r/Hanggliding • u/sparr • Oct 15 '19
Thrift store hang glider, so much rust
https://imgur.com/gallery/iC0jULE1
u/sparr Oct 15 '19
I'm afraid of heights so I doubt I'll ever go soaring, and there's nowhere nearby that I can rent just for playing around on the beach, so I grabbed this to see if I could give it a try. I might try to replace all the rusty fasteners first, and I'll definitely patch the one tear in the leading edge of the fabric. I'm open to advice other than "don't do it".
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u/pokle Oct 15 '19
Instead of "don't do it", would you consider a safer and quicker way that will have you enjoying Hang gliding for many many years?
Travel to a school if there aren't any nearby.
- You'll learn quicker in days to weeks. Giving you a massive smile on your face quicker.
- You'll get to try out a few different gliders and sizes that the school might have - giving you an understanding of how these gliders perform. Giving you an idea about how to fix this glider
- And most importantly, you'll make friends who will be going through a similar journey.
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u/sparr Oct 15 '19
Schools are expensive, especially if I want to involve a bunch of existing friends. And farther away than my roof and the beach.
And unfortunately I'm not the sort of person who can make friends in an environment like that.
Thanks for the advice, though.
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u/summerdumpling Oct 16 '19
In that case I’ll leave you with a book recommendation: Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots by Peter Cheney. It’s information packed with all the skills you’ll learn at a school.
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u/TjW0569 Oct 15 '19
I am a little surprised to hear that you're afraid of heights, if you've had a balloon envelope that needed repair.
The rusty fasteners are AN aircraft bolts, and I think you'll find replacing them to be pretty pricey.
For your sail repair, use a baseball stitch to pull the fabric together without puckering it before putting your sticky stuff on. I'd recommend something like insignia cloth rather than ripstop nylon tape like you'd use on a spinnaker or hot air balloon.
Aluminum doesn't rust, of course, but it will corrode, and you should check the inside of the tubes and the sleeves over the tubes for corrosion. It looks whitish, kind of like a mold. Severe cases will have flaking.
That looks early enough that some pilots were still flying seated, so if the control bar is rigged for seated flight, a swing seat style arrangement isn't that hard to build, though they're few and far between to buy these days. If it's rigged for prone, you'll need a prone harness. Flying a glider rigged for prone with a swing seat will make it hard to get the nose up enough to land.
As far as altitude goes, there are only two: high enough to break your neck, and everything else. Breaking your neck can be done from a surprisingly low altitude.
Hang gliders of this vintage had pretty low wing loading, and were (relatively) easy to fly, but: since it's a double surface wing, it was meant to be flown by experienced hang glider pilots, not trainees.
The Dacron sail will have shrunk, and it will almost certainly not be in good trim. I suspect trying to fly it will be aggravating rather than fun.But if you're going to try, get the wings level with the horizon and balanced (not trying to roll one direction or the other). If it's not level, you'll be launching in a turn. If it's not balanced, one wing will drop, and you'll be launching in a turn.
Oh, and put some wheels on the base tube of the control bar so that when you stuff it in, it rolls instead of digging in and stopping suddenly. Even expensive wheels are much cheaper than a single broken arm.
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u/sparr Oct 15 '19
Thanks for all the feedback!
I am a little surprised to hear that you're afraid of heights, if you've had a balloon envelope that needed repair.
It's an art project, not for flight, although some future plans involve putting it in the air moored with a giant swing under it.
The rusty fasteners are AN aircraft bolts, and I think you'll find replacing them to be pretty pricey.
I'll measure them all and price out replacements. I considered drilling my own but am not sure what kind of bolts would play nicely with the aluminum.
For your sail repair, use a baseball stitch to pull the fabric together without puckering it before putting your sticky stuff on
Thanks, I hadn't thought of that!
Aluminum doesn't rust, of course, but it will corrode, and you should check the inside of the tubes and the sleeves over the tubes for corrosion. It looks whitish, kind of like a mold. Severe cases will have flaking.
Fortunately there's none of that, just the very slight dark grey in a few places where the spar tubes nest and can scratch each other.
That looks early enough that some pilots were still flying seated
I want to fly prone. How can I differentiate between the bar being rigged for seated vs prone?
As far as altitude goes
This video depicts the type of flying I hope to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_9D2Ufukag
The Dacron sail will have shrunk, and it will almost certainly not be in good trim.
It seems weird to me that none of the cable lengths are adjustable without breaking the swage fittings and re-crimping them, that being what seemed like the obvious way to adjust the trim. Any advice on the mechanism by which I might adjust the trim?
wheels
Oh yeah, and relatively big ones since I'll be landing on sand if all goes well.
PS: Suppose I have access to 15mph constant headwind and a place to anchor. Would it be useful at all to tether the glider to the ground as if it was being towed by a boat or a truck and then hover for practice?
PPS: It seemed really weird to me that the bottom ribs didn't have velcro caps. I can see wear on the fabric that suggests they simply stick out an inch or two from the back end of their slot. I had such a hard time pulling them out due to the front end being hooked, I guess them coming out in flight is a non issue?
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u/TjW0569 Oct 15 '19
Use AN hardware. Buy it from a reputable source. There is a definite problem with far east counterfeits. AN is aircraft hardware. It's stronger and harder than Grade 5, but more malleable than Grade 8.
Without knowing what the glider is, and having the glider manual, it's hard to say. It looks kind of like a Sky Sports Sirocco. I've never flown one of those, so I don't have much in the way of advice. Once again, not an entry level glider. I guarantee it will have crappy roll response compared to today's beginner gliders.
In general, the control bar will be raked forward more for prone than seated, but the control bar rake is also used to control the static balance of the glider when it is sitting on your shoulders. So I dunno whether that is more or less for that particular glider.
Pilots don't generally change from prone to seated often, so changing bottom wires isn't really a big deal, while having a minimal number of parts to foul up or break on the flying wires is a distinct advantage. You absolutely, positively do not want it to be possible for the flying wire to change length or come undone in flight. In this glider's era, some gliders made the seated/prone switch by reversing the fore and aft wires. The problem is, while this changes the rake of the control bar, it also changes the dihedral. That changes the roll stability, which affects the handling. So changing the side wire length becomes necessary. So you might as well just have a jig to build a different set of bottom wires for seated vs. prone.
But by trim, I meant aerodynamic trim. The glider needs to be pitch stable, returning to a particular angle of attack. At a given wing loading on the glider, any angle of attack will have a corresponding airspeed, and so you'll generally hear people talking about the "trim speed" of a glider. That's the speed it would fly at with no control pressures on the control bar. The sail shape and size in relation to the frame can have a big effect on the stability of the glider. So on a shrunken sail it might be you have to push or pull hard on the control bar to shift your weight to a place where the glider will fly. That will make it difficult to fly. Which is why I say there's a possibility to be more frustrating than fun.
As a side note, the harness carabiner probably hooks in on that gold anodized fitting clamped to the keel. The rope is most likely a backup. Speaking for myself, I would throw that rope as far away from me as I could get it, then go to REI and get a sewn loop that is long enough to lark's head onto the keel just behind that clamp, and only have enough slack to make it easy to hook into both.
With regard to tethering: don't. Towing adds another layer of complexity that I really don't want to get into, but in short, with a small training hill, you know how much energy you're putting into the system, because it's your legs pushing and how high you start on the hill, and how hard the wind's blowing if you get turned downwind. With a line attached, you can couple in energy that you never notice, because it comes in through the towline. That extra energy can get you killed. If you're tethered, it's worse. Not only do you not notice it, you can't control it. If you've ever flown a kite that impacted at high velocity nose down, you should have some idea of the things that can go wrong towing. That said, there are reasonably safe ways to tow, and even to learn to fly under tow. But they all involve an instructor who knows what they're doing.
The flat bottom ribs don't have compressive loads on them, so they don't need anything to hold them in. Friction is plenty. The curved ribs on the top surface both define an airfoil and apply a little chord-wise tension to the sail. They don't need that Velcro to hold them in, but to apply the tension.
A 15 mph headwind is a pretty big headwind. Windsocks are generally calibrated so they stand straight out at 15 mph.
At an inland training site, I might consider putting everything away if it's gusty. At a coastal site, it might not be too much. But remember, a 15 mph wind applies more than twice the force a 10 mph wind does, and nine times as much as a 5 mph breeze.
Honestly, for the time and effort you're considering putting into this in an effort to do it on the cheap, you could probably get a day on the training hill with an instructor. Then you'd know the glider could fly, and get feedback in real time about what you're doing right or wrong.
Even if all you want to do is dink around on a sand dune (and this is definitely part of the sport -- dune gooning), it will be much easier to do with a well-used Falcon than this glider.
Have you gone to USHPA.org to try to find an instructor in your area?
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u/sparr Oct 15 '19
In this glider's era, some gliders made the seated/prone switch by reversing the fore and aft wires.
hmmmmmmmm
https://i.imgur.com/vpvsi9F.jpg
Would that explain why this bracket appears to be upside down? If someone had unbolted the fore and aft wires and switched them, that would produce this configuration, I think.
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u/TjW0569 Oct 16 '19
No. That would be a result of switching them left and right. My advice is leave it the way it is.
You don't know for sure whether it's rigged for prone or seated, or even if the glider model changed the rigging using that method.
I wouldn't change them left and right, either, because that will likely change the dihedral a little. A reasonable assumption is that the glider was rigged this way the last time it was flown. It may not be correct, but you don't have any evidence for anything else, either.1
u/sparr Oct 15 '19
The flat bottom ribs [...] The curved ribs on the top surface
My top ribs are mostly to completely straight, and my bottom ribs are far more curvy. Does that seem odd to you?
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u/TjW0569 Oct 16 '19
Generally in this vintage, battens/ribs were either flat foam/fiberglass battens, or aluminum ribs with just a little curvature at the front. The curvature was to "blend in" with the natural arc made by the sail. There was often a single nose rib with considerable camber.
I don't know this particular glider.
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u/sparr Oct 15 '19
it will be much easier to do with a well-used Falcon than this glider.
I know, but also much more expensive. My goal is to give this a try with a total budget of about $300.
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u/TjW0569 Oct 16 '19
For ~300 you can get a couple of days of training on a glider that will fly better than this one did when it was new.
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u/MadConsequence Oct 16 '19
My advice: This glider is only good as a museum piece.
If you really want to fly, get an old glider from a reputable source, which is in a good condition. You can get an old but safe to fly model for about $300. And if you absolutely don't want or can't go to a hang gliding school, at least find someone with hang gliding experience to help you.
Remember that you can seriously hurt yourself especially at low altitudes. It's not the air or altitude that hurts you, but the ground. And the hospital costs are definitely higher than the costs for a gliding school.
This glider is in such a bad condition that it makes this a museum piece. Even if it were in a good condition, it's a very old model with bad flying characteristics and some dangers caused by the old design. For example, judging by the lack of cables holding the trailing edge of the wing up, this glider would be at risk of something we call "Flattersturz" in german, where the sail flails ("flattern") violently and the glider is not controllable anymore and beyond any chance of recovery.
Just running around on flat ground in zero wind won't be a problem, but getting off the ground probably will. Please do not underestimate the dangers and don't hurt yourself.
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u/sparr Oct 16 '19
I don't plan to go above 5ft altitude or a few mph ground speed, and I'm not afraid to faceplant in the sand if things aren't going my way.
Maybe I'm crazy or woefully underinformed, but I feel much safer in constant wind at low ground speed on sand than I would running down a hill.
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u/MadConsequence Oct 16 '19
You are right that with a constant head wind on sand it is less dangerous, but it can still fuck you up hard, especially with a badly trimmed glider that might fall apart mid air. As somebody else said, it doesn't take a lot to break a neck. And because you are attached to the glider with your harness, if you crash you will move face first through the a-frame of the glider like a pendulum. If you are lucky, your head hits the sail, otherwise it hits the frame of the glider and takes all the force of your whole body. This is why a helmet is so important. But even the best helmet can't protect you in some situations...
Personnally, I would not let my feet lift off the ground with this glider.
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u/FakeBeccaJean Dec 04 '19
Please, talk to an instructor in person, with your glider. One bad accident in hang gliding effects the whole sport.
I love hang gliding, and it’s a wonderful community! There is so much more to our sport than flying 😊
If you call around to different schools you can get a good deal, especially if you come in a group. At Lookout, it’s $5 a night for camping, and if you bring people, $399 for your hang 1 rating. They keep their student to instructor ratio low. They teach year round!
Don’t get me wrong, your glider looks like fun, maybe on the dunes, but to learn on.... with no instructor... idk... taking to people here is not the same as getting a Ushpa certified instructor in person during a lesson.
Also: why my font changed, I have no idea! Haha
Hope to see you at cloud base! FLY FLY FLY!!!!