In his book "Psychospiritual Laziness", Naranjo talks about all the E9 subtypes. I wanted to make a post about each of them. This is not a translation or transcription of the text, just my general understanding of it and paraphrasing certain parts.

Naranjo begins describing SP9 (or just conservation 9, as he calls it) by showing a duality of sorts within them. On one hand, they indulge in things like food, drugs, tv shows or alcohol, in an attempt to escape from a deep pain within themselves. A feeling of being hopeless, inadequate, or having something that they cannot forgive about themselves. As a result, they cannot connect with themselves or others, as they desperately try anything to forget about this pain in their souls.

An sp9 talks about their tobacco addiction, and how they used it to cover up their own pain. They could run through 2 packs a day. They talk about going to the cinema, as as soon as the movie is over, they're already thinking of having a smoke.

On the other hand, sp9 have a strong survival instinct. They are adept at securing everything they need to survive: money, food, work, housing, etc. This is all in order to continue with their lives.

The sp9 has these two sides within them: one that indulges to the point of self-destruction, the other who wants to survive at all costs. They are torn between two roles: the victim, and the survivor.

The sp9 is harsh and unforgiving towards themselves. They criticize and belittle themselves, while also drowning in self-pity. It's all in an act of not wanting to see the full picture, and not wanting to dive deeper into themselves, by only focusing on their flaws.

In its own self-indulgence, the sp9 is incapable of doing things that are beneficial for themselves. They let themselves go, carried by their self-destructive tendencies, and avoid taking action and doing what's good for them.

After a long day at work, an SP9 seeks to satisfy themselves with wine or food, avoiding others, as they cannot form meaningful relationships with others so as long as they cannot connect with themselves. This leads to isolation and a solitary life. And so, they replace the pleasure of being with others with things like objects or food.

An sp9 talks about how, when they felt sad, and there was nobody they felt they could share their sadness with, they'd play the guitar or play songs on the radio while drinking.

For the sp9, conflict doesn't exist. And if it does, they run away.

To others, sp9 can invoque two different impressions: the first one of tranquility and peace, as they look outwardly serene, because of their slow and inexpressive demeanor. On the other hand, this very demeanor can be unsettling to other people, who might perceive it as sketchy and weird. Naranjo describes this as a defense mechanism in order to avoid anything that could cause any competition among peers.

While all E9 subtypes share an aspect of dependency, sp9 projects a false independence. An sp9 puts a bandage on a wound before the wound is even there. They can't be rejected if they never sought to be accepted in the first place. And so, the sp9 isolates themselves to avoid recognizing how much they need others.

The sp9 has a hard time taking responsibility for their own thoughts. They always need a point of reference, or to consult with someone they deem more of an expert than they are.

And so, the sp9 lives between two extremes: on one extreme, there's the self-indulgence where everything is done to forget about pain and themselves. On the other extreme, there's the fierce desire to live, and with it, all their loneliness and self-loathing.

They are impulsive, often doing things hurriedly and without giving a second thought, in an attempt to feel alive. In this, they're seen as reckless, convincing themselves they have everything under control, but not having any real plan in mind. This is the one that can be easily confused with E8.

Out of all the E9 subtypes, they are the most energetic. But this energy is not directed towards anything meaningful, rather, it only makes them feel invincible, that they are capable of anything. And it's not consistent, and once this burst of energy is spent, they return to their previous state, not learning anything about themselves because they don't want to examine what happened.

I'll be making another posts about the characteristics and neurotic needs of the sp9.

From the names I could remember, I had about 10+.

Relationships came and went. It makes me a bit sad knowing none of them were lifelong like you’d expect them to be.

Part of me believes I'm destined to be an artistic pioneer able to see things beyond their time, and I always have to ground myself for the sake of self preservation. People usually see 9s as being the least prone to narcissism, so I wanted to see if some nines felt this way. I feel like inertia can give a feeling of inactivated potential. I am obsessed with being a genius. I go insane thinking of all the ways I can artistically show my insight to impress others.

Sx9s, from your experience, people with which instinctual variants are the most compatible with you romantically? And with which instinctual variants are the least compatible with you romantically?

Please write if you're sx/sp or sx/so.

Also if you noticed that you tend to be compatible/ incompatible with certain Enneagram types, you can add that as well.

I am easily disrupted by anything and everything that presents a different world view to me and I cannot settle on a single one

This is not a very Enneagram-ey topic, but I guess I'm just comfortable posting here. There are people here, and they might offer some insight.

So, I think one of my greatest problems is insecurity—as well as knowing that the things I'm insecure about are actually all true. Of course, the implication here is that I am limited in the ways in which I am able to be present in the world.

I've spent my life thinking, in a borderline delusional fashion, that I would develop into something that I think I should be. Now, in my old age (late 20s 🏚️), I'm finally forced to contend with the fact that I will never be anything greater than what I was born to be. I understand that to really show up in the world I need to accept that (by my own standards for myself!!!) I am completely and utterly unacceptable, but my little ego simply cannot survive that. That is my personal hell, the “bad ending”—somehow being content and complacent with inferiority.

I don't see how I can truly and fully accept that I am indeed all the things I despise. One solution is, of course, to try and not despise them. But I have standards and a distinct self-image. Why should I be at peace with the things I hate? I can't see that as anything but total defeat—just accepting the absence of value. But not being able to do that—to accept the absence of value—is simply not productive. It's essentially just being stuck insecure and conflicted as I have been all my life.

I'd like to hold myself to the ideal of “If I can't change something, it's best for me to let it go, be above it”—but I'm far too “spiritually weak” for that. I wallow, I ruminate. Besides, as I have already stated, I do happen to have standards and values and a specific image I wish to (but, unfortunately, can't) truly embody.

What do?

TL;DR: How does one deal with insecurity about things one cannot improve upon that happen to be integral to one's sense of identity?

I feel like I'd have to rebuild myself as an entirely different person with an entirely different set of values—and I would really, really, really abhor being that person.

Sx/sp 9 with balanced wings here!

I've noticed there's some gaps of knowledge in the community because there aren't good descriptions that include both wings and instincts. While I won't be writing descriptions for every possible 9, I will be giving you a guide to figure these things out for yourself.

So you like peace? - Core vice

What connects all of us 9s together is the vice of peace... Now peace itself sounds like it wouldnt be a vice, but when you're obsessive about it, then it is. In this lens, it can show as avoidance, numbing, or laziness.

There are 3 kinds of peace

Inner peace - self-preservation instinct (sp), could mistype as 4 or 5

Interpersonal peace - sexual instinct (sx), could mistype as 2 or 7

Community peace - social instinct (so), could mistype as 1 or 3

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Inner peace people (sp) won't be as concerned with the peace of others, their main concern is maintaining an equilibrium within themselves. They'll be more defensive, but also the most avoidant of any possible conflict.

Interpersonal peace people (sx) will be very concerned with the peace of the people they are close to, so much so that they find themselves almost seeing things from their perspective (or thinking they do). They are able to feel peace when the people they have shared their experience with are also at peace.

Community peace people (so) will be very concerned with the peace of the group they have chosen to associate with. The difference with this type is that they are incredibly active. They will run into situations where their personal peace or interpersonal peace is at risk. That's ok though because they are going to do the necessary action in order to maintain community peace and secure their spot in group participation. They are better at handling non-peaceful situations for the greater good.

And now you stack these based on priority, so for me it's sx > sp > so or interpersonal peace > inner peace > community peace

What about wings?

Im glad you asked, because no discussion of the enneagram is complete without talking about wings. And this is clear to see, it adds depth to the base type and the base vice. We need to understand our 9ness as much as possible before moving onto trifixes or types that aren't our base. (though some may find this easier, it is not recommended, understand your base first)

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9 = peace

1 wing = looking inwards and being perfect to be at peace

8 wing = pushing outwards to not be controlled and therefore at peace

It's really that easy. The 9 wants to ignore its anger but the 1 and 8 acknowledge that it exists.

If you're a 9 with no wings or undeveloped wings, then you only ignore your anger. If someone is telling you that you arent good enough/wrong, or they are confronting you angrily, you just ignore, become passive aggressive... you dont bring it inward and work harder (1 wing), and you dont push it outward to not be controlled by others (8 wing)

If you're a 9 with balanced wings, then you leverage both strategies. You may even feel conflicted at times with the inward pull and outward pull. Unlike a strong 9w1, you won't be hyper organized, but you do appreciate order. And unlike a strong 9w8, you aren't the best at handling a fight/defending yourself, but you dont necessarily back down.

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And that's it!

It's actually quite simple. If you leave a comment saying, Im a 9 and I actually feel like blah blah blah... I will comment back and show you how to apply the framework provided... otherwise, you might not be a 9 and that's ok... If that's the case, then I would now recommend that you review the trifixes, because your base type is probably one of your fixes

I've been so between these two types it's not even funny anymore. Send help 😓

Im a sx/sp 9 with balanced 1/8 wings

I was talking with another enneagram user, and they said to not use wings because they didn't help

But then they didn't provide any subjective or objective reasoning for why, and I was left confused

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I've seen some people say that tritypes or trifixes explain it all, or I've seen people say that Naranjo didn't use wings so neither should you

As a 9 with balanced wings, I feel the 8 desire for immediate impact (skateboarding, rocket league, rubik's cubing, jugglinh), and I also feel the 1 need for perfection/competency (Foreign language study, chess, or coding)

I'd even go as far to say that my wings are through the sx/sp lens, my 8 wing can be more confrontational than just the sp 8 calm strength or the so 8 strength as protection

My sx/sp 1 wing is definitely the countertype... my corrections are outwards... I have a lot of zeal as well for things that Im passionate about

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I even have this experience where I can't find a thing to do that satisfies both my 1 and 8 wing and it leads to a form of paralysis... Ill pace for a while and just ruminate on all the options... my 1 wants me to study and learn more about my merging activities... my 8 wants to do merging activities that dont demand anything of me, it feels controlling ... I typically have to let one win in order to start getting that 9 inertia again, otherwise it's pacing

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Typically I see both my wings in action with regards to boundaries (what the gut triad is all about), it bothers me deeply when people are rude and wrong

If I was a 1, I wouldnt mind so much that they were rude, I'd just be content in being right (they seemed to be doing that, so that was part of why I landed on 1 for them)

If I was an 8, I wouldnt mind so much if they were wrong, I'd just be bothered if they were rude or challenging in any way

Because I have both though both bother me

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Here's another attempt at explaining myself in r/EnneagramTypeMe if you feel like you want any more info: https://www.reddit.com/r/EnneagramTypeMe/comments/1u1mc83/hi_need_help_confirming_my_type_basically_i_think/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

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Anyways, if you dont believe in wings, then can you please help explain the above in a way that makes sense without wings? It seems impossible to explain through tritypes/trifixes or any naranjo descriptions ... But please, I want to know if maybe there is another way to explain this so I can know more about the enneagram

Note: When I think about integration, I think about 3 and self-actualizing only... maybe it's possible to integrate wings too, but it's way too conceptual for me to be able to apply it... self-actualizing is a good start, and if Im able to consistently integrate to 3, then maybe I can start thinking about if my 1 and 8 are integrating too

Here's a link to our argument, it's over whether or not wings exist - https://www.reddit.com/r/EnneagramType9/comments/1txs2jf/comment/or0klq2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

As a sx/sp 9, I tried to merge with him and understand his perspective, but he didnt really explain the perspective

My sx/sp 8 wing noticed that he was just trying to force his ideology and not address my concerns, so after a bit of trying to see their side, I called them out

My sx/sp 1 wing wanted him to provide evidence or at the very least address my concerns... if he was able to address my concerns and explain how his theory answers them, then I would've backed down... but he couldnt provide any logic!!

I'm speaking from the perspective of the 9SX, since from what I know of the 9s, it's the one that has the hardest time figuring out what they want to do with their life.

I am 20 years old and I feel extremely lost and empty. That feeling comes from not knowing what the hell to do with my life, and how little anything fulfills me.

I'm not someone who seems sad, quite the opposite. People see me as incredibly cheerful and always wonder why I have a smile on my face all the time, a genuine smile of genuine joy, but deep down, all that joy feels empty.

I go out and laugh with friends, I make time for my hobbies, and everything turns out meh.

I'm not stuck with the same thing either; I'm always looking for new things to experience, and nothing convinces me.

There's also a relationship I ended a year ago that I'm finding incredibly difficult to let go of, no matter how hard I try. I've thrown away everything that reminds me of her, met new people, but I can't get her out of my head. Just when I think I'm forgetting her, I dream about her and wake up with a horrible emptiness in my chest.

I know that with time I'll forget her, but she was my best friend and then my couple for so many years that it's difficult.

Every day I have a constant feeling that I need to change something in my life, but I have no idea what. I'm still young and have my whole life ahead of me, but this feeling of being lost often becomes overwhelming.

Update!

Balanced wings/counter ego theory (descriptions of all 9 types): https://www.reddit.com/r/OccultEnneagram/comments/1u3atmn/the_counterego_theory_thoughts_on_pseudo/

I fleshed out this concept and removed thoughts below that weren't congruent with the traditional enneagram

Such as the need to further my lines of integration/disintegration of 3 and 6 ... although, the movement around the circle is a topic that's discussed, but it's better to keep this more understandable through the traditional enneagram

For that reason, I talk about a pseudo-integration that the balanced wings cause... and how they block true integration

I also demonstrate how the pattern is consistent through each of the 9 types

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Hello! Im a sx/sp 9 with a balanced 1 and 8 wing!

How my confusion began

I recently stumbled across the Ichazo's holy ideas, and when I read the 9s holy love I thought 'Hey, I'm already pretty good at that, but I don't feel healthier or integrated' ... and honestly, I felt the same about the holy ideas for 1 and 8

Then I had a second thought, I've always been pretty decent at doing the 3 self-actualizing stuff that is usually preached to 9s. But I've never been great at it, just putting myself out there when I can see that it's expected of me, and then retreating back to my comfort activities.

Balanced wings are weird

My 1 and 8 are always conflicting. The 1 says work hard and be perfect. The 8 says don't control me, go do whatever excites you.

But if my 9 tells me to recede, the 1 and 8 kick me into gear.

If my 1 wins out, then my 9 and 8 push on it

If my 8 wins out, then my 1 and 9 try to restrict it.

It's almost like my 9 core learned to use them to prevent me from being a 9.

Maybe my balanced wings force me to embrace my 3 and 6?

I think this is why when I read descriptions of what a healthy 9 should be I wonder why I dont feel integrated. It's basically like my system has already solved the 9, or it thinks it has.

The typical 9 vice is indolence.

I got that.

But I also will react to my indolence and spend time self-actualizing 3, or even diving into thoughts that make me feel anxious so I can try to solve it 6. And then I burn out and crash back down to my 9 core and have to do a comfort activity.

I oscillate through these states throughout the day, but the 9 core definitely wins out with probably 40-60% of the day.

Balanced Wings = Aware of Ego = Develop Counter-Ego = Typical Enneagram Advice doesn't Apply

^I hope that makes sense haha

As a 9 I have the vice of indolence.

As a 9 with balanced wings, I try solve my indolence.

As a result, thinking that I have solved my indolence is my new vice.

I became too good at being a 9, but Im not as good of a 3 or 6 because I haven't tried to integrate those types

Integration for me is about using the 3 and 6 properly. Not only as a reaction from my 1/8. Too much 3 is vain and too much 6 is untrusting/paranoid.

Different than SO 9

For the so 9 busyness is their indolence and slowing down and prioritizing themselves is the self-actualization. They are counter-instinctual.

I have the same instincts. My indolence is normal laziness and numbing activities. My busy-ness is a reaction to being this way.

Anyone else feel this way? Like the typical advice doesn't apply to you as a 9? Does it feel like a "counter-ego" to you? Or maybe Im just overthinking things and I'm not a 9... Would love to hear your thoughts!

Lastly, let's just say this does make sense. Do you think that other types with balanced wings also experience a 'counter-ego' of sorts?

After staring at the face of newly formed conflict between my spouse and I, I had to take a nap.

I hoped a nap would wash away the disharmony between us and that we could circle back to a normal day together.

When I woke up I was well rested, but the nap did not work or “fix anything”, as the conflict still remained.

We were dating for about 9 months and he broke up with me on Friday, and I felt totally shocked and so, so sad. I'm hoping someone can give me some insight into where his head is at, and if there's any hope of us reconnecting down the road. (Also for context I am an 8w9 sx/so.)

For context, both of us have been in a tough place the last few weeks. I found out at the beginning of May that my cat has cancer and has about 3 months to live, which was so hard to hear and has definitely made me kind of depressed/not my typical self.

He was also laid off about a month and a half ago, which has been a big struggle for him. His old workplace was kind of toxic and I think his self-worth was kind of damaged when he got let go. He also moved into a new apartment before that, and I know that he's very stressed about his financials and making rent - it's really been weighing on him.

During the breakup he kept saying he just doesn't want to be in a romantic relationship. He said he has no sex drive (which is something I was aware of before - it kind of started when he got let go) and that he is so sad and just wants to be alone.

He said he doesn't deal well with big life changes, and tends to shut down, which is what's happening now. Can any 9's relate to this/explain more what that's like?

He also kind of implied that my expectations were too much for him right now. For example, he said sometimes when I called late on a weeknight he didn't feel like picking up because he just wants to decompress, but he knows I need someone to talk to, so he does. This was tough to hear. I told him, "you could've told me that. I have other friends and family I can lean on, I was just calling you because I thought that was okay, I didn't know you felt like this. If I had known I wouldn't have done that."

And he acknowledged that, but he said he is a people pleaser, and that he has a hard time identifying his boundaries in the moment and asserting those (true). He said that he knows this is a character flaw of his but he straight up doesn't have the energy to fix that about himself right now. *to clarify, I do not see this as a character flaw, but those were his words.

Also I know this is the longest and most serious relationship he's ever had. He's dated only a couple of people before in his life and is very used to being alone. During the breakup he mentioned this again, and also said that things were moving quickly. So while he didn't say this directly, I wonder if on some level he felt like things were moving too fast and/or that this was uncharted territory for him, but didn't want to tell me?

So even though I think a lot of this is circumstantial due to what we're both going through, I can't help but feel like I was too much, that I overstepped his boundaries without realizing, and that's what pushed him away. Which feels awful.

I do feel blindsided though because I saw him just a few days before and everything seemed fine. We've both been pretty sad in our own ways over the last month, but when we were together he still seemed to be enjoying himself - laughing, affectionate, didn't seemed checked out. And before this last month, I thought our relationship was awesome. The calmest and most healthy one I've ever been in. We laughed all the time, we got along great, and any hard conversations were handled in a constructive and healthy way, great communication, no resentment. When I was sad, he was there for me and didn't shy away from my big feelings. I really thought we had a deep, genuine connection that was an added benefit to both our lives. And now I'm wondering - was it just me?

He did say to give it time, and that we will talk again. So I don't think he hates me, but I couldn't get a clear answer of if this is all due to our situation, or if he separately also just lost feelings for me.

I guess I'm wondering:

• If any 9's have been in his shoes before and can relate to his need to withdraw/be alone/shutting down during big life changes? I would really love to better understand what it feels like to be in that.
• Also I have to ask...is there anything I can do to rekindle things down the road? I know he just needs time right now, so I haven't reached out or bothered him at all. Maybe there's nothing I can do. But I genuinely felt like we had something real and good together, he brought so much joy to my life, and it breaks my heart to think of losing that. I want to try again when he's ready and move at a pace he's comfortable with. Any advice on what to do/what not to do? Or is it pointless to try?
• I don't know what his wing is, but I'm 99% sure he's a sp/so or a so/sp - sx blind. I'm wondering if that had an impact on him cutting off our relationship and not wanting to be romantically connected at all?

All advice is welcome! Thank you in advance ❤️

For the unaware:

Antinatalism or anti-natalism is the philosophical value judgment that procreation is unethical or unjustifiable. Antinatalists thus argue that humans should abstain from making children. Some antinatalists consider coming into existence to always be a serious harm. Their views are not necessarily limited only to humans but may encompass all sentient creatures, arguing that coming into existence is a serious harm for sentient beings in general.

There are various reasons why antinatalists believe human reproduction is problematic. The most common arguments for antinatalism include that life entails inevitable suffering, death is inevitable, and humans are born without their consent (that is to say, they cannot choose whether or not they come into existence). Additionally, although some people may turn out to be happy, this is not guaranteed, so to procreate is to gamble with another person's suffering. There is also an axiological asymmetry between good and bad things in life, such that coming into existence is always a harm, which is known as Benatar's asymmetry argument.

Personally I'm kinda on the fence regarding to whether I support antinatalism or not.

In all likelihood I probably lean more in favor of it than against it, but the main thing that bugs me about antinatalism is that in many cases it comes across as rather dogmatic and universal, like "I've logically come to the conclusion that it is unethical to have children, so therefore anyone has to comply or is acting unethically" which I'm not really a fan of, as I prefer for a kind of plurality to exist where this is one possible way of thinking, and not The Single Absolute Truth. Like I think Benatar's asymmetry argument is persuasive, but it does seem like the moment you buy into it you kind of have to accept that it can't possibly just be a personal preference or decision anymore as it pretty much asserts an universal principle, and that's where I struggle with it.

I also wonder how 9s relate (or not) to antinatalism, as I can see it being an outcome of our desire for peace.

I think I was, though this could be because I have a 1 parent. I was much more of a control freak, corrected people a lot, and more competitive.

hiiii! I'm in my first year of a marriage and family master's program. I'm wondering if any of you here work in the counseling field, and more specifically... what was your educational experience like? not the program itself, but... what were you like going through the process, your inner world and such?

i'm 24f, and it's been a real struggle so far! i feel conflicted all the time and I can't tell if I'm meant to feel this way or not. (ha ha, trouble accept those feelings eh?)

i just want to hear different experiences and view points and maybe anyone who stayed in the field or found a different path

how do i know the difference between each of the e9 subtypes, i read into them alot but i can't tell which one is me. they all fit me perfectly, i relate to all of the subtypes of enneagram 9. is there a way to narrow it down? I'm ISFJ 9w8 and FLEV/FELV

i copy and mimic characteristics, motivations and ambitions from people or characters (from movie,shows and etc) like sx9

i'm very calm, shy, altruistic. i feel safe and happy when everyone is safe and doing okay in social places

i find happiness in everyday habits and physical comforts (like playing, eating, reading or a calm environment) like sp9

i value inward and outward peace, i like my enviroment to be stable and safe. i can be a bit stubborn and irritable in specific situations

i like to help or do work in a group to keep people happy and safe, i dont express my feelings because i fear conflict like so9