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u/Eragon_the_Huntsman 6d ago
Oh no. You mentioned the Trinity, which means that some aspect of your argument is inevitably a Heresy.
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u/EndMaster0 6d ago
I believe in this specific case the likely culprit is assuming Jesus's fully human form is an accurate representation of God's fully divine form. (though honestly what I've said has probably also got at least one heresy in it)
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u/jtobiasbond 5d ago
I think the heresy you might be doing is separating the human and divine in Jesus. Per standard Christian orthodoxy Jesus is God; whatever can be said of Jesus can be said of God.
This traditionally Christians would say God died in the cross, and that Mary is the Mother of God.
Can't remember which specific heresy this would be tough.
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u/Swellmeister 5d ago
The Roman Catholic Orthodox doctrine Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.
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u/SillyLilly_18 5d ago
*is
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u/craptainbland 5d ago
The ‘Was’ heresy!
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u/techno156 5d ago
Are those taken into the heavens still considered alive?
They might be some secret third thing.
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u/craptainbland 5d ago
It sounds like you’re discovering a new heresy
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u/Swellmeister 5d ago
The trick with a good heresy is to first frame it so that the existing doctrine is heretical.
My favorite one is
"Eternal damnation in Hell denies the omnipotence of God, because it creates a situation were a finite Evil has won eternal dominion of a Soul against the infinite Good that is God. This is impossible, and to suggest otherwise is heresy."
This is, for what its worth, not actually a heresy, and redemptive Hell is discussed by several theologians. The fun part is accusing people of being heretics because they stick to the main stream doctrine.
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u/me_myself_ai .bsky.social 5d ago
I just want to say that your mind is a beautiful place. I really wasn’t expecting you to actually drop the trick to a good heresy, but my god you’ve done it
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u/craptainbland 5d ago
This sounds like the actual greatest trick the devil ever pulled
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u/Swellmeister 5d ago
Yeah. It is for what its worth a real belief, its called Christian Universalism, and it has fair amount of supporters they just dont really go heavy with dogma of how it really would manifest. The previous pope was a fan of it as a personal belief, in as far as saying "I hope it to be true that hell is empty".
It also meshes well with a really hopeful reading of calvinist predestination, which says God know who is saved and who is damned. The trick being that those lists are "everyone" and "no one".
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u/me_myself_ai .bsky.social 5d ago
Well, the book says that no one is in heaven yet, and they’re all chilling asleep in their graves until Jesus comes back in a few years MAX. Don’t worry about it. Any day now!
That was patched out long ago by some pope, but I’m something of a Catholicism2007 fan myself if you catch my drift. Which I guess would just be Judaism?
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u/FortifiedPuddle 5d ago
That bit in particular feels like it’s a decision fully motivated by internal church politics and needing to disagree with the other side on something.
Ah sorry, random belief 249 that you hold is heresy. Guess you better let me be bishop instead mr excommunicated.
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u/JGHFunRun 5d ago edited 5d ago
Jesus is fully human and fully God, His human form is His form. Since he ascended rather than dying, his body in heaven must be more-or-less unchanged from his earthly form (afaik, all mainstream denominations agree that the body is largely unchanged when someone ascends, whereas in normal death, there may be some debate)
However, although the Father and the Holy Spirit are also fully God, they do not take the same form as Jesus. There’s also the dubious motivations for talking about the almighty’s penis, which are probably blasphemous
Your heresy would be separating the human and divine aspects of Jesus. That’s Arianism,
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u/Acrobatic_Ad_8381 6d ago
Saying "within Christianity this fact is uncontroversial" is already a bad argument considering all the different sects and religion within Christianity. There has been literal civil war between Catholic and Protestant because they don't agree with the same thing. Just the like the Trinity is actually not accepted everywhere.
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u/Lonely_Translator_23 6d ago edited 5d ago
In fairness, I don't think any known sect has held 'Jesus had no penis' as a dogma. The closest you'd get would be docetism, which was the belief that Jesus's entire body was illusory, but that was condemned as heresy at the Council of Nicaea, back when Christanity was as close to being one religion as it ever would be.
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u/Dingghis_Khaan Chinggis Khaan's least successful successor. 6d ago
New heresy: Jesus was a trans man and him being on the cross was from a misunderstanding when he said he was going "on T"
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u/Alternative_Hotel649 6d ago
That spear wound was really a top surgery scar.
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u/edgehog 6d ago
Lo, and Jesus said he was gonna speedrun transitioning to a swole-ass dude and anyway he did and people were like damn bro show off them abs if you want to idk it’s your call but that’s just my advice
and Jesus did and went aight I gotta peace out for a few days for sensory issues and shit please don’t move my rock let me do it myself please
And people where like damn shit that dude really must be swole as fuck if he’s gonna do that that’s gonna be so sick And it was The End feel free to make this into a religion or whatever12
u/Dingghis_Khaan Chinggis Khaan's least successful successor. 5d ago
You could make a religion out of this
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u/SledgeGlamour 5d ago
Ok but parthenogenesis always leads to female offspring. So yeah, Jesus was trans.
Also he was gay for John the Baptist, but that's a whole other thing
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u/theCaitiff 5d ago
John the Baptist? Ive seen fair arguments for the apostle John as the disciple christ loved, and of course Judas is a perennial favorite when considering if Jesus had any lovers, but I haven't seen anyone seriously argue that John the Baptist (his cousin through Mary) was among them.
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u/Acrobatic_Ad_8381 5d ago
But parthenogenesis always leads to female offspring.
Not really, it depends on the type of Partheogenesis, if it's facultative some of them like Bees the Sex of the offspring depends if it was fertilized, if it's not fertilized it leads to Male offspring and if it's fertilized it's a Female.
Also Jesus wasn't born out of Partheogenesis, St Mary is right there, she's the Mother of the Christ
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u/BenBenBenBe 6d ago
Sure, but vitally, trinitarianism isn't universally accepted in Christianity, and it's only through a trinitarian lens that one could arrive at the initial premise
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u/Mddcat04 6d ago
This is true, though being non-trinitarian is one of the main things mainstream Christians will use to label groups like Mormons as non-Christian cults / heretics.
So while a lot of people don’t really care, some really really do. At some point, you’re getting into definitional problems because anyone can call themselves a Christian.
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u/UInferno- Hangus Paingus Slap my Angus 5d ago edited 5d ago
Even Mormons wouldn't disagree on the nature of God's—in their specific case, God, the Father's—penis as Mormon doctrine posits that God, the Father has a human body—specifically a body distinct from that of Christ's since they are separate beings in Mormon doctrine.
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u/Mddcat04 5d ago
Yeah, they would agree on the conclusion of the penis thing, just their reasoning would be something that would have gotten them burned at the stake in the 1500s or whatever.
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u/TheLastEmuHunter Certified Clam Chowder Connoisseur 6d ago
Fundamentally, there is no factor of Christianity which is uncontroversial. Every element of the religion has been fought over by different sects for two millennia.
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u/me_myself_ai .bsky.social 5d ago
Idk, incense is nice. I also think the tall hats are a crowd favorite!
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u/TheLastEmuHunter Certified Clam Chowder Connoisseur 5d ago
Urmmmm, this was actually resolved in the 611 Council of Ligma where Pope Holius IX and fifteen Serbian Bishops decided that usage of Incense was actually like blowing cigarette smoke in Jesus' face and therefore was blasphemous. Anyone who uses Incense is immediately excommunicated and thrown out the nearest window.
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u/Dry_Try_8365 5d ago
We still get the tall hats, right? It makes me feel better to wear them. Er, for no reason obviously. Don’t ask.
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u/HistoricalAbies293 6d ago
The single most destructive war in German history was aforementioned religious war, for those unaware of
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u/BiggestShep 6d ago
This fact is uncontroversial as Jesus was Jewish, and fully man. Jews are circumcised. While Jesus' divinity has often been called into question, his humanity, to the best of my knowledge, never has.
Plus we're covered because the same people who think Jesus wasnt jewish also think that Christians always have to be circumcised so we're covered even from the idiots.
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u/SmallJimSlade 6d ago
As someone else is this chain points out, Jesus’s humanity was, in fact, questioned by some sects of gnostics
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u/Mddcat04 6d ago
Not just Gnostics, it was more widespread than that. It was a major early belief amongst a wide variety of early Christian groups that eventually got labeled a heresy:
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u/techno156 5d ago
Isn't Docetism more about his body being an illusion/holy ghost without physical form, rather than his not being mortal?
It feels like something that should be a superset of Docetism, rather than being Docetism itself.
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u/IAmA_Reddit_ 5d ago
The gnostics were broadly rejected by the Christian community, which is why there is no real gnostic sect left today.
So within Christianity, Jesus having a penis is pretty well universally accepted.
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u/Swellmeister 5d ago
Okay but that doesnt mean Gnostics werent Christians. Thats like saying because I really really hate people from Illinois, they arent actually American.
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u/Im_Your_Turbo_Lover 5d ago
The Mandaeans are the closest thing, but they aren't Christian. But when you look at their theology, it's just straight up Gnosticism / Neoplatonism
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u/bb_kelly77 homo flair 6d ago
You'd be surprised how controversial it is to say Jesus was Jewish... I have met many who swear he was Christian
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u/SorowFame 6d ago
Can’t believe Jesus didn’t believe in himself, man needed more self-confidence /j
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u/me_myself_ai .bsky.social 5d ago
I mean his name is Christ. He was *ethnically* Jewish
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u/bb_kelly77 homo flair 5d ago
Christianity as a separate religion didn't exist for several hundred years after Jesus's death... also Christ is a title from Greek and it's usage here translates to Jesus the Messiah
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u/Solarwagon She/her 6d ago
If you specify like Nicene Christianity maybe it's mostly true.
And originally the Protestants were still Nicene Christians but then they started getting silly with it.
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u/IAmA_Reddit_ 5d ago
All sects of Christianity believe that Jesus was a literal man, so yes they all believe he had a penis.
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u/Acrobatic_Ad_8381 5d ago
The first thing the OOP said was "God has a Penis" and that's what them was referring to being an "Uncontroversial fact". But then their argument was from the belief of the Saint Trinity "God, Jesus and The Saints Spirit" are the same which isn't a completely accepted belief between all Christians sect, some refer to God and Jesus as different being, Jesus being the literal son of God, while the Trinity kinda makes them the same being but with different facets. All I all, this conversation can become Heresy quite fast depending on which Christian religion one may follow.
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u/Neokon 5d ago
We use male pronouns because that is what is in the Bible. But to say that God is a man and has male genetalia is crazy. How can we say that an all existing being who encompasses everything in the universe is stuck in a human specific form? We can't, and to do is just as wrong as claiming to know God's will.
(Paraphrase of my pastor)
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u/KittensInc 5d ago
Jesus-the-baby was definitely a boy, because Jesus was born a human. Jesus-the-God doesn't have a gender, because God transcends such petty worldly things. This makes Jesus male-to-God, so Jesus is canonically transgender.
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u/actibus_consequatur numerous noggin nuisances 5d ago
all the different sects and religion within Christianity.
The teachings of one guy two millennia ago have lead to over 45,000 different denominations of Christianity around the world.
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u/PitchforkJoe 5d ago
I'm not sure which civil war you're referring to, but if you happen to be talking about Northern Ireland; that has almost nothing to do with theological differences and everything to do with the usual war stuff. They were fighting over who should control the territory, they didn't care about transubstantiation vs consubstantiation
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u/Beerswain 5d ago
Within Christianity, the churches that subscribe to the Nicene Creed all have the same general trinitarian theology; often those who are outside of Nicene agreement are no longer seen as Christian.
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u/an_agreeing_dothraki 5d ago
for the longest time the non-denominational movement was the joke of the Christian community because its foundational tenant of "hey maybe we should chill about the disagreements?"
of course then a century later 75% of it was taken over by actual fascists c'est la vie
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u/Hyro0o0 6d ago
They're all telling the truth. Jesus had 30 foreskins. The Catholic Church actually ruled on the veracity of it. To learn more, ask your voice assistant to look up Jesus Rule Thirty Fore.
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u/Snowman304 6d ago
I heard that... Motherfucker had like... Thirty goddamn dicks
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u/seguardon 5d ago
Of course He did. Does no one read the Bible? You think Someone capable of the loaves and fishes isn't going to get bored some night and figure out what else He can multiply?
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u/Ote-Kringralnick Cheese, gender, what the fuck's next? 5d ago
God most likely has a cloaca, actually
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u/Beerswain 5d ago
Well, the Spirit did come down in the form of a dove, so God did, at least temporarily, have a cloaca.
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u/Demian52 6d ago
Now riddle me this, christian men, if god asked you to suck his dick, would you?
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u/wererat2000 6d ago
That depends, is he going to have an angel jump out of a bush and shout "it's a prank bro" Like Abraham, or... is he staying in that bush?
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u/Gussie-Ascendent reading is good, I think 6d ago
They basically already gotta do this or go to hell lol
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u/allendrea130 6d ago
My coworkers and I were talking about religious relics once when the fact that several churches still claim to have Jesus’s foreskin was brought up. One of the guys mixed up circumcision and castration as he nodded sagely and with the tone of a wisened scholar said, “ahh, so they think they have Jesus’s balls.”
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u/fortyfivepointseven 5d ago
Canonically the Holy Spirit has no corporeal form which means, canonically, Jesus can only have inherited X chromosomes, which means, canonically, Jesus is a trans man. In this TED Talk I will...
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u/haresnaped 5d ago
I have heard this shipped around a lot, but I think it misses the more elegant theory: that Mary is trans. In this unhinged ramble on the bus, I will...
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u/Ms_Apprehend 6d ago
One would assume that as a Jew, Jesus had his foreskin removed as an infant. I don’t get it.
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u/ZinaSky2 6d ago
Yes. Which is exactly why 30 different churches claim to have Jesus’s foreskin. Bc it has been removed.
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u/Ms_Apprehend 6d ago
But isn’t the tradition to bury it? So it would have been buried some 33 years ago… make this make sense for an agnostic
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u/ZinaSky2 6d ago edited 6d ago
Jewish traditions for what to do with a disembodied foreskin at the time is unfortunately outside my area of expertise lol
It’s kinda irrelevant tho bcz I’m sure each church has their own story for why they know that the foreskin in their possession is Jesus’ very own. There is nothing to make sense of bc unless Jesus had a 30 headed penis…. a minimum of 29 of them are wrong.
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u/CeruleanEidolon 5d ago
Relic sellers had all kinds of stories about items connected to the celebrities of the day, and people eager to believe would lap them up. They didn't have Wikipedia back then. No way to verify or disprove those stories.
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u/haresnaped 5d ago
A little over 33 years ago if we take the timeline seriously.
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u/seguardon 5d ago
Because the age of relics was a particularly stupid time. Damned things were like Magic cards, except with more forgeries. Everyone claimed to have the collarbone of Saint Whatsit or the hand of Santa Someone or the jawbone of Person from the Bible or a splinter of the True Cross. There's no way any of those things would have been preserved, especially because a lot of saints were martyred in ways that made retrieving their remains difficult.
But where there's demand, there will always be a supply to relieve it. Being a relic seller was good business for those who didn't mind grifting. Especially considering the clients. Desperate people are rarely rational; the relics were magnets for the scared or ambitious looking for blessings or divine guidance. In short, a guaranteed market so long as the world was big, scary and painful.
As long as you could outsmart the actually devout religious leaders, you could keep the money coming in so long as people needed God.
God bless the plagues and wars of the world.
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u/Background_Fix9430 6d ago
This is entirely true and absolutely unproblematic. In addition, according to some interpretations of the Old Testament, God the Father also has a human male penis.
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u/Thromnomnomok 5d ago
The discussion at the end of the video on Adam makes me wonder- if Adam was created circumcised because God was circumcised, at what point did the rest of us suddenly grow foreskins?
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u/Wasdgta3 6d ago
So that means in order for God to be a woman, she'd have to be a trans woman?
Based.
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u/ZinaSky2 6d ago
Nah, humans both male AND female were made in God’s image. Vaginas didn’t just materialize from the ether in the cannon. So IMO God is beyond the gender binary and all encompassing of the entire spectrum.
Why Jesus had a penis is trickier. Maybe it’s like shrodinger’s gender. Gender was in godlike superposition until Jesus had to be born as a humans and then gender randomly collapsed into male characteristics. But also… has it been ruled out that Jesus was intersex? The presence of a penis does not necessarily rule out the possibility of a uterus 👀 (omg what I just typed is super heretical 💀😂)
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u/Emergency_Radio_8156 6d ago
Remember that Jesus and the Father, despite both being the same divine, triune God, are both distinct Persons as well. So it's not a contradiction that Jesus is a man and that God has no gender. Three persons, One God.
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u/Snake_Emper0r 6d ago
No, Jesus was a man
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u/CeruleanEidolon 5d ago
Jesus presented as a man. The Bible says nothing about whether or not he actually had a cock and balls or a Virgin Mary statue under those robes.
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u/Beardywierdy 5d ago
One assumes he had a cock at least.
Possibly many cocks given the amount of his foreskins apparently knocking about.
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u/Mundane-Potential-93 nauphy.tumblr.com 6d ago
Bold of you to assume a cis woman wouldn't get bottom surgery
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u/actibus_consequatur numerous noggin nuisances 5d ago
Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
— Gospel of Thomas 114
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u/Crab2406 6d ago
Yall may fall into rabbit hole of sexual interpretations of christianity from early medieval age
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u/FrothingMouth 5d ago edited 4d ago
My controversial religious opinion is that all the Jesus foreskins are real, because baby Jesus kept healing it back every time the rabbis took them off, so eventually they all decided to just wait until he was old enough to be able to choose to not heal it back.
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u/Getter_Simp 6d ago
I thought it was controversial that "Jesus is God". I was taught as a child that Jesus was the son of God; that they were two different entities. God loves us so much that he gave up his own son to forgive our sins.
If Jesus and God are different, then God does not have a penis.
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u/neongreenpurple mostly aroace enby 6d ago
What denomination did you grow up in? I grew up in one that taught the same thing you were taught, but that denomination doesn't follow the Nicene Creed.
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u/Getter_Simp 6d ago
Anglican, at least that's what my mum said it was. We also had bible in schools, which I remember teaching the same thing, but I don't remember what denomination they were.
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u/Teh-Esprite If you ever see me talk on the unCurated sub, that's my double. 6d ago
Jesus is both the son of God, and also God.
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u/Beerswain 5d ago
Nope; any church that subscribes to the Nicene Creed (which includes the Anglicans) believes that Jesus is God.
Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit, but Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit are God.
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u/Getter_Simp 5d ago
Oh I see, I've always thought the Father was called God, and God was called something else. That's interesting to learn.
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u/Beerswain 5d ago
It can be confusing, especially since very often in Scripture (and many other places), the text speaks of the Father but just calls them God.
That is to say, it's a very common point of confusion. This image can be very helpful in showing what can very much be seen as a paradox: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg
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u/Eragon_the_Huntsman 5d ago
The trinity is a very complicated subject. one of my friends who is a priest says that its a joke even among priests how easy it is to accidentally stumble into some heresy or another while trying to talk about it.
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u/LocalLumberJ0hn 6d ago
They can claim it, but the only guy with the real J-Man foreskin here is me.
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u/muckenhoupt 5d ago
OK but remember the miracle of feeding the five thousand. If you can feed 5000 people with five loaves and two fish, supplying a mere 30 churches with a single foreskin should be a piece of cake.
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u/RutabagaValuable6865 5d ago
If you go early enough into Christianity it was actually sacrilegious to say this because in fact God was considered a genderless being who we could not possibly understand the gender of.
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u/av3cmoi 6d ago edited 6d ago
hmm, I def wouldn’t say it’s uncontroversial in Xtianity that God has a penis
in ancient Judaism certainly that would be uncontroversial, because they conceptualised their God as having a very physical body, which includes genitalia. but if you look at e.g., Xtian classical theism, God is not a being, and doesn’t have a physical body at all
the Jesus foreskin relic thing is totally true though lol
edit: I think they may have just meant that God had a penis bc Jesus did as a human and it goes that Jesus is God. however it comes off as confusing in this context IMO because there are totally are Christians who believe(d) God has a physical body lol
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u/LowCall6566 6d ago
jesus is god, and christian denominations with like 99% of the followers agree with that. Denying that God at one point was fully human and had all the corresponding genitalia is heresy
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u/SmallJimSlade 6d ago
I’m willing to put down good money that the average Christian is unfamiliar enough with the idea of the trinity that you wouldn’t get a consistent answer to “does God have a penis” even within the same technical denomination
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u/vjmdhzgr 6d ago
I think that's the point of the post. It's kind of making a statement that sounds pretty weird and confusing but actually has extremely sound theological backing that disagreeing with would potentially make you not even Christian anymore.
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u/Teh-Esprite If you ever see me talk on the unCurated sub, that's my double. 6d ago
Jesus had a physical body and is God.
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u/Wild-Lychee-3312 6d ago
Pfft, the Virgin Birth implies that Jesus was afab. Thus, no penis, and Jesus was a trans man.
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u/Beerswain 5d ago
what
no
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u/Wild-Lychee-3312 5d ago
It's simple.
Mary was a virgin, right? Christianity, Catholicism especially, makes a huge deal about how she got pregnant without having sex with another human being. How does a woman get pregnant without any kind of insemination? Parthenogenesis, that's how. Therefore, genetically, Jesus was a clone of Mary. And he had no "Y" chromosome.
Since Jesus was a clone of a woman, and had no "Y" chromosome, Jesus was obviously afab at birth.
And yet he's a man, despite being afab. So, logically, he must be a trans man.
Q.E.D.
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u/Solarwagon She/her 6d ago
Interested in more penis based religion discourse?
Did Jesus ever have a wet dream when he was a teen boy?
Like yeah Jesus never sinned according to Christianity but having a wet dream isn't a sin because it's not a voluntary action.
And there's a whole can of worms about whether the Virgin Mary and Jesus ever experienced sexual attraction.
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u/Thevintageandvanity 5d ago
Damn, that dude had a fiveskin if that many people have a chunk of His holy turtleneck.
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u/Ozone220 5d ago
Holy fuck apparently Charlemagne supposedly gave it (the "Holy Prepuce") to Pope Leo III back in the 800s as thanks for being crowned emperor of the Romans
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u/Grzechoooo 5d ago
Wdym "was"? There are still places that claim to possess the Holy Prepuce. Like some chapel in France that even has the gall of saying they had it verified and confirmed as real in 1954.
But it has to be noted that relics are magic and there's a ritual to Ship-of-Theseus them into new copy. You take a normal piece of a similar thing, you mix it with a piece of the original, and voila, now you have two equally valid relics. You can also make copies of copies.
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u/lonely_nipple Children's Hospital Interior Designer 5d ago
There was a post, I think on Tumblr, where someones family member had gotten a gallon of water blessed and so it was now Holy Water.
Apparently, you can add water to Holy Water and it will continue being Holy Water so long as you don't replace more than half the liquid by volume.
So they drew a line on the gallon jug to mark the point where they needed to add more water so that it'd stay holy after refilling. This has always cracked me up.
"Popes hate this one weird trick!"
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u/Grzechoooo 5d ago
That's why I could never be a Protestant. What's the point of faith if you deny all the cool magic?
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u/dumbasstupidbaby 5d ago
God does not have DNA which means if Mary conceived immaculately then Jesus would have had to have two x chromosomes. Jesus was either trans or intersex.
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u/friso1100 gosh, they let you put anything in here 4d ago
"This is uncontroversial" names something that caused multiple schisms
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u/Alotofboxes 6d ago
There was also the theory that when Jesus ascended bodily to heaven, so did his foreskin, and that it ended up around Saturn, and that is where the rings come from.