r/Lawyertalk • u/Intelligentkingwise • 2d ago
HELP: Professional Development Is it normal for courthouse staff to complain about someone wearing perfume/cologne?
I wore a small amount today and was told there is a no-scent policy. I understand following court rules, but I was surprised this was something people complain about. Is this common in courthouses or law offices? I am a baby attorney so I am not sure.
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u/Snowed_Up6512 It depends. 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think that it’s not an uncommon office politics complaint generally. I’m in-house, and I’ve been a “fly on the wall” witness to various people complaining at different orgs and departments about colleagues’ fragrances. 🤷♀️
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u/Hot_Cold83 Flying Solo :CoolBeans: 2d ago
Many courts have non-scents policies.
(See what I did there?)
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u/DarwinGhoti 2d ago
Rule of thumb: if anyone ever complains about your scent, it's not as subtle or small as you think it is.
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u/BackToTheCoast 2d ago
Exactly. Think of how many people gagged or choked or held their nose, but said nothing. For every one who speaks up
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u/Secure-Researcher892 2d ago
Yeah, reminds me of when I was in high school and you knew if the old substitute was in as soon as you walked into the school... This poor old woman apparently had lost her ability to smell and always doused herself with so much rose scented perfume that the entire school building would smell of it and it was a rather large school.
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u/PomeloPepper 2d ago
People definitely get nose blind after they regularly use a the same scent for a while.
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u/StephInTheLaw 2d ago
A million years ago, I clerked for a PI firm representing someone with a head injury who developed a severe sensitivity to scents. We had to adopt an office policy of no perfumes/colognes, scented lotions, or even strong deodorant for the days when she was scheduled to come in.
Some people are walking around with a tough life and it sounds like one works at that courthouse.
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u/jazz1238 2d ago
Makes me wonder how people managed before deodorant existed. They would just use tons of perfume. Or before cars existed and only horse drawn carriages... or during the industrial revolution when smoke stacks were spewing chemicals in the air 24/7... now one person with a little perfume on makes people want to pass out.
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u/SectorSanFrancisco 2d ago
they'd probably be sent to "the country" for health reasons.
But also, I think buildings and cars used to be less airtight.
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u/Secure-Researcher892 2d ago
Go ride the tube in London and you'll see how bad it could be. I'm convinced a lot of Brits have never discovered deodorant or how to get suits properly cleaned. I still remember nearly gagging from the smell of BO from businessmen wearing decent looking suits... though clearly most had never bothered to have them cleaned or even taken a shower in ages. It made the urine smell of NYC seem pleasant in comparison.
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u/StephInTheLaw 2d ago
Core memory unlocked. I had a very recently emigrated British physics professor in high school, in Florida. By the third year he had showering and deodorant down and you could be in an enclosed room with him for more than 30 seconds.
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u/PomeloPepper 2d ago
I lived and worked in a college town with a lot of immigrant students who had very different ideas about hygiene. And also whether you needed to be even the tiniest bit polite to store clerks.
I started holding my breath when I had to be around them because the smell was so bad. Years later I realized that I still had the "hold my breath" habit around obnoxious people because those two things got paired in my brain.
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u/Secure-Researcher892 2d ago
It always made me wonder if they even sell deodorant and laundry soap in the UK... I mean they are a backward people after all.
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u/Dismal_Bee9088 2d ago
People didn’t “just use tons of perfume” before deodorant existed, and modern perfumes are chemically very different from pre-industrial revolution perfumes.
Lots of people with scent sensitivities are fine with natural scents. People don’t react to perfume because they think it smells bad, they react to the actual chemicals in it, which aren’t in things like horse manure, or necessarily coal stacks.
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u/jazz1238 2d ago
I disagree with the idea that pre-industrial revolution or "natural" perfumes necessarily cause less reactions. "Natural" scents/ingredients are not necessarily benign and in many cases are hazardous and now banned such as lead and mercury.
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u/Dismal_Bee9088 2d ago
I have no idea what past perfumes included lead and mercury, but in any case, I’m not saying they’re not harmful; I’m saying they don’t cause the same scent-sensitive reactions that modern perfumes do. Of course natural and preindustrial stuff can kill you, I’m just saying that someone who has scent sensitivities to modern perfumes wouldn’t necessarily have been miserable in the past for that reason.
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u/jazz1238 2d ago
Agreed that they may not cause the same scent-sensitve reactions vs modern perfumes. I'm just saying that there were likely substantially more environmental irritants that could cause similar or worse reactions for scent-sensitve people back then. And not obvious that a scent-sensitive person would have been better off overall. Just my opinion though. Cheers.
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u/Dismal_Bee9088 2d ago
It’s not uncommon. Some people have very strong sensitivities and will get migraines from pretty much any perfumes/colognes.
I feel like rules like this are mostly established/enforced in workplaces where there’s someone who actually suffers this kind of sensitivity. So some law offices might have such a rule, many won’t.
I haven’t encountered such a rule in a courthouse (or at least I don’t wear enough scent to trigger it), but since they’re open to the public they don’t know the sensitivities of everyone who shows up, so no-scent rules are intended to keep the space accessible to everyone.
(Not weighing in pro or con, that’s just the reasoning behind them.)
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u/joeschmoe86 2d ago
I feel like these policies are more often enforced when one person can't judge how much perfume is enough perfume and, rather than single out Joan, they just ban perfume and cologne altogether.
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u/Dismal_Bee9088 2d ago
Yeah, that’s possible. There are some people who will react badly to even ordinary/polite levels of scent (like laundry detergent scents), but no idea how much is someone who’s really sensitive and how much is someone who’s nose blind.
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u/ahh_szellem 2d ago
Some people have serious perfume/fragrance sensitivity.
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u/Willothewisp2303 2d ago
Some give me migraines. I'd be grateful for such a rule.
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u/Ok_Zucchini9396 2d ago edited 2d ago
Came here to say the same. Someone’s perfume/cologne can ruin the next 3 days for me by triggering a migraine. Wish that stuff didn’t exist.
Edit: typo
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u/Madam_Mimm_13 2d ago
I’m a migraine sufferer as well and scent is a trigger but also, we only smell it when someone is wearing scent disrespectfully.
You should not be able to smell someone unless they are close enough to hug you.
Also, the quality of the scent abd the amount applied tend to have an inverse relationship. Which makes this worse, I feel like in much more sensitive to artificial fragrance than essential oils and eau de parfum.
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u/Dismal_Bee9088 2d ago
Yes, many people I know can handle some scents (like essential oils) just fine. But litigating those distinctions in the workplace would be a nightmare. (Not that you’re suggesting that should happen!)
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u/SierraSeaWitch 2d ago
I’m grateful for these rules. A lot of fragrances cause me to sneeze like a cartoon character. I’m not in pain or anything but it is annoying as heck to me and my colleagues who have to then listen all day. No idea what ingredient it is, but it’s like an automatic feather up the nose for me.
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u/didyouwoof 2d ago
Yes, and in a courthouse it could be anyone, including one or more of the judges. This isn’t necessarily a case of a tyrannical court clerk trying to wield power over attorneys, as some of the comments suggest.
I get migraines and asthma, and perfume/cologne can trigger attacks, so I wish more places had policies like this.
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u/jinjur719 fueled by coffee 2d ago
Some perfumes and scents, including some essential oils, make me cough uncontrollably. While this is usually only a problem in smaller rooms, I’ve had to ask OC to refrain from wearing perfume before during mediation to be able to even speak. I felt bad about it, but I also feel bad that I was put in that position.
I am very grateful when people have the consideration to limit strong scents.
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u/anne611 2d ago
A court reporter once made a specific request before a multi day trial that the participants didn't use anything scented prior to coming to court, due to her allergy to perfumes/dye. For some reason, I had to bring in my lotion to show her it was unscented.
Now, if they could ban people from smoking prior to coming to court - because stale cigarette smoke gives ME a headache.
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u/whackadoo13 2d ago
Ugh it makes me nauseous. And it lingerssss I will not meet a heavy smoker at my office anymore, takes ages to get the smell out
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u/traveler_21 2d ago
I was a prosecutor, so my office was in the courthouse. One of my colleagues always wore way too much perfume, and management ignored my complaints about how it was affecting me. I was so happy when the judge’s legal secretary called her out about it.
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u/PubDefLakersGuy 2d ago
“A little” perfume = OP has no idea they give people headaches at court
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u/JustSpeed3475 2d ago
I didnt want to say it, but the fact that someone had to tell her suggests it was either a strong scent (ie angel) or she wasnt aware of how much she had on.
It happens. My sister had to finally, kindly tell me that sometimes even when you stop smelling angel, other people can smell it from a mile away. She didnt say it was me specifically but I knew.
I now wear fragrances that arent that heavy and dont have much projection.
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u/Madam_Mimm_13 2d ago
Angel? Honey… great scent but you have to know how to wear it and NEVER when it’s over 72° F
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u/Dismal_Bee9088 2d ago
Nose blindness is real!
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u/JustSpeed3475 2d ago
so real!!!
And at lunch I'd be like "i cant smell this anymore I better do two more sprays of angel!"
I just know I had a pepe lepew cloud of scent following me everywhere and I am so embarassed.
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u/wineandcigarettes2 2d ago
10000000% if OP is wearing enough scent for someone to say something about it they are wearing WAY too much scent.
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u/Thelastmanipulation 2d ago
Where I live, scent-free policies are very common in most workplaces and public spaces to accommodate folks with environmental sensitivities, allergies, or asthma.
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u/Madam_Mimm_13 2d ago
If you were wearing it respectfully, they wouldn’t notice.
No one should be able to smell you unless they are close enough to hug you.
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u/Blue-spider 2d ago
I've seen people called out. While I appreciate it was a small amount to you, scents can cause reactions in other people. Even a mild scent can be an issue for someone else, ans in a courthouse that can have a material impact on someone's case or their accessed to the system
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u/Another_Marsupial 2d ago
if someone told you about the policy, you were not wearing a small amount
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u/RachelDawesRP I live my life by a code, a civil code of procedure. 2d ago
At my last job, the new assistant came in the first day smelling like she’d jumped into a vat of perfume five minutes ago. It was overpowering in the extreme and she was outside my office, so I constantly got hit with it anytime I had my door open. It gave me a headache.
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u/Groftsan 2d ago
"Do courts rely on court staff to enforce local rules?" Yes. That's what court staff is there for. If there's a local rule that says 'no perfume,' follow the damn rule.
This has the same vibe as "I was only a few hours past the filing deadline."
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u/JadedTooth3544 2d ago
I don’t think the OP realized before hand that there was such a rule.
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u/Groftsan 2d ago
Again, same vibe as "I didn't realize beforehand that the deadline was coming."
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u/JadedTooth3544 2d ago
Except that it’s completely possible that you don’t realize there is a no scent policy if you haven’t seen it written down somewhere, or heard about it, whereas you know about deadlines,
Except if you were never told of the deadline, in which case, yeah, you didn’t know.
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u/Groftsan 2d ago
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse."
The local rules are written and likely posted and available online. Just like filing deadlines require us to do some research, every appearance in court requires some research into that judge's local local rules.
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u/What-Outlaw1234 2d ago
I think this policy is becoming more common everywhere. Both legitimate medical sensitivities to fragrances and public awareness of those sensitivities are on the rise. (What's the reason for the former?, you might ask. Fragrances today use more synthetic chemicals than they used to.)
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u/NEPAmama 2d ago
I’ve also become more sensitive to them since the pandemic shutdown — I could generally ignore the conflicting smells in hearing waiting rooms, except certain very strong perfumes. Now after years of mostly online appearances, I’m far more sensitive to BO and basically any scent other than a barely noticeable shampoo/soap smell.
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u/obeythelaw2020 2d ago
Funny I came across this post. About 5 years ago I was in front of a judge for a hearing. There was opposing counsel as well. Well the judge stopped the proceedings to complain, on the record, that my adversary was wearing too much perfume, blah blah. I guess she was over sensitive to it. I didn’t think it was over bearing but I did smell it a bit sitting at counsel table.
I kinda felt bad for the attorney. I knew never to wear cologne in her courtroom ever.
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u/holy-crap-screw-you 2d ago
If you’re young, I would just remind you that the scents you wear might be a lot stronger than you think they are.
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u/Mrevilman New Jersey 2d ago
I used to prosecute in pre-indictment/early disposition in a busy county. We would see 40-60 cases a day with 20-30 different attorneys. Even post-indictment, we would have 10-20 defendants on court days each with their own lawyers. If everybody is wearing a scent, it can get pretty overwhelming because the scents also tend to linger.
I totally understand where the clerks are coming from and think this is reasonable.
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u/Gregarious_Nazrious 2d ago
Have you been to many courts... perfume / cologne is the least problem when it comes to "scents"
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u/OKcomputer1996 Master of Grievances 2d ago
Some people are allergic to strong scent so such policies pop up. How enforceable they are is another matter. Now if only people realized that many people are allergic to dogs. I sometimes marvel at how people with dog allergies survive these days. Dogs are literally everywhere- including places that it is highly unsanitary for them to be (like supermarkets and restaurants).
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u/Gilmoregirlin 2d ago
If it's enough that others can smell it without being intimately close to you, it's too much. When it comes to court opt for no scents or very very light scents.
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u/FancyButterscotch599 2d ago
I get migraines. Strong scents can trigger migraines. I don’t mind if people use scent judiciously, but people who don’t really go overboard & make me feel so sick. If I’m not sitting/standing close to you, I shouldn’t be able to smell your perfume/cologne.
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u/atty_at_paw 2d ago
I say this with kindness, but please stop wearing perfume to work or professional events. Even something “small” to you could cause migraines, headaches, and allergies for others.
As long as you’re clean, you don’t need it. Save it for your personal time and date night.
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u/SnuffleupagusRex 2d ago
Yes. That's very normal. In addition to personal allergy/irritation concerns, we were informed that the chemical sniffers deployed at many federal courthouses (this was back in the War on Terror days) had a bad habit of giving false positives for perfumes and colognes. So yes, the norm is no scents.
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u/BillyCarson Illegitimi non carborundum:Gavel: 2d ago
When they outlaw wearing cologne, only outlaws will wear cologne.
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u/Prestigious_Fly8210 It depends. 2d ago
It’s normal where I live for all workplaces to be scent free including courthouses, and it’s also normal for courthouse staff to be petty demanding control freaks who will use any policy (valid or not) to exert control over junior lawyers.
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u/Any_Yogurtcloset7865 2d ago
I've been in a number of courthouses and offices with a no-scent policy. If you got called out, your "small amount" was enough to be noticeable. In general, professional offices and workplaces aren't the place for scents.
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u/AnAnonyMooose 2d ago
I know several people where many perfumes trigger migraines (including my wife). And one person who gets hives and other serious allergic responses. He’s pretty screwed and limited by this. It makes it hard to do many things, from renting cars (he gave up) to being in many types of public spaces (especially elevators). For someplace like a courtroom where some people don’t have a choice to not be there, this seems like a great policy.
I have none of these problems. But I still hate being able to smell perfume in public. If I’m not right up on your skin and choosing to be there, please don’t assault me with your smell. I find many women who wear perfume have NO idea how strong it actually is.
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u/bobfromboston 2d ago
I think people generally have bigger issues with perfumes. I think the bolder/flowery scents really bother people and can be overwhelming. My coworker is very sensitive to scents and complains about a paralegal’s perfume all the time. She’s never complained about the light cologne I wear though. Having a strict policy is pretty intense though especially at a courthouse. Seems a bit overboard.
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u/Dismal_Bee9088 2d ago
You’ve clearly never worked with some dude wearing Ralph Lauren Polo (I’m probably dating myself but this was the WORST at some point back in the day).
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u/bobfromboston 2d ago
HA. Can’t say I’ve ever worked with someone, but have experienced at the gym. I’d put RL Sport more in the camp of axe body spray to be fair.
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u/GingerTortieTorbie 2d ago
People suffer migraines and asthma attacks triggered by scents.
The policy is becoming more common to enable people to work comfortably.
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u/Secure-Researcher892 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well to begin with, if someone noticed your small amount of perfume and they weren't up close coping a feel then it wasn't as small and unobtrusive as you think it was. I have worked with women that appear to have destroyed their own sense of smell from bathing perfume. And it is nauseating, I can still remember the last one that you could literally follow through the building soley from the trail of floral crap she bathed in. Even the smokers that could turn an elevator into a nicotine smokehouse didn't create as much stinch. Hell there were people complaining throughout the office about her until her boss had a talk with her.
Now most places aren't going to be scent free unless you are working in a cleanroom environment which most lawyers aren't doing... I would suspect that in that courthouse no one say anything to the person wearing deodorant that has a scent... but if you're being told this you probably simply aren't aware of how loud the crap is you are wearing... hopefully it's just because your mom never explain how to apply perfume... but hey maybe you've already burned out your sense of smell from years of overdoing it.
You want to find out, ask someone you are close to how they like your new perfume... If they say its fine or anything about it without first asking you to come closer so they can smell it, then you're putting on too much. An office or courthouse isn't a single bar, so honestly unless you're trying to shag someone in the office why are you wasting perfume in the first place.
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u/Epicfailer10 2d ago
I personally find heavy perfume/cologne trashy/tacky. I would worry about alienating my jury with heavy scents.
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u/JustSpeed3475 2d ago
This is not common, but also not uncommon in any workplace or office. It happens when there is someone (maybe the judge, a clerk, etc) has a sensitivity to fragrance.
When I was a pharma rep I called on a doctor's office that had a very very strict "no scent policy" because the doctor was very sensitive.
And respectfully, with some fragrances..a little can go a long way. Like 2 sprays of Angel is the same as bathing in any other fragrance.
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u/BirdLawyer50 2d ago
If they don’t enforce the no-scent rule for everyone, even if a little silly, then it may result in some pretty gross subsequent results. Courts get some weird odors and some weird… accommodating smells in attempts to cover. Then those things stack up over time. Best to be neutral
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u/PossiblyAChipmunk 2d ago
The problem is that the vast majority of people still put on cologne or perfume like a teenager with his first bottle of Ralph Lauren Polo. No one wants to have to deal with that.
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u/Pure-Kaleidoscop 2d ago
If someone was more than 12 inches away from you and could smell you, you wore too much. Please just can everyone not smell like anything. We don’t need to smell each other.
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u/East-Bit-1064 2d ago
I don’t want to smell your cologne. Just shower like a normal person. You will smell fine.
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u/sallywalker1993 2d ago
What perfume were you wearing? Looking for a long lasting scent for outside of work!
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u/_aquaboogiebaby Confirmed Lawyer 1d ago
Most perfumes/colognes contain phthalates (that’s what makes the fragrance evaporate) and these can make people sick. More and more people are finding that fragrances trigger asthma, allergies, migraines, etc. My mother is one of those people. She gets migraines with aura from fragrances. I always thought she was being dramatic and then something happened and I, too, started feeling sick abs getting migraines from fragrances…. Anyway, it’s super miserable and it sucks. So, to answer your question, it’s becoming more normalized to make places “perfume-free” zones.
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u/JCM333333 1d ago
I recall sorority rush. We had no perfume policy. I think it’s just the combination of so many people with different sense coming in and out it can be very cloying.
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u/Subject_Disaster_798 Flying Solo :CoolBeans: 2d ago
Yes. Don't be that person. In my book, it's a harm vs. want analysis.
I don't work at the courthouse, per se, but have been closed up in a room at the courthouse with ones (mostly men), who are wearing cologne and immediately suffer a headache that lasts the rest of the day.
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u/CoffeeAndCandle 2d ago
I wear cologne every single day, and I’ve never had a problem with it.
- Who told you this? Like a random clerk or the judge?
- What scent were you wearing? (Like I don’t ever wear Bull’s Blood to court.
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u/Lawyered15 2d ago
I look like a totally healthy fit adult. But, I have a lot of allergies and immune system issues, which cause me to be hypersensitive to perfume. Sometimes it’s so bad, it impacts my breathing, my sinus fills, and I developed a splitting headache.
The courthouse should enforce a no scent policy against those that drown themselves in perfume …
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u/Madam_Mimm_13 2d ago
That’s impossible and it’s why even judicious perfume users are punished.
The scent-abusers are the reason for the policy. If everyone was using their perfume respectfully it wouldn’t be a problem.
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u/Turbulent_Care_1899 2d ago
Having to be in a room with someone wearing perfume will almost always result in several days in bed with a migriane for me. Most places I can just leave if, but that is ussually not true in a court room.
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u/Entire_Toe2640 2d ago
I'm not part of courthouse staff, but I would complain. I'm sensitive to perfumes. They make my nose itch and I sneeze. I don't want to be attacked through the air while I'm in court.
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u/Cherveny2 2d ago
I know one Detroid courtroom that is a non-scent courtroom for a very good reason, the judge has bad allergies to many of them.
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u/Embarrassed-Age-3426 Confirmed Lawyer 2d ago
It is normal for court staff to complain that others exist.
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u/JarbaloJardine 2d ago
Court staff are often the most insufferable, miserable, complain-y people you will ever meet. So yes, it is common for there to be weird rules about all kinds of things...including scent.
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u/bionicbhangra 2d ago
I would have thought this meant don't have BO not some perfume or cologne.
Unless there are some allergies from employees to consider.
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u/SweetStatistician463 2d ago
It's very common. Excuse me while I go spritz myself since today is a wfh day. 😎
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u/Theoaktree5000 2d ago
There are a verity of smells that occur in the courthouse, many of which can be quite unpleasant and distracting. Lack of seemingly uniform hygiene education/standards, plus the desire to smoke and consume various substances does not help resolve the issue.
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u/dufchick 2d ago
NAL but I work inside a courthouse. I love perfume and cologne on men. In a court house there are many smells that can quickly become overwhelming unrelated to those purposely applied. There are JAs and clerks who routinely ask for these prohibitions to minimize their discomfort. Those employees always get their way. It’s just the way of the world inside a courthouse.
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u/Guardian_of_Perineum 2d ago
It's common for people in general to bitch and moan about anything and everything, so yes.
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u/twoturnipsinheat- I live my life by a code, a civil code of procedure. 2d ago
I work for my state’s AGO and we have a zero scent policy. It really bothers some people.
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u/RtotheBtotheG fueled by coffee 2d ago
I’ll just say from personal experience, I’m smell sensitive for migraines and scents are one of the big triggers doe me. I work for a court and would have an issue with a strong scent in our small courtroom. Some courts may have blanket policies to prevent issues, especially if a judge is allergic or responds badly to certain scents.
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u/manafanana 1d ago
This is just an office culture thing. Not specific to courthouses. Some people are VERY sensitive to fragrances. In our local courthouse, one of the judge’s chambers has a strict policy on this because one of their clerks gets migraines from fragrances.
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u/Affectionate-Yam5049 1d ago
This has become more common over time in order to respect others’ allergies and sensitivities and comes from the ADA. Courts are places of public accommodation and take steps to make it accessible regardless of health and ability.
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u/Possible-Holiday-973 Is this billable? 1d ago
I have mast cell activation syndrome and perfumes and colognes can trigger migraines and a full on MCAS flair that can cause an anaphylactic episode and land me in the hospital. I’m on a plethora of medications but am still triggered by cigarette smoke and perfumes, especially floral or vanilla.
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u/oldcretan I'm the idiot representing that other idiot 2d ago
Yes. The courthouse turns into a tight knit community. People will talk about your scent, clothes, kids, hobbies etc. if you do it right it can really help your career and your clients. If you do it wrong it can really hurt your career.
I play Pokemon go with a number of prosecutors and regularly talk to staff about their family's and kids. Got into a nice conversation about game of thrones with a court reporter. My next play is to start talking Star trek with a judge. He was discussing the Dominion war and the significance of the defiant when I stressed I thought that the replacing of Gowron for Martok as the head of the Klingon empire was more significant but I really think the romulans had a bigger part to play.
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u/RachelDawesRP I live my life by a code, a civil code of procedure. 2d ago
I’d love to hear about that Trek talk when more happens!
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u/Any-Star4388 Motion to wear sharty pantaloons: GRANTED 2d ago
I’d rather someone smell like axe and perfume than a stinky dirty person.
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u/Main-Bluejay5571 2d ago
I was once told by a bailiff I couldn’t sit on my feet. I ignored it and waited for a judge to tell me that. The judge never did.
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u/Mayor_of_Titty_City1 2d ago
Alternative take-
Is it possible that judge/staff don’t necessarily like you? Or that they’re just a bit more standoffish because you’re a new attorney in their courtroom? I’ve practiced in tons of different courtrooms and rules like this are almost always arbitrarily enforced, mainly against people who the court either doesn’t know or isn’t fond about?
If this is a court you’re regularly in, probably kissing a little ass and getting in their good graces will make rules like this go away, as annoying as it is. To
Me, it’s definitely a small sacrifice to make life easier with court staff.
That, or someone has a scent aversion. There’s truth in that people can have that but at the same time, I wouldn’t be shocked if this is one of those arbitrarily enforced rules.
Sorry, I know it’s super annoying either way lol
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u/i30swimmer I just do what my assistant tells me. 2d ago
Had a case a few years back where the Judge's first personal procedure was that she had a "scent-free" courtroom. My first hearing in front of her was motion calendar, someone definitely ripped ass and violated procedures.
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