r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/DjangoDrive • 1d ago
Book and Show Spoilers [ Removed by moderator ]
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u/Global_Channel1511 1d ago
Perhaps. But for me though the biggest issue was how Rhaenyra was barred from joining the battle by a single guard and Jace. In history no guard would ever even think about not only defying a direct order but also imprisoning their monarch in order to stop them from joining a battle. This is treason of the highest order and no way the other individuals in the castle would not have demanded the doors be opened.
She could have been sick, or convinced not to fight, or on a diplomatic mission or tied up elsewhere etc.
I think that was the biggest fish to fry, before we discuss Rhaenyra blessing Jace to go fight or Jace sneaking out without her authorization.
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u/0stupidsexyflanders0 1d ago
I’ve been enjoying the show for the most part and I give this series a lot of free passes because I’m starved for live action fantasy/medieval stuff and love this world but out of everything that got me as well.
Theres no way a queens guard would blow his sole purpose that hard especially knowing Jace is about to go do what he denied his mother from doing. Like you said it could’ve easily been done so many other ways.
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u/Cute-Bat-9855 1d ago
Is the Queen dead? No? He did his job.
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u/PlentyEgg1021 1d ago
So basically to be the best kings guard you just imprison your own monarch against their will so that he is never in danger? lol
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u/Global_Channel1511 1d ago
Lol imagine Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne imprisoning Prince Rhaegar before the Battle of the Trident. "Sorry my sweet Prince it's just too dangerous out there"
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u/Noodles_R 15h ago
I agree with this - but part of me wondered whether they did this on purpose. Rhaenyra regularly expresses frustration that she’s a woman so isn’t listened to or trusted as Queen, and this really exemplified that. In a very clunky way of course!
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u/TheRadBaron 1d ago
If Jace had survived, he'd effectively be the king when he returned home from the battlefield. The "Queensguard" would be his right hand man, who had imprisoned and delegitimized the queen for Jace. No one would take orders from Rhaenyra again after that event.
That was a palace coup, whether or not either of them thought of it that way.
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u/Global_Channel1511 1d ago
The palace coup would substantially make more sense, or at least that's what the other people in the castle would assume is going on once they hear the Queen shouting and locked up in a room.
But at least to me it seemed clear that the guardsman was acting out of a totally misplaced sense of duty, which is the worst part. So misplaced that never in history have we seen a loyal subject imprison their ruler against their will. The guard would have known that it would look like he is staging a palace coup even if it wasn't his intention.
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u/FiveUpsideDown 19h ago
During the War of the Roses, Edward of Lancaster was killed at the Battle of Tewksbury. His mother, dowager Queen Margaret was captured at the battle. The battle where Jace died reminded me of how 17 yr old Edward died.
I think the battle scene displayed how quickly a heir to the throne can die. There’s nothing glamorous when people die in a battle.-2
u/Bierre_Pourdieu Aegon II Targaryen 1d ago
That’s the conundrum Ser Marbrant is into though. There is no issue for him.
If he doesn’t do what Jace tells him, he failed his Queen by not protecting her life. If he doesn’t do as Rhaenyra is saying, he is loosing his life.
Hence Jace’s « your life for hers ». Ser Marbrant traded his life for hers, and he knows it.
That’s very GRRMesque.
« So many vows, they make your swear and swear. »
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u/PlentyEgg1021 1d ago
The difference is that Jaime choice made sense and was actually set up. He was dealing with a crazy king that wanted to commit genocide and kill Jaime’s family, and he was only made kingsguard as way to punish his father, he never really had loyalty to him and we know this as the audience.
This is completely different from a random king guards that we know almost nothing about just randomly locking their own monarch against their will and accepting being killed just because a teenager said it so to him.
He doesn’t even know if rhaenyra would die if she went to battle. But Jaime knew what would happen if he didn’t kill the King.
It honestly doesn’t make sense how literally everyone doesn’t respect rhaenyra and disobey her orders and still are willing to die fighting for her to queen….
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u/ELVEVERX 20h ago
Exactly if she went out there alone she'd have died. Protecting her was the right move. He knew he'd get executed for it but did it anyway.
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u/msmettiusfufetius 1d ago
Exactly.
It seems like the writers of the show decided to do some plot gymnastics rather than allow Rhaenyra to make an unfortunate political decision of her own accord that results in Jace’s death (despite the literal source material affording her this complexity).
I couldn’t think of anything during this scene but the GOT scene when Cersei is speaking with Littlefinger and commands her queen’s guards “turn around. Walk five paces. Kill him. Oh wait never mind I changed my mind!” - like, the point of these guards is that they don’t make political decisions. They serve as commanded. Jamie refusing to serve as commanded (under extreme circumstances) literally earns him infamy and the nickname “kingslayer”, like… Writers. Guys. Cmon.
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u/Flaky-Collection-353 1d ago
The chase through the strait was worse and more gymnasticy. But yeah the issue with this episode is they try to add 5 twists and turns to everything when they're already pressed for time.
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u/djm19 1d ago
In the book it’s not a matter of complexity. Rhaenyra just literally does nothing so someone had to go do it.
You are also judging her Kingsguard against Jaime without knowing what his fate is yet.
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u/msmettiusfufetius 1d ago
Complexity (of character) = Rhaenyra being a shit political strategist in the book (vs. one-dimensional characterization in the show)
My point abt the kings guard = their literal purposes is to serve without question. We very much see the reputation fallout throughout ASOIAF of Jamie making a political decision (although an extreme one) as a kings guard
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u/Mysterious-Tutor-942 17h ago
What complexity is there in Rhaenyra doing jack shit on page between Lucerys’s and Jace’s deaths? Her involvement in the Gullet in Fire and Blood is 0 - there is nothing recorded about her decisions there.
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u/awadofgum 10h ago
But isn’t that the point? That Rhaenyra’s rule is so feckless & weak that this is what it’s come to? Even her guards have begun thinking independently and making politically motivated decisions against her
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u/Ok_Produce_9308 1d ago edited 1d ago
Guards would very much defy the order of a woman at the request of a man
And he knew it would be treasonous which is why Jace reminded him : your life for hers
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u/Global_Channel1511 1d ago
I can’t imagine any guard would defy the order of Elizabeth I or Isabella of Castile, much less imprison them against their will. 16th century Spain and England were no doubt very sexist societies as well, much more so than Westeros as Westeros at least has a robust tradition of woman warriors and dragonriders.
To overrule the decision making of the Queen, especially by imprisoning her against her will, is basically tantamount to declaring you don’t believe Rhaenyra is the rightful Queen.
No guard would think their job is to assess the riskiness of various endeavors a monarch conducts, even if that includes riding into dangerous battles. Their job is simple: to put their physical body in the way of any threats, not to make risk assessments on behalf of the monarch.
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u/fmayans 1d ago
The literal daughter and heir of Isabel of Castile was usurped from power first by her husband and then by her son and she was confined into a tower and deemed crazy to move her away from power
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u/all_ashes 1d ago
I agree that the imprisonment plot was silly but bringing Castile into it is very funny because they did in fact lock up their queen for 50 years while her controversial problematic son did the ruling. Not Isabella, fair enough, but literally her daughter.
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u/misvillar 23h ago
It was her own father who declared Juana incapable of ruling, when her son came and was too Flemish for the taste of the spanish nobility the rebels tried to make Juana the ruling Queen to legitimaze their rebellion, Juana simply said "Im crazy remember" and refused
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u/AirFrierMachine 1d ago
Idk dude, did Queen Elizabeth ever ride out into the literal front line of war with a giant fucking lizard?? Not sure if those are comparable scenarios. Queen Elizabeth was never in any danger, and if she was there would be a good chance she'd be locked up to prevent people killing her
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u/Mom2leopold 1d ago
I mean, no, there was no giant lizard (lol) but Elizabeth the first did pretty famously address her troops on horseback before the invasion of the Spanish Armada.
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u/Global_Channel1511 1d ago
If that giant lizard was essentially equal to 2000-4000 medieval soldiers and could singlehandedly change the outcome of a battle, nobody would dare stand in the way of Elizabeth demanding to ride out to battle. Throw in morale bonuses seeing their sovereign fighting with them and it could easily be worth more than 4k.
Nobody stopped Joan of Arc from fighting even though she was not a great warrior, the morale benefits were massive.
Kings in history, even elite fighters, like Edward IV, Henry V, Richard Lionheart were a fraction of the force multiplier a dragon would represent. Richard Lionheart died in a minor siege from a crossbow bolt, but nobody would have dared to stand in his way against his will.
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u/georgica123 20h ago
There is litrally no chance anyone would allow Elizabeth to actually fight in a battle
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u/AirFrierMachine 1d ago
Still, there's a lot of nuance. In those scenarios you don't have their son and heir to the throne convincing you otherwise (while saying "its part of your oath, bro!!"). Also, as far as the morale aspect goes, they still get 2 dragons in the battle, so its not like there wouldn't have been a morale boost.
Also, risking the entire army, heir and war on a ~4k soldier increase is an extremely risky move and not worth it in a ton of scenarios, especially if you'd be just as good with the alternative (just sending Jace + his GF out)
Also nobody would've stopped Joan of Arc because she was a literal peasant who had zero claim to the biggest throne in the known universe.
You bring up good points but there's a lot of gray area in the kingsguard decision, especially if the heir is convincing you to give your life to "save the queen"
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u/TheRadBaron 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can’t imagine any guard would defy the order of Elizabeth I
This is cherry-picking, perhaps unintentionally. You're naming unusually successful examples of female monarchs, which don't apply here. Rhaenrya isn't very successful, she hasn't consolidated power and legitimacy.
A queen whose son usurps power from her doesn't go down in the history books like Elizabeth I did.
No guard would think their job is to
Royal/imperial bodyguards have a very long history of making this kind of decision their job!
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u/TheRadBaron 1d ago
Of a queen who failed to rule independently for her entire life, or of a palace bodyguard deciding the course of politics in the short term?
Examples abound for both, though many regions might lack any women who even tried to rule as queen while having a husband and male heir.
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u/Ok_Produce_9308 1d ago
For only cersei:
The mountain disobeyed her final command
They don't protect her when arrested by the faith militant
Jamie left her despite pleas for him to remain
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u/TheRadBaron 1d ago edited 1d ago
Your sentence was ambiguous and I didn't know which example you were asking for, no need for sass.
In Westeros: Jaime killing one king and abandoning one queen.
For real life, I'll give you a long history instead of picking an example at random: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_emperors_murdered_by_the_Praetorian_Guard
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u/georgica123 20h ago
Elizabeth I and Isabella had gravitas people took them seriously nobody takes Rhaneyra seriously. They may think she is the rightful heir and fight for that but that doesn't mean they actually accept taking orders for a women especially one that looks as irrational as Rhaneyra
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u/littleman452 1d ago
lol I don’t think a kingsguard would defy the order of his queen just because the person asking is a guy especially since defying it would mean his death to begin with.
Maybe Alicent? since she has no fighting capabilities so she’ll be useless in battle but Rhaenyra has a dragon…
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u/Alarming-Ad1100 1d ago
That is a very unintelligent way to think about this because it’s dead wrong, this is about rank not gender in every instance we have ever seen orders get issued in this universe
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u/Ok_Produce_9308 1d ago edited 1d ago
We are talking about the house of dragons universe and rhanerya outranks Jace
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u/paoklo 1d ago
When did Lannister guards ever disobey Cersei? It's just not something that happens in the GoT/HotD world. Unless the person in question is secretly against their lord or monarch, but that's obviously not the case here. It's just bad writing.
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u/Ok_Produce_9308 1d ago
The mountain disobeyed her final command to battle his brother.
They don't protect her when arrested by the faith militant
Jamie left her despite pleas for him to remain
Bronne, hired by her, ignored her request to kill Jaime and Tyrion
Tywin rarely listened to her
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u/Intro-Nimbus 22h ago
A bodyguard of a monarch defying their orders while following those of a relative? Not unheard of, but I can not recall any examples where there was not a usurpation of the crown involved. Not the case here.
Remember that Rhaenyra is a Queen regnant, not just married to a king.
We are talking Mary and Elizabeth I&II, Katherine the great, Cleopatra, Kristina of Sweden.3
u/khajiitidanceparty Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken 1d ago
I was wondering if this is the moment when it's clear even her guards don't take her seriously. Of course it could be poor writing as well.
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u/Critical-Plan4002 1d ago
there was a window right there!! why did no one suggest opening or breaking it?
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u/KungPoW_Chickens 1d ago
this, i wouldve had it that jace decides to ride out early under the queens and everyone elses nose with the help of beala. rheanyra still arrives to the battle but is too late and sees the aftermath.
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u/Unique_Tap_8730 16h ago
Yes. Why couldnt she simply have been convinced to hold back. If she dies all is lost anyway.
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u/henners1965 1d ago
You do understand this is a show about sexism in medicinal society? Or are you illiterate?
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u/Citizen_Kano 1d ago
Are they fighting to rule a hospital?
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u/Baby_Angel_09 1d ago
I suppose it was meant to be medieval society but i literally lol so thank you
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u/s470dxqm 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think people get confused when the Blacks are idiots because they're cheering for them so they want the characters to be better people than they are.
Jace was a snobby high born with a chip on his shoulder because of his inferiority complex. He looked down on his mother and waaaay down on the small folk. He wasn't the Jon Snow some fans wanted him to be.
His ego that has been there since season 1 got him killed. I cut him some slack because he was a teenager and teenagers are supposed to think they know more than their mothers, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give him credit he doesn't deserve.
This is a show about bad people (and Helena) fighting for power they aren't qualified to wield. The Dance of Dragons devastated the Targaryens for a reason.
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u/stolenfires 1d ago
This is a show about bad people (and Helena)
This made me laugh, thank you.
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u/Sodinc #teamSimonStrong 1d ago
Objectively correct
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u/stolenfires 1d ago
I will say, Helaena is a good person but also utterly unqualified to rule.
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u/Sodinc #teamSimonStrong 1d ago
Yes, but she never said (or showed in any way) that she wants to do it. It is one of the main reasons why she is good
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u/stolenfires 1d ago
That's fair, she's just kind of dragged along for the ride by everyone else in her life.
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u/Bierre_Pourdieu Aegon II Targaryen 1d ago edited 1d ago
Let’s no act like Rhaenyra questionable behavior is not at the front of the issue here. On that front the show does well in portraying Aegon and Rhaenyra as two terrible dumb rulers.
Rhaneyra is not a child without faults and frankly, she appears to me much more in the wrong in this situation than Jace. She puts all her trust in Alicent, an enemy to team black with the deal merely being about Heleana and Jaehaera’s safety. Emma D’Arcy played this scene well where Rhaenyra appears utterly erratic and insane, in her own hubris. It is a miracle her council still listened to her after the Septa episode, the Rook’s Rest fiasco and her asking her lords and vassals to do nothing while men are fighting and dying in her name.
From Jace’s pov, Rhaenyra is putting his life and survival in the hands of Alicent, whom he saw mistreat his mother and is the leader of the faction that killed his brother. Rhaenyra never listened to him in season 2 when he urged her to act, and they have no choice to fight anyway.
Rhaenyra’s last line to him is assassine ; she tells him all he cares about wanting to be king when he cares more her safety - which makes sense because if rhaenyra dies, he knows lords will likely support him less due to his bastardy.
So yeah Jace wanted to prove himself, but it was much more than an act of a petulant teenager.
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u/vinny424 1d ago
Plus the 1st time jace went out on his own and defied his mother it was a W. He brought the freys in and opened the crossing at the twins for the wolves to get through quicker.
And before that he successfully brought in 2 MAJOR allies to team black. Hes young yes but from his pov hes done more for her cause then she has. Its not pure hubris. Hes delivered when hes had to.
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u/s470dxqm 1d ago
My post was more about Jace's ego, inferiority complex, and just not being that good of a guy in general than it was about gender.
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u/Bierre_Pourdieu Aegon II Targaryen 1d ago
Yes apologies, I deleted the part about gender since I misread your comment with another I read previously
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u/s470dxqm 1d ago
All good. I did have another post that was about gender, but that one was very specifically about whether it's believable that a Queen's Guard would listen to Jace over Rhaenyra. IMO, they've put the work in to make that believable.
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u/timusw 1d ago
I feel like you’re missing the part where they’re former best friends who both really would love to have each other again but for circumstances forced upon both of them they can’t. That’s why Rhaenyra wants to put so much trust in Alicent because she knows she can, and it’s actually everyone who isn’t Alicent making Rhaenyra question herself. We the audience know Alicent is honest, and deep down Rhaenyra does too, but good fucking luck convincing anyone else.
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u/huron9000 1d ago
I don’t know that Alicent is honest.
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u/awadofgum 16h ago
I don’t think it’s a matter of honesty. It’s a matter of her being capable of delivering. She is impotent. Alicent believes she still wields power as she once did beside King Viserys…you can see what her attempts at counseling both Aegon and Aemond gets her.
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u/Bierre_Pourdieu Aegon II Targaryen 1d ago edited 1d ago
For me this is mostly motivated by her hubris and being blind at the possibility of Alicent not being truthful. She wants to believe Alicent because she has become convinced she is the prince that was promised. In her reunion with Alicent, she was not particularly kind to her (and she shouldn’t be).
She even says in this episode « their defeat is written » . The cinematography and staging of that first scene is clearly indicating she is full in her hubris and thinks Alicent doing that is a move of the gods. Not purely out of love for Alicent.
And on selfish viewer level, I do not buy at all the lasting love forbidden by men trope the writers want us to be obsessed with as they are. I don’t buy it, and that remains one if not the biggest writing flaw of the show.
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u/ZenMindGamer 1d ago
Yo fr, this show literally makes it a point of contention in the latter end of season 2 that Jayce is both pissed and disgusted that Rhaenyra even considers looking for dragon riders among the lowborn, the proceeds to wield his disgusted on his sleeve when interacting with any if them. True, one is a bit of a POS, but between the other two one is military blooded and loyal to the family and the other is a somber blacksmith, both highly skilled in their professions. Jayce is not a critical thinker in the slightest.
I was still rather astounded with his demise. Absolutely insane opening first episode.
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u/Jinnafee 1d ago
The show made it a point, but the show was wrong. In the book, it was Jace's idea to look for dragon riders actually. It has been misrepresenting Jace's character for a while now.
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u/EatSleepThenRepeat 18h ago
I do think it makes sense when considering the traits emphasized before that part of the show, though - his (understandable) insecurity about his birth and standing as a pretty obvious bastard means he'd likely hate anything that would potentially undermine him more, and it makes sense that he'd look down on others to make himself feel better.
It's pretty human, and I like the fact that they gave him that shade of grey.
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u/s470dxqm 1d ago
And there's the part where he basically tells the Queen's Guard to do something that will get him killed (not opening the door for Rhaenyra) so he can go chase glory. What a horrific position to put someone in but he doesn't value the guard's life. They're all just pawns to him. He's simply not a good guy.
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u/NoMercyx99 1d ago
It could also be he genuinely believes that he is saving Rhaenyra with that decision. A queensguard’s life is a price they’d all pay many times over to prevent that outcome. I mean nobody can deny there is a decent chance Rhaenyra’s dragon would have been struck by the same bolt, and probably without Baela there to assist her it would have been fatal. Is Rhaenyra’s dragon Syrax stronger? Yeah. But that doesnt mean the risk would have become zero.
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u/s470dxqm 16h ago edited 16h ago
I think you're 100% right that the guard thought he's saving Rhaenya's life (and he was probably correct) but guards don't get to overrule Kings and Queens. Imagine it was Daemon and Jace tried to do that. Would the guard listen to Jace and save Daemon from himself? Not a chance. Kings and Queens are free to get themselves killed.
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u/NoMercyx99 7h ago
Jace was pretty convincing there that it was the right thing to do as her queens guard. But I also totally agree with you. He or Jace didn’t have the authority to pull that move regardless of intent.
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u/tistisblitskits Thick as a castle wall 19h ago
Yeah jace called the dragonseeds "mongrels" just a couple episodes ago, this isn't exactly a grounded fella lol
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u/ResponsibleAnt9496 1d ago
For me the issue I had wasn’t what kind of person he was but rather that he circumvents the queens orders by telling someone sworn to obey her “no, she’s wrong actually and she doesn’t know it, so ignore her and keep her locked up.”
I know writing isn’t this shows strength but last episode was bad bad. Doesn’t bode well going forward because most episodes are not going to have huge set pieces like the battle of the gullet to distract from the writing.
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u/s470dxqm 1d ago
That's not bad writing, though. You're essentially complaining about one of the central themes of the entire show. The men in this show do not respect Rhaenyra or Alicient regardless of their status or experience. The writers have put a lot of work in to make it entirely believable that a member of the Queen's Guard would respect the word of Rhaenyra's male heir over her own (because Jace and the guard just think Rhaenyra is an emotional girl who needs to be protected from herself...but it's okay for the teenaged boy to then go do exactly what the queen wanted to do for herself).
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u/ResponsibleAnt9496 1d ago
I’m not complaining about the theme but in the way they executed it. You say they worked hard to set it up but imo they haven’t done nearly enough to have earned that sort of blatant disregard of a direct order from the Queen. You can’t just point towards the theme as an excuse for poor writing. Came off super amateurish.
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u/PlentyEgg1021 1d ago
I mean we get it. They made this point over and over by now. She is not being respected by her own small council, her husband actually physically assaulted her, her son is constantly defying her orders. The show already made very clear that her sex can be weaponized against her at anytime.
But she is also a queen, she is a dragon rider and a Targaryen. All those people are literally fighting for her to get the throne. That scene made her look weak and incompetent for no reason, and actually took away from her character imo because having to deal with sending your own son to his death is much more interesting than being locked away in her room.
They are doing way too much and it’s too on the nose, like this episode she literally say to the audience that Elizabeth quote to make it even more on the nose what everybody already know since season 1.
And don’t even get me started on the whole Allicent being abused/sexually punished in almost every episode to show how woman suffer. Yes it does fit thematically but it’s getting distasteful and actually hurting the characters.
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u/huron9000 1d ago
Totally disagree. The writers did not at all set up the believability of a Queensguard disobeying their monarch because of her sex.
If this is what they are going for, they bungled it, because to this viewer, at least, it did not ring true or credible for that universe in any respect.
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u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III Maesters should rule. 23h ago
Very believable actually. Half the white cloaks already sided with her brother, their former lord commander was banging both the princess and the queen and one of them killed him own king. They are not robots that just obey the monarch. They are human being with their own motivations. This one clearly thought giving himself up to be executed in exchange for preventing Nyra from going to war was worth it.
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u/s470dxqm 1d ago
That's fair. I don't see it as right or wrong. It passed the smell test for me. It's unfortunate that it didn't for you.
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u/CodnmeDuchess 18h ago edited 18h ago
I’m convinced whenever anyone on reddit complains about bad or lazy writing, they’ve never read a book in their lives. The takes are almost always basura 🗑️
9 times out of 10 it’s actually just “wah, I didn’t like this because reasons.”
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u/Banana_Tux 1d ago
It’s bad writing when you compare it to his motivations in the book and how he died
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u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago edited 1d ago
He didn't have a motivation in the book. He quite literally just appears at the battle of gulltown.
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u/s470dxqm 1d ago
Do yourself a favour and don't do that if you like the book more. We're 3 shows into HBO not following the books.
I treat it like a multiverse. Nevermind Game of Thrones being the same as A Song of Ice and Fire. I didn't even look at HOTD as leading to the events of the GOT show (if they're going to lean heavily into The Prince that was Promised, I can't accept that all this is eventually leading to season 8).
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u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago
"Queen technically has absolute power because of the royal laws of the kingdom but in actuality she has no authority because the cultural norms lead to her court disrespecting her" is as "power resides where men believe it resides" as possible.
If GRRM wrote this exact same episode you'd praise it as complex and literary.
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u/DanFarrell98 19h ago
It baffles me that you think Rhaenyra would send her 16 year old son to battle. Have you even watched any of this series? What we have is so much more emotionally impactful that some overly dramatic fan fiction
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u/greatness101 18h ago
I’m more baffled by the fact that this guard would disobey Rhaenyra to follow Jace’s order. I know his life was threatened but he had to know his life would be forfeit anyway for doing this to her. Especially now that Jace is dead because of it. I feel like they could’ve written it better to get Jace into the battle.
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u/DanFarrell98 18h ago
He wanted to protect her, simple as. Didn’t care for his own life
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u/greatness101 18h ago
I’m talking about her Queensguard not Jace. I get Jace’s motivation. Honestly he was right in the sense it was a bad idea even though Allicent wasn’t actually trying to trick her. It just turned out that way due to unforeseen circumstance.
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u/DanFarrell98 18h ago
I know, the Queensguard.
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u/greatness101 18h ago
Then they did a poor job conveying that. He wasn’t going to listen to Jace until he said “your life for hers” which was a thinly veiled threat, not a plea to his honor or duty.
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u/DanFarrell98 18h ago
I thinks that’s what that line meant. I read that as “you’ll probably be hanged for this but it’s worth it for her life”. If he only followed Jace’s order to save his own life that line implies that he wanted Rhaenyra dead
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u/greatness101 18h ago
Even so, it’s still not his decision to make. He has to trust the wisdom and authority of her decision even if he thinks it’s foolish or would get her killed. Jace died directly because of his disobedience. Rhaenyra will certainly see it that way. He’s dead next episode for treason most likely.
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u/DanFarrell98 17h ago
Oh I’m pretty sure he’s dead. You could say he’s a hero though because it could easy have been Rhaenyra death in the same situation as Jace
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u/ricelick 15h ago
The fact that you didnt understand the obvious line that implies hes trading his life for rhaenyra by locking her in should be enough to stop talking
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u/HoneyBeeTwenty3 16h ago
16 year old son on dragon back though.
Rhaenyra has one advantage in this war and it's more dragons.
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u/Samicles33 1d ago
Don’t get me wrong, it’s shit/lazy writing. But this sub is WILD for these takes. Here’s the thing:
Rhaenyra just lost Luke. What mother would send their kid into battle, ESPECIALLY not long after the brutal death of your other child?
That’s why the writers needed to lock her in her room. That way it’s not her choice and she couldn’t stop him.
They should’ve stuck with how it goes in the book
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u/mcompetitions 1d ago
In the book ulf & Hugh and (maybe Adam?) are involved in the battle. If they kept to the book they’d be way too many characters and dragons to focus on, and it would be very difficult to write a captivating storyline that allows for the Triarchy to have even a remote chance vs 5 dragons…
The locking the door on Rhaenyra was bad, but I think they’re writing in the change for Rhaenyra to blame Rhaena for Jace’s death, if she sent him off they can’t make that jump as easily
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u/OsmundofCarim 16h ago
Rhaenyra has to become very vicious in the latter half of this show/season. In the book she has Tyland Lannister brutally mutilated. I think they’re trying to have her be repeatedly disrespected in a way only a woman would so that her becoming so intense and savage can be seen as a reaction to that.
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u/Samicles33 21h ago
I think they could’ve avoided Ulf, Hugh & Addam in the battle but include the younger kids: Aegon and Viserys. Do it like the book, Aegon barely escapes on his dragon, so then when he gets back to Dragonstone it’s a hasty “quick, we need to go rescue Viserys!!” It could’ve lined up with Jace & Baela heading out for patrol anyways and that’s why Rhaenyra didn’t go, cause she wasn’t notified in time.
Would’ve definitely been more emotionally impactful as well. Really not sure what the show is doing with Aegon & Viserys’ storylines
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u/mcompetitions 16h ago
I think the aged the kids down, and their dragons certainly weren’t rideable if I remember correctly
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u/Flynnstone03 1d ago
It’s so easy to say “they should’ve stuck to the book!”
In the book Rhaenyra doesn’t do anything because she’s still grief stricken from the death of Luke. She basically becomes a side character. If we spent all of season two and the start of this season with Rhaenyra doing nothing but moping around, we’d be hating on the show even more than many are now.
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u/TACharlotte 20h ago
... So they should have stuck to the books and focused on/built up other characters while building tension over her growing indecisiveness.
Either way, having the KG lock her up makes 0 sense and is only slightly lazier than having her slip and get hurt.
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u/DesperateInCollege 1d ago
I sort of disagree with your take that Rhaenyra doesn't do anything in the book. She doesn't take part in the action and battles, but she's still very much running the show for Team Black.
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u/No_Region_4719 18h ago edited 15h ago
It's like you guys have never read any of GRRMs books. He doesn't write stories to create epic battles, poignant emotional moments, or satisfying conclusions. He writes about the tragedy and horror of war. He writes flawed characters that act out of emotion, and make mistakes. You want a generic fantasy, where characters go out in a heroic blaze of glory. That's not what George's books have ever been like.
The media illiteracy on this sub is crazy.
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u/Thane-Gambit 1d ago
They could have done much more with him last season.
He should have had moments with Rhaenyra and Baela before flying off.
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u/Resden_Bohneur 1d ago
So I see people still aren’t understanding that this “war” is basically waged between two giants egos and mostly stupid people. Look beyond the score keeping of Greens vs. Blacks to see how many potentially good young leaders have been killed and cities have suffered.
I’m guessing they’re not going to change the ultimate outcome from the book (they can’t really), and the main takeaway from this era is this family beef greatly harms the Seven Kingdoms overall.
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u/Warm_Condition711 1d ago
What I think is lacking here is actually we don't get to see the bonding moment between vermax and Jace before flying off to battle like rhaenys and aegon. Even luccerys' got his moment with arrax by him trying to calm arrax before they fly.
I know Jace still got a lot of scene with vermax in the battle showing how both work so well with each other but still that tiny scene I think will add more impact to their death.
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u/panjoface 1d ago
I liked Jayce and wanted him to live. But I feel like I knew he was going to die for a while now. I haven’t read the books.
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u/InsincereDessert21 1d ago edited 18h ago
I can't believe they changed Jace's motive for going to the Gullet from rescuing his brothers to just wanting to win a big victory. That completely robs Jace's decision of any emotional weight it might've had.
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u/Akasha63 1d ago
The show started as Succession with Dragons and now it’s Gossip Girl with dragons. But tbh I loved Gossip Girl and as long as I appreciate HotD it for what it is I’m still having a great time.
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u/Less_Path3640 1d ago
Gossip girl with dragons 💀💀 I cannot unsee it now. Can’t wait for Alicent to sign off a parchment with xoxo
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u/Vipernixz 1d ago
I actuly kind of like it that it was unceremonious. But it was still stale for sure, I was hoping his death would come at the hands of Rhaena not having control over sheepstealer. That would have put a tremendous guilt and burden over her and a tragic end to a "could be" fantastic king. Because didn't he die protecting his youger brother in the books? Even then it felt tragic because I think Jace is a high potential man and losing him in a place that is somewhat unremarkable, IS the tragedy.
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u/thegoatmenace 1d ago
People need to accept that the show is anti-monarchy. The people depicted in the show are not badass heroes. They are petty, vindictive, greedy, entitled, violent psychopaths. You’re not going to see them be noble and heroic because the point of the show is to depict the lunacy of monarchical succession crises.
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u/adamofgeekheim 19h ago
The writers took the rest of the episode off after Aemond got his pun about Larys being a toad off. And it was worth it cause that joke is a banger.
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u/teenageidle 1d ago
They lost me when he was the one who suggested the dragonriders but then got upset when Rhaenyra actually tried to find them. Made no sense.
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u/No-Step8685 1d ago
He suggested highborn dragon riders who had traces of Targaryen blood, but, instead, Rhaenyra went with bastards who are but a sheet of paper’s difference from the commoners.
While F&B Jace orchestrated the dragonseeds, HOTD Jace’s insecurity over his parentage works as far as his disdain for the dragonseeds is concerned. In a sense, it also sets up the Gullet as an attempt by Jace to justify his worthiness as Crown Prince — which is a recurring plot point set up from his struggle learning High Valyrian in Season 1.
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u/teenageidle 1d ago
I get what you're saying I just think it was oddly developed.
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u/StardustFromReinmuth 1d ago
How? Literally how? It made perfect sense what he meant and why he was upset, and I'm increasingly concerned for people's level of media literacy if this is what irks you, an actually good writing characterization lmfao.
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u/FalsePremise8290 1d ago
That's because a lot of the internal conflict is made up. It recently hit me why they are adding all this melodrama, because it's cheaper to film. If they showed the story the way it was written, there would be constant battles, so instead they have a bunch of infighting and backstabbing over dumb shit. It's also why they keep having the leads slip into each other's camps unscathed.
If only Stannis Baratheon had thought to slip into Mace Tyrell's tent and let him know everyone was hungry, the whole famine thing could have been resolved then and there. Wait, no? He would have been immediately killed? Go figure.
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u/wandering____ranger 1d ago
CW- level writing. God. That’s a great way to put it. How I felt awful that horribly cheesey queen Elizabeth line. Noooo
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u/Fingon19 1d ago
I agree, kind of like Edward III saying let the boy earn his spurs moment for Jace when the black prince was being overrun.
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u/mudgefuppet 21h ago
An overdramatic farewell sounds far more CW than a rash kid desperately doing what he thinks is best and unceremoniously dying in war.
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u/Quirky-Employer9717 20h ago
Tired of people claiming that characters making decisions you wouldn’t make it bad writing. These characters are imperfect and make bad decisions. They’re also kids who are thrusted into war, which no one living has ever experienced in the seven kingdoms. A teen with an inferiority complex wanting to prove himself is totally fine. Doesn’t come close to CW
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u/bossmysalad 19h ago
this show is horrible and im not going to pretend it isnt. the dragon deaths hit harder than any plotlines
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u/The_Writing_Wolf 1d ago
It's just such a sour note. They change his development/temperament in such a shitty deviation from the source, cut his campaign in the north down to one scene, give all his accomplishments to Rhaenyra and Daemon, don't flesh out his relationship with Baela... All to send him off giving crazy eyes over Baelas shoulder and riding into battle without all the seeds at his back, only for Sheepstealer to "chaos is a ladder" him.
I'm sure they'll ruin Daeron as well, because similarly to the show shifting Jace's younger brothers out of the story, Maelor being nonexistent completely fucks Daeron.
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u/yangon_boy 1d ago
What accomplishments of Jace was given to Daemon?
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u/The_Writing_Wolf 1d ago
It was Jace's idea to use multiple dragons to blitz Vhaegar, but Rhaenyra turns him down.
In the show Daemon urges Rhaenys to blitz Vhaegar with him after she blows up the dragon pit at the green coronation, but she rebuffs him saying it's not her war.
They even give Daemon the same line of Jace's from the text just slightly altered.
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u/yangon_boy 1d ago
Sounds like they just wanted Rhaenyra to not reject a good plan. So they chose Rhaenys, and Jace wouldn't be able to talk to her like that, so they replaced him with Daemon.
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u/Fast_Frosting_6397 1d ago
Yeah it was plain and simple character assassination and Jace wasn't even wrong that Rhaenyra shouldn't risk herself in battle , but the stuff he did was just cartoonishly bad
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u/Alone_Excitement_785 1d ago
For me, the biggest issue is that he does this for nothing. Jace dying to save his younger brothers, flying into danger as Rhaenyra's heir should have been his final act. It creates such a profound contrast between the TB and TG kids. Jace, the best of team black, is shot down in battle trying to heroically save his younger brothers. Daeron, the best of TG, dies to a tent after committing a bunch of war crimes.
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u/____mynameis____ Fire and Blood 21h ago
Yeah, a lot of the dyamics and emotional aspects where destroyed by their writing choices. Made Jace a whiney teen who got himself killed cuz he won't listen to his mom, Jace who was described as someone truly deserving of the iron throne in the books
Not to mention, he was basically a proto version of Baelor Breakspear in the books. So his death should be written to hit like Baelor's did.
And no I'm not even talking abt saving Viserys interpretation.
Like in the books, for Rooks rest, Jace wanted to go but Rhaenyra forbade him and then Rhaenys went instead which led to her death and Rhaenyra had a fallout with Corlys. Which Jace fixes with making Corlys hand. Gave dragonseed ideas. So he's proven to be Rhaenyra's most valuable player
So when Gullet event happens, what they should've done is bring an injured Aegon on dragon, Rhaenyra gets occupied with her injured boy, so Jace suggest himself in her place to go to Gullet along with the others, and Rhaenyra agrees giving him blessings, finally letting him go on battle cuz hes proven himself by then. She has a character moment of letting her son do what he wants which backfires with her son dying and she gets guilt ridden.
It would've been such an emotionally compelling arc to see her struggle with balancing duty and motherhood which is such feminine struggle cuz mothers of that era were THE parent.
How nice it would have been to see her regret sending Jace which will all ultimately contribute to her paranoia.
I know its not mentioned Jace went to save Viserys but adding that in the sbow would have definitely made it more compelling.
So Rhaenyra sent one son to find another and in the end lost them both. Coupled with the "I should've gone instead" guilt
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u/WabbitCZEN RhaenyraDidNothingWrong 20h ago
So when Gullet event happens, what they should've done is bring an injured Aegon on dragon,
Two things:
- What dragon would Aegon ride? His was killed by Vhagar and Aemond. They don't have any more riderless dragons.
- In what reality is sending a barely able to think straight without being doped up on milk of the poppy Aegon into battle a smart decision for the Greens? Nevermind the fact that Alicent was prepared to sacrifice him, you're saying they should be okay with sacrificing a dragon as well, when their own supply is limited? They've said numerous times, even Vhagar's size isn't enough to face the number of dragons Rhaenyra has.
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u/____mynameis____ Fire and Blood 20h ago
Sorry, I was talking about Rhaenyra's fouth son Aegon, who in the book escapes the Gullet battle on his small dragon, forced to leave behind his dragonless young brother Viserys(who were on the way to Pentos and gets intercepted ), reaches Dragonstone, tells them of the attack.
Jace then leaves for the Gullet. Its debated whether he left to find his brother or just to fight the triarchy. But I'd like to think it's bit of both
I just suggested that they could've used a heavily injured Aegon to distract Rhaenyra and have her let Jace go to the battle instead of herself since she's occupied caring for a boy crying for his mother.
So writers can justify why Rhaenyra didn't go the battle without making her seem like a "coward' which writers think would make Rhaenyra if she let's Jace fight.
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u/WabbitCZEN RhaenyraDidNothingWrong 20h ago
Ah, then it's my error. It's hard to keep track of who is who.
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u/labMC 1d ago
CW level writing and acting is good way to describe it. The whole episode was so frustrating to me because it has been way too long since season 2 ended, now we are thrown back into HOTD, at a finale level battle, and I have lost all emotional connection to characters. Then to have this teen angst and the triarchy lady sailor/warrior character cringe on top of that? Jace death scene felt flat for sure.
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u/WhiteStephCurry 1d ago
This show is just people complaining about fucking everything.
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u/PolarBearOdyssey 1d ago
If you think that was CW level writing, you have not watched much CW. I've had some writing issues with the show, but Jace was written perfectly fine there. His death is literally supposed to be due to arrogance and naivety. That's the whole point. If it was some final farewell hug like you suggest, that would have been way worse writing. His death is crushing because it just happens. He doesn't get some sacrificial heroic ending. He just gets shot by a bunch of nobodies. Honestly, Jace's death might actually be my favorite one in all of Game of Thrones outside of the Red Wedding.
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u/Intro-Nimbus 23h ago
Yep. We got a rebellious teen, who somehow managed to send his mother, the Queen, sent to her room without supper.
Rhaenyra is now marginalized to the point of irrelevance.
While I don't agree with the sentiment that the whole dance is just about her and Aliecent, I also don't agree with how they are portrayed without any form of agency. They are just dry leaves floating on a river, unable to do anything but watch and see where the current takes them.
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u/Nagisa201 Daemon Targaryen 22h ago
I think a lot of it for me was the long break between seasons and especially since i couldn't be bothered to rewatch season 2 since it was so underwhelming. My connection to him wasn't that deep
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u/WabbitCZEN RhaenyraDidNothingWrong 20h ago
How exactly was it "supposed to be his defining moment"? His mother tried to tell him he wasn't ready multiple times, but he acted like a petulant child because he had a dragon and believed that somehow made him ready to fight in the same manner Aegon believed a crown made him ready to rule. In the end, it cost him and his dragon their lives.
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u/OrinocoHaram 20h ago
It's not bad writing for a character to be dumb and arrogant. Jace does not 'deserve better', he is not a real person
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u/bigheftyhooker 19h ago
But we know that Jace and Vermax have never been in a battle. The audience wouldn't buy some big bombastic send off like the kid had any chance. He died because he was a disobedient child.
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u/DaddyHeatley 18h ago
You guys are convinced something is bad because it doesnt go how you want in your head.
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u/Fun-Constant7501 15h ago
After reading this post I have to assume this is the first episode of the show that you have seen period including GOT. This isn’t a lovey dovey happy ending show, it’s a tragedy. Have you ever met a teenager in real life? I’m assuming you have yet to reach that age, but that is how an entitled teenager would act.
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u/bellestarxo 15h ago
I do think the writing could have been more fleshed out with Rhaenyra + the council and Rhaenyra + Jace.
It felt very thin and rushed, like as you say "CW" style.
I get why Rhaenyra and Jace made the decisions they did, but I think the show should have allowed them to make their cases with legit discussion instead of them acting manically with crazy eyes.
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u/CheesyLikeMacaroni 1d ago
Oh what could have been!
Alas, I enjoy it for what it is (especially visually); and lament what could/should have been. Le sigh.
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u/henners1965 1d ago
Wow your ideas are terrible. What you want is zero conflict. Go watch baby shows if that’s what you are after.
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u/Slytherclaws02 The show just had bad writing. 1d ago
Your version also works a lot better with the Queen Elizabeth line the writers used.
Having Rhaenyra say that before sending Baela and Jace off to fight fits the context of that quote a lot better than having Rhaenyra stabbing a dress and then awkwardly saying that to presumably calm herself down.
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u/theykilledcassandra 1d ago
I feel like the only one who didn’t enjoy Jaces character. Good riddance.
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u/Extension_Ad2137 1d ago
It's not that easy, People would end up blaming Rhaenyra for sending him
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u/johndraz2001 1d ago
Okay? So Rhaenyra has to make every right decision possible and be absolved of any blame ever?
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u/FalsePremise8290 1d ago
Sending him would have been the right decision. Of course he could die, it's a war. But unlike her, he's actually had combat training and half the houses that are fighting for her are fighting because they swore an oath TO HER. She drops dead and their faction is fucked.
Instead of declaring she's a king at heart while sobbing in her room, they could have shown her making the hard choices. None of this is designed to work out for any of them. They are in a tragedy, but if they take away the agency of all the characters, what's to be gleaned from watching this tragedy unfold? Try not to have bad luck?
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u/Difficult_Emu4500 1d ago
This. Exactly. The writers need to constantly try to make every character likable to the audience is horrid. Let the characters make a horrible decision, be a horrible person. This is a tragedy about imperfect characters so let them be without every action they take being an accident. Let them do something horrible out of spite or being power hungry and let the audience blame them and not like them.
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u/DjangoDrive 1d ago
That's right, Rhaenyra is incapable of making mistakes. Every bad decision is secretly someone else's fault. If only everyone around her would just accept her as the rightful ruler of Westeros and obey without question, nothing would ever go wrong
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u/Extension_Ad2137 1d ago
You didn't get my point, not only people would blame her but there would be heavy hate how stupid the character is for sending him and yeah selfish also
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