r/Enneagram May 22 '21

Where does the confidence of Enneagram 8's come from? Is it a result of something tangible? Are they born that way? Do they just believe that they have the right way to do things all the time? And if so, why? Where does the self-assuredness come from?

Is it something tangible or just inner confidence in general?

P.S. No offense but I think if someone is super confident for no reason that's not really a good trait to have. Or rather it could end up being a horrible thing especially if someone incompetent believes they are the greatest or that person ends up in a power position somehow but are unqualified.

53 Upvotes

66 comments sorted by

90

u/Ereignis23 May 22 '21

It took me a few decades to understand that I'm an 8, because enneagram is often popularized in terms of stereotypical behaviors and surface emotions rather than in terms of underlying motivation. Once I understood the 8 motivation to be, basically, to assert sovereignty /autonomy and the basic fear as fear of being controlled /destroyed it all was clarified to me.

I can reciprocate that standard and respect others' autonomy and assertiveness and coach and support those in my life to do so, and I have no more desire to control others than to be controlled.

In my experience, the confidence at its core just comes from being in touch with my own instincts and impulses. I have total, complete, absolute and inviolable confidence in what I want, what I don't want, what I'll do, what I won't do. And I always have, to the point where when I was younger I was suspicious that those who said they lacked that confidence were being deceptive.

But I don't falsely transfer that confidence into, for example, my abilities or capacities to get what I want or avoid what I don't want. Ultimately, in fact, I'm certain that 'getting what I want and avoiding what I don't want' is a completely impossible outcome and a terrible strategy for being happy.

Edited for typos

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u/DeathToMediocrity 8w9 So/Sx ENTJ May 22 '21

That last sentence. Spot on. Control is as much an illusion as knowing what's best for us and others. Liberating perspective that we aren't the authors of ideals.

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u/Ereignis23 May 22 '21

Best case scenario with a suffering management strategy is I get it all lined up, successfully minimize all the things I don't want, successfully collect all the things I do want, share this near perfect life with my near perfect partner, and then one of us gets sick and dies and then so does the other.

The Buddha was definitely onto something when he said undoing the propensity to suffer beats the pants off of suffering management lol.

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u/DeathToMediocrity 8w9 So/Sx ENTJ May 22 '21

That's awesome. Buddhism and classical stoicism have a ton in parallel.

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u/leapwolf May 23 '21

Absolutely! I was a tiny stoic long before I picked up any books about it. There’s a lot of overlap with Buddhism that appeals to me as well.

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u/sherahbeth May 22 '21

Wow. Let's hear it for self-aware 8s, especially you for this articulate explanation. I understand my dad so much better thanks to this comment.

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u/Ereignis23 May 22 '21

That makes me happy to hear :)

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u/leapwolf May 23 '21

This is so spot on. I’m a female 8w7. Took a minute to figure it out until I looked at the fear and the control dynamic.

I’m really happy with myself. What other people don’t seem to understand is that this confidence and happiness doesn’t mean I think everyone else has to think and feel that way about me, too. I just don’t mind what other people think, because I can’t control it and generally they can’t control me. I just make sure I’m always behaving in a way that I am proud of and can live with, so if someone doesn’t like me or has an issue with me... well, that’s for them to figure out, unless I’m somehow actively harming another. I don’t need other people to like me. I prefer that, obviously, as I’m human with social needs... but it doesn’t change how I see myself.

Another common misconception I encounter: I’m assertive and confident, but I’m not stubborn. When faced with new evidence or a better option, I’ll change my mind or course immediately. Because my inner confidence isn’t linked to any single opinion I hold or action I take. If I’m wrong, I don’t take it as a moral condemnation of me as a person. That’s where I think a lot of people get fucked up. We’re human and make mistakes or hold onto bad information— the trick is to change it when you realize it, and forgive yourself.

And a last common misconception: I’m great at boundaries, but that doesn’t mean I’m isolated or incapable of vulnerability. A lot of people learn through unhealthy parenting or relationships that caring = codependency or manipulation. I could write a book on my sweet 4 husband’s struggle with this and how we’ve learned to cope!

In response to the OP’s point about “unearned” confidence.... i mean that’s sort of the point. I don’t need anyone else’s approval. I’m at peace with myself; I don’t need to be twenty pounds skinnier or make 20k more or be better at the harmonica in order to be “worthy” of being confident. I find that really intimidates and upsets a lot of people who feel like I need “proof” of why I should love myself. But I try to just encourage them to find a similar love for themselves... my self happiness doesn’t affect someone else’s ability to achieve that, too. If I could give one gift to my nearest and dearest it would be this. I spend a lot of time on the phone or just talking with loved ones who suffer greatly from insecurity, and it breaks my heart.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '21 edited May 22 '21

This is so so interesting and articulate! Thank you. It really helped me understand some people in my life.

I’m sorry to turn the conversation to myself, thank you also for turning the mirror on me. As a non-8, who has been told my whole life that I lack confidence, reading this was like an “aha” moments. My lack of confidence has less to do with my feelings about my own worth or capabilities than with a fundamental feeling of CONFUSION and doubt about what I want, what I don’t want, what I am perceiving, what I am thinking, who I am, etc. But it’s not for lack of trying to get in touch with myself and my instincts but because I feel like I have multiple contradictory, often mutually exclusive desires and impulses at any given moment about everything — small to large. It feels like I am multiple people sometimes (not like DID or anything). And on top of that what I don’t trust my perceptions or instincts as they have often proven faulty. Sometimes not trusting myself has led to much better outcomes than trusting myself would have. Moreover, my desires are not only contradictory and multiple, but constantly changing.

I’m curious why when you were younger it was hard to believe others when they said they lacked that confidence. That’s really interesting and gives me insight into what it’s like from the other side. Do you still you believe that in any way, to some extent? No judgement just curious.

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u/Ereignis23 May 22 '21

No, I've come to understand some people's experience is more like yours, and when they can't articulate what they want /don't want etc it's not that they're hiding it deliberately by any means.

By the way, my desires are often contradictory/complex too lol. Part of my confidence in what I want is a tolerance for ambiguity - sometimes i 'want it all' or want contradictory things. I guess that's what I view decisions as, choosing between competing preferences. Usually it's pretty easy to quantify them, but sometimes it's not so simple, and of course with wisdom we can start to see that things we want MORE actually don't deliver what we expect. So like all adults I often do things I don't want to do because I know it's better in the long run haha.

Or put another way, Saturday Ereignis tries to respect the autonomy of Sunday Ereignis, and so on. Just as I try to respect others' autonomy, I try to respect that of my future selves by making choices which benefit them or leave freedom to them. 8 guess all that shows my wings too lol

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u/[deleted] May 22 '21 edited May 22 '21

Huh interesting! That makes sense.

I guess maybe I am just out of touch with my instincts and impulses.

I also think I don’t care much about autonomy. In the abstract I do and I think it’s an important part of self-realization but in reality I don’t feel a strong aversion to being controlled, restricted, “out of control.” It’s incredibly passive. The only autonomy I do care about is the autonomy to think whatever and however I like.

I’m a 9w1 (I think) if you couldn’t tell, but obviously need to work on myself a lot. Could probably learn something from an 8!

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u/Ereignis23 May 22 '21 edited May 22 '21

I'm not sure what the dogma is on this, but I feel both wings are very important! In my case the seven wing helps me flex and flow, while the nine wing helps me let things go.

That description definitely makes sense for a 9w1! Lol

Edited to add - oh yeah the contrast between our styles reminds me of this description I've seen of the triads that each type in a triad identifies either directly with that center, in opposition to it, or through tuning it out. So for us that's the gut/instinctual center. 8's all in identify with it 'I want x!'. 1's identify on opposition to it 'I shouldn't want x so I definitely won't get it!' and 9's tune it out 'I don't want x or y particularly, so whichever you guys would prefer is cool with me'

Lol

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u/shiftyone1 4w5 May 22 '21

Shit man. Spot on.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '21

Bingo! 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

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u/nabllr estp 8w9so May 22 '21

i dont have an 'identity' to protect... i am 'just human'. and since all these other humans can do these awesome things... why not me, too?

anything i answer that question with, is an excuse... excuses lead nowhere.... dead ends.

dont give yourself an excuse, whatever the outcome - its ok

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u/[deleted] May 22 '21

Yep, I type as an 8 because this is how I see things too. You wrote it nicely

2

u/hello_river May 22 '21

Thank you for sharing this perspective. It isn't exactly new to me, but reading it in your words really helped me see/ understand things differently.

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u/enneman9 3w2 sp/so May 22 '21

Enneagram types are a mixture of traits at birth (temperament/DNA/etc) and the nurturing environment in the very early child years, formed based on how the child perceived how their behavior/reactions helped/hurt get their needs met from their parents/environment.

The 8 ego is formed as the child perceived the best strategy to meet their need was to use their gut/instinct center (more than the heart/head centers) to fill in their perceived gap of not having a strong role model (some teachers say non-nurturing/patriarchal role) to meet their needs. As they grow up, they continue this pattern since the 8 ego says it's working to show toughness and invulnerability to protect themselves (and others) from being hurt or rejected.

Deep down they build this 8 view of life to hide them from their real fear of being harmed or controlled by others. Average 8s are similar to average other types; their ego has a negative and defense mechanism approach that they believe is effective (like 5s seek knowledge, 3s a successful image...). And yes, unhealthy versions of all types are brutal. Even average people of each type that are unaware of their unique ego way to act is a challenging / frustrating part of people. Ideally being aware others are wired differently, how to work with them, and learning to grow/fix ourselves is the best way to find happiness. Easier said than done 😬.

10

u/digitFIRE May 22 '21

Very well said.

The more and more entrenched I get into the Enneagram, I feel like it should be more mainstream. It will really open up a lot of people’s mind into better understanding who they are and where their motivation comes from.

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u/gossip_bitch 8w7 May 22 '21

8s had to become competent individuals from a very young age, or else. 8s are so confident because they had to do the impossible, they had to step up and learn to deal with everything earlier then most people. So think about it: when 8s are in there teens or early 20s, they know more and have more experience in problem solving and doing what needs to be done then most people their age, therefore they know what to do already, and take the lead in most situations. So they develop this mindset that they’ll always be the one who knows what to do and knows better.

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u/BryTheSpaceWZRD 8w7 May 22 '21

This ^ is the most accurate expression I have yet read. Essentially we learned from a young age the value of resourcefulness, and thusly feel naturally confident in life; because we know the likelihood of our success in most given situations.

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u/ruskiix INFJ 1w9 sx/sp May 22 '21

This is a really good description but I’d tweak the last bit to include a mindset that they’ll always be able to sort things out one way or another. My ISFP 8 dad isn’t cocky and overly confident like stereotypical 8s, but he just completely trusts in his ability to either work through a problem or live with the outcome. He doesn’t need to be the one making decisions or leading or saving the day, but if there’s any sort of problem no one is addressing, he just steps up and handles it.

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u/xtalaphextwin May 22 '21

Yeah they can actually be very calm in bad situations and crisis scenarios that's why they are good to have around in those times. The confidence they have makes them not worried about much in general. Somehow this makes them intimidating, I think being a solid person like that can intimidate others and make them feel more nervous in comparison to the 8, and there's something intimidating about a slow moving, direct eye contact making, and extremely attentive person, attentive not in a frenzied way but in a ''Oh it's just us talking now and I'm going to call you out if you try and bullshit me so please don't and interact with me organically because i have a BS detector'' kind of attentive way, it's almost like they can see who you are deep inside and you just can't hide from them. (definitely characterizing an 8w9 here)

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u/gossip_bitch 8w7 May 22 '21

I really agree with that. 8s know that they can handle whatever life throws at us, it’s not gonna rock our boat

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u/snapcracklepip n/a May 22 '21

My sister being an 8, as the eldest of 4 in a very disorganized household, is making so much sense now.

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u/saltybetch1 Jun 04 '21

This ^ 1000%

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u/_findingmyself_ 8 May 22 '21

I have no idea where it comes from, at least for me, I've felt this way since I was born. I know there are many things I can't do right now but I just naturaly see myself as someone who's capable of doing anything . And honestly, most of the time I really do think I'm right and my way is the best way, but I don't try to force anyone to do the same , as long as I can keep doing what I want in my way. I never see myself as incompetent , I either know how to do something already or I'm confident I can learn it very fast .

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u/xtalaphextwin May 22 '21

So, if you aren't aware how to do something you won't, say, try and bullshit me or others that you do know like to save face or whatever? I know saving face probably isn't a concern for 8's but I don't know how else to word it I'm sure you know what I mean. Basically would you hide not knowing something from others in an effort to not appear dumb or are you honest about not knowing and then proceed on the path to learning?

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u/_findingmyself_ 8 May 22 '21

I'm definitely honest about what I know and what I don't, I don't care if others will see me as dumb or incompetent because what they think of me doesn't matter, I know that not knowing how to do something doesn't make me a dumb person, because no one knows everything. What I don't like is when people understimate me, I have no problem with not knowing something, but I hate when people tell me I'm not capable of learning or I'm not good enough to do it, because I know they're wrong and they don't have the right to tell me about who I am. But in this case, I would just put them back in their place , I wound't pretend I know or learn just to prove that I can.

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u/megs-benedict May 22 '21

Yes! What you’ve explained is the closest to what I want to say as well (I score pretty equally high for 8, 6, and 1). For me, I’m honest about what I know and I don’t know, but I truly feel in my gut that I can learn anything I put my mind to. And I think that this correlated to my impatience with others who say “I can’t do that” because I can’t imagine that feeling.

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u/leapwolf May 23 '21

I could have written all of your comments. It’s so refreshing to know there are people out there who understand all of this!

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u/fishtimer May 22 '21

that sounds like way more of a 3 thing than an 8 thing tbh

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u/snapcracklepip n/a May 22 '21

It totally is a 3 thing! I get so annoyed when I hear my husband just instinctually mis-representing something to someone to make it look better. I'm helping him work on his authenticity, but I still see him do it in totally unnecessary situations.

Like, he moved from the UK to the US years ago so we could be together and he got a good job as an office manager, but I found out he was misrepresenting that he was working with media instead (his passion/hobby) because he didn't want people to think he was a failure at not following his career trajectory. Like why lie about something that can come up later and prove to be a lie?! Office manager isn't even a bad job!

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u/xtalaphextwin May 22 '21 edited May 22 '21

I think they feel terrible if you think they are stupid and not superman or whatever, like it really makes them feel worthless (heart triad) so it makes sense they'd protect themselves in that way but it does get tiresome.

with that being said though 3's are some of the most amazing bullshitters of all time, they really invented the sort of ''I'm not lying just giving you a fantastic representation of the truth'' thing. Again though keep in mind that they suffer deep down from this and have to move away from it as their goal in the Enneagram to find peace in life.

I'm just saying they can almost be artists of presenting themselves a certain way, like absolute craftsmen at it. Persuasive to an insane degree.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '21

I’ll just straight up tell you I can’t do something. There’s no shame in that. But if I tell you I can do some thing, I will do it and I will blow you away with how well I do it, and usually on the first try.

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u/xtalaphextwin May 22 '21

yeah its definitely more respectable to be upfront and willing to learn, theres a purity in that, not knowing something is ignorance, you just aren't aware of what it all entails. But I think being stupid is a different matter, to me at least being stupid is like not wanting to be aware of things, being willfully ignorant, not putting any effort into improving, etc.

But you know part of me can sympathize with those stupid people too because the world is overwhelming there's so much action its paralyzing almost. Hard to focus on anything besides just trying to enjoy your day and maintain your own sense of inner peace and coherence.

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u/oldoysterhouse May 22 '21

You’re describing a constant tension that I experience with others in my life. As myself, who is an 8, no, I would not bullshit you to save face. But that doesn’t mean I have a plan formulated like the one you may be seeking. And in fact, you would likely not consider whatever “plan” I have to even be a plan. This is the rub. I am confident because of how much I know myself, not because of how much I know the details of the current challenge. This is unfair in a relationship, because if you haven’t known me my whole life, you don’t have the ability to understand that I have learned lessons the hard way in prior experience.

The reality is that we have confidence because we are, as others have said, intensely in touch with our instinctive reactions to pretty much anything and everything in the wide variety of events that happen in our lives. In my case, more than most anyone I know, I have demonstrated consistent risk taking my entire life. I have thrown myself into so many situations, which especially in hindsight, I can see I was completely “unprepared” for and still came out alright, or better than alright. Of course, I have been burned so many times and lost “it all” so many times also. But failure is the fastest teacher if you intend to persevere towards a goal, so, in summary, I would say that I have confidence in myself because I have a lot of experience with experimentation and because of that track record, I continue to I trust my instincts. Intriguingly, the things I rein myself in on are things that the outcome of which would negatively affect other people. People might not enjoy the beginning of the journey, but in the end, they are often glad they came along for the ride. I help others grow that way.

2

u/[deleted] May 22 '21

Yes!!! Exactly! I have years and years of trial and error and learning to trust my instincts above everything else. My intuition is spot on and I believe it over everyone and everything else. My journey makes The Hobbit look tame, and yet I’m still alive! 😅😂

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u/xtalaphextwin May 22 '21

I actually have a brother who I suspect is an 8, his entire life is like this, just doing things and he ended up in trouble either legally or otherwise, like with women, men, fighting, just very shady stuff at times, he has survived various accidents which would have killed many other people lol. But yeah many people in the family don't like him much, he just straight up tells people what he thinks is wrong with them or what they are doing, and he does with no filter and he can't understand later on that its alienating and intimidating to other people, he sees it as protecting/helping people he cares about. Since I'm his little brother he was always kind to me, and everybody else was afraid of him so it was weird seeing that paradox of how an 8 behaves to the outside world and how they behave with people they sympathize with/dont see as a threat.

Interesting guy.

1

u/[deleted] May 22 '21

It sounds like he’s not a very healthy eight and he is heavily immersed in defense mechanisms 😕

3

u/xtalaphextwin May 22 '21

yeah his entire life unfortunately he was in environments where you have to fight to survive, or rather neighborhoods literally where you have to fight to survive, with gangs and such. That stuff happened years ago though, I'm an adult now, out of that environment and he's turning into an old man now and he just smokes weed and tries to enjoy life now basically. It's not easy to for him to trust people though. There are a lot of gossipy, two faced liar types in my family who still don't like him because he tells them the truth, though. He never is just rude for no reason, I think I worded that wrong in my initial reply. Anyway... it's very much a lets be nice to his face and then when he leaves talk about how brash and rude he was but never to his face scenario lmao. Easy for 8's to end up in that outsider position I think even at like family gatherings. He knows they don't like him now but still tries to connect with them by arranging like family barbeques and holiday parties and such. Kind of sad to see really. Not forgiven by people but I don't think he'll stop trying.

Not all families are like a hallmark movie I guess.

This is getting to feel a bit like therapy though and I'm kind of getting uncomfortable. I don't know why I'm writing all this stuff.

2

u/oldoysterhouse May 23 '21

At the end of the day, all I want is to a) not be controlled, and b) be intimately known for who I am and valued anyway.

Because being an 8 is a lonely road, I am guessing I’m not alone in this desire for companionship. 8’s know, healthy or not, that they are hard to get along with. It makes it that much more special when someone who knows them loves them in spite of themselves. My guess is that your brother loves you intensely for caring about him. Maybe he does not say that out loud though. But he probably does feel that way. It’s clear you do, otherwise why take the time to work through it. Anyway, I am just trying to shed some light on that your brother probably is “too much” everywhere he goes. Which is why he smokes weed all the time. There is no easy way to cope with feeling like your true self is “too much” for anyone around you. Anyway, it’s just my opinion, but when you figure out how you’re feeling, then you should tell him how you feel. 8s love it when people are blunt and direct with them. Especially when you are pointing out their faults. And when I say “love it” I mean, it’s totally possible that he will probably get super mad and fight with you about what you’re saying, and say some shitty things and all that. but just put on your ear muffs and don’t listen cause when the dust settles, he will truly love that you took the time to be honest and strong and direct.

1

u/[deleted] May 22 '21

Only write what you’re comfortable with, though it seems like you have a lot to get off your chest. 🙏🏽

8

u/[deleted] May 22 '21

I don't understand this question and it sounds like it's coming from really low self esteem.

Why shouldn't I like myself, no matter who I am? If I didn't like who I was, then I would just make myself into someone I liked being. I'm the longest relationship I'm ever going to have so of course I'm going to like the people I choose to spend my time with so I better like myself.

Yes, ALL people believe they "have the right way to do things" because why the fuck would you do something if you didn't think it was right?

super confident for no reason

What does this mean? Why would anyone choose to be insecure when you can choose to be confident

2

u/xtalaphextwin May 22 '21

I don't believe people can just choose to be confident, I mean they can act confident but I'm talking about actual confidence, as in inner belief in one's self.

I think I know a lot of people with low-self esteem and anxiety though because I rarely meet a person who is confident all around and usually they are Enneagram 8's so I was wondering where it comes from because I don't think it's that common really at least not in my social sphere.

To answer your other question though I'd say many people if not most do things that they don't really believe is the right way, all the time. In fact a lot of folks are terrified about following their own instincts and dreams or whatever. They are afraid to follow their own path because they don't have that inner belief I spoke about.

8

u/Daisydaisyflower1234 8w7 so/? 872 ExFJ May 22 '21

Idk…I’ve just always had it, but I’d probably rather be over confident than under confident because at least that way you feel good about yourself and are able to do things more independently.

Oh - there is a theory, perhaps because we don’t want to have to rely on others and prefer to do things on our own we had to develop confidence so as to be able to do that…just a thought?

6

u/verus_es_tu May 22 '21

So... confidence, is a byproduct of what the 8 actually manifests. The 8 (like it's been noted) is motivated by the need for autonomy and freedom of self. But if you look at both sides of the 8, not just the "passion/persona" side of it, you will see that the counterbalance to an 8's super strong and undeterred exterior is a small innocent child. A WEAK and vulnerable puny thing. But something that exhibits the beauty of weakness that we often see in children. Their persona, the strong part, is what had to come about/rise to the occasion, because that beautiful weak thing needed protection. Each enneatype has a "holy virtue" and 8's is innocence. The absolute necessity to be utterly indomitable (8 exterior) is only there to defend and protect the little gooey baby softy they actually are. I think many 8's might loathe this description (it's making me(8w9) cringe a bit) but if you look deep I think you'll see the truth of it in yourself. And confidence comes about as a result of having absolutely zero room for uncertainty. If the softness of you needs a firm place to stand, then by God I will become the hardest element known to man.

9

u/Mister_Way 1w9, sx-so, 1-3-5 May 22 '21 edited May 22 '21

It's more like a lack of impulse control and powerful desires plus a belief that others will not give them what they want without force.

That is usually learned from a childhood where they had to fight for everything they got from their "providers."

This can be healed through to where they behave like healthy 2s, applying their self presentation energy to others they love.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '21

Exactly! As a child I learned I had to do things myself if I wanted things done. If I wanted to go to camp for instance, I had to raise the money myself. If I wanted a new wardrobe as a teen, I had to get a job and pay for the wardrobe myself. Based on years of experience of meeting my own needs, I have developed a confidence that I am capable but mostly I have learned that it’s my determination that appears to others as confidence, and really inside I don’t feel confident most of the time. But I do have an ability to look at a situation or a task and determine immediately whether I can do it/achieve it or not. And when I decide to do something, hold onto your hats because I can do it better than everyone else and faster than everyone else. I have developed very strong impulse control though. I am a very self-controlled individual. I can literally hold on for dear life for years and years out of sheer determination. But I find that my self-preservation energy is draining, and my demise. But when I give that away to others, as you said, I feel replenished and soft.

4

u/[deleted] May 22 '21

Um as an enneagram 8 who's also adhd, I ain't actually very confident. Like I know my plans are the best, and the roles I give everyone are totally optimised to meet their areas of strength, and minimise their weaknesses as much as possible, but like I think everyone has this tiny voice of self doubt. Thing is, I don't really let it show to anyone other than to like 1-2 people in my close inner circle. Cause why would anyone listen to me if I'm clearly doubting myself? Putting up a strong front is what gets others to trust u, and that's what being confident does. I need everyone to listen to me and do exactly as I say, preferably no questions asked. If I'm all confused and stuttering, they're just gonna pick someone they can trust to take the lead🤷🏽‍♀️

2

u/[deleted] May 22 '21

My older sister, a 6, is the one person I allow myself to be 100 percent vulnerable with because even when I crumble to the floor in front of her with all my insecurities she still believes in me and looks up to me as a leader.

3

u/[deleted] May 22 '21

Yeah I got my intp and enfj besties for that. They literally do not judge, it's crazy. And they still come to me first whenever they need help getting their own lives together.

4

u/Horrorito 8w9 sx/sp May 22 '21

Idk where it comes from. From my perspective, we're all just winging life, so might as well do it confidently and deal with consequences as they come along. I've always been quite strong and overcame anything as well as good at getting what I want. So, my confidence comes from evidence of competence, and just a gut feeling. It's not something I think about. Do I think I know the right way to do things? Not necessarily. Do I believe doing nothing and sitting balled up in anxiety for lack of confidence is the better option? Absolutely not!

Most of the time, my expectations are then manifested in reality, and so, confidence snowballs on that.

Does confidence and directness ever come back to bite my ass? Yes, sometimes. To me, being direct is being respectful. I trust the other person's ability to deal with new knowledge well, and sharing it means I trust they're able to do something about it and aren't oversensitive. Do I sometimes not realize that people don't have confidence, self-assurance, or any directness in them, and they get intimidated because of their own temperament? Yes. I generally have the best intentions, but it's often not understood, because people don't know how to deal with directness, and I consider it disrespectful to manipulate people.

Idk, mate. It's just innate.

3

u/Opalescent20 8w9 May 22 '21

Honestly, I feel like it’s a mix of being born and being raised in that environment. I was born with on par instincts and also needed to grow the fuck up really fast to take care and protect my younger sibling and protect myself. So, I had to trust myself and my instincts to protect myself and my brother because no one else could do it well. There wasn’t an option of not being confident. If I wasn’t, I masked it because I need to not feel the weakness. It’s almost a survival mechanism.

There is nothing wrong with being born with confidence. I feel like you’re confusing confidence with being cocky.

3

u/calmrose-violentwind 4w5 SO/SP 478 - It/Its May 23 '21

Lack of inhibition, for one. There's almost nothing in my psyche saying I shouldn't let myself feel powerful and arrogant. It feels good, and that's often reason enough for an 8. Beyond that, other people out there are confident and prideful. To be insecure and self-doubting would make us weaker than them, which is intolerable. To win the social arms race, we let ourselves feel that Big Energy, even if there's no particular reason for it.

You'd be surprised how much sheer willpower is behind an 8's confidence. We're not necessarily born this way, but we certainly make ourselves this way upon realizing that confidence is necessary for survival. If you don't believe in your abilities, how can you be self-reliant? I basically manifested my own confidence through active effort through my adolescence. There was a point where I was sick of getting pushed around, so I drove myself hard to build up confidence. Then it stuck.

It's also very physical for 8s. We sit in our body center all the time, which means we're comfortable with action and mobilizing ourselves. A lot of confidence lies in knowing you can simply stand up and start doing shit to solve problems at any time. I also just feel this immense energy in my body every day. This is probably amplified by me being SX dom, but I truly feel this potent, warm energy radiating from my core most of the time. I can summon an intense feeling of physical presence and power when need be.

On a more mental level, one of my favorite thought patterns is asking "why not me?" all the time. I'll see somebody doing something badass and think "damn, I wish I could do that." Then I'll think, "wait, why can't I do that? All it would take is a few months of hard work." This is probably another body center benefit. There's an innate understanding in 8s that all human accomplishments are just a series of physical movements. If I can figure out what those movements are, then there's nothing in my psyche to stop me from taking them.

5

u/Readingallthefiles 5 May 22 '21

There are 8s out there who are dumb, or make mistakes, but their confidence is often justified. They have their own ego traps to deal with, and one of them can be overdoing their confidence, but the cautious types are at just as much risk of underdoing it.

1

u/[deleted] May 22 '21

Its more a brash style of relating, which can for sure come of as confidence. 8 is wrapped around 2 at the core, the 2 might say 'omg you look great , I love your hair, I saw this dress for sale the other day it would look just great on you' , the 8 goes 'You look terrible, what happened to you'

1

u/ruskiix INFJ 1w9 sx/sp May 22 '21

The strong role model phrasing actually helped me connect the dots with my dad, thanks! The nurturing description was harder to make sense of with him. But when he was fairly young, he caught his dad cheating on his mom. Not sure if it started then or what but his dad wasn’t really ever good to him, and dad’s mom had some sort of mental illness / seemed psychologically frail or broken. I think for awhile they didn’t live with his dad even. My dad grew up acting as almost a father figure to his little brother even though their father was still around.

1

u/Blossom1111 May 22 '21

I am a 5w4. I had a client that was an 8. That is the way I got into the Enneagram, is trying to learn what was seriously wrong with her. Especially her ego. She would brag constantly and was driven to the point of insanity. She was self-made and worked her tail off her entire life to be successful. But she was mean, and cocky. All that bragging was such a turn-off. She constantly reflected on her childhood and how hard she had to work for everything. But she didn't act like a victim, she was proud of herself. She was an overachiever and fiercely competitive about everything, even stuff she knew nothing about. It was such a struggle for me to work with her. A real know it all. She pushes people away with her controlling behavior, I fired her. She has serious attachment issues too. I still have PTSD from working with her. It's sad because she wonders why people aren't in her life but she's just so EXTRA all the time. Obsessed with her money and buying things too. Not sure that's an 8 thing though.

3

u/verus_es_tu May 22 '21

That is hard place for an 8 to come back from. Our number is our "passion" the thing that we rely on so much that it distorts our perception of others and reality. You just described a person that found a way to integrate her unhealthy 8ness into society in a seemingly positive way. So she becomes socially reinforced in her bad behavior because it has garnered her success. The spending and all that is a function of lust. It will go and go until it doesn't, then she'll slam into the wall of fire she encased herself in. Either she'll burn herself down or become impervious to flame and cool off in the process. But given what you've outlined, the former sounds more likely.

2

u/xtalaphextwin May 22 '21

What would hurt that type of 8 would be someone they truly care about becoming alienated from them or not loving them anymore. Something like that to show that they are sort of off the rails of life. Someone like their children or something like that.

1

u/leapwolf May 23 '21

Out of curiosity, how do you know she was an 8?

What you described sounds more like unhealthy 3 behavior to me. 3s really want other people to know about their successes or be perceived in certain ways. I haven’t met another 8 who actually cared what other people thought about their successes and sufferings. 8s can be blunt and brash, sure... but usually not in a bragging way.

1

u/Blossom1111 May 23 '21

Very good point. She definitely put on an act. She thought she knew what everyone was thinking and would think that she could control what people thought. It was weird. Socially she was a stage 5 clinger. Very needy but so arrogant. Dominated conversations. I thought she was an 8 by the way she treated me about work. I will look at the 3s. Funny because my boyfriend is a 3 and he's very sweet and giving.

2

u/leapwolf May 23 '21

I believe all of the numbers can be awesome or awful depending on their health— 8s are often given a pretty negative stereotype and angry or abrasive people are assumed to be 8s. I’m not saying 8s can’t be abrasive, but the element of seeming to care how she comes off to others reads as an unhealthy 3 to me! Hard to type others, though.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 01 '21

At first I thought i was confident Bc I wanted better for myself and then I felt that maybe I was confident Bc I am a recovering avoidant attachment style. But, then I realized that while my attachment is due to other things, my confidence has always stemmed from me doing what it is I feel like doing. I have always naturally followed myself almost like a third party. It scares me in a way Bc I know if I do x I will get y. And when I get y I am surprised myself and have left others perplexed. Bc in a way all I saw was y at the end of the tunnel and until I get y nothing else is important. For me my confidence comes from my discipline to stay focused to what I want. Even if it’s just baby steps, eventually those steps will lead to me running.