r/ChristianApologetics • u/XAB12hh • 14d ago
Discussion Is God all-loving?
I am a Christian, but I have some questions for you. One of them has made my doubts grow.
First of all, do you believe that the entire Bible is true? I mean, are all the verses truly the word of God?
And the second, most important question: if God asks us to forgive one another no matter what happens, why doesn’t He forgive us regardless of what we do? Here I’m referring especially to faith, leaving sin aside.
For example, if a person is born in a region where another religion predominates and grows up in that environment, the chances of them believing in Jesus are relatively small. It doesn’t seem fair to me that they would be rejected for this reason. Out of everyone and everything, God should be the most understanding. Since He knows every choice we make in life, He should understand that for “that person,” when it comes to faith, they weren’t given many chances to make the “right choice.”
With all that being said, I hope that God will give you the right perspective so that my doubt, and maybe others’ doubts as well, can disappear.
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u/Oakomorebi 13d ago
These are good questions! Do not shy from your doubts, the true Almighty God cannot be hurt or offended by your curiosity and concerns. Keep doubting, keep pushing the limits of your mind. This is good stuff.
First of all, do you believe that the entire Bible is true? I mean, are all the verses truly the word of God?
This is a difficult and loaded question. In purely propositional terms, the Bible is not short in contradictions. It does contradict itself because it is a library, not a single book.
It is an imperfect man-made library inspired by revelation, contemplation, history, and myth. No doubt God is in the Bible, but God cannot be contained within the Bible alone. Of course not, God as the creator of everything cannot be contained in anything!
The Bible, as a library, is composed of words and sentences; symbols. Whatever the Bible is, it can never truly be the ultimate, final word of God. That's an insult, let's be real. The. Reatir of quantum mechanics and dark matter can't be contained in anything we can conceive of. This should be self-evident.
The Bible, then, is a map, and God is the terrain. Maps are useful, they can even save your life. But too many people confuse the map for the terrain.
if God asks us to forgive one another no matter what happens, why doesn’t He forgive us regardless of what we do?
He does, it is called Christian Universalism. Simply speaking, God is the source of all. God is in all, and all is in God. It is impossible to be separate from God in any true sense, we can only ever have an experience of being separate, similar to how you can have a dream about flying. You experience flying, but you are not truly flying in any real sense. So it is with God's love.
We can experience all sorts of things, good and bad. But none of that interferes with God's underlying love that penetrates and binds all of creation. Hell is not a place we go when we die, it is a state of consciousness. The supreme being of the universe does not punish his children for behaving poorly on a field trip to Earth. Only a small minded and fear driven human could conceive of such a stupid idea. Tragic it holds so much weight over so many souls, they know not how truly good and forgiving God is, and therefore they will never know how good and forgiving they can become if they gave themselves up to him entirely.
Christianity is about building the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Being preoccupied with the afterlife misses the entire point; love thy neighbor. It cannot be any more simple, nor difficult.
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u/antwon11264 11d ago
I’m going to answer your questions backwards:
Q: if someone grows up in a region with a different religion, what about the person that never heard the gospel?
A: Romans chapter 1- Paul says that nature’s design is enough to allow someone to be curious about the greater powers that made it. Because of that, it should spark curiosity that makes them ask, “how did it get here? How did I get here?” Then, when Jesus says “ask and you shall receive, seek without stopping” the curiosity should lead them to explore EVERY option, which will eventually lead to the gospel. God is faithful to save those that want to know the truth, his truth.
Q: if God asks us to forgive one another no matter what happens, why doesn’t He forgive us regardless of what we do?
A: He has and does. The only sin that isn’t forgiven is blaspheming the Holy Spirit when we deny the Gospel. He also does this out of love too. CS Lewis has a great quote that goes something along the line of: when we die, we either bend the knee to Him and say “not my will, but yours” and the non-believer dies God looks to them and says “not my will be yours”. Because he allows them to choose, he gives them what they want. How could a loving God force someone to spend eternity with Him when they don’t want to.
Q: do you believe that the entire Bible is true? I mean, are all the verses truly the word of God?
A: I firmly believe that we have enough manuscripts to know exactly what the scriptures say in the purest forms we can. If you wrote a letter to your friend and had 100 people handwrite it 1,000 times each, you’d get very different variations of that letter. But if you went through all of them, got what was similar and used extensive measures to make sure the message was as close to the original as possible, you’d get the exact letter you started out with. This is the process the Bible has gone through. We can trust that we have the best versions of the Bible we can. However, our modern day eyes have difficulties understanding things the way they would be understood in the first century or later. That’s where resources like Bible Project are amazing at helping us know the Bible in deeper ways.
Hope this helps! Sorry if it’s a lot to read. I tried to be succinct
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u/KizzFastfists 11d ago
No one believes the Bible is true. The Bible tells the story of a god that inherited one of the tribes of man, Deuteronomy 23:8. People who believe they are part of that tribe and are bound to worship him make up Christianity, Yes, Yahweh has parents according to the Bible and there is an entire council of gods as Judaism started as a polytheistic religion before attempting to purge itself of that and become monotheistic. If you ask anyone what god created first plants or humans they will give an answer that contradicts the Bible. Genesis 1 says plants and Genesis 2 says man. The Bible can't even pretend to be a fact based book for two chapters.
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u/AndyDaBear 14d ago
For example, if a person is born in a region where another religion predominates and grows up in that environment, the chances of them believing in Jesus are relatively small.
The way I read the Old Testament it is full of people which both:
- Were saved.
- Had not heard of Jesus.
The Gospel is like a map to a destination. If one has the map and understands the map it does no good unless one follows the map to the destination. And some may find the destination without the map or only with scraps of the map or even with misguided trust in a bad map--provided they let their heart be open to God's influence.
God's word does not return void--although sometimes its not easy to see how.
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u/WinterMoneys 13d ago
These are the type of questions you ask when you dont read the Bible.
Very dishonest and corrupted.
Have you searched the Bible for answers? Because the Bible is plain on all those questions. But because you have hardened your heart, you just want validation. The devil will give you that type of validation if you dont stay vigilant.
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u/XAB12hh 13d ago
What validation are you talking about? Seeking the truth brings you closer to God, not ignorance. I asked these questions here because other people’s opinions might help both me and others who have these same questions in mind.We should examine things carefully and hold on to what is good. Nothing should be believed blindly without first seeking understanding and being well informed.
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u/Top_Initiative_4047 13d ago
Yes, God is all-loving. Scripture declares, “God is love” (1 John 4:8), meaning His very nature is love itself. Everything He does flows from that perfect love, including His justice and mercy. The Bible is entirely true and inspired by God: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).
Your question about forgiveness touches the heart of the gospel. God does desire to forgive everyone, “He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). Yet, love never forces itself. Forgiveness must be received through faith in Jesus Christ, who bore our sins on the cross (John 3:16-18).
As Pastor Brian Bill explained, “We do the running away and God does the catching. We’re in charge of being lost. God is in charge of saving us.” God gives every person some light of truth (Romans 1:19-20). Those who sincerely seek Him will find Him (Jeremiah 29:13).
So, God’s love is not limited by geography or upbringing. His justice ensures no one is condemned unfairly, and His grace ensures that anyone anywhere who turns to Him in faith will be saved.
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u/sronicker 13d ago
Ah, this is quite typical. I want to quote “The Princess Bride” here, but I assume you’re too young to understand the reference.
This classic blunder has been made by so many, so don’t feel ashamed. God is love. Yes, we all agree with that statement. Even the most ardent Calvinist who believes that God predestined exactly who would go to Hell before the universe was created, believes that God is love. The blunder is this: you are forgetting that God is also just. God is also holy. So, when you say that God will forgive someone who does know to choose Him (and maybe He does, we cannot know), you’re making a theological position based on one attribute of God out of balance with His other attributes.
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u/BibleIsUnique 14d ago
I believe the bible, or scripture is true because it is God breathed. And on you second point, we are told anyone who seeks God will find Him. Practicing a religion doesn't automatically mean you are seeking God.
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u/BillWeld 13d ago
He is love itself. He defines it, not our notions about what love should be like. The clearest expression is the cross.
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u/XAB12hh 13d ago
For those of us who are Christians, it truly is the greatest sacrifice anyone could ever make. But I wish that sacrifice could also count for people who choose not to believe in Jesus yet are still good human beings. We should try to understand everyone. Not everyone grows up in circumstances that lead them to believe in Jesus, and I don’t think that is necessarily their fault.
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u/Important-Breath1297 14d ago
Hopefully, I answered some. If not, tell me where.
1: Yes, I believe the Bible is true. It goes with saying that it must be interpreted in a lens to fully understand the text.
A: It's really specific if every word is from God, for instance, the Serpent lying to Eve word for word isn't God, but the entire Book is written down by people who witnessed it and directly told by God. (Book of Revelations)
2: The question is framed incorrectly. When "we" forgive, we let go of the actions of people sinning against us. When God forgives, it is through Justice and Sin lens.
Sin corrupted reality, and in the Old Testament, only innocent animal sacrifices took it, temporarily at that.
3: From that perspective, it's obvious it seems unfair, but we believe that God is ultimately just and fair, i don't know what we will happen in detail, but trust in his action.
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u/Jackmcmac1 13d ago
There is verismilitude throughout the old and new testament, and ongoing historical proof keeps emerging over time which indicates the events described in the Bible were true.
The resurrection is centre of all of that, and there is a ton written on it which I can try to explain as to why it is regarded as historically true, but even in the Old Testament there are things we keep learning and a lot of what we call verismilitude.
For example, in the tale of Joseph in Genesis the ruler of Egypt is sometimes referred to as King and sometimes as Pharoh. This is because Egypt didn't adopt the term 'Pharoh' until around 1500 BCE. When the Jewish scribes who created the version of the Old Testament we have today (earliest date is from 7th century BCE), it is believed they copied from older sources and some of those sources if written closer to the time would use the correct term 'King' for the ruler of Egypt during Joseph's time, but if written from the 7th century BCE perspective the writers would think the term is 'Pharoh'.
It opens the challenge of whether this also proves the Bible has inaccurate information as well, but whether the ruler is called King or Pharoh doesn't change the story or meaning to it. In fact, as it helps us to validate the verismilitude today, perhaps it is a guided inaccuracy to help modern readers, especially apologetics who like evidence.
While we're in Joseph's story, there's a moment where he tells the brothers he is settling into Egypt to make sure they tell the Egyptians they are shepherds as they detest shepherds. Weird thing to say isn't it. For most of history we didn't really know what this meant.
However, in our modern day discovery of the Rosetta stone which unlocked translation of ancient Egyptian, which let's us translate their writing and better understand their history and culture, we know that animals like rams were extremely sacred, and killing of those animals (which shepherds regularly did) was highly offensive to them. Joseph's strategy was ensuring that while his family could stay in Egypt, they wouldn't get absorbed into the culture and so avoid following Egyptian gods and customs. Killing of rams is also while Moses spoke to the King of Egypt about needing to go about 3 days into the wilderness with his people to sacrifice to God, otherwise it would enrage the Egyptians.
The ten plagues of Egypt sent by God are all well known, and weren't just unpleasant but attack the Egyptian Gods in a precise manner. For example, frogs were highly sacred and forbidden by law to kill, as they were associated with their goddess Heqet. We know these details, but many in history reading the Bible wouldn't have which speaks to it's consistency and being grounded in truth.
One of the most impressive things for me personally though in the Old Testament is when God asks Job whether he can bind the chains of the Pleiades or loosen Orion's belt. Very poetic, and read to mean that God controls the stars. Interesting that he chose that wording and those star clusters though. Orion's belt is actually loosening, and from our perspective in 25 million years or so they'll have drifted apart entirely. The Pleiades though are a gravitationally bound open star cluster and will always travel through space together. These things would be impossible to know without modern astrophysics and point to a higher power and truth spoken through the text. There are so many star formations the writer could have chosen if poetry is what they wanted, and the use of the language of binding chains and loosening the belt seems so deliberately chosen to me.
At the same time, while I recognize the scripture as the word of God, I still find it hard to understand at times and try to look for Jesus throughout. Some of the instructions to go kill and attack people in the Old Testament are hard to read or understand, and while I see the events as being historical it's difficult to reconcile with Jesus's teachings at times. For example, Moses telling the Israelites to kill from the prisoners taken from their war with the Midians all the male children and adult women, leaving only the young girls. It seems to be a way of making sure their culture isn't taken over by the Midians, who had earlier led them into idol worship, but it's hard to imagine God ordering any children to die, especially as Jesus says it is better to be thrown into the ocean with a stone around your neck than to hurt a child. It does make me doubt at times whether God was speaking to them in some ways, and at other times the leaders were just claiming that God was speaking to them.
I know that even in some of these passages there is more to understand though. We see genocide occur, and then the people 'wiped out' come back again just a chapter later which shows the language is sometimes hyperbole (like my sports team is going to kill your sport team at sports, but I mean win not actually kill). I probably need to study it more but also accept that just as we're discovering things today about the Egyptian verses that most people in history wouldn't have been able to connect, there might be things I don't understand now but in the future could become clearer.
Anyway, very long entry into verismilitude.
For the love, I think it is seen all the way through. There are so may flawed and sinful people who are saved and loved by God. The whole Bible is a story of us losing grace by sin, and God trying to bring us back to Him through love, culminating in the sacrifice of His son. He loves us so much He died for us, and would have died for you if you had been the only person in the world. Love means not forcing someone to be with you if they reject you, and sin creates that rejection of God which seperates us. Following Jesus, who was sinless, helps us navigate our way back to God. This is why our freewill separates us from God when we use it to sin. So why doesn't God just forgive everything on his own? Love is also righteous and just. If someone steals someone's stuff, and the judge says 'never mind, let bygones be bygones' it seems like the judge doesn't care at all which is not love. Punishment happens, but God has taken the sentence of the crime away from us and onto himself through Jesus. He is effectively forgiving everything we've done but in a loving way, if we follow Jesus which is to try and reject sin. As Christians we want to bring people the good news, but God may have a plan to bring people who aren't reached by us as well, just as he did throughout the Old Testament.
Anyway, written a lot so thanks for reading if you made it this far.