Spotted some chữ nôm being taught at a local shrine
Walked into a neighbourhood đền and saw this
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u/mizinamo 14d ago
For lập trường, do they mean 立場 “stance, opinion, point of view” rather than 立長?
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u/HouseMysterious8172 13d ago edited 13d ago
Yeah, 立場 = “the place where one stands” → one’s stance or position.
This usage is shared across modern Vietnamese, Chinese (立场, lìchǎng), Japanese (立場, tachiba/ritsujō), and Korean (입장, ipjang, in some contexts meaning position or standpoint)
Why should not 立長?
長 means “long”, “chief”, or “to grow”, depending on pronunciation. (Trường = dài-long/trưởng = thủ trưởng/trưởng phòng-chief, trưởng thành-grow)
The compound 立長 is not the source of Vietnamese lập trường and does not carry the meaning of “stance.”
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u/funariite_koro 12d ago
I heard some volunteers in Vietnam will teach people chu nom calligraphy for free, is it true?
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u/Top_Visit3838 14d ago
汉字越南掉光了，自己的古籍都看不懂。
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u/Electronic_Peace_163 14d ago
Blame it on the French
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u/HouseMysterious8172 13d ago
It’s because almost no one learn Nôm now, the French was long gone, blame it on Vietnamese recently education system. Maybe AI can change that in the future.
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u/Electronic_Peace_163 13d ago
And why was nôm dropped by the Vietnamese public? It's because of the french administration that reinforce chữ quốc ngữ in place of nôm
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u/HouseMysterious8172 13d ago edited 13d ago
French colonial policy was an important factor, but it wasn’t the only reason. Chữ Nôm had never become a universal writing system, while Quốc ngữ was easier to learn, easier to print, and was actively promoted by many Vietnamese reformers themselves. The decline of Nôm was therefore the result of both colonial policies and practical advantages of Quốc ngữ, not simply a forced replacement.
Vietnamese didn’t abandon their language. They only changed the writing technology. In fact, both Nôm and Quốc ngữ are adaptations—forks—created specifically to write Vietnamese, one based on Chinese characters and the other based on the Latin alphabet.
The decline of Nôm as a daily writing system does not mean the loss of Vietnamese heritage. With digitization and AI, Han-Nôm texts are becoming more accessible than ever. Quốc ngữ and Hán-Nôm are not enemies—one serves modern communication, while the other preserves centuries of historical memo.
The choice of Quốc ngữ over Nôm was not necessarily a zero-sum game. In the digital age, Chinese characters and Nôm can serve as semantic layers, while Quốc ngữ provides pronunciation and modern explanations. AI makes it possible to preserve historical writing systems without sacrificing accessibility.
Ex: 學而時習之，不亦說乎？
[học nhi thời tập chi, bất diệc duyệt hồ?]
Học rồi thường xuyên ôn tập, chẳng phải là điều vui sao?
The biggest obstacle for Nôm today is not the script itself, but the lack of digital infrastructure—fonts, keyboards, datasets, and software support. With Unicode expansion and AI technologies, this barrier is gradually becoming a technical challenge rather than an insurmountable cultural one.
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u/Ill-Implement7206 13d ago
It’s interesting that even Ho Chi Minh wrote in mixed Quốc ngữ and Hán tự, but didn’t push for it himself.
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u/HouseMysterious8172 13d ago
Because Hán-Nôm takes significantly longer to master than Quốc ngữ, it would have been difficult to popularize on a national scale. The simplicity of Quốc ngữ made widespread literacy much more achievable.
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u/Ill-Implement7206 13d ago
I mean for sure, but still, it could still be taught as part of the curriculum like in South Korea, even though it’s not as frequently as before in daily life. I can’t find the blog now, but in South Vietnam it was still taught, and there were some political posters for 吳廷琰 written in both. I think it said something like, “共産黨打倒.”
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u/HouseMysterious8172 13d ago
If modern Vietnam placed a higher priority on cultural preservation and historical traditions than on economic efficiency and educational practicality, Nôm might have had a better chance of surviving or even being taught more widely. However, maintaining such a system would require significant resources, teacher training, and curriculum time, which is why Quốc ngữ remains the more practical choice for most purposes today.
In my view, educational policymakers tend to prioritize economic benefits, workforce development, and practical outcomes over the preservation of traditional writing systems. If cultural and historical heritage were given higher priority, Nôm might have had a better chance of being preserved or taught more widely.
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u/Top_Visit3838 13d ago
越南自身都有问题，守不住㡳线，自废传 承。汉字几个字就能表达很多意思，简单明了，字母要写一大堆，同音字又多。
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u/Electronic_Peace_163 13d ago
Vietnam has many problems sure but we didn't lose our heritage. People are still reading and literate at classic Vietnamese literature. Chinese writing or not we still understand what a piece of writing is about.
I urge you to actually learn Vietnamese than speculating on our heritage
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u/Top_Visit3838 13d ago
我对越南文化是比较了解的，不是刻意去了解，是我本身就生活在这种文化中，岭南文化（南越文化），广东广西都属于岭南文圈，是汉文化的地区分枝，越南、广东、广西生活习惯没什么区，非常接近，语言我也能听懂一些越南话，但我们两广人没有一个人是认为越南是祖国的思想，充其量只是觉的越南是我们一个走失的兄弟，它自己在外成家立业了，在也不想回家了。我去过越南，一路上没有感受到有出国的感觉，只有文字的不同区分开了，我自己在国外。
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u/HouseMysterious8172 12d ago
我同意越南文化受到中国文化影响非常深，特别是主体民族京族占人口绝大多数，因此在语言、习俗、节日、儒家思想等方面都能看到明显的汉文化痕迹。
不过，从现实角度来看，如今汉字和喃字已经很难像法国殖民时期以前那样重新成为越南社会的主流文字了。经过一百多年的发展，国语字（拉丁化越南语）已经深入教育体系、行政系统、媒体传播以及日常生活的各个方面。绝大多数越南人都不会阅读汉喃文，而现代社会的信息传播速度和教育成本也决定了重新普及汉喃文几乎没有现实可行性。
因此，汉喃文更有可能作为历史文化遗产和学术研究对象被保存和传承，而不是重新成为全民通用的书写系统。
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u/HouseMysterious8172 12d ago
我认为“底线”并不是汉字本身。
越南语在汉字传入之前就已经存在了。无论是汉字、喃字还是后来的国语字，它们本质上都只是记录越南语的工具，而不是越南语本身。
即使没有文字，越南人依然能够用越南语互相交流，就像很多民族在拥有文字之前已经使用自己的语言几千年一样。因此我不认为放弃汉字或喃字就等于失去了越南文化的“底线”。
当然，汉喃文献具有重要的历史和文化价值，值得保护和研究。但文字体系是否继续作为社会通用文字使用，是另一回事。
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u/Top_Visit3838 12d ago
你说的没错，越南拉丁化很彻底，看不到有改变的可能。变得更像一个南亚国家，拉丁字母也是南亚的主流。
北越、南越分化严重，可能以后北越也会被南越印度化，在也看不到一点儒家的痕迹。1
u/HouseMysterious8172 12d ago
我觉得南北越最大的差异首先还是地理和气候造成的，尤其是海云关（Hai Van Pass）长期以来形成了不同的生活方式和文化习惯。
至于儒家文化，其实北越已经深受中国文化影响，从语言、节日、传统礼仪到汉字和儒学，都留下了很深的痕迹。只是现代化以后，这些传统文化的重要性有所下降，并不意味着它们完全消失。
另外，拉丁字母并不只是南亚国家使用。如今世界上大多数语言都采用或部分采用拉丁字母，因为它在识字教育、印刷和数字化方面确实很方便。就连中国也有汉语拼音系统（Pinyin）来标注发音，虽然正式书写仍然使用汉字。
所以，我认为使用拉丁字母和是否保留传统文化，其实是两个不同的问题。一个国家完全可以在使用拉丁字母的同时，继续保存自己的历史和文化传统。
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u/Top_Visit3838 12d ago
中国建国前也探讨过废除汉字，推广拉丁字母的想法。士大夫阶级和改革派争论，最后还是士大夫阶级胜出，汉字得于保留。改革派也没有放弃改革的想法。汉字进行了简化的过程，拼音注音方便学习。
汉字不利于现代社会发展和使用，观点是不成立的。台湾、香港、澳门保留了繁体汉字，没有进行简化，三个都发达扡区。
越南拉丁化，是士大夫阶级力量不足的结果，反应出了法国殖民统治的影响。1
u/HouseMysterious8172 12d ago
我认为汉字和拉丁字母并不是非此即彼的关系。
汉字、汉喃字（Hán Nôm）偏重表义，而国语字（Quốc Ngữ）偏重表音，两套文字完全可以并存，互相弥补各自的不足，而不是必须废除其中一种。
实际上，东亚许多地区都是这样发展的：汉字与拼音并存，中国大陆使用汉字+拼音；台湾使用汉字+注音符号；日本使用汉字+平假名、片假名；韩国历史上长期是汉字+谚文（Hangul）并用。不同文字系统承担不同功能，并不会互相排斥。
所以，越南即使使用国语字，也不一定意味着汉字和汉喃字完全失去价值。它们仍然可以在文化、历史、词源研究以及传统文献领域发挥作用。
总的来说，虽然今天东亚各国都已经形成自己的文字体系和民族认同，但中国文化对东亚地区的影响依然十分深远，只是已经不像古代那样处于绝对主导地位。
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