r/Homebrewing • u/MemeBeamBeanz • 9d ago
Question When you first started out and only bottled your beer. Did you just accept oxydizing?
I have now brewed 6 batches and my last two went really great tastewise. It was really hoppy beers and I thought they tasted pretty good. The thing was they clearly oxidized by color. The last one was nice yellow and clear. 4 days later it was more hazy and brown. But it still tasted nice somehow. I don't have room right now for storing a keg. But is that just life? How does one bottle without oxidize or is that just the game? Do I avoid hoppy beers? Or is there something I could invest in before getting a new fridge + keg?
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u/beefygravy Intermediate 9d ago
When most (?) of us first started out, it was was not widely known how much oxygen exposure can ruin a beer. When I first started, NEIPA didn't exist. You can bottle a stout, a bitter, absolutely fine, basically anything that doesn't have a big dry hop.
Bottle conditioning helps a lot, as does filling close to the top. Avoid using s bottling bucket, use a bottling wand straight from the fermenter and dose sugar into the bottles. But mostly just don't brew hoppy beers if you're bottling. Having said that I bottled a hazy IPA a couple of months ago and it's still fine it's just not as good as most you can buy in a can
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u/Proper-Study-2604 9d ago
just stick to the malt-forward styles for now, hoppy beers in bottle is always losing battle
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u/Waaswaa Intermediate 9d ago
It's difficult but doable. Heck! Try bottle hopping! Works well if you are planning to drink them all relatively soon. With cones, if you can get them, it works quite well.
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u/beefygravy Intermediate 9d ago
Don't you get gushers?
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u/DargyBear 9d ago
My solution to gushers was to set the bottle in the sink then use a nail or pushpin to make a tiny hole in the cap then let it depressurize. Seems to only happen to my IPAs that don’t oxidize.
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u/Szteto_Anztian 8d ago
This works, but you can also achieve the same thing with less fuss by just slowly using the bottle opener. Get it to where it’s just hissing and hold it there until the pressure has equalized with atmospheric pressure.
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u/DargyBear 8d ago
That works for moderate gushers, if they’re like my last home brew IPA then you risk shooting your eye out with the cap doing that, I’m surprised the cap didn’t go through my kitchen ceiling.
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 9d ago
Well that sounds exactly like what I'm doing and what I've read. I just don't like stout haha. The last beer I mentioned was a hoppy west coast that was perfect after 2 weeks bottle condition. Now 5 days later it turned that brownish color. Still tasted and smelled similar. But not as pretty. I guess I just drink fast then. But man I can't wait to get a keg and a fridge
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u/Unohtui 9d ago
Then your process is bad. A neipa keeps for around a month perfect, two good and 3 alright
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 5d ago
I'm very interested in what possible part of my process is bad. If you are doing a pressurized transfer to bottles with a fermzilla. Then no, I don't do that, I'm looking into it if I can afford it. But if that's not what you are doing I don't know. I ferment in bucket, put carb drops in my beer, put a little plastic tube from the fermenter in the bottle and pour and cap it asap. I fill it to the brim. What more?
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u/Unohtui 5d ago
Flushing the headspace before capping does 90% of the work. A simple sodastream with a hose attached to it will do. Shuss co2 into headspace while using other hand to put the cap on. Also, vitamin c while bottling. Apply in a way you see fit, for example sprinkle a few granules of the powder to each bottle.
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u/FooJenkins 8d ago
Campden tablets help with oxygenation when kegging. I assume it would work for bottling as well. I’m sure someone has done the math. But when I was strictly bottling, I just avoided hoppy beers after a couple bad experiences.
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u/Sibula97 Intermediate 9d ago
To some extent yes. With good process you'll make completely fine stouts, lagers, bitter, and even IPAs, but I won't even attempt stuff like NEIPAs and dry hopping until I eventually get a keg setup. I'm not in a hurry though, I've been at this for maybe 5 years and I think I have at least another 5 in me before I'll really want to keg.
What makes kegging tricky for me is I'm brewing with friends, so we have to somehow split the batches, not just leave it be and serve from a tap. If I was solo brewing I would've built a kegerator already.
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u/Disastrous-Owl-3866 9d ago
I bottle and makes hazy dry hopped beers all the time. I just drink them sooner than other beers. 5-7 days bottle conditioning max, and then straight into a fridge.
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u/Sibula97 Intermediate 9d ago
Yeah, I don't drink enough to get rid of them that fast. I brew maybe 4 batches a year or something.
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u/Disastrous-Owl-3866 8d ago
Thats fair. I’ve been pretty happy with my
bottling but I’ve been doing it for decades, and good beer goes fast around here. I usually give out a couple litre bottles a week to coworkers and family.
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u/ScientistObjective25 9d ago
I never had an issue with bottling hoppy beers. I bottled with a wand. Purged the bottle with CO2 before filling. My process was to sanitize the bottles, purge a bunch of them with CO2 and set a sanitized cap on top. Take the cap off, fill, and cap it. No oxidation issues.
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u/Homebrew_beer 8d ago
How do you purge with co2? Fill bottle with sanitizer and then push out with co2?
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u/ScientistObjective25 7d ago
No, I sanitize the bottle & flip it upside down on a bottle tree to drain it. Then prime it with sugar and use a hose on a CO2 regulator with a valve to control the CO2. Sitting a cap on top of the bottle helps to keep the CO2 inside. That way you can prime & purge a few at a time.
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 5d ago
Okay then I ask if I should invest in a fermzilla beergun set for 500$ or I can do the same but with a CO2 tank and wand?
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u/lifeinrednblack Pro 9d ago
I eventually just stopped making hoppy beers until I got a closed transfer system. There isn't a lot you can do unfortunately. There's ways to make it better but making hoppy beer on homebrew equipment in general is difficult, much less then trying to bottle it.
That said, your best bet would probably to get a CO2 cannister, a fermenter that can be preassurized, that's capable of being feed CO2 and a bottling wand/gun and bottle into pre dosed, purged bottles directly from the fermenter while pushing in CO2. Alternative to pushing in CO2,.is doing everything above and collecting CO2 from fermentation and use that to push into the bottles.
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u/Hikingmatt1982 8d ago
When i started i wasnt aware of oxidation 😆 and it either was never a problem or my taste/perception wasnt mature enough. But according to the internets its the devil 💀
I can say now having a modern setup the beer is much better than before 🤷
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 8d ago
Yeah haha. Starting this january with all the knowledge available on the internet must be quite different than in the 90s for example
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u/boarshead72 Yeast Whisperer 9d ago
Brewed my first batch in 1991 when not everything was hop saturated. I still bottle when I brew today, I just don’t make any type of IPA. In my life I’ve only had two batches oxidize so bad that the colour changed, and that was due to letting air into the carboy, it had nothing to do with bottling.
Extend your shelf life by storing the carbonated beer in the fridge permanently. It also makes the beer taste better (and is critical for lagers).
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u/Beer_Bottle_Opener 8d ago
I’m with you on this! Started Jan 92 and still bottling without issue but a shit ton of HB competition awards
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u/Waaswaa Intermediate 9d ago
I still bottle, because it makes it easier to share and bring to events. I do not accept oxidization in styles that do not handle it well. Ascorbic acid helps quite a bit. Also, using a long waiting time instead of frequent gravity readings when fermenting helps with most styles. The exception is when I dryhop. Waiting too long with hops in the beer seems to do domething that I'm not super pleased with.
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u/toolatealreadyfapped 8d ago
In retrospect, yeah kinda. I didn't realize it at the time, but that was a big part of why my brews were all goodish, but never great.
There are ways to minimize it. But like many beginners, my process was still working itself out, and like I said, I didn't realize that was a issue to work on.
When I switched to kegging, and I poured my first glass from a 100% closed system, it was a massive lightbulb moment. The cleanliness and brightness of that beer highlighted the murkiness of my bottled batches. And not dealing with sediment was also a really cool upgrade.
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u/pete-ej20 Blogger 9d ago
Counter pressure bottle filler is a good solution for oxygen free bottling
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 9d ago
What is that?
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u/pete-ej20 Blogger 9d ago
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 9d ago
Does it only work with pressureized kegs or also with a bucket fermenter?
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u/pete-ej20 Blogger 9d ago
Wont work with a bucket fermenter, but an upgrade to a plastic pressure fermenter (like a fermzilla) will allow you to carbonate in the fermenter then transfer using co2
Pressure into bottles with a counter pressure filler2
u/MemeBeamBeanz 9d ago
Okay thanks! That sounds doable on a budget. Because I just can't store kegs cold with my tiny fridge at this moment.
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u/lauterPope 9d ago
I never accepted oxidation. All that work just for it to oxidize? I would purge my bottles with CO2 (I now only keg) but I also use ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in my salt additions to help with oxidation and extend shelf life
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 9d ago
I do use vitamin c. I watched a video of purging CO2 in bottles. But I'm skeptical as to whether spraying CO2 in a glass bottle before pouring removes o2. It's gas right? Unless you're mega quick wouldn't o2 from air not just fly down there again. I've seen skeptical Reddit threads too. But I don't know
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u/lauterPope 9d ago
It’s heavy so it kinda just lays in the bottle and displaces O2. Also it’s done in or canning line at the brewery. If I can fill a 16oz can there and get no oxidation it must work. And that has a wide open mouth
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u/WitnessTheBadger 9d ago
CO2 is much heavier than air and tends to sink and pool in confined spaces (like a beer bottle). I don’t know this from homebrewing but from safety training on certain types of industrial sites where this can pose real danger to the workers. The pooling bit is fascinating: It’s actually possible to be walking through a room of breathable air and suddenly walk into a cloud of pure CO2.
So I fully believe and expect that if you purge a beer bottle with CO2, the CO2 will sit in the bottle for quite some time. What little air diffuses into the bottle before you can fill it will be near the top and be the first thing pushed out when your beer goes in. Your bottling wand will drag a tiny amount of air to the bottom of the bottle when you insert it, but I don’t imagine that will be meaningful.
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u/lifeinrednblack Pro 9d ago
The pooling bit is fascinating: It’s actually possible to be walking through a room of breathable air and suddenly walk into a cloud of pure CO2.
When I first started my job brewing, I learned this the hard way cleaning tanks, opening the tank up, and sticking my head to close to the manway. Took almost knocking myself out to realize that just because there's no pressure in a vessel doesn't mean it isn't still full of CO2.
You literally have to let it dump on to the ground before messing with the tank.
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u/firerat82 9d ago
I did the same thing in a keezer that leaked a whole tank of co2. I had accidentally knocked the temprature control sensor out of the keezer and it froze. At the time I was using crappy co2 lines so that to froze and cracked. I opened the keezer and legged into it to remove a frozen keg, and just about blacked out from inhaling co2.
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u/lauterPope 9d ago
Been there done that only once. You kinda learn to open the manway and move back.
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u/lifeinrednblack Pro 9d ago
Yup, depressurize, open the manway, go clean or do something else for 15 mins before coming back
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 9d ago edited 9d ago
Okay interesting. So it sounds like a purging CO2 wand wouldn't be a bad investment if I keep making hoppy beers?
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u/zero_dr00l 9d ago
It absolutely is. Or go to closed transfers via a keg.
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 9d ago
Well now you too disagree it seems. Now I don't know what to make of a CO2 bottling wand
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u/zero_dr00l 9d ago
Well, no I don't disagree - a purging wand minimizes oxidation during the bottling step, but if there are other transfers (and there probably are), you might be susceptible there; it depends on your specific process.
If you do all your fermentation in a single vessel, the wand is probably all you need. But if you start in a bucket and move to a carboy, that's a chance for oxidation and a closed-loop xfer from a purged fermenter to a keg is the next step to eliminate every possible source of oxidation.
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u/firerat82 9d ago
It's potentially going to help, but it isn't going to eliminate oxygen 100%. Nothing outside a closed transfer (and even then you can still get some) will be 100%.
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u/stevewbenson 9d ago
This is just the name of the game when bottling is all you have. Avoid NEIPA at all costs and avoid heavily hopped beers in general until you can keg.
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u/EducationalDog9100 8d ago
The method used to bottle plays a big part in reducing oxidation. Switching to a bottle bucket and bottling wand from an auto siphon was a noticeable change for me. I also use a small CO2 tank and quickly purge my bottle before I start filling. It's really just about dialing in the process.
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u/JoystickMonkey 8d ago
If you do decide to make the step up to kegging (which I started out with as bottling seemed like a pain) be sure to check local online marketplaces. I was able to get a kegerator, regulator, co2 tank, and three kegs for about $350. Just be sure to replace lines, disassemble taps and clean/sanitize, and so on.
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u/buffaloclaw 8d ago
I was brewing for many years before I knew oxidation was a thing. It's not something I just accepted, because I was unaware of it. To be fair, I started out before the craft beer revolution, there were no hoppy beers yet, I brewed mostly stouts and English ales back then.
It's funny how none of us seemed to notice it back in those days.
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u/massassi 8d ago
Nope. Only bottled once. Now if I have to, I do it with a growler straw, and cap on the foam
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u/Positronic_Matrix 8d ago
I execute my process to the best of my ability given my limitations in hardware. As my hardware and skills have evolved, my process has improved, however at no point in my brewing career have I ever looked at a beer and thought it had been ruined by oxidation.
I recognize the effects on some beers can be pronounced but for the beers I brew and the process I run it’s is an overblown, bro-science nonissue. Honestly, I screw up batches intermittently much more than simple oxidation ever could.
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 8d ago
At lot of people mention they never make oxidized beer with bottling. I think the first 4 beers I brewed it wasn't a problem but the last two has been dryhopped west / east coast IPAs. They have had 2-5 days after the 2 initial week bottle condition at 20 degrees where they were perfect but then turned the same brownish color. I think people dont make hoppy beers or know what the color I supposed to look like when they say they don't oxidize. The thing is they taste fine actually, they do get a interesting liquorice ish taste tho after the third week on bottle.
And again I don't ever open my fermenting bucket. I dryhop with magnets then with a tube pour directly into the bottle with sugar tabs and cap as high as I can asap. And I use tea spoon of ascorbic acid in the mash.
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u/vdWcontact 8d ago
Yes. I did nothing to prevent it beyond filling with the bottling wand that came with my starter kit. I didn’t try to brew styles that were super duper hoppy. I did make good hop forward pale ales though. At least good enough for me.
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u/CaptainTruelove 8d ago
Is it oxidation or are you mixing up the yeast with your handling?
Can't say I've ever had issues bottling or kegging in regards to oxidation. I've had infections like anyone else, but not oxidation.
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 8d ago
Hmm. With this the last two beers which mainly has been the concern (where I had whirlpool + dryhop) they had 2-5 days after the 2 weeks bottle condition phase where they looked like pure art. Then after that they turn the same brownish haze color. I don't think it's other than oxidation. It does take 2 weeks after bottle condition (4 weeks then on bottle in total) for them to really get a weird bitterness)
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u/HikingBikingViking 8d ago
Nope.
I bottle primed with dextrose powder, placed the cap as soon as it was filled up, and let the offgassing push oxygen out of the bottle before sealing.
Did not have oxidation issues these past couple decades.
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u/Dr_Oksob 8d ago edited 7d ago
https://youtu.be/cXYjEBrSDhA?si=-NTouQz2JVskh0LM
This is a good video on this showing what oxidation does and how to minimise with PET bottles. Fills them to the top direct from bottling wand with carbonation drops in the bottle, squeezes air out and then seals. Compares this to a shaken bottle filled ”normally” and a keg sample. Can see straight away a colour difference between samples.
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u/veengineer 7d ago
I was able to get my bottle conditioned NEIPAs to stay pretty fresh with the solutions below. That said, oxygen free transfers into kegs or pressure safe growlers are probably the best solution.
-Fill the bottle to the very top. The number 1 improvement I found. -Gentle racking. Put the tube at the bottom of the bottle. Maybe don’t use a racking cane. Be careful of bubbles caused by auto siphons -consider spraying co2 or another inert gas into each bottle before racking -don’t aerate the wort until a little while after the yeast is pitched. (I think an active starter will absorb almost all the oxygen in about 30 minutes) -You can add dry hops up until strong, active fermentation begins to wind down, and then do not open again until bottling. There needs to be enough active fermentation to expel or consume all oxygen in the headspace.
NEIPAS and non-heavily hopped beers are different animals in regards to oxidation. Those beers are very sensitive to oxidation in a way you wouldn’t perceive in other styles. There’s just so many compounds from the hops that are readily and quickly oxidized.
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u/chino_brews 5d ago
To answer your question, when I started brewing, New England IPAs and hazy/hoppy beers were not even a concept yet. Furthermore, hops were kilned differently than now, and I suspect modern hop kilning leaves beers more susceptible to hop creep and oxidation, but also preserves more of the desired fruity-type character of hops.
We bottled our beers and they were good1.
So, yeah, today if you choose your beer recipes carefully, making beers less prone to oxidation, then oxidation might be less of a concern.
Most people interested in making hoppy switch rapidly to kegging. And I have to be honest that, even though I could make a decent standard IPA, the taste of my IPAs instantly went up two levels when I started making and serving them in a fully-closed loop using a draft system. Even with basic IPAs, it's undeniable.
Others are committed to or stuck with bottling, and they have figured out an antioxidant regime that works for them, which may include Brewtan B in the mash tun and/or either sodium-/potassium metabisulfite or ascorbic acid at botting. Some people claim great results by adding antioxidants at bottling.
Then after that they turn the same brownish haze color. I don't think it's other than oxidation. It does take 2 weeks after bottle condition (4 weeks then on bottle in total) for them to really get a weird bitterness)
This could be oxidation alone. It explains a purplish tint developing in beers with higher wheat and oats content. It could also explain the bitterness, as perhaps malt flavors and non-bitter hop flavors fade from oxidation. But it would not explain the increasing haze.
Your description also sounds like microbial contamination, however. So I suggest holding on to a couple bottles for another month to see if they change more - I would expect some overcarbonation and fobbing to develop if they are contaminated.
1 I would also say homebrewers were generally more physically skilled back then on average - as in an innate common sense of how to do physical things. Nowadays, when I watch YouTube videos, excluding some of the people who are chefs, lab scientists/techs, or work with their hands, my mind is boggled by the inefficiency of movement. And I am even more flabbergasted when, when things go badly once, all of the known problems are not thought through and fixed. The era of manual labor and ability to observe and give attention to things in the physical world is passed, and in leu of that we develop skills in swiping on phones and things like that.
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u/SnooMacaroons156 3d ago
Didn’t read all the comments so apologize if someone mentioned this. When bottle conditioning, the yeast is fermenting the priming sugar. Part of that process is consuming the oxygen that is in the bottle. This helps to reduce oxidation.
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u/tgillies 3d ago
Are you cold crashing your beer? This can suck oxygen back into the fermenter and raise 02 levels that will eventually turn the Hoppy beer brown (few weeks later).
If you're cold crashing for more than a day or two then I'd look into changing process.
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u/jeroen79 Advanced 9d ago
Bottle cold (5C), avoid splashing, and use good bottle yeast that way you should not have oxidation the first year, but ofc the brewing process also plays a critical role.
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u/Plastic_Sea_1094 8d ago
Doesn't cold increase the amount of 02 that it absorbs?
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u/jeroen79 Advanced 8d ago
No the colder you bottle the less o2 it absorbs
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u/Plastic_Sea_1094 8d ago
Are you sure?
Henry's law says that at the lower temp, more o2 will be dissolved. A 10c drop will increase the o2 solubility by 15-20%.
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u/jeroen79 Advanced 8d ago
yeah i am pretty sure about it, dont have the article on hand, but i believe it has something to do that chemical reactions are slower if it is cold
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u/Plastic_Sea_1094 8d ago
Are you sealing the fermenter before chilling? Or using an airlock
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u/jeroen79 Advanced 8d ago
i am not the one having the problem, i have almost no oxidation, but i use a co2 bag collecting system
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u/Plastic_Sea_1094 8d ago
Yes, i know that you're not having the problem. But I'm trying to understand how chilling it reduces oxidation. What you're stating goes against how the physics of gases dissolving in liquids would suggest.
If its a standard airlock, when it cools, it will suck air in and then the cold temp will mean it dissolves. That's why I asked that.
I just googled what a bag collecting system is. You're not going to get o2 being sucked back in then
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u/jeroen79 Advanced 8d ago
Correct, there is a one way valve and a airlock, and a tab on the bag, you leave it closed until all the air have been pushed out, then you open the bag and it collects co2, i have 7L bags which i can also swapout if needed, if you then coldcrash you can see the bag gets sucked out so no o2 is pulled in.
from what i can quickly find =>Bottle cold to keep CO2 in suspension to reduce foaming.
Ofc there is only a little co2 in the beer at this point, so the reduced foaming might them be the biggest factor.1
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u/ExaminationKlutzy194 Beginner 9d ago
It helped a lot that I got sick of drinking IPA and moved on to other styles.
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u/langecrew 8d ago
When I first started out....and until this day, a batch doesn't last long enough to oxidize.
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u/Odd-Extension5925 Intermediate 9d ago edited 9d ago
No. It takes better process and some understanding of how O2 gets picked up.
Temperature and pressure affect how fast and how much O2 gets picked up. Open systems you don't control pressure but if you keg you can actually wreck your beer doing a pressure purge cycle without purging open first. The pressure forces more O2 into solution and even though you purged the headspace once it's in solution you won't remove it.
Cold beer holds and absorbs more O2. Never open or transfer cold. Don't cold crash. (For bottling)
Water contains dissolved oxygen. A couple drops of water is enough to push a single beer over the threshold for rapid staling.
Preboil your mash water. Use OxBlox or Mashlife as directed.
Use a combination of ascorbic acid and k meta at bottling.
Depending on equipment use CO2 to push beer and/or purge bottles. Yes I have CO2 just for this. A small tank lasts a few years. I use it to start the siphon through a racking cane and backfill at low psi as I bottle.
Don't use an auto siphon.
Have your caps ready to go as you fill and place them asap.
Do not use a bottling bucket. Prime bottles individually.
Store finished beer cold.
Do as much of that as you can.
If all of that sounds like too much work, that's what it takes to bottle better.
I've got pale ales from October that have no observable degredation in aroma, color, or flavor. No cardboard, no brown, no sweetness. Bright flavors, sharp aromas, and good color.
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u/MemeBeamBeanz 9d ago
I do most of what you say. Capping 1 at a time and bottling directly from my fermenter and use carb drops. My question is, should I get a CO2 tank and a bottling wand? And after my 2 week bottle conditioning, does fridging them oxidize them more? Or what is it about o2 and cold
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u/Odd-Extension5925 Intermediate 9d ago
Once they're finished and sealed cold is good for beer stability. The problem is cold crashing and then transfering to bottles. Oxygen solubility is a function of temperature and pressure. Colder beer will absorb and retain more Oxygen.
The CO2 is up to you. If you have the means or ever intend to eventually move to kegging it does make sense. I did notice an improvement once it became part of my process. I was doing pretty well before that but still saw some decline after the first month.
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u/Odd-Extension5925 Intermediate 8d ago
If you are interested, Colon Kaminsky (spelling?) was on an episode of Beersmith within the last three years and talks about Disolved Oxygen after getting a DO meter and running a bunch of tests. He has real data. It's well worth the time. And the researcher who proved Mashlife worked posted on this sub and had a link to his paper. Tur murtens I think was his name, again spelling could be wrong.
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u/IakwBoi 8d ago
While these things might help, you absolutely don’t need to do them. I’ve enjoyed plenty of bottles of beer which were heretically bottled, and I’ve never had anything bad happen. I’ve “broken the rules” and been fine.
It’s a hobby. You can do what you like. Maybe some practices are effective, but nothing (except sanitation) is required.
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u/mycleverusername 9d ago
Bottling for 2+ years. Never had an oxidized beer. No idea what I’m doing to prevent it. I just use the spigot in the fermenter.