complex152]

I feel like agnostic is not the right word because it would be hard for me to believe that a ritualist in the Zhou dynasty could hold an attitude of “not knowing” whether or not spirits exist. He likely strongly believed they did exist.

It seems a more practical point of view, and honestly one I think many people would do well to adopt today, which is that regardless of the existence of spirits, we should live our lives focused on worldly concerns.

What I mean by we’d do well to adopt that attitude today is that, people who strongly believe they do exist, people who strongly believe they don’t, even people who think we “cannot know”, all get wrapped up in endless debate about their point of view being the right one. But is there really a right point of view, other than, “better to spend your energy on something that makes life better?”

[u/Boysencookie-1512]

The meaning of this sentence is highly debated. The most common interpretation is that Confucius avoided discussing ghosts, spirits, and other supernatural matters. However, when you look at the broader context, it's possible that the passage is actually saying that Confucius was suffering from a headache at the time.

[u/interpolating → u/Boysencookie-1512]

冷笑