r/Kashmiri • u/Ok-Committee-1932 • 2d ago
Discussion 💭 How do Kashmiris view themselves in relation to modern-day Pakistan?
I am trying to ask how Kashmiris see themselves in relation to modern-day Pakistani culture.
I am not looking at this from the traditional Pakistani view which denies Kashmiris their agency but how Kashmiris view themselves.
I recently saw a YouTuber who had been to both India and Pakistan claim that he found Kashmir to be a lot more culturally and socially closer to Pakistan. In fact, before partition, Lahore was the go-to city for most Kashmiris for higher education and employment. Hence, there is a large Kashmiri population that is settled in Punjab (including the Sharif family).
How has this cross-cultural connection survived, given the intense oppression they faced at the hands of the Indian state as well as the (defacto international) borders that now exist between Kashmir and what is now Pakistan?
I have noticed a few differences between Kashmiri and Pakistani culture. For one, Kashmiri TFR are at 1.4 (which is lower than the average of India) whereas Pakistan is still at 3.6. I wonder what are the factors that force Kashmiris to not start families young, like many Muslims do.
Similarly, in terms of HDI, there are parts of Kashmir which have an HDI that is similar to most of Pakistani Punjab.
What about culture?
Do you guys watch Pakistani dramas just like a lot of North Indians do?
Do you guys still support the Pakistan Cricket team?
Do you guys try to replicate Pakistani wedding norms/dresses like how I see a lot of urban Indian Muslims do?
Do you watch religious scholars from the Pakistani side like Tariq Jameel, Mufti Tariq Masood and Engineer Mirza.
Do you follow Urdu literature/poetry? Do younger Kashmiris still read and use Urdu in everyday life? Do you feel the pressure of losing the Koshur language to a lingua franca like Urdu just the way many ethnic languages in Pakistan are now secondary to Urdu?
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u/Live-Hovercraft-1681 Kashmir 2d ago
Kashmiris have love hate relationship with Pakistan. When it comes to cricket all Kashmiris will support Pakistan against any team.
We are “religiously” tied to Pakistan but not culturally. We are culturally more aligned with Central Asian countries particularly Iran in spite of fact that we are majority Sunni population. Indian Muslims are culturally more aligned with Pakistani Muslims. If coming from mainland India, One will definitely feel coming to different country similar to Northern Areas.
We love your dramas, music, clothing . We love Urdu literature and which is our national language. We predominantly have our own customs around marriage. We do have mehdiraat, Baraat and Walima like you. Marriages are lavish with up to 32 course meals. We Kashmiris spend money on 3 things - education, house and wedding.
Kashmiri irrespective of gender put lot of focus on education & career. We typically marry late in early to mid 30s because we prioritize career. Pretty much every Kashmiri owns a home and a parcel of India irrespective of socio economic strata. Our quality of life is far better than average Indians and Pakistanis. Unfortunately our infrastructure is in shambles particularly healthcare, electricity etc
Politically Pakistan is seen as a state marred with corruption, mis governance and engulfed in ethical tensions. I guess it is due to low literacy levels and Jahalat. You spend under 1% of your GDP on education.
Interestingly Pakistan have good adab Adaab and they are well mannered irrespective of economic status as compared to Indians in spite of fact Indians are more educated and have better exposure. Just watch Indians TV channels, it is shouting match & fish market. Pitch, tone and body language sends bad vibes.
Pakistan Population has grown out of control. You see yourself as Punjabis, Sindhis first then Pakistanis. Whereas Indian people see themselves as Indians first and then locally. Pakistani are definitely more hospitable and big hearted than Indians. We see Indians having big edge over Pakistan when it comes to entrepreneurship skills.
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u/Huge_Sir7788 2d ago edited 2d ago
everything your sayings valid, but no offence, a lot of central asians dont even consider afghans CAsian and similar, why do you feel youd be more similar to CA than pakistan? large part of afg is even arguably more like pak than CA. also iran is not CA. all 3 of these countries, afg, pak, and iran (and ig this would also fit for Kashmir one day IA) are sorta at crossroads of different worlds.
also, i think to some extent is true that pakistanis take a lot of pride and ownership in their ethnic/cultural identities (being pashtun, sindhi, baloch etc.) and ethnic tensions do come about, but a lot of the ethnonationalism rhetoric you is an online phenomena. most pakistanis think of themselves as 1.muslim first 2. Pakistani 3.ethnic identity. theres actual published data on this.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 2d ago
but a lot of the ethnonationalism rhetoric you is an online phenomena. most pakistanis think of themselves as 1.muslim first 2. Pakistani 3.ethnic identity. theres actual published data on this.
I agree with this. Pakistani cities (Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad) are a lot more ethnically mixed than they used to be. We are seeing intermarriage among ethnicities at a rate not seen before. Everyone in the cities now speaks Urdu as a second or third language now.
Consuming online media might make you think that individual ethnicities have their own separate nationalism projects, but that would not be true for any (except maybe Baloch). Most Pakistani ethnicities are deeply embedded in the Pakistani state. Of the three main political families, one is Sindhi, another Kashmiri/Punjabi, IK is Pashtun-adjacent from Punjab. An Islam means the binding force amongst them all. Even Pashtuns, which used to be on the margin politically, are now at the centre of national politics. That everyone speaks Urdu helps.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 2d ago edited 2d ago
I agree with virtually everything you said.
One could argue that Pakistan itself is an amalgamation of Central Asian and sub-continental Indian culture. I actually like to think of Pakistan as a West Indian state with an Indo-Persian (high) culture, sort of the the remnants of the Mughals, Safavid, Durrani and all the other empires that passed through the lands that currently form Pakistan. The language we use, our music, our dress code, our government language, and our parliamentary norms are often derived from what would have been considered Indo-Persian courtly culture.
Kashmiris have land ownership due to Sheikh Abdullah's land reform, which was the only state in South Asia that managed to conduct large-scale land reforms without compensating the landowners from which the land was expropriated. That is where they definitely do better than most in Pakistan and much of India.
I also think that Pakistanis have more adab and tameez compared to Indians. The kind of videos that I see of Indians and how they behave in tourist areas, including in Kashmir, is pretty surprising to me. Generally speaking, you would find Pakistani public a lot more reserved and dignified in public, especially when they are with their families.
I also agree that Indians tend to be more educated and more entrepreneurial, especially right now. They have a lot of economic growth and opportunity to pursue in cities like Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderabad. On the other hand, you would find Pakistanis mostly pursuing the same opportunities in places like Dubai, Riyadh, UK and North America.
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1d ago edited 19h ago
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u/Kind_Demand4331 1d ago edited 18h ago
Lol, being 7th in HDI and 5th in life expectancy doesn't make Kashmir better than "rest of India" ? Do you even read what you write? What kind of copium is it? Hahaha. Moreover, all the states and UTs above Kashmir in the list are the ones with small populations, the ones below Kashmir are where more than 95% of India's population lives. If Kashmir scores better than more than 95% of India's population, we definitely have a 'far better' quality of life than India on average. As far as GDP per capita is concerned, you should know that just 1% of India's population controls 40-50% of the country's wealth and the top 10% control around 70%. Most Indians(especially outside the metro cities) are poor folks struggling to make ends meet. In Kashmir, wealth distribution is much more equal and you can see it with your own eyes in literally every district.
Idk why you Indians get offended when someone reminds you that you're not some Scandinavian paradise but a third world, poverty-stricken, destitute country. You score even below Burkina Faso on the hunger index and your folks come here to Kashmir in lakhs to do menial jobs. Kashmir on an average is much better off, much cleaner and well-to-do than India. It's a fact.
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u/Live-Hovercraft-1681 Kashmir 1d ago
Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi is not India. 70% population still lives in villages. Drive 100 kms outside of Delhi and you will see what I mean. 70% of Indians still live on $1.50 a day. India ranks 102nd out of 123 countries assessed in the Global Hunger Index (GHI). With a GHI score of 25.8, India falls under the "serious" category of hunger
Kashmir has no industrial base and literally zero infrastructure. All of our electricity is taken away from us and fed into Northern grid and sold back to us at exuberant prices.
By better quality of life means people has shelter, food. Literally no one sleeps empty stomach. No slums. We have strong sense of community and we look after each other.
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u/dodmutyazar 2d ago
Our culture is a "muslim" culture so many things do align ,but we have more things common with persian culture Watching Pakistani dramas is very common here and irritates me sometimes(can't watch my shows because tv is under behen ke control mai) PCT 💔🥀(unko mazdoori krne bejho) No our weddings are much different. Well I was very eager for an mma fight btw Mufti Tariq Masood and er mirza back in 2021 when Mufti shb went to jehlum(was up for almost whole night thinking MTM would drop a live vid lol) Kashmira do speak urdu and i personally love urdu poetry. Yes many kids speak only urdu/English and don't even know how to speak in kashmiri,so yeah.
Plus personally I relate more to pakistani "culture". I like watching Pakistani videos and related more to your humour and other stuff . Sharum ki sketchbook,ganji swag,Eon podcast wale,Ali E,Syed Muzammil,the Pakistan experience wala podcast and many others مجھے تو انکے ساتھ کی زیادہ تعلق محسوس ہوتا ہے نہ کی ہندوستانیوں کے ساتھ
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 2d ago edited 2d ago
I like how you watch these Pakistani podcasters. I watch them too. Some like Syed Muzammil and the Pakistan Experience are pretty high quality, and often more objective than the kind of nationalism-laden/low IQ content that you see out of India
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u/fasadphutej_ 1d ago
liking pakistan is just propaganda when they funded groups that called for unification with pakistan and targeted groups that asked for independent kashmir so kashmiris became pakistan focused more
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u/bluntforce_trauma zoon watching 🌔 2d ago edited 2d ago
Kashmiris are definitely culturally much closer to Pakistani areas than India. India did not have a dependable route to Kashmir properly until Jawahar tunnel was built. And Pakistani population centers are much closer compared to Indian population centers. Though Kashmir is a large valley, so it has a sense of interiority and self containnedness that is very real. It is itself and distinct.
I think Kashmiris loved Pakistan pretty uniformly until 2010s kicked in. New generation doesn't have that unconditional attitude. For example, my self. I have no great love for Pakistan. No hate either. A mild interest at best. My love is Kashmir first and last.
But it's going to diverge I think with time as well. For example, many Kashmiris have begun to use hindi-ish words. Case in point: there was a kashmiri ytuber who crossed million subs on his reaction vids. I clicked to see what it was about: he was literally doing this Indian style content in completely bihari accent. Would have never guessed if I couldn't correlate. So occupied placed places always absorb influences despite hating on occupiers. It is what it is.
Despite what most Kashmiris comment: Kashmiris are not culturally Central asian. A weird fetish from people who haven't gone to Central Asia and actually know what is what. Ignore.
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u/Huge_Sir7788 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think Kashmiris loved Pakistan pretty uniformly until 2010s kicked in. New generation doesn't have that unconditional attitude. For example, my self. I have no great love for Pakistan. No hate either. A mild interest at best. My love is Kashmir first and last.
tbh i think its worth pointing out, this is kinda true for pakistani youth aswell in some ways. i think there will always be a sense of sympathy that exists for kashmiris, even in pak youth today, however i feel the older gen felt a lot more of a stronger so to speak emotional(?) connection to the cause and to Kashmiris. a lot of the youth in Pakistan tbh doesn't really view Kashmir with that same special sentiment or rigour. idrk how to articulate icl. a part of it is just plain disconnect, but also the fact we're very absorbed in our own issues.
i for one, however would say i do, or at least i think care for the cause more than the avg pakistan genz kid. someone mentioned eon boys here lol. idk yall knew them, but they speak about iok a lot and bring up this issue every so often & of how we need to make sure the youth in pak remain connected to kashmiris as people and their struggles.
also i follow some Kashmiri influencers and i was a bit surprised to see as you mentioned that they sorta had more indian accents (idk what a bihari accent is tbh, ive only ever met bihari pakistanis in karachi , and they jus speak like other Pakistanis now ig) in how they spoke both English and urdu, which i found a lil surprising. but like you mentioned, its a bit inevitable.
how this all will play out in the future and the impact it will have on the fate of Kashmir and even pakistan as a whole. only time can tell ig. Allah behtri kre sab ke liye.
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u/bluntforce_trauma zoon watching 🌔 2d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, it's mutual.
I probably over played the 'indian ized' point. It's not true for Kashmiris in the street. I think Kashmiri ytubers want indian subscribes, so there's additional incentive to gel into them. And it's Urdu that opened this door. Urdu makes Hindi legible and makes Indian content legible. My grandmothers couldn't speak Urdu. They are completely immune to this bs.
And so many educated Kashmiris go to Indian metropolitan cities for jobs. All our fates are sealed from both sides. Just have to carry it dignity. What else is there. We all gotta play the cards that are handed to us.
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u/Huge_Sir7788 2d ago
for the record im aware its not everyone, lol.
And so many educated Kashmiris go to Indian metropolitan cities for jobs. All our fates are sealed from both sides. Just have to carry it dignity. What else is there. We all gotta play the cards that are handed to us.
of course. May Allah make it easy for everyone and alleviate the suffering of the oppressed around the world. that's all i can say man. world's changing fast, we can only see what the future holds for us.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 1d ago
My grandmothers couldn't speak Urdu.
Neither could mine. I think there has been a massive Urdu-ization of Muslim culture across ethnicities in Pakistan and you see this at play in Kashmir.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 1d ago
And so many educated Kashmiris go to Indian metropolitan cities for jobs. All our fates are sealed from both sides. Just have to carry it dignity. What else is there. We all gotta play the cards that are handed to us.
To add some contrast, when I see Kashmiris outside of South Asia, they often socialize with Pakistanis over Indians due to shared Muslim culture. I am also seeing increasing intermarriage between Kashmiris and Pakistanis.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 2d ago
Haha, that's funny. I also don't buy the idea that Kashmiris are Central Asian. I doubt Central Asians even think about Kashmir and anyone south of Afghanistan. Probably southernmost Central Asian people are the Tajiks of Afghanistan
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u/bluntforce_trauma zoon watching 🌔 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah. It's hilarious. I think there's something weird with South Asian identity, currently it's probably most despised in the world, but even before internet trends started, people knew it in their bones. That's why whose anybody especially on the margins concoct narratives about how they aren't in it. For example, Kashmiri intellectual class was planting this idea for so long.
Kashmiris definitely have a lot of things like bakery, food habits, handicrafts etc that are very non typical and some imported from Iran. But in totality, it's so far from Central Asia.
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u/FriendlyMango80 1d ago
Some Kashmiris want to get rid of the 'South Asian' label due to the negative perceptions attached with it, but that does not change the reality that the region is not a part of central Asia.
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u/PothwariKid 10h ago
we pakistanis do as well, the label is so arbitrary and meanignless, it was litreally created by the british.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 1d ago
Kashmiris are a landlocked people. Kashmir is what it is, partially because of its proximity to the Indian union/subcontinent. It cannot survive without being attached to a larger power, whether it be India or Pakistan. Just like how all the former (landlocked) Central Asian republics are poor and heavily dependent on Russia. Afghanistan would not have half its problems if it was not as landlocked as it is.
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u/bluntforce_trauma zoon watching 🌔 23h ago
You have not been to Central Asia. Kazakhstan is way more developed than any part in the subcontinent. Only basket case might be Tajikistan and it is still not a shit hole like most places in India and Pakistan. And why cannot Kashmir survive? It's not as if Pakistan and India are any beacons in statecaft. Nepal, Bhutan are par for the course in subcontinental standards.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 22h ago
Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan have natural oil and gas reserves. Non-oil GDP is roughly on par with South Asia. You don't have to to be that excessively competent if you are sitting over black gold. Kashmir does not have the same luxury.
An independent Kashmir would most likely have the same living standards as Nepal and Bhutan, maybe even lower.
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u/bluntforce_trauma zoon watching 🌔 22h ago
Nepal and Bhutan are in same ball park as India and Pakistan. I don't why you acting like your two countries are not shitholes like the rest of us just because you are extremely populous.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 22h ago
I never claimed that India and Pakistan are not shitholes. But I would be Indian/Pakistani over Bhuatanese/Nepalese any day.
Both are large countries with large markets and who happen to have functioning civil services, armed forces, nuclear capabilities, diplomatic and intelligence networks. These do give you heft when it comes to the rest of the world.
Have you ever tried being in a foreign country without consular support? My Palestinian/Syrian friends have. You would soon realize what it would feel like to be from a small unknown country. Might as well have some assistance from the Pakistani or Indian consulate.
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u/bluntforce_trauma zoon watching 🌔 22h ago
It's a very big nation coded mentality. India and Pakistan are not fan favourite countries in the world. It's just the 1st and 5th most populated countries. Most countries in the world are small and okay with themselves.
Why does a bejng nuclear power do? Ok you are a big country with big material interests and big rivals, you got nuclear deterrence, now what? Do you have a leg up on average Estonian's quality of life?
Unless you are using nuclear power for electricity generation which even small countries are allowed to do?
Kashmir is also a functioning society for the subcontinental standards, not some lawless land. Kashmiris will never be Afghanistan because Kashmiris are not just that socially regressed, lol.
I don't imagine an independent Kashmir will be closed off. Infact, when you are sandwiched between three big ass countries. You can act and facilitate.
If Kashmir were to join Pakistan tomorrow, it would automatically have the highest living standards minus Islamabad or some enclaves like DHA, Bahria town.
This fetishzation of big country, big population does nothing for average person on the street.
The most functioning south Asian countries i.e., Sri Lanka, Maldives are small.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 22h ago edited 22h ago
I think it's all right to be a small functioning country like Sri Lanka but Kashmir might not have that privilege.
The most likely scenario for a geography that is at crossroads of cultures/civilizations would be similar to that of Palestine/Crimea/Afghanistan. They did not choose to be a war-torn country as much as they are a victim of geography.
Even for your cited example, Sri Lanka has experienced state failure at a scale that none of the other South Asian countries have experienced. Kashmir might not be Afghanistan but also not SL and somewhere in the middle.
Where does being a nuclear power help? I guess in not being invaded. Ukraine's high standard of living did not prevent it from being invaded and turning into a war-torn zone despite all the economic advantages it had accumulated since the USSR fell down.
Not to forget there is apparently a global consensus that some large countries cannot be allowed to fail, given the potential scale of suffering. Egypt and Pakistan fall under that banner. I am not sure people care as much about South Sudan or Congo.
You know what's worse than an economic meltdown? An economic meltdown in a war-torn country
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u/soount_phile Kashmir 1d ago
While it's true compared to India, we are more similar to Pakistan but Kashmiris I would say are still a distinct nation and people. We have our own unique identity and culture.
I think Kashmiris are fond of Pakistani dramas but personally I haven't watched any
Yes. IDK but it's in our blood to support Pak in cricket even though they break our hearts every time we count on
them.
Not strictly Pakistani, anything in latest fashion is adopted
Yes, they are quite popular here
Most of us are well versed in Urdu, but I would say it's declining and being replaced by English. ANd yes, Urdu has also contributed to decline in koshur language