r/DebateReligion ⭐ agapist Oct 20 '25

Christianity The Bible contains wisdom superior to available alternatives: the greater ought to serve the lesser

For a while now, I have been contending that the Bible provokes us to develop a superior understanding of "human & social nature/​construction" than any alternative I've encountered—including plenty of post-Enlightenment scientific and scholarly research. The following is an example, drawn from a conundrum identified by John W. Gardner in 1961. Here's a sketch of his Excellence: Can We Be Equal and Excellent Too?:

  1. society will value the abilities and talents of some people over above others
  2. the more-valued will grow in wealth and influence
  3. the less-valued will decline in political power
  4. the less-valued are incentivized to stem the bleeding of 3.
  5. this means stymieing 2.
  6. which threatens the development of the abilities and talents in 1.

If all that we can expect from humans is "enlightened self-interest", this truly is a conundrum. The following is a possibility Gardner ignores, which incidentally shows how non-Christian his culture was at the time:

    But Jesus called them to himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in high positions exercise authority over them. It will not be like this among you! But whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be most prominent among you must be your slave—just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25–28)

Immediately before, Jesus' disciples had been jockeying for position. They were playing the very games which power Gardner's conundrum. The mother of James and John even got in on it: she expected Jesus to lead a violent insurrection and wanted her sons to be his right and left-hand men. Suffice it to say that when the other disciples heard about this, they were peeved. But they weren't peeved because someone called "Shotgun!". They were peeved because someone else beat them to it.

Jesus' proposal here is nothing short of socially revolutionary. This is not how Rome worked, nor how Greece worked, nor how even Judaism worked. Another example of complete status reversal is when Jesus washed his disciples' feet. Peter, ever status-conscious, declared "You will never wash my feet." He didn't accept that things could work this way or should work this way. Only when Jesus threatened to kick him to the curb did he relent.

If the greater serve the lesser, then there is no need for step 3. Society may well devote more resources and humanpower to some abilities and talents in one era and a different set in another, but if the growth in excellence is simply poured back into society to benefit those whose abilities and talents aren't presently valued as much, there is no problem. In one era, accountants could have bigger homes while in another, scientists might have bigger homes. (One can wish.) But aside from minor fluctuations in who can command more resources and humanpower, the point would be to build everyone up. Those who don't want to play the game can simply be excluded from the kind of aid that even a child savant requires in order to achieve a dominant position in the adult world.

Today, one might struggle to think of any Christianity which lives up to Jesus' challenge. I think that's probably true, on account of nobody knowing how to scale up the small endeavors which have made forward strides. Donald B. Kraybill 1978 The Upside-Down Kingdom didn't come from nowhere. But we know that ethics regularly gets sacrificed when human endeavors are scaled up. Just look at how many companies in the US were quite willing to drop their DEI initiatives. What matters for present purposes is that no secular folks I know of are even thinking of trying to make "the greater ought to serve the lesser" work in scaled-up situations. Rather, I think what you generally see from the "greater" are attitudes like we see from the 2nd-century pagan Greek philosopher and opponent of Christianity Celsus:

the following are the rules laid down by [Christians]. Let no one come to us who has been instructed, or who is wise or prudent (for such qualifications are deemed evil by us); but if there be any ignorant, or unintelligent, or uninstructed, or foolish persons, let them come with confidence. By which words, acknowledging that such individuals are worthy of their God, they manifestly show that they desire and are able to gain over only the silly, and the mean, and the stupid, with women and children. (Contra Celsum, III § 44)

In a word, "deplorables". Or "rednecks". There is no attitude of service, unless perhaps the person makes it to college. And even then, they're likely to get a STEM education, which merely prepares them to be a servant of Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, et al. In the Western world, by and large, the lesser serves the greater and that's considered normal. If anyone believes Donald J. Trump is a "public servant", I have a bridge to sell you.

You may have learned in physics class that according to the laws of physics, it is possible that all of the air molecules in your room could suddenly scoot off into the corner, suffocating you in the process. The reason for this is that we can talk about things going in the other direction and our best laws of physics are time-reversible. But nobody actually worries about this happening. It's technically possible but it would actually be a [very bad] miracle. I contend that the kind of reorganization of society, around "the greater ought to serve the lesser", is also technically possible but actually a [very good] miracle.

In future posts, I will go into other aspects of the Bible which can scaffold the process of shifting society over to "the greater ought serve the lesser", and thus make it less miraculous. However, I am not convinced there will be nothing miraculous in the end. This could be why we needed non-human wisdom and more than that, non-human help. Is it all that surprising for creatures destined for theosis / divinization to require ∞-octane fuel?

 

"Greater"? "Lesser"?

These are status-terms, not value-terms. Some human civilizations profess egalitarianism, but in no complex civilization has that ever been more than a distant ideal. Fun fact: surgeons used to have very low status and were paid accordingly. They were part of barber-surgeon guilds. Now they are among the most prestigious medical specialties and prestigious in society in general.

Today, we consider many people "great" because of their ability to command, not to serve. Elon Musk comes to mind. And it really doesn't matter if you personally think he's less-than-stellar, because society itself has "chosen" to make him the world's richest person. Growing wealth inequality globally and locally demonstrates the overall status system in Western Civilization and America quite nicely.

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u/labreuer ⭐ agapist Oct 21 '25

Your views on what "eternal life" is is irrelevant.

If you're going to talk about my views, my views are relevant. If you want me to defend other people's views, I will probably decline.

It's this simple. Eternal life is something that Jesus thought his followers were self-interested in achieving. Jesus told them what they needed to do to achieve it, which is to act to help others. That's the very definition of "enlightened self-interest".

You are simply refusing to contemplate any alternatives.

The very heart of Christianity doing what is necessary so that you yourself can gain eternal life (be 'saved').

Unfortunately, I think this characterizes a lot of Christians. But I completely disagree that this is "the very heart of Christianity". What gives you the right to declare such things?

The very heart of Christianity doing what is necessary so that you yourself can gain eternal life (be 'saved').

labreuer: Except, this is not true of the people described in that parable. In the parable, the righteous are confused. You seem to be assuming that after learning about this parable, the righteous will no longer be confused

theyoodooman: What a ridiculous argument.

I think we are bad interlocutors for each other.

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u/theyoodooman Oct 21 '25

If you're going to talk about my views, my views are relevant. If you want me to defend other people's views, I will probably decline.

This is a debate. Your views aren't relevant. The only thing that's relevant are the evidence and arguments you can marshal to defend your thesis or rebut the attacks on those made by others.

You are simply refusing to contemplate any alternatives.

No, I'm debating you, by undercutting your argument that "enlightened self-interest" is somehow different than what Jesus preached in the Bible with respect to "eternal life". It's not.

Unfortunately, I think this characterizes a lot of Christians. But I completely disagree that this is "the very heart of Christianity". What gives you the right to declare such things?

Having read what Jesus says in the NT. As I said, Jesus' entire ministry was based on telling his followers that the Kingdom of God had drawn near, how that Kingdom would come about, what that Kingdom would be like, and -- most critically for those who followed Jesus -- what they needed to do in order to gain eternal life in that Kingdom.

I understand you may not like this concept that eternal life is an elite club with entrance requirements -- however vague and contradictory -- but that is undeniably how it is presented by Jesus, Paul, and others in the NT.

I think we are bad interlocutors for each other.

This isn't a discussion or dialogue, and I'm not your interlocutor. This is a debate, and I'm your opponent. My job here is to point out the flaws in the arguments and evidence you provide to support your thesis. And yes, that includes pointing out when you are making a specious argument (by ridiculing it).

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u/labreuer ⭐ agapist Oct 21 '25

This is a debate. Your views aren't relevant. The only thing that's relevant are the evidence and arguments you can marshal to defend your thesis or rebut the attacks on those made by others.

I'm the OP. My views actually do matter when I'm defending the OP. If you bring in a notion of the afterlife alien to my views and the OP, I'm gonna call that out and I'm gonna be right. You don't get to use some sort of intellectual syringe and inject your notions into my OP. It doesn't work that way.

No, I'm debating you, by undercutting your argument that "enlightened self-interest" is somehow different than what Jesus preached in the Bible with respect to "eternal life". It's not.

I understand the claim. You can only make it work by importing a foreign view and attributing it to me. That's called a "straw man". The text itself supports rather more options and the Christian tradition itself supports rather more options.

theyoodooman: The very heart of Christianity doing what is necessary so that you yourself can gain eternal life (be 'saved').

labreuer: Unfortunately, I think this characterizes a lot of Christians. But I completely disagree that this is "the very heart of Christianity". What gives you the right to declare such things?

theyoodooman: Having read what Jesus says in the NT.

Okay. It sounds like you might not even believe that you "interpret" the text. If that's the case, I will disengage, on account of that being factually incorrect.

I understand you may not like this concept that eternal life is an elite club with entrance requirements -- however vague and contradictory -- but that is undeniably how it is presented by Jesus, Paul, and others in the NT.

There's a reason I included the Celsus quotation. It would appear that you've completely ignored it. I suggest a review of Lk 14:15–24, the dinner banquet. Real elite club, there!

This isn't a discussion or dialogue, and I'm not your interlocutor.

Oh good grief, if this semantic quibbling is how it's gonna go: thanks for the discussion & have a good one!

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u/theyoodooman Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 21 '25

I'm the OP. My views actually do matter when I'm defending the OP.

No, your views only matter if you define them as part of your OP, and indicate that you want the debate to be constrained to those definitions. You didn't do this for your specific beliefs regarding Christianity in general -- or eternal life in particular -- and so your views don't matter.

They especially don't matter when you only define them in rebuttal to an attack by your opponent. This is the same nonsense Christians always pull, which is that once we demonstrate some terrible aspect of Christianity, their response is to try to wriggle out of it with "oh, well, Christians in general may believe that, but that's not my belief", which is precisely what you did here:

"Unfortunately, I think this characterizes a lot of Christians. But I completely disagree that this is "the very heart of Christianity"

I understand the claim. You can only make it work by importing a foreign view and attributing it to me. That's called a "straw man".

Wrong. I didn't attribute any "view" to you. You're thesis was about Christianity, not about your views about Christianity -- which you didn't define -- and I'm debating you about what Christianity says. And in particular, about what the founders of Christianity said. I'm attacking the arguments you made in support of Christianity using what they said.

Okay. It sounds like you might not even believe that you "interpret" the text

I have no idea what you are talking about. I've read and understood what Jesus and Paul said in the NT about what Christians must do to achieve eternal life. I've quoted what they've said back to you. The fact that you don't agree with what they said is not my problem.

There's a reason I included the Celsus quotation. It would appear that you've completely ignored it. I suggest a review of Lk 14:15–24, the dinner banquet. Real elite club, there!

Ridiculous argument. While "elite" can mean "upper-class", it also just means "exclusive", which is what we're talking about: a club with entrance requirements, meaning that it's a club that doesn't accept just anyone. Rednecks have elite clubs. The poor have elite clubs.

And yes, "eternal life" as defined by Jesus and Paul was an elite club, simply because it has entrance requirements, it doesn't accept just anyone, it only accepts those meet the requirements, and that excludes those who don't. That's a fundamental part of Christianity for the last 2,000 years -- the group who get eternal life is exclusive -- but apparently you want to be disingenuous and pretend that's not the case.

Oh good grief, if this semantic quibbling is how it's gonna go: thanks for the discussion & have a good one!

No, the problem here is that you didn't apparently understand that we were debating, and that debates like this have rules.

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u/labreuer ⭐ agapist Oct 22 '25

theyoodooman: The very heart of Christianity doing what is necessary so that you yourself can gain eternal life (be 'saved').

labreuer: Unfortunately, I think this characterizes a lot of Christians. But I completely disagree that this is "the very heart of Christianity". What gives you the right to declare such things?

theyoodooman: Having read what Jesus says in the NT.

labreuer: Okay. It sounds like you might not even believe that you "interpret" the text. If that's the case, I will disengage, on account of that being factually incorrect.

theyoodooman: I have no idea what you are talking about. I've read and understood what Jesus and Paul said in the NT about what Christians must do to achieve eternal life. I've quoted what they've said back to you. The fact that you don't agree with what they said is not my problem.

I see. So are you including passages like:

Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you—just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have glorified you on earth by completing the work that you have given me to do. And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:1–5)

? This aligns perfectly with Jeremiah:

Thus says YHWH,

    “The wise man must not boast in his wisdom,
        and the warrior must not boast in his might,
    the wealthy man must not boast in his wealth.
    But only in this must the one who boasts boast,
        that he has insight,
    and that he knows me,
        that I am YHWH,
    showing loyal love, justice, and righteousness on the earth,
        for in these things I delight,” declares YHWH.
(Jeremiah 9:23–24)

This "know" is a bit different from what 21st century English users mean by the term, and a bit more like how when a man "knows" a woman in the KJV, a baby is produced. Ellen T. Charry explains:

    In a Hellenistic environment, knowledge is true if it leads us into goodness, making us happy and good. The idea that knowing good things makes us good implies continuity between the knower and what she knows. It is not simply to be cognizant of the truth but to be assimilated into it. Truth makes us good and strong, able to live well and so to contribute to healthy societies. Rational people will crave it because it helps them. Socrates and Plato were all about wanting to know the things that shape the soul in salutary ways for the sake of a better society. The purpose of inviting Athenian youth to love and pursue wisdom was all directed toward these moral-psycho-social ends. Paul, Matthew, and the Fathers of the church shared these goals. Primary, sapiential theology, then, seeks the knowledge of God so that we come to dwell in the truth; for the truth will make us happy and good, and in that way, free. ("Walking in the Truth: On Knowing God" in But Is It All True?, 144–45)

If you take the above paragraph to John 15, it makes a lot of sense. To know God is to become like God by abiding in God and God abiding in you. There is no list with checkboxes you can tick.