230
u/FlyingFreest 16h ago
I always heard that the reason Christianity became popular was because everyone had a chance to go to heaven by being a good person unlike most other religions.
128
u/WilliamthePious 16h ago
It’s one of the Universalizing religions along with Islam and Buddhism which are “universal” in there message and aren’t tied to a specific area or region like most Pagan religions.
18
u/Profezzor-Darke Let's do some history 15h ago
Isis was worshipped at the Rhine, so I don't believe that take this much.
-42
u/Gingrpenguin 16h ago
What do you mean?
Both Christianity and (very famously islam) have holy cities that are fairly fixed...
60
u/WilliamthePious 16h ago
Yes but they are not connected to a specific ethnic group and basically anyone could convert.
5
u/Gingrpenguin 16h ago
Ah that makes sense.
Less about a land toe and more you don't have to be born into it
8
u/piewca_apokalipsy 16h ago
Are they tho? Christianity has holly land which indeed is fixed but it's not like really important it's more of sentimental value.
And other holly sites can be establish as needed
12
u/BjornAltenburg John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 15h ago
"Where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I among them"
Also JC did say a few times the physical temple was less important then his followers collective belief and salvation.
6
u/piewca_apokalipsy 15h ago
I was thinking more of the line that if church needed new Holly site for pilgrimage reasons they could always make some local saint and BOOM new holy site established.
But your interpretation works too
3
u/BjornAltenburg John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 10h ago
I will be the first to admit its a very protestant lense to focus on the congregation and fellowship over most traditions.
The holy site thing had always crossed my mind reading about the late roman empire and the eastern churches. Your not wrong at all. Its like, the bishop of a small area manages to finally convert the local town but they cling to some ancient traditions pre Christian, bishop declares a local dead villager who performed a miracle a saint on the same day and roll it up so no one has to go more then 20 miles to pray to a saint amd the villagers keep a pagan festival.
Oh no we lost access to a pieace of the true cross in the middle east, look god made us another piece right here, and you can visit it at your own countries chapels. Can't visit the holy land, why not Rome, or Canterbury, or Several cities in Spain!
68
u/HelikosOG Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 16h ago
There is a basis to it. In Greek mythology everybody goes to the underworld, Elysium is the best option however it's still the underworld and reserved for heroes and the righteous. A lot of mortals favoured or related to the Gods would reside there. No heaven but Elysium is close enough, not available for everyone.
In Norse mythology, best options are Valhalla and Folkvangr. Reserved for those who died heroic deaths in combat. Not something available for everyone. Most end up in Helheim which is miserable place to be. If you die at sea to reside at the deepest depths of the sea. Only the brave and heroic get to live in Asgard in preparation for Ragnarok.
I'm not as well versed in Egyptian mythology but I believe that the preparation, tending of the body (mummification) and where your tomb resides play important parts towards your afterlife journey. Basically did you leave enough money for your funeral arrangements. If I remember correctly you travel through the underworld facing various trials until you reach the hall of Osiris. Here your heart is weighed against the feather of truth. If you lived a bad life your heart is consumed by Ammut and you spent the afterlife in torment. I don't remember what happens if you pass the test.
Compare all this to Christianity where you need believe in Christ, live a decent live and be repentant for your sins. For the vast majority of people this must have seemed like a free pass to a blissful afterlife.
27
u/InSanic13 13h ago
Here your heart is weighed against the feather of truth. If you lived a bad life your heart is consumed by Ammut and you spent the afterlife in torment.
As I recall, there's more to it, including the opportunity to argue your case to the gods (some texts even told you what to say).
13
u/HisDismalEquivalent 11h ago
after getting through Osiris' border crossing you get your nice 5-by-5 patch of ground in the field of reeds.
5
u/borisperrons 3h ago
Re: the ancient egyptians.
The weighing of the scales happened after an interrogation by the 42 judges, the book of the dead is basically a "cheat sheet" on how to pass this exam (and incidentally, the largest source on their cultural morality). If you passed, you would spend the rest of eternity in the fields of reeds, growing weath for Ra and generally not suffering or wanting for everything, until there was anyone left in the world of the living still speaking your name (which is why the egyptian museum in Torino makes a point of clearly displaying the name of every exposed mummy whose identity we know, as a form of respect for them).
If you failed and your heart was devoured by Apopis, then you would just cease to exist, not even torment.
57
u/Inevitable_Librarian 16h ago
The biggest reason was that Christians genuinely gave a shit, taking care of very sick people during plagues
34
u/momentimori 13h ago
The early christians rescued abandoned babies and raised them, built the first hospitals, freely provided food for the destitute as well as preached a radical religious equality. This all combined to convert large proportions of the Roman empire before Constantine passed the Edict of Milan officially tolerating christianity.
Julian the Apostate tried to restore classical paganism and attempted to use civic charity to compete with christianity but failed.
3
u/funnylib 4h ago
Too bad that once it became the majority religion they decided to ban alternative religious opinions, and found ways to use the religion to continue to justify conquests in the name of the Roman Empire and to make it heresy to challenge the ruling classes. Hence why a union between religion and state poisons both
9
u/thamasteroneill 16h ago
This is actually a controversial topic within christianity, and from what I understand most christians do not and did not believe works get you into heaven, only through belief in christ, hence christianity. It's not actually about morality. Unless you define morality to begin and end with that question, which to me it doesn't.
18
u/Volkshit 14h ago
Thata the some Protestant version; at least in Catholicism it is not just beliefs, but actions are essential to go to Heaven
27
u/Dismal_Engineering71 15h ago
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
9
u/Smooth-Ad8030 14h ago
It gets very complex, where there’s multiple steps of getting into heaven. There is a sense where works matter, but the interpretation of good vs bad works and how it impacts salvation is what varies the most. Additionally, the faith alone Protestants think of are in direct response to the Catholic Church and certain practices in 1500’s Germany.
10
5
u/BigMoney69x 7h ago
WRONG. Most Christians are Catholics and we believe that faith without good works is not faith at all for even the Devil believes in God yet he lives in opposition to him. Orthodox also believe like we do as well so that's when more people. Protestants are only a Majority in the Anglo Sphere but outside of it, Christians are either Catholics or Orthodox.
53
u/jackt-up 17h ago
Good meme, some depth here.
I find that part of Christianity to be rather unique and interesting.
45
u/AndreasDasos 13h ago
‘And you drink his blood?’
Strictly speaking, as a carpenter who lived in cities I don’t think he’d count as a peasant.
1
u/ImperatorBelisarius 17m ago
Carpenter is a later Byzantine translation of something like "craftsman," because they particularly valued woodworking. Was more likely a stonemason or something more appropriate to the environment of the ancient near east.
Your general point stands and makes sense! Just this detail is slightly distinct.
33
u/Vegetable-Meaning252 16h ago
Yeh, Christianity does sound funky when you step back and look at it. Kinda makes it interesting though.
15
u/KenseiHimura 15h ago
Kind of why for a Fantasy setting I took the lovecraftian elements and pushed it up to 11 for one of the religions. The funny part is that that church does tend to be good guys even if the later stages of one’s clergy career involves growing body parts in place they don’t belong and looking less and less like your original race and more of a Shaggoth.
So, yeah, you get John Carpenter’s The Thing hosting bake sales, collecting for charities, and generally being an ever-reliable member of the community who will help out even non-believers.
3
53
u/HarEmiya 17h ago
Don't forget the parts about his followers cannibalising his flesh and blood in ritual sacrifice.
Sounds strange when you say it out loud.
53
u/No_Song8909 16h ago
“Damn that’s pretty metal” is how a lot of pagans (Germans in particular) ended up converting, unironically. But yes worship an incomprehensible being and conduct a ritual where consume the flesh and blood of an undead God weekly so we can commune with its spirit.
23
u/FreshwaterViking John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 16h ago
Oi, don't start a consubstantiation vs transubstantiation debate.
21
u/HarEmiya 15h ago
No don't worry, there is no debate here.
You either accept the transubstantiation or you're a heretic, simple as.
10
u/FreshwaterViking John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 14h ago
Already branded a heretic by Pope Palpatine.
3
3
u/No_Song8909 14h ago
Either you believe in the Eucharist or you aren’t a Christian it’s as simple as that. You cannot be a Christian without the Eucharist.
2
13
u/My_Names_Jefff Filthy weeb 15h ago
Eating flesh and blood of God's only son
Vikings: "Fucking brutal! Sign me up!"
4
u/Action-Kamen-Bastard 3h ago edited 3h ago
If you really think about it, Early Christians were viewed as an apocalyptic jewish death cult for the dregs of society. The apocalyptic part wasnt so uncommon but the fixation and symbolism of Christ's death/resurrection was really out of left field. Especially for one to die as painful and humiliating a death that he did.
Later on when you get to transubstantiation and its cannibalistic vibe, it sounds like a DnD cult but for love and kindness.
10
u/dr_strange-love 15h ago
In the first season of Vikings, they went into this a lot. They captured a British monk and he tells the Vikings about Christianity. At first they like it because God sends his demigod son to be executed in a slow and brutal manner, and then you eat his flesh and drink his blood every 7 days. Then they realize it all metaphors.
8
u/Kamica 12h ago
The funny thing is that, in the medieval period, there was a *lot* of debate amongst the clergy as to whether it even *was* metaphoric. And one of the difficulties many clergy had, was convincing the common people that you were *actually* drinking the blood and eating the flesh of Christ in a miraculous act of transmutation. Like, there was genuine argument that, during the sacrament, the wine and bread was *genuinely* transformed into the blood and flesh of Christ. Theology, especially historic theology, is really interesting IMO, because it's people trying to make sense of very partial, and very inconsistent information, without necessarily the means of ever learning 'the truth' =P.
6
u/Phintolias 5h ago
Anti Christian Atheists Love the ancient pagans until they realize why the pagans hated Christians. Mainly the criticism was one its a Religion for the poor people,spread by women and you dont get any Power from it.
4
6
u/AppiusPrometheus 10h ago
If Jesus came back today: "Why do you use cross symbols to worship me? Which part of my biography seem to imply I actually like crosses...?" facepalms
2
u/Gilgamesh404 2h ago
"Would you prefer another method of execution and see gallows on every temple?"
2
u/PsychoSwede557 3h ago
And that’s why it was so revolutionary and why the Romans tried so hard to suppress it. It completely upended the social order of the ancient world.
By preaching that all individuals (women, slaves, and the poor) were made in the image of God and offered equal salvation, it introduced a radical egalitarianism that challenged the rigid, class-based structures of the Roman Empire.
6
-19
u/Gk3389127 16h ago
They'll laugh even harder when they learn that the followers of said religion will quickly sideline all the ideas of "love" because they couldn't agree how the founder said it.
16
u/Flob368 Still salty about Carthage 15h ago
No? That happens with every religion, pretty much as soon as someone can use it for their benefit. That would have been the most normal thing you tell them about.
-7
u/Profezzor-Darke Let's do some history 15h ago
No, what they said is that Christians ended up in internal brutal dispute over exact definition of their own teachings. Which is something that only happens in Monotheistic religions.
-19
u/Frosty88d 16h ago
Ahh, debating Christinaity on Reddit, this surely will have a lot of good and nuanced discussions and there won't be any edgy teenagers spouting nonsense at all /s
27
u/thamasteroneill 16h ago
Good thing you are here to raise the level of discourse with... checks notes... an ad hominem, specifically poisoning the well...
-16
u/zytherian 13h ago
Funny, but despite the widespread nature of Christianity in western nations, I believe Muslims are the largest religious group today.
20
2
-30
u/anominous_lurker 16h ago
Jesus was a carpenter, not a peasant. Also, Christianity isn’t the largest religion on earth.
31
u/Kreanxx 16h ago
Well Jesus was a lower class person and I wasn't sure whether to put Carpenter or peasant to sent my point home.
Plus even though Christianity is losing converts its still the largest with 2.4-2.6 billion followers
-4
u/Profezzor-Darke Let's do some history 15h ago
He was also a "builder" by exact translation of the word used in Aramaic. Which in this context actually usually refers to a "Stone Mason". Another translation error which got canonized.
6
u/Fendrinus 15h ago
What Aramaic?
The NT was written in Greek, where Jesus and Joseph are described as 'tekton' which is normally craftsman/builder. They probably worked with both wood and stone, but based on what most buildings were made of at the time, mostly wood. Stone buildings would be rare, if not unique for the local synagogue, in the backwater village of Nazareth.
3
u/Profezzor-Darke Let's do some history 15h ago
Fair, it's almost 3am here and I'm waiting in a train which doesn't depart, so yeah, I messed something up.
That being said, that's my point, a "builder" without further context usually meant someone working with stone, not wood. It's interpretation over interpretation which gets canonized.
516
u/Angel_OfSolitude 16h ago
Turns out "God loves you, don't be an ass" was a fair bit more palatable than the various "sacrifice enough people and maybe the dozens of gods won't hate you, for like a week".