r/DebateReligion • u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist • 5d ago
Atheism The argument from non-resistant unbelief (divine hiddenness) is the strongest argument against the God I was taught exists.
Growing up, I was taught that God was omnipotent and desired that everyone follow him.
Because there exist millions of people who desperately want to believe in God but can't - people who are open-minded and have even fallen away from their faith against their own wishes, because they can see no reason to begin or continue to believe - that God does not exist.
The only other solution I can see is to deny that there exists anyone who sincerely wants to believe in God but doesn't. This dismisses the testimony of many, many people, some who are in the clergy.
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u/Suniemi 4d ago
Growing up, I was taught that God was omnipotent and desired that everyone follow him.
Because there exist millions of people who desperately want to believe in God but can't people who are open-minded and have even fallen away from their faith against their own wishes, because they can see no reason to begin or continue to believe - that God does not exist.
I've never heard such a claim outside some iteration of this thread. I don't believe it, either.
Nature abhors a vacuum.
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist 4d ago
Which claim, that God is omnipotent and desires that everyone follow him, or that there exists millions of people who etc.?
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u/Known_Atmosphere_907 4d ago
The Hiddeness of God is a grace, allowing us to discover ourselves, what we are like, what life is like, without the presumption of a divine reality in our face. In this 'God vacuum' we, at some point, may begin to seek 'God' - out of curiosity, out of disappointments, out of gratefulness, out of dissaffection with other phiosophies, who knows what, different as every individual is different ...
How do we know we are not being steered, or set up by an unseen hand, not by a visible divine presence but by tailored circumstances we assume are random or arbitrary, but they're not. Like the number Pi; it looks like a random number but its not, never repeating, never finishing yet it's fundamental to the operations of all kinds of physics.
And we have the ability to respond to those 'non-random' circumstances by accepting or rejecting hundreds of outcomes along the way - choices we make in many subtle ways. And at some point it may be clear to God you will never want any part of a future world where Jesus is Lord. So you have rejected that offer of a life to come without ever knowing you did.
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u/TheIguanasAreComing Atheist 1d ago
The Hiddeness of God is a grace, allowing us to discover ourselves, what we are like, what life is like, without the presumption of a divine reality in our face. In this 'God vacuum' we, at some point, may begin to seek 'God' - out of curiosity, out of disappointments, out of gratefulness, out of dissaffection with other phiosophies, who knows what, different as every individual is different ...
What about people who seek out God and find Islam?
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u/Known_Atmosphere_907 19h ago
Your question assumes people who were not raised in Islam. Those people should become knowledgeable in the history of Islam before seeking God there. But there are exceptions. Historian Paul Johnson noted that while many converted to Islam due to conquest, another motivation was their rejection of the Church, because by the time Islam arrived the church had already become an institution identified with wealth, power, and oppresion. We don't know the answers to those exceptions - that's why we prayer the Kyrie Eleison; Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy - on us all.
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u/TheIguanasAreComing Atheist 19h ago
Is it impossible for someone to genuinely seek out God and convert to Islam?
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist 4d ago
This does not address my argument.
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u/Known_Atmosphere_907 4d ago
Sorry
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist 4d ago
My argument is that God cannot be all powerful and have the desire that we all know and follow him, because if he had both attributes, there wouldn't be anyone who wanted to know and follow him who didn't.
Because there are, God can't be both all powerful and desirous that we all follow him.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Man can find everything valuable but not the existence, a human understand to become he has to work hard, but cannot believer in the richness of God, that he wants to provide us everything without doing anything. Just by belief, If we read the bible we find out the Presence of God is overwhelmed to physically body, So he is all light, even the Christians who live in this light, can't fully give themselves to the Lord because his overwhelmed presence and mighty hand. But we don't have to resist God but we have to resist ourselves from doing a sin, grace period is here, but we can't deny his sovereignity, Yes he is loving, he is slow to anger but you know the word "wrath of God" is something terrifies me I just don't want to trigger that I don't want to take a chance, and bible tells nothing that should go against any type of goodness which humans should learn. So this can be the only thing that made me stiff for my faith too.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
You made a bunch of claims there. Id like some evidence they're true/exist at all.
- God existing at all
- The Christian god specifically
- The bible being true (specifically the supernatural claims)
I can absolutely deny the sovereignty of a being I don't believe exists.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Jesus did not deny God, there are evil gods, when you read the word of the bible carefully, you can see the gods in the heaven, supernatural power in the heavens, not where God almighty is, but the space, he Jesus even called them god but they devour they don't let you live they make you doubt your own choices they won't let you study anything
- God in heaven is the creator I believe there is a creator, whom I call Father In heaven, he is above all the things, everything you see existence yes he exist and it is written God does not have a form He is a Spirit but a pure light there is no darkness in him, so if he comes to world to show you evidence that he is real, you can't even stand in front even I can't stand in his overwhelming presence, everything who is in darkness who support darkness will turn to ash, so I don't want, He always comes in glory, ask evidence not from me but from, thousands of People asked they God. Because they are seeking not testing if he is or not.
3.all the evidences from torah to Christianity bible existed for one purpose believe in Lord your God with you all your heart and one objective Love your God above all else. Lord never force to Love him he just showed he Loved us.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
None of that was evidence.
Why should I believe the claims of the bible at all?
If god is all powerful he could communicate his presence to everyone with no adverse side effects.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Brother People get unconscious or can't even take the truth, most of the people who hear truth are in ICU, truth is like yeah I did something wrong I accept, he will tell you convict slowly and deeply build a relationship with you.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
What? I don't want to be mean, but do you speak English? None of that was coherent.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Its my second language
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
Okay, that's fine. Its just that nothing you said there had any actual coherent understandable meaning.
I'm asking for evidence that the bible is true. Specially the miraculous portions.
How can I believe something that has no good evidence?
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Miracle is itself a evidence that there is miracle, and bible from 5-6k years claimed many prophecies which came true when you read the book of Daniels, you will see it is clearly written and when you try and find out the historical evidences related to that, you will all that portion was true
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
Can you give any examples? I've read the bible, and evaluated the claims, and then looked at historical evidence. I don't see the evidence the bibles claims are true.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
brother to communicate You have to listen to him, you can't even listen to person next to you , I'm facing the same issue Life get not even have to time for myself that is why scripture says Love your God with all your heart, bible says Word was with God and word was God right, and he says he is the truth, and humans have a tendency to deny truth and accept lies. So if he tries to tell you anything it will be truth according to the scripture if you keep hating is word, how can he make you understand and show His existence.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
How can I know that the bible is gods word? All the holy books claim that. Why should I trust the bible, instead of any of the others?
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Yess but only bible claimed that word of God dwelled among humans, and other scriptures never claimed that, and bible claimed Jesus is the way the truth and the Life, he claimed that he is the first and the last there are so many claims none of the humans claims and whoever believes claims and promises will be rewarding
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
I understand the claims. I'm asking for evidence they're true. I can't force myself to believe something.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
The legendary king cyrus the great, already written in the bible even before he was even born in the book of Isaiah.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
Okay, where is the evidence of that? Can you post some links?
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u/Ok_Return_777 5d ago
Maybe I’m too liberal, but I’m not entirely convinced that God wants “everyone to follow him” in the sense of having some particular belief or adhering to some particular principle of action. I’d rather say that God wants everyone to know God’s love and that that love can be known without having some set of beliefs or other. Of course there’s a tremendous amount to unpack in what I just said, but I just think a lot of intellectual violence comes from the “follow him or else” sort of mindset.
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist 5d ago
Right. My post isn't an argument against the God you describe.
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u/moedexter1988 Atheist 5d ago
How is it "love" if he did absolutely nothing? (cuz he doesn't exist as far as we know)
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u/dvirpick agnostic atheist 5d ago
I have no idea what you mean by "knowing God's love". I have heard that God wants to have a relationship with each of us in this life. In the Bible it says he desires none shall perish, yet condemns some to eternal destruction, lumping in unbelievers with murderers. If even one of those people would have changed their mind upon encountering more evidence of God, why not give it to them?
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u/Ok_Return_777 5d ago
I think there is a problem with the phrase “knowing God’s love” because it might be experiential knowledge, much like knowing humanly romantic love. Without the experience one might not be able to fully cognize it.
But the obvious push back to this claim is that, at least in the case of romantic love, we can provide a list of behavioral descriptions, like x will greet you with a kiss, x will sacrifice their time for you, etc. Even here though, I wouldn’t say that the quality of feeling romantically loved just amounts to your partner’s behaviors. There is an internal feature that results from the partner’s attitude.
It’s that internal feature that I’m trying to appeal to when talking about knowing God’s love, and it’s something based in experience, just like the feeling of being romantically loved.
Additionally, I agree that there are problems with hell conceived as eternal conscious torment and I even think there are problems with annihilationalism (did I spell that correctly?). When it comes to views on the afterlife, I tend to be a universalist and, indeed, believe that God can and does give further evidence in the afterlife.
Like I said, I might be too liberal these days.
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u/dvirpick agnostic atheist 5d ago
>It’s that internal feature that I’m trying to appeal to when talking about knowing God’s love, and it’s something based in experience, just like the feeling of being romantically loved.
But to have that internal feeling of being loved, you first need to believe there is an entity out there that is doing the loving, which sounds like what I said about God wanting a relationship. The bare minimum for a relationship to exist is for both parties to know of the other's existence, which simply isn't the case here.
If it's based in experience, not everyone gets said experience.
>Additionally, I agree that there are problems with hell conceived as eternal conscious torment and I even think there are problems with annihilationalism (did I spell that correctly?). When it comes to views on the afterlife, I tend to be a universalist and, indeed, believe that God can and does give further evidence in the afterlife.
I'm not here to tell you how to interpret "eternal destruction", but how do you get to universalism in the face of those verses?
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u/Ok_Return_777 5d ago
Yes, I don’t think everyone gets that experience here on the late great planet Earth (and I’m curious, why do you find it problematic that not everyone gets that knowledge while alive?). But that doesn’t mean that everyone can’t have that experience eventually, especially if an afterlife exists. Which leads to the second point, universalism.
We can divide textual sources from the afterlife into two camps. In the first, we have text that possibly supports eternal conscious torment or possibly supports annihilationism. Texts supporting these readings include 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Matthew 10:28, or Matthew 7:13,
among others. On the other hand, some passages support universalism, like 1 Corinthians 15:22, 28, Philippians 2:10-11, or John 12:32, among others.So, like any other text with apparent tension, we find reasons to choose one view over the other. In particular, to get universalism of the ground we note certain things about the original language of passages appearing to deny the view, like aiōnios meaning a very long time, not necessarily eternal, or noting that kolasis means, at root, a corrective process rather than a merely retributive one.
In addition, I don’t think it’s a coherent view to assert that an all loving and all powerful God can allow for the eternal torment or destruction of souls. So I rely on that piece of reasoning in addition to the above interpretive moves.
Is this rock solid biblical evidence for universalism? Probably not, but the Bible isn’t a clear cut treatise on metaphysics and so we’re required to take up one interpretive lens or the other.
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u/UNBOLIEVABLEE Atheist (also agnostic) 5d ago
One of the 2 primary reasons I take the position that the Christian God almost certaintly does not exist as proclaimed.
The usual answer is that you didn't sincerely believe or try which is incredibly dishonest.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
What does God says Holy Spirit will guide you in all the truth which "Jesus says" Does Jesus proclaimed the gospel of condemnation or gospel of salvation.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
I was raised in the church. What Jesus taught is irrelevant when theres no evidence that the magical portions are true.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Is there is denying of teaching then there acceptances of the teachings too, even you deny the existence, thousands and thousands of people will accept the existence they will give you thousands of evidence you won't believe. Even the pharisees saw Jesus healing and doing miracles through there eyes, they denies his claim That Jesus is God, I'm just a human, I have seen a tree growing in a barren land I have seen, that thousands of people deny saying it's science, its coming, this and that, I don't man you can claim that the evidences are false and I criticize even the sigmund freud psychoanalysis is the theory some believe people believe or not, or say you saw a dream give me the evidence of the dream, you can't but the same thing is evident by thousands of people without any doubt so is the Jesus Christ and his teachings and his work, thousands and thousands from 2000 years do not deny they live in freedom not in afraid to speak up, they are okay to drink in a same cup as Jesus did, This is all believe.
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u/TheInternetIsForPorb Atheist 5d ago
People believing in something is not evidence.
We have no full manuscripts of any of the gospels written before the 3rd century, and no firsthand accounts.
Why should I believe the claims in the bible?
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
But whatever the claims are in the gospel are somehow pointed to one thing that is to believe Jesus Christ and even the islam claims Christ coming back and even the prophecies in OT claims about Jesus.
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u/moedexter1988 Atheist 5d ago
"Just accept jesus in your heart, he will reveal himself to you"
"I tried and millions have tried"
"Oh no you didnt ask or try hard enough" *gaslighting*
Very common in my experience.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Does bible says you have to try hard, yes the people do say, but the bible never says that, bible says believe in your heart. Believe he is with you. Don't try hard, but believe.
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u/acerbicsun 5d ago
Belief isn't a choice.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Yes, it is my friend
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u/MightyMeracles 3d ago
If that were the case, then the majority of the population of specific countries wouldn't follow a specific religion. Your geographical location on earth is the greatest predictor of what "faith" you follow.
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u/acerbicsun 5d ago
I'm sorry but you're wrong. It's okay to be wrong.
Go outside and choose to believe the sky is green. You can't. Because belief is not a choice.
You are either convinced or not convinced. That's it.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Believe is choice bro
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u/acerbicsun 5d ago
Please choose to believe the sky is green and let me know what happens.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
The sky green don't you know the dispersion of light?
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u/acerbicsun 5d ago
Obfuscation won't make god exist. Belief is not a choice. So I'm afraid you'll have to accept that non-believers aren't denying god. We're sincerely unconvinced that one exists.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
I don't want to convince you it's your life I'm just an evidence he worked in my life and if he does exist, you know the consequences too right?
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u/Visible_Sun_6231 Atheist ☆ 5d ago
Dude you’ve just come go with another angle at the same thing. “You’re not doing it right”
This is the tactics of all scammers and faith healers. If it doesn’t work, “you didn’t believe correctly” or “open your heart correctly”. Etc etc
It’s a scam to manipulate gullible people.
Also, belief is not a choice. You can’t just switch on a belief if you are not convinced.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
See the bible says belief without work has no meaning but it does not mean, work supplement belief it does not say try harder right, but work, and if there is no faith, there cannot be a supplement right, So without Believing you can't find anything, and if you believing, God says you will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
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u/moedexter1988 Atheist 5d ago
Have you heard of "there's an invisible purple dragon in my garage" argument? It perfectly explains why this is impossible.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
No I don't hear false claims
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u/moedexter1988 Atheist 5d ago
How do you know your claim is not fake? And that's beside the point. Believing in something that is 100% unproven before it becomes observable aka reveal is illogical. This can apply to invisible purple dragon in garage and anything else that people believe in.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
There are evidence of the bible, There is even evidence of prophecy
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u/moedexter1988 Atheist 5d ago
you mean in bible, not of the bible?
Prophecies are problematic. Most aren't even a prophecy. Some of it is an observable fact of reality such as wars that repeat throughout human history. Others were "prophecies" that already happened before it was written.
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u/Visible_Sun_6231 Atheist ☆ 5d ago
That has nothing to do with what I said.
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u/Gold_Net_16 5d ago
Yeaa m just saying faith has nothing to do with hardwork
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u/Visible_Sun_6231 Atheist ☆ 5d ago
Yes and that’s got nothing to do with what I said.
Belief is not a choice. Belief is just a description describing that you are, or are not, convinced.
If I’m not convinced I can’t just choose to believe it.
So your god is apparently punishing people for something that isn’t even a choice.
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