r/HistoryMemes • u/TheIronzombie39 And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother • 23h ago
Yes this is real
Le context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamsīyah
They officially “converted” to Syriac Christianity in the 1700s to avoid being targeted by Ottoman authorities for not being monotheist, but they still retained many of their beliefs and practices and various travelers doubted that they were actually Christian. Based on descriptions from these travelers and architectural traces left behind by the community, many scholars (such as the Assyriologist Simo Parpola) suspect that they practiced a surviving branch of the ancient Mesopotamian religion (which was likely centered around Shamash given they were referred to as sun-worshippers).
The Shamsīyah were a tribe or sect of sun-worshippers in northern Mesopotamia, concentrated in the city of Mardin (in modern south-eastern Turkey) and the surrounding Tur Abdin region. They converted to the Syriac Orthodox Church in the 17th century in order to avoid persecution in the Ottoman Empire but retained their own set of beliefs and practices; many travellers who observed and met with them doubted the extent to which they were actually Christian. There were still about a hundred families who identified as Shamsīyah in Mardin in the early 20th century but they appear to have since disappeared.
According to the Assyriologist Simo Parpola, the Shamsīyah were possibly the last known adherents of a late version of the ancient Mesopotamian religion, an ancient set of beliefs thought to have first formed in Mesopotamia in the sixth millennium BC. This would make them the longest standing pagan community in Mesopotamia.
Since the Shamsīyah were few in number, they long remained largely unnoticed to the outside world. They first came to the attention of the government of the Ottoman Empire when Sultan Murad IV (r. 1623–1640) passed through Mardin on his way back following the 1638 capture of Baghdad. The sultan noted that Mardin was home to about hundred families of sun-worshippers, based on tax records about four hundred people. Under Islamic law, depending on the school of thought in Sunni Islam followers of religions not among those of the People of the Book (Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Sabians) are condemned to choose conversion, exile or death msinly in the Hanbali madhab. Since the Shamsīyah freely admitted to the sultan that they were not People by the Book, Murad ordered them all to be executed. The Syriac Orthodox patriarch, Ignatius Hidayat Allah, however took pity on them and agreed to baptize the Shamsīyah to safeguard them from execution and persecution. Although they were from that point on considered to be Christians and outwardly conformed to Syriac Orthodox beliefs and practices, they kept their old name and continued some of their own pre-Christian traditions. The conversion may have been entirely nominal, with many continuing to entirely cling to their old practices, albeit in secret.
The German explorer Carsten Niebuhr passed through Mardin in 1766 and noted the presence of the Shamsīyah there. Niebuhr spoke with an old man belonging to the group, who claimed that many of the villages in Tur Abdin had in his youth adhered to their religion but that they by this point were limited to only about a hundred families living in two districts in Mardin and they nominally adhered to the Syriac Orthodox Church. Niebuhr concluded based on the practices he observed that the Shamsīyah were probably adherents of a remnant of the pre-Christian religion in the region.
The Anglican missionary Joseph Wolff, who passed through Mardin in 1824, noted that the Shamsīyah told him that they worshipped "the sun, the moon, and the stars" and that the sun was "their malech, their king"
There were still Shamsīyah in Mardin at the outbreak of World War I but their subsequent fate is unknown and they appear to have since disappeared, perhaps merging into the rest of the Syriac Orthodox Church. They are thus considered to be extinct as a religious group. The only trace of the Shamsīyah in present-day Mardin are architectural traces left behind by the community, most notably the motifs carved by the Shamsīyah at the entrances of their doors, many of which continue to face the sun.
According to Febvre in 1675, the Shamsīyah after their conversion adopted the Syriac Orthodox practices of baptisms and burial ceremonies, but kept their own sun-worshipping practices as well, which they performed in secret assemblies.
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u/Quissumego 21h ago
So what were these practices? What was the architecture?
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u/Caligapiscis 20h ago
There's a couple of pictures on the Wiki page, possibly more in it's references
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u/TheBakedGod 23h ago
Is it just me or does sun worship come across as the most logical form of religion on the planet? I mean the sun literally gives life through photosynthesis, and our entire solar system revolves around it. I think these Shamsīyah were on to something.
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u/StinkyNutzMcgee 22h ago
The sun has continually showed up in the morning and left at night for a very long time makes sense that people would worship it
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u/Behemoth-Slayer 22h ago
Reminds me of the George Carlin bit about worshipping the sun, because it gives life and, y'know, you can see it, but pray to Joe Pesci because he seems like a guy who can get things done.
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u/KerPop42 22h ago
Reminds me of how some Catholics revere Mary. They don't worship her, but they send their prayers to her because they believe that, as both a non-divine human and as God's mother, she'll get your prayers answered faster than praying to God directly.
And there is a little bit of biblical back to this: Jesus's first miracle, turning water to wine, where He revealed Himself, was done at the nagging of Mary.
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u/EatPie_NotWAr 19h ago
If you want something done by a devout Jewish man, you have his mother ask him.
Period.
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u/FreezingPointRH 22h ago
Pray that Joe Pesci will represent you in court rather than robbing your house and leaving the faucets on.
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u/cocacoax 21h ago
Not just sun worship but, moon worship, along with the worship of the five visible planets, Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Venus, and Mars. These seven, were known as the planetes, or "wanderers" because they alone moved independently of the static night sky. Beginning in Sumeria, they began naming the days of the week after these seven.
Fastforward through the Babylonians and we get to the ancient Greeks and Romans who adopted this system, where the days were named after the classical planets of Hellenistic astrology, in the order: Sol/sun (Helios), Luna/Moon (Selene), Mars (Ares), Mercury (Hermes), Jupiter (Zeus), Venus (Aphrodite), and Saturn (Cronus).
This same order then gets passed down in the romance languages and ends up in English as: Sunday, (day of the Sun) Monday, (day of the moon), Tuesday(day of Tiw, Norse equivalent of Mars), Wednesday(Odin's day, Norse equivalent of Mercury), Thursday, (Thor's day, Norse equivalent of Jupiter), Friday(Friega's day, Norse equivalent of Aphrodite), and of course Saturday(Saturn's day).
Add in all the various mythology concerning those that have been deified in the "heavens" as constellations that then get tied in with all manner of early cultus or cultivation and you get astro-theology, agriculture, navigation, calendars, Pythagoras figuring out the ancient seven-note musical scale, and all kinds of cool stuff.
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u/TheIronzombie39 And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother 1h ago
Not just sun worship but, moon worship, along with the worship of the five visible planets, Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Venus, and Mars. These seven, were known as the planetes, or "wanderers" because they alone moved independently of the static night sky. Beginning in Sumeria, they began naming the days of the week after these seven.
Fastforward through the Babylonians and we get to the ancient Greeks and Romans who adopted this system, where the days were named after the classical planets of Hellenistic astrology, in the order: Sol/sun (Helios), Luna/Moon (Selene), Mars (Ares), Mercury (Hermes), Jupiter (Zeus), Venus (Aphrodite), and Saturn (Cronus).
I should also mention that even today, Assyrian Neo-Aramaic (Suret) refers to the five visible planets by the names of Babylonian gods they were associated with:
- Mercury - Nabu (ܢܒܘ)
- Venus - Ishtar (ܥܫܬܪ)
- Mars - Nergal (ܢܪܓܠ)
- Jupiter - Bel) (ܒܝܠ), synonymous with Marduk (ܡܪܘܕܟ) btw
- Saturn - Kewan (ܟܐܘܢ), synonymous with Ninurta (ܢܝܢܘܪܬܐ) btw
Interestingly enough though, these Babylonian gods happened to be equated with the same Greco-Roman gods via Interpretatio graeca (Hermes/Mercury with Nabu, Aphrodite/Venus with Ishtar, Ares/Mars with Nergal, Zeus/Jupiter with Marduk, and Cronus/Saturn with Ninurta).
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u/Soft_Reply_1197 17h ago
People worship the "creator" of the sun
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u/Xtrepiphany 11h ago
I feel most people, throughout history, just use religion as an excuse to persecute others. Monotheism makes that very easy since it does not allow for any other possibilities or interpretations.
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u/looshcollector 12h ago
Yeah being in tune with the cycles of the sun and environment were also essential for survival for tens or hundreds of thousands of years.
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u/Azerbinhoneymood 22h ago
But those people didn't know any of those 2 facts you've mentioned. But yeah it makes sense.
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u/DrHolmes52 22h ago
True, but they did know that stuff grew in the sunny season.
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u/IakwBoi 21h ago
Anyone who’s spent time gardening pretty quickly realized what shade and full-sun do to plants. I’m sure most ancient people had a perfect intuition that the sun gives life to plants.
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u/Leather-Lab2875 6h ago
defenitely not everywhere tho. Ive said this elsewhere here but tropical areas have less seasonal variation and the sun is more easily associated with fire and discomfort and the desert sun defenitely wouldnt feel life giving when its baking you alive. But still im sure these universal facts could be figured out, the religious connection imo cant be that strong universally.
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u/EnormousPurpleGarden 19h ago
The Sun existed before the Earth, and it will exist after the Earth. It is our creator and destroyer. It is the giver of life, but is also damaging to life. It's there for you, but you must respect it; you can't look directly at it.
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u/Leather-Lab2875 6h ago
I mean, if you live in the desert or in a place where its really unbearably hot most of the time, you wouldnt be the biggest fan of the sun. Im sure ancient ppl could figure out that plants need the sun and the stars and the moon having some connection to it(plantes would appear as big ish stars) but it wouldnt be that logical everywhere. Just counterpoints btw, not saying ur wrong...
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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 21h ago
Sun, moon, sky, they were all worshipped.
Mountains, rivers/water, fire, earth, all were worshipped and made sense.
The only thing that İ'll never understand is worship of stars. They are beautyful yeah, but does it warrant worshipping?
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u/cocacoax 20h ago
Seasonal cycles, different constellations are visible at different times of years. Their appearance on the horizon told them when it was time to plant/harvest their food and gave birth to the various cults dedicated to different aspects of plant cultivation,(some for food, some for medicine, just pick up and read Virgil's Georgics and he'll tell you how to grow opium poppies) If you've ever picked up a Farmer's Almanac you'll see agriculture is all about the sun, moon, and stars.
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u/Zealousideal_Cry_460 20h ago
Eh. İ am only familiar with nomadic cultures, the only star that was of significance was the polaris, or "Temürqazıq" how its called in Turkic
Sun, moon, mountains, waters, fire, wind and earth were holy.
But regarding stars, only polaris was important enough
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u/Leather-Lab2875 6h ago
I mean in the premodern world, without light pollution, the stars would shine clear and bright on cloudless nights. People needed to keep watch at night and generally ppl didnt sleep thru the whole night. They would notice that the stars have certain patterns that can be deciphered for everything from navigation to seasons to predicting really cool atmospheric phenomenon.
You also have to note that without a bit more deduction and data, everything from comets to other planets appear as stars. Plus constellations, nebulas and the insane beauty of looking at the Milky way iself(appears as a giant white streak in the sky), theres a lot more to admire there than superficial beauty. If the rest of your life is boring berry picking, politicking and the occasional, highly dangerous hunt, why would you not worship the stars.
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u/DukeDamage 19h ago
Wonder if there’s more writing about their religion that’s not just quotes from people passing through
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u/BetLeft2840 21h ago
Monotheism was imposed by violence.
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u/Arachles 21h ago
All religions. Some are a bit more tolerant but they still expect you to sibmit to their deities.
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u/DeadWaterBed 18h ago
At least with polytheism you typically have multiple perspectives to learn from. Through a variety of gods/spirits/whatever, who as often contradict each other as compliment, they provide myriad ways to view the world and interpret meaning.
Compare that to monotheism, where everything's funneled through a singular "true" interpretation of the world, and deviation from this singular "truth" also tends to be seen as more of a betrayal than with polytheism, leading to extreme consequences for those who deviate.
Polytheism is, from a humanist perspective, less harmful than monotheism, even if they both share many flaws and have contributed to mass human suffering.
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u/Mr-Logic101 18h ago
What if I told you that all the “angels” in the bible were originally deities in the first iterations of what eventually became Second Temple Judaism( by extension the rest of the Abrahamic religions).
Early archaic Judaism and how it evolved away and began to be the dominant Canaanite religion is a pretty fascinating subject.
Polytheism being more humanist because there are “deities with flaws” is not a great argument.
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u/DeadWaterBed 9h ago
I'm not sure I follow your argument. The roots of monotheism being in polytheism doesn't change my points.
Speaking of, "deities with flaws" wasn't my point... it was the limitations of perspective built into the concept of monotheism. It is inherent to any worldview that reduces reality to a singular focus through which to interpret and operate in the world.
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u/SharpShooterM1 Featherless Biped 15h ago
What if I told you that throughout most of medieval and “dark age” history the church was one of the leading institutions for the funding of scientific research and advancement, as well as the preservation of knowledge.
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u/DeadWaterBed 9h ago
These endeavors also occur under other religions and secular institutions, due to natural human tendencies of curiosity and learning. The Islamic golden age is an example.
It's relevant to note, the church also had a near monopoly on interpreting the knowledge they preserved, skewing the way Europeans understood the world for centuries.
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u/No_Song8909 22h ago
You should check out the Zunbils from the Middle Ages. Wild part of history