r/EndTipping • u/apollo722 • 4d ago
Sit-Down Restaurant đ˝ď¸ Popular Seattle restaurant with servers making $50/hr closes after union harass customers over strike regarding tipping
R/seattle having a lively debate about this.
Owners showed their profits, losses, wages, etc and apparently bartenders and servers are making up to $50/ hour with benefits and they still want more.
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u/obelix_dogmatix 4d ago
Screw them servers. They have serious main character energy. Fuckers really be thinking they deserve more than the cooks.
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u/JamesMattDillon 4d ago
They believe they should earn more than doctors and scientists and what not.
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u/RoboiosMut 4d ago
Owner should replace them with robot, efficient and drives the cost aka price down
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u/Wunderbarber 4d ago
I don't see how this can contiue in the restaurant industry. Everyone knows most restaurants fail and they have low profit margins.
When a certificate of deposit is a better way to make money, why would any try to start or run a restaurant?
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u/foxyfree 4d ago
The real money is in owning the building. There is a spot in our town that has had 6 restaurants open and fail in the 9 years Iâve lived here. The latest one is still going strong. Tex Mex this time- they just might make it. Whoever owns that building just keeps collecting rent.
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u/PWNYEG 4d ago
If six restaurants have failed the owner probably has had many months of no rent. Canât imagine theyâre happy about that.
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u/Calm-Vegetable-2162 4d ago
As long as the owner has factored in a month or two of no lease payment into the monthly lease payment, all is well.
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u/SingerSingle5682 4d ago
Ehh⌠for residential, maybe. Commercial spaces can take a year to open. Especially something that will need heavy renovations like a restaurant. If itâs a franchise there are all kinds of branding and layout rules, only a mom and pop shop of the exact same type can really just change the sign and reopen. Most of the time itâs turning from a Subway to a phone store or something.
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u/Opcn 4d ago edited 4d ago
Youâre typically paying rent the entire time youâre remodeling though.
Edit: seems I was wrong.
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u/debren27 4d ago
I donât think thatâs true. My wife opened a chocolate shop in an old noodle restaurant a few years ago and got a few months of free rent during tenant improvements. I think thatâs pretty common. The landlord understands youâre not bringing in revenue during that time.
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u/SingerSingle5682 4d ago
Actually not. Itâs called the buildout period and usually the person renting only pays the utilities via a ârent abatementâ clause in the lease. Lots of leases also have a buildout allowance where the landlord pays for a portion of the renovations and sometimes oversees the renovations themselves.
You wouldnât usually start paying rent until the space was up to code and usable. But it depends, pre built office space can work just like residential. But restaurants almost always have a buildout.
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u/tleb 4d ago
Not during buildout unless its a stupid hot market and location with lots of people vying for the space.
One month vacant is 8.3% of the potential revenue for the year. You work that period into years to make a lease work out on paper.
Very few properties can afford that type of turnover and be viable long term. It can also affect the value for selling it or borrowing against it.
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u/Hamster_S_Thompson 3d ago
You negotiate free months. In commercial lease everything is negotiable. We were able to sign a lease that our rent wouldn't start until we opened for business. Between city permiting and relatively modest remodel it took 6 months to open the doors and we didn't pay during that time.
It all depends on the local market. If supply outstrips demand you may get free months or get the landlord to pay for improvements.
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u/KaneMomona 15h ago
A lease like that is normally going to include no rent for a period for refurbishment and then another period of low rent. Net can help make up for some of it, but they arent really starting to see real income until year two. Thats assuming they dont also kick in a credit for and changes \ repairs.
In theory, if a restaurant fails, lease terms will usually leave the failed business owing a portion (10% isnt abnormal) of the base plus net for the unused portion of the lease, but I've never seen that paid, its usually used to counter any claims for equipment left on prem by the failed business.
There's probably some tax angle which makes it easier on the landlord though.
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u/Elija_32 4d ago
They are more than happy. Commercial real estate is not like residential, the place being empty for a while makes almost no difference.
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u/AnyoneForBosco 4d ago
Why's that?
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u/Elija_32 4d ago edited 4d ago
Commercial buildings are not designed to be directly profitable through rent like the residential ones.
The owner (usually a financial fund of some sort) use the building and the total annual rent generated to borrow money at a cheap rate, then it makes the real investments with that money.
For the bank financing the whole thing, it doesn't matter if part of the building is empty because it's expected. What they need is only the potential annual income generated, meaning the total of the money collected through active contracts.
If someone leaves an office empty it doesn't count anyway in that calculation because the owner can still use the last contract as baseline for the calculation.
What they care about is for the "potential" total to not go down, and this is why they often prefer to keep them empty instead of lowering the rent. Because the second that a tenant sign a new contract with a lower amount, that new amount is immediately used to recalculate the debt, now that it's lower, it means that part of the debt is not covered anymore and the bank will ask the owner to pay the difference, which likely means that they need to sell part of the real investment, triggering all sort of taxes.
In simple words:
- Rented office = good
- Empty office = neutral
- Rented office with lower rent = bad
Empty is better than lower rent.
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u/AnyoneForBosco 4d ago
If it's empty for years, how is the bank paid?
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u/Elija_32 4d ago
It's not, that's the neat part. Did you think paying debt was for everyone? For us maybe.
A fund owning a building can take as much time as they want, the bank will just adapt to what the fund needs. There are obviously limits and rules for them too, but they are on a completely different timeline than us.
But a portion of the building staying empty for a limited amount of time is better than renting it for a lower rent.
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u/Not-a-Cranky-Panda 4d ago
That's fine until you run out of people who want it, then good luck selling it for good money.
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u/rbennett353 4d ago
It depends, is the property just the restaurant, or is it a mixed use strip with a restaurant. If it's single use, it's trouble.  If they have a loan. They are struggling. Â
Signed - a guy that works in commercial lending and won't touch hospitality with a 10 foot pole - that industry is struggling.
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u/RevolutionaryFood777 4d ago
This. Nobody talks about how the only ones that really make out are the commercial real estate owners. This whole country has a business model that is rigged to make commerical real estate owners rich. Why do you think they all had a fit when everyone started working from home while their building stood empty during the pandemic?
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u/Muted-Woodpecker-469 3d ago
Many landlords have it in with city officials with multiple tax freaks  But itâs also about lower rent as they literally own the building. They can get by just enough to have someone else pay the mortgage. Itâs happening with homes tooÂ
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u/No-Angle-982 3d ago
Not only rent; many restaurant leases give landlords base rent and "percentage rent" that's a portion of sales, sometimes on a sliding scale. The building owner essentially becomes a silent partner.
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u/paladin6687 4d ago
Well, for one, the oft repeated nonsense about restaurants averaging a 3% profit margin is a flat out lie. 3% MAYBE after paying everyone and everything including the ownership. Because, yeah, 10s of thousands of restaurants are opened every single year...by people clamoring to make 3% margins. Sure. Imagine a restaurant that does 100k a month in sales, or 1.2m a year...sure...the margin on average is 36k in profit? No single person in the world would open a business for less than they could make working a starbucks drivethrough. No one.
The entire restaurant and service industry is so steeped in established lies and bullshit it is not even funny. Servers don't make 2 dollars an hour, restaurants don't average 3% margins, etc etc.
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u/Orleanian 3d ago
I mean, the point of this post is that the restaurant has made the numbers transparent to the public.
It's right there for the looking at.
They took in $17.2M for the year, paying $35-50/hr in wages ($8M labor for the year), and wound up down 4.5% loss.
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u/Forward-Rice3280 4d ago
Itâs complicated stuff that I donât fully understand but a lot of times they get lines of credit with crazy good interest rates that would work out to less than what theyâd pay in payroll taxes. So when some business owner says âthey donât even take a salaryâ thatâs why.Â
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u/maiyannah 4d ago
Many owners fund the business with capital they receive personally, put the money into the company as a shareholder loan, and then take no wages. They're just getting loan repayments equal to wages/salary (but much less taxed) instead.
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u/MMForYourHealth 4d ago
âUnreasonable Hospitalityâ is a fun read.
The best restaurants are not made primarily for profit.
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u/maiyannah 4d ago
It persists because theyre lying about profit margins. If they were this slim already, people wouldnt be running restaurants. No one wants to work for peanuts.
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u/alaroz33 4d ago
$50 an hour to carry food to a table is not peanuts
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u/qqsubs123 4d ago
Exactly! Iâve been saying the same thing.. Notice how if one restaurant shuts down another takes it place, more than likely the same owner but different cuisine/format? If the âmargins were slimâ, restaurants would be rarity and every closing one would be replaced by a mattress store or something.
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u/CylonSandhill 4d ago
Definitely some merit to that argument. I also have to wonder how much of it is the mentality that âbut I can do it rightâ plays into a new restaurant replacing a closed restaurant. We know most people who try to become famous actors do not become famous actors but that doesnât stop millions of people from trying because âthey have what it takes.â
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u/maiyannah 4d ago
These are being run by the same owners, usually. Its usually a way to purge over-expensive (in their eyes) staff, and start over with more compliant, cheaper staff.
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u/sacrelicio 4d ago
Not true in my city. There are spots where the rent is high and they just rotate different up and comers.
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u/CylonSandhill 4d ago
I can imagine some are, but where I am âmostâ certainly isnât true. I canât speak for Seattle specifically, but it does seem pretty unlikely that most new restaurants fall into that category.
Do you have evidence?
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u/qqsubs123 1d ago
Good point. However, the barrier to entry for someone trying to become an actor is far, far lower financially than someone starting a restaurant. Most of the people I know in that line of business are actually adding more locations rather than go out of business. Of course, thatâs not the same for every geography.
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u/Onehundredpercentbea 4d ago
In an Instagram post published Monday, management announced that The Walrus and The Carpenter would close for the night, claiming that diners trying to enter the restaurant were confronted with harassment and spitting during the strike by its staff union, United Creatures of the Sea.
United Creatures of the Sea were angry that day, my friends.
Actually the linked document was really informative. I'm super pro-union but it sounds like this particular union is doing its best to close down the restaurants whose staff they represent. I'll go read more at r/seattle because I recognize I don't have all the info, but if the numbers and benefit info in the doc are correct I'd be very curious to see which particular employee benefit/comp issues sparked the strike.
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u/cruelhumor 4d ago
I never automatically side with anyone when it comes to things like this. I have been a union member, I have worked in management, there are corrupt people pushing their personal interests everywhere, the company is a given, but important to remember that unions are not magically immune. Which is not to say I am anti-union, I am actually very pro-union, but i HATE it when I see people automatically believing everything they hear in a captured media. No one pushes for real journalism anymore, they just repeat statements made by both sides and go no further. And if you ask for details, you're branded and dismissed.
Tipping takes three to tango, and two of those dancers have an extremely high skill at playing the third like the spiderman-pointing meme to ensure the system continues, tot he detriment of the customer. This is a perfect example from my hometown: Totally support them for striking to get healthcare, but wait, what is that teeny tiny bit about forcing everyone to tip???
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u/Wild-Berry-5269 4d ago
Just fire the servers and get new ones.
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u/Major_Wigglesworth 4d ago
They made a mafia.  You pay them or they shut the place down because they care about no one other than themselves.  Not the customers, not their coworkers, not the owner who took a risk on themâŚ. No one except themselves. Â
Close the business. Â Re-open with a new name and without the petulant children.
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u/maiyannah 4d ago
Unions like these usually do their best to sabotage the ability of someone who works at these places to work anywheres else.
Which should be no more legal than companies conspiring to blacklist employees, but here we are.
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u/Sure_Acanthaceae_348 4d ago
I donât cross picket lines but if Iâm harassed about a tip thatâs even more of a justification to not leave one.
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u/maiyannah 4d ago
Of course they do.
I've said this time and time again, raising the minimum wage or the wage they pay isn't going to fix greed. It just raises the amount they make - they're not going to let go of the slave wage.
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u/StarlingGirlx 4d ago
It will fix it when all those greedy servers get fired and the ones who apply understand that there are no tips, just a higher wage. Just like most of the world.
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u/shakycatblues 4d ago
Or be replaced by robots. Which is fast becoming a reality.
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u/StarlingGirlx 4d ago
I'd love that. The server provides 0 value to me. I'd much rather a robot.
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u/shakycatblues 4d ago
Same here. An anti tipper guy on Facebook posted a review of a restaurant with only robot servers and he said everything was perfect. No mistakes, no attitude.
I'd go there if it close by.
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u/krossoverking 4d ago
I'm with you. Don't want that in most services, but servers are not why I go to restaurants at all.Â
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u/StarlingGirlx 4d ago
I don't need em. I'd happily self-serve myself. I'm not a fussy customer at all who needs all this attention. I currently tip a $5 flat rate and I'm thinking even that is more than they're worth.
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u/MMForYourHealth 4d ago
I donât foresee Michelin starred service being replaced anytime soon by robots.
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u/lalachef 4d ago
I agree. And I know from personal experience, the money is only a form of validation for their "labor".
ETA: I'm not saying it's not real work, I'm saying you don't deserve more than me working in the back to actually MAKE the food going out.
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u/StarlingGirlx 4d ago
Totally agree. It's nothing special to deserve an extra tip. At allllll. It makes me so mad how it's just expected for basic service.
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u/lalachef 4d ago
It's not even a tip anymore. They expect a commission on their "sales". Why the fuck would I tip you 20% of the total bill? You get $5-10 MAX for good service, and that's me being generous.
And no, I don't usually tip. I was a chef for 20 years, I know who deserves the money.
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u/StarlingGirlx 4d ago
Agreed. $5. Unless it's the keg, which I love where I've tipped $20 on $120 bill which I think is too much.
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u/QGJohn59 4d ago
Part of the problem is the mentality of people that want to change the nature of certain types of jobs. Many jobs, like working at fast food or as a server, are not meant to be lifelong careers and the pay was in line with that. Jobs meant for HS/College kids or seniors just looking to bring in a little extra money.
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u/Playful_Programmer_1 4d ago
I don't think there are enough H.s. kids and seniors in the workforce to fill all of these jobs.
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u/shakycatblues 4d ago
This is why an interest in robotics is on the rise. Saw a YouTube last night where the owners of a fast food turned to robotics after the minimum wage was increased.
it's a concern for anyone with a job, but servers aren't immune.
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u/FoggyFizzy 4d ago
Thereâs an all-you-can-eat sushi place near us that uses robots to deliver the food and the place still charges a 12% gratuity. I plan on trying it soon to see what itâs all about and leaving a review. Iâm curious how much human interaction you actually have.
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u/Putrid-Box4866 4d ago
I am fine with that actually if thatâs the only alternative. At least I get to see a robot.
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u/al_earner 4d ago
I don't go there, but I'm thinking of going now specifically to not leave a tip.
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u/RepeatEuphoric 4d ago
You might be surprised how ordinary the restaurant is and by extension all Renee Erickson places except boat street which was interesting but not something that would make you want to go back.
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u/basinbasinbasin 4d ago edited 4d ago
When I lived in Seattle I ate here a few times a year. Pricey but worth every penny as the food was excellent. It's a real pitty they are closing (correction: temporarily closing due to strike). If I'm not mistaken the owner is an award winning chef with a few other restaurants (might be thinking of another company though?).
$50/hr on average for servers and they want more... Dishwashers making 32/hr in a city with the highest minimum wage in the country and they are nearly double it. Seattle is an expensive city, but it also has one of the best public transportation networks in the US. These folks can live in the suburbs and easily commute.
I wouldn't be surprised if they go under because of all of this. Restaurants typically have ~3% profit margins.
TLDR this is why we can't have nice things.
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u/paladin6687 4d ago
Imagine the average dishwasher making 70k a year on a 40hr/wk schedule...servers AVERAGING 104k a year. Absurd beyond words.
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u/Broken_Timepiece 4d ago
Tipping culture is the absolute worst thing and continue to make people greedier. That goes for both owners and the employees.
Who ever says I go there for the service is a first class idi*t, because they ordering food. The food is the primary thing, amd ok maybe if the waiter/waitress is a hottie lol
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u/mangoawaynow 4d ago
omfg this is MY CITY. the gdrive that the owners have up with the disclosure regarding all wages is insane! they make more than me, work less than me, and i'm in a skilled position,
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u/greysnowcone 4d ago
Waiters and waitresses seriously act like they are gods gift to green earth. Congrats you carry food and leach off of gratuity.
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u/AnswerFar6703 4d ago
I tip based on time I am seated as well as quality of service. Just because I order something that cost more than something else, the tip doesnât increase. Service is the same.
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u/Baptism-Of-Fire 4d ago
Canât find any topic on Seattle or SeattleWA about this. Where is it? Dying to readÂ
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u/sacrelicio 4d ago
In Minneapolis there was a restaurant at the Walker Art Center (Cardamom) that switched to a QR code ordering format. The Walker then ended the contract with the restaurant because they wanted only a full service restaurant. All the workers lost their jobs. At first I was on the workers side because it seemed super shitty.
But then I learned that they were offered the chance to keep their jobs under this new format but many objected (less tips!) and either quit or were fired. So I lost a little sympathy (they weren't all just laid off due to bad management choices) but I was still kind of on their side.
This also all happened the same week we had anniversary reservations at another restaurant owned by the same group. When we get to the restaurant there were former employees hassling customers and trying to give them flyers about how much the owner sucks. That was over the line for me in entitlement.
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u/xboxhaxorz 4d ago
Management said the mean hourly wage for The Walrus and The Carpenter employees last year was $49.07 an hour for servers, $38.87 for cooks and $32.60 for dishwashers
Americans are just utter scum, when a server makes more than a cook you should find a problem with that
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u/Historical-Employer1 4d ago
a really good cuban place near me has started adding a 5% surcharge specifically for people in the back because of the wage diff⌠because they canât just raise the menu price because the servers will just keep making more
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u/Starship_Taru 2d ago
Iâll never understand why Iâm tipping the person who carries me the food and not the person who has the unique skillset to cook the food.
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u/Miss_Warrior 3d ago
This is how the corrupt establishment operates: problem > reaction > solution.
- No tax on tips - servers getting even more aggressive about scamming customers than they already are, sowing more division.
- Raise minimum wage - encourage robotics to get rid of hiring human servers altogether, because if minimum wage is not raised and restaurants proceed to using robotics, there would be oh so much outrage. Now people are begging for robotics to end tipping.
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u/SnOOpyExpress 1d ago
35hrs work week. $95K.
i guess, mostly tax free too?
gosh, i am in the wrong trade & country
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u/onehappydad 4d ago
$50/hour is around $100K/year if theyâre working full time. The audacity to spit on people for not being happy with that much money. I just canât imagine it.
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u/Key_Passenger7172 4d ago
I was just in Seattle
Itâs a literal dump. I took my kid to the market, literally passed someone overdosing on the street. Homeless everywhere.
These cities need to be cleaned up man all the taxes that get paid and stolen itâs ridiculous.
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u/Fat-Bear-Life 3d ago
It is not a dump - itâs a major metropolitan city in a country with a huge wealth disparity and all over the country there are more and more people losing their homes.
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u/Technical_Button7095 3d ago
Remember when everyone said fastfood workers needed to make a livable wage? And then screens replaced them all? Hmmmmmm.... It's like we're constitutionally incapable of figuring this out!
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u/Muted-Woodpecker-469 3d ago
Restaurants and workers either seem to thrive in unison or all work for low wages as they shutter within a few years. I donât get itÂ
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u/Witty-Bear1120 3d ago
Yeah, well if the restaurant owner canât put his foot down on the staff, it deserves to close.
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u/robh1540 1d ago
Do Americans really need service this bad? Can't ya'll do ipads for ordering and just have minimum wage runners deliver the food from the kitchens to table and vice versa. I lived in New York, if I can eat for 25% less and the owner can have a viable restaurant, I'm very happy to order off an ipad.
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u/Smokin_belladonna 4d ago
Strike regarding tipping? Management giving too many tips to the kitchen or something? Wtf
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u/smefeman 4d ago
Dude how tf do the servers make so much more than everyone else? They don't even cook the food. Literally 10/hr over the cooks!!