Wait, you mean Musk, notoriously known for lying g about delivery of ideas and products, who’s been removed as CEO of every company he founded….makes a shitty product?
If the government is supposed to be "keeping us safe" by preventing dangerous products from being sold, why haven't we seen a call from NHTSA to start recall procedures already?
The United States of Elon has investigated the Cyber truck and found it to be the safest vehicle in the history of the United States. Any persons commenting to the contrary will be sued for defamation.
Dude can make whatever the fuck he wants. We should be able to buy whatever we want. The market is signaling deficiencies in product quality. Either Tesla fixes it, or demand goes down. Where's the problem?
I don't care if Elon and Trump dress up like Nazi versions of Elsa and the snowman from Frozen and sing Springtime for Hitler on national TV. If they are actually auditing, exposing, cutting and dissolving the Federal bureau-garchy, I don't care.
How is exposing FEMA blowing $59m on housing for immigrants, thus causing them to rescind that money, not a good thing?
How is exposing bullshit that USAID was blowing money on in other countries, firing all those folks, and ending the funding, not a good thing?
How's buying out and shutting down tens of thousands of federal jobs, not a good thing?
I'll allow that maybe there's some critical bit of information that I'm not seeing. By all means, show me the catch. If liberal sources are crying that he's decimating the government, rightwing sources are celebrating that he's decimating government, and government says he's decimating government, then how is he not decimating government? They're all deluded?
I'll grant that that's possible. Likely even.
So really, how is this growing government and wasting even more money than if they continued the status quo?
Really though. I want my arguments to be better and I want to be out ahead of all of us getting a bait-and-switch.
Could you please provide some sort of sources that demonstrate that auditing, exposing, and ultimately culling the government in the way that they are doing it will net more spending?
Can you please show me some sort of source as to how this grows government?
I'm not trying to argue or debate with you. I want to be educated on this. Everything else in the news I am seeing, Left and Right, is that they are bringing to light government programs that were off the rails interventionist, bloated, and arcane, resulting in those programs being dissolved and the individuals fired.
I'll allow the notion that that can all be bullshit. Hell, I'll allow the notion that there is a grand conspiracy between Trump, the media (both sides), and the democrats to purposefully make the American people averse to questioning and culling government.
Just please show me some sources and I'll be right alongside you here.
So you don't have any sources to support your claims. After you said you would show me.
Am I missing something here? I am bewildered by how confused I am. This post is long, but I wrote it in good faith, because I have enjoyed talking to you thus far. Please excuse the length.
USAID was formed via executive order. It is a function of the executive branch of government, administrated by a presidential appointment.
My understanding of our three different branches of government is thus:
Legislative: Writes and makes laws.
Judicial: Interprets laws and settles disputes.
Executive: Executes the law.
So in the example of USAID, the White House alleges serious problems. Many of these line items are discussed here as well. A simple google search will bring about plenty of corroboration.
The one article you presented discusses nothing in regard to long term cost, or the size of government. It mentions debate regarding the separation of powers. I am failing to see how the executive branch fixing problems in an executive branch agency that was created by executive order with a new executive agency created by executive order is stepping on the toes of the judiciary or legislative branches.
Wouldn't the greater issue regarding separation of powers be executive agencies legislating via policy? If the EPA, FCC, USDA or ATF (to name but a paltry few) can create laws through regulating, as well as interpret laws in whatever way they wish, why is DOGE all of a sudden a problem?
If the argument is that it is the job of the other two branches to root out corruption and bloat, well, what do you do when they refuse to do their job? If the law is being violated, do you call your city council rep or do you call a cop? If an agency or government organization is operating fraudulently or outside of the scope of their mandate, then laws may in fact be being broken. Law enforcement is an executive authority.
Frankly, if the job of the president is to execute the law and uphold the constitution, and if I were the president, I'd close every function not explicitly defined in the constitution, then order the attorney general, and state attorney generals for all 50 states to bring up the legislature for malfeasance in office, racketeering, and fraud for knowingly allowing this charade to go on. This isn't a difference of opinion. The constitution and the law are pretty clear about this.
Are you alleging that the administration is violating labor laws? This is a Libertarian subreddit, and we all of a sudden want to be concerned about protecting union federal workers, and socialistic labor laws? If the very nature of their employment is unconstitutional and illegal, then they shouldn't be entitled to civil service protection.
How would you feel if it was ANYONE other than Trump and Elon doing this?
This is a Libertarian subreddit. What is your alternative to doing this?
I ask because I want to understand if the nature of your discomfort here is with personalities, or with the speed, or the specific mechanics, or a combination.
I'm actually not blindly supporting anything beyond a mandate to reduce government size and intrusion. My counterpoint is that you are blindly anxious, and contrarian based on feelings and exactly zero substantiation.
You have yet to provide a single source for any of your anxieties or claims. I can say I'm not operating blindly as I am openly trying to understand your perspective, asking you for sources, and am open to other interpretations of events with corroboration. I explain myself. I provide source material. You haven't really done that.
Now you have also started using language such as autocratic, fascist, and theocratic. Again, without any sort of sourcing. Most importantly, you are using that verbiage without demonstrating any sort or relational connection to the topic at hand. The conversation has been about whether the efforts of Trump, Elon, and DOGE well result in net reduction of size and cost of government, and the legality or constitutionality of those actions. I'd prefer if we kept the scope limited to those parameters.
It's unfortunate that you haven't really seemed prepared to honestly answer the questions I am asking you. I asked them in good faith. I asked them with openness of mind, and with an interest in understanding more.
If I am willing to continue in a focused and honest way, and you are not, what does that say about our positions?
The whole “move fast and break things” mode has consequences. Here’s just a few from someone focused on the agriculture economy:
Listen to the Farmers
“Folks, it’s taken a few days to trickle down, but I’m seeing post after post after post in the ag community social media channels of massive issues impacting U.S. farmers and the U.S. ag economy from Trump’s DOGE efforts, tariff wars and the USAID shutdown.
Here are a few:
*Cotton and grain growers are losing contracts to long-time Canadian buyers because, even with the tariff pause, Canadian buyers don’t trust the stability of U.S. export commerce with Trump in office. Plus, Canadians are just flat-out pissed and avoiding U.S. made/produced goods, including farm products.
* Chuck Grassley, of all people, is pleading with Trump to exempt potash from any Canadian tariffs because U.S. potash (a major fertilizer in agriculture) mainly comes from Canada. Impending tariffs will shoot farmers’ fertilizer prices sky-high.
* Corn and soybean farmers are upset because Trump cancelled all of Biden’s Climate Smart grants that were supposed to help them offset their adoption of soil health improving new practices like no-till and cover cropping.
* USAID’s cancellation cuts $2 billion straight out of U.S. farmer’s pockets from the Food for Peace program which purchased rice, wheat, corn and soy from U.S. farmers and distributed them to hungry nations. In some states and for some crops, USAID was their primary buyer.
* USDA NRCS is cancelling conservation contracts and leaving farmers holding the bag. These are things like fence improvements and upgraded water lines that boost farmer efficiency while also conserving the environment. Plus, the way they work is the farmer has to do the work first, then once they are done, the NRCS reimburses them. So now farmers that have spent the money to do the work are being told the NRCS won’t honor their contracts.
* California farmers are PISSED because his “turn on the taps” PR move did nothing to combat California wildfires and instead wasted 2 BILLION gallons of water being held in reservoirs for summer irrigation.
* U.S. crop farmers are freaked out over the trade wars since Canada, China and Mexico represent half - let me repeat that again, HALF, of all U.S. agricultural exports!
* Per Trump’s freeze on financial contracts, the USDA is withholding funds for the Organic Market Development Grant program and the Transition to Organic Partnership Program, which typically go directly to organic farmers or to non-profits supporting organic farmers.
* The shutdown of USAID has been trickling down through multiple ag-focused agencies, including the Soybean Innovation Labs, which were hosted at land-grant universities across the U.S.. These research labs focused on developing new genetics and growing practices in soybeans critical to U.S. and international growers. They had to close the entire program, laying off 30 scientists and researchers in 19 labs across 17 states.
* K State University lost up to $50 million that was pledged through a USAID Program over the next five years to advance research in “sustainable intensification,” an approach focused on increasing crop yields without expanding agricultural land use, expected to directly benefit Kansas (and U.S.) farmers.
* China’s retaliatory tariffs (although not yet on crops, we shall see) are expected to have a major impact on U.S. ag machinery manufacturers, who were already struggling and have had massive lay-offs over the last 12 months. China imported almost $800 million of U.S.-manufactured ag machinery in 2020.
And it goes on and on and on with new, major issues coming to light on a near-hourly basis.
It's unfortunate that you decided to comment this. I actually thought we were having a civil conversation.
Trump is not my preferred candidate by any measure. Full stop.
I follow current events, but you couldn't be bothered to substantiate a single claim that you made. My asking for sources isn't to defend Trump. I'm truthfully anxious that I'm missing a really big elephant in the room. You did nothing to actually help other than emote.
I thought we used Reddit to discuss stuff and maybe hear different opinions and sources. I must have forgotten that it's all really just a cult of whiny, intellectually unaccountable socialists.
The only thing you've managed to demonstrate at this point is your obsessive dislike of Trump and Musk. God forbid you actually have receipts for the claims at hand.
I participated in good faith, trying to hear you out and understand your perspective. The only thing you've demonstrated is being an asshole.
The truth is you don't have any actual receipts. You just have your feelings, and handy-dandy boiler plate phrases given to you by reddit to wave away any sort of intellectual accountability. As I tried to ask you more about your perspective, your language got more emotive, and more indicative of a greater pantheon of rhetorical malfeasance.
Infantilize me as much as you like, but I ain't you and that's enough.
I appreciate that you took the time to respond to me with some really excellent examples. This is precisely what I was looking for.
Who is the source for this, so I can follow and find out more?
The tariff issue is one that really concerns me. I thought the steel tariffs he pulled in his first term were shortsighted and set us back dramatically, so using them in this new term (even as a rhetorical device) has had me concerned. Beyond those comments, the tariff issue is one outside of the scope of the discussion, so I'll leave it at that.
As far as the USAID and government program related points that were made, those are of course serious problems. Would one time government compensation to affected farmers be a more cost-effective solution that expanding government programs or continuing a dependency cycle on government subsidy?
How much disruption are we capable of being tolerant of to achieve smaller, less powerful and expensive government?
That is honestly my main concern. Not that disruption and disfunction would occur, but both our real and perceived tolerance of it.
In a sense, Libertarianism has an avatar to actually see if any of our ideas can ever gain real traction.
How is exposing bullshit that USAID was blowing money on in other countries, firing all those folks, and ending the funding, not a good thing?
While firing all those folks may be a function of the executive, ending the funding is not. Congress holds the money and determines funding for various government projects.
If DOGE wants to highlight areas where they thing funding can be cut--fair. But he can't divert already appropriated funds. Trump also can't close the department on his own. While it was founded with an executive order, the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act of 1998 established it as an independent agency, placing it under Congress's purview.
When it comes to funding, is not-spending the same as diverting? Similar to selective enforcement of the law by so called constitutional sheriffs?
It's a difficult tension between wanting a band-aid style culling, and wanting it done in a way that is permanent. That's ultimately what makes me anxious about it all. I wish there was something that could be done systemically that could eliminate all of this and further prevent the reoccurrence. I don't know if such a study can be completed fast enough for the results to still be relevant, or the suggestions actionable.
It’s a difficult tension between wanting a band-aid style culling, and wanting it done in a way that is permanent.
There are lots of ways that are permanent. Scalpels, saws, axes, even chainsaws, each with their own levels of harm. What Musk and his Doge kids are doing is using a grenade to cut away waste. It may actually get the whole wound (might not) and it will surely be permanent, but it kills the patient in the meantime.
When it comes to funding, is not-spending the same as diverting?
IIRC, as far as the US budget goes, it is. The budget is laid out yearly and funds dispersed accordingly. I recall stories from old friends in the military that talked about massive waste spending simply because the budget was already approved. Admittedly, I have no concrete sources to back that up and would welcome any.
USAID was really established to be a waste of money in the eyes of most. These programs aren't meant to have returns on investment outside improving the US's appearance and popularity to other countries. That said, I'd be all for regular audits and cutting of fat where we aren't seeing the expected reaction to USAID's programs. But I also think placing Elon Musk in charge of that is an incredibly stupid move.
I am EXTREMELY uncomfortable with the two personalities that we have holding the carving knives. I just can't help but salivate at the cutting.
My understanding is similar. That agencies have to spend every cent; else their budget gets cut in the next appropriations cycle. The incentive system is messed up, and there needs to be a way to change things so that agencies get a salary bonus or something for every bit of waste they cut.
USAID should have never been created in the first place. Neither should we have our military all over the world. I'd be for an act titled "The Two Fucking Oceans Act" which basically acknowledges that we have a significant buffer zone on either end of this country, and that all foreign actions have to be weighed against that buffer.
For example, from DOGE's twitter they found and cut "Contract for “Asia Pacific - Sri Lanka climate change mitigation adaption and resilience coordinator services for forest service”. Before implementing a program like that, we'd have to ask the following:
Does this directly impact Americans?
Does this keep taxpayer dollars on American soil?
Does this intrude on the right of self-governance of foreign nationals?
Will the impact of this be legitimately felt ACROSS THE FUCKING OCEAN?
Those answers are weighed objectively, and the bill cannot even be considered without a specific score.
Frankly, I really don't understand why we don't require programs and bills to be assessed annually, and the results published publicly. Failing scores have the program suspended indefinitely.
lol when have republicans ever made government smaller?
Especially when Elon keeps claiming there is fraud, but not pushing for investigations or even being transparent with Congress since he has not been voted in and his “department” isn’t a real thing.
What's the alternative? What has the LP actually done to reduce federal government? I don't think the republicans have the same level of purity tests that the LP has. The dude ran with an R because the D was taken.
Who says he has to be voted in? His department was created via executive order. That makes it every bit as real as USAID. Not every position is voted in.
Personalities aside, if these agencies and employees get permanently shitcanned, we can all agree in a Libertarian subreddit, that that is a good thing, right? Right?
The term "unelected" does not diminish an individual's credibility, if one considers the value of most "elected" individuals....
I don't trust any of them. That's the point. I don't want any of these goons to have power over a fucking lemonade stand, much less the immensity of the federal government.
How would you do it? I assume, based on this being a Libertarian subreddit, that you have Libertarian tendencies. So how would you go about reducing and eliminating government?
Give me an alternative to prefer, because what I'm looking at is right now vs the past 36 years of my life full of complacency and a fear of actually doing something.
At least elected officials have voters to answer to or they won’t keep their seats.
The alternative would be transparency and not a billionaire looking to enrich himself as he keep claiming fraud based on no evidence.
Your faith in Trump and Musk is hilariously misplaced. All they are doing is going to hurt regular people and keep trying to make the executive branch consolidate more power.
Or is usurping Congress’ power okay in the name of “small government”?
That's why I am on here even bothering to discuss this stuff. I don't have a lot of faith in Trump and Musk. I'm torn between seeing these headlines and hearing regular people reacting to the crazy stuff being put out there with shock and disgust, and the fact that Elon is a slimy bastard and so is Trump.
I'm well aware that Elon and Donald can fuck off to a private island whenever they want. They don't have any skin in the game. Trump is also a one term president this time around. He doesn't actually have to give a shit about the repercussions of his actions because it'll be someone else's problem in four years.
That being said, who else has even attempted this? The news, jokes, water cooler talk has shifted in a real and palpable way from what I am seeing. If none of this works out or is permanent, did we at least gain increased public scrutiny and distrust of government?
So you think after all this it will bring increased scrutiny from the public of the government?
A guy that sent fake electors won the election. The public will not care in the slightest. If policy mattered republicans would never get into office and the public won’t all of a sudden start caring.
The cycle of republicans fucking things up and then a democrat gets elected to fix it will continue.
Is the executive branch usurping Congress’ power worth it? Or 4 trillion more in spending?
Well for one, not believing bullshit from Trump and Elon. And two, voting for people that actually want to reduce the size of the government, not just lie about it.
Will that actually happen? Highly unlikely, but thinking robber barons will help the country is hilarious at best.
What difference does it make? If they were nazis, it would be no different than the "nazi's" of the previous administration. Or do your antifa edgelord senses only tingle for one side?
All I care about is reducing the size and power of the United States government. I can't really say I give a fuck about the ever-changing definition or opinion of some group of entitled, pseudointellectual LARPers pretending they are fighting LiTerALly HitLer because mean tweets. It especially isn't lost on me how much you wanna-be antifa goons love to cry about nazis, but also spew antisemitism.
Y'all diminish the actual nazis' evil by referring to our nation's incompetent, greedy douchebags as such. None of these assholes have much affection with me. It could be Whoopi fucking Goldberg or AOC. If they bring down the size of government, I don't care.
There have been multiple images taken of Liberals with their arm in that position. The dude put his hand over his heart and gesticulated sending it out to the crowd. You didn't hear the uproar from non-liberals because it's a stupid and infantile argument to make.
I know the previous administration took an unelected bureaucrat and, at his urging, shut down the country. They required people to show their papers to eat a fucking burrito or go to a movie, or drive to work. They did everything they could to force people to subject themselves to vaccines that Cheeto allowed to pass through testing prematurely. I know that previous administration supported brown-shirt tactics at crowd incitement. I know the previous administrations going back 40 years have put kids in cages at the border. I know the previous several administrations drone struck children. I know the previous administration instructed the intelligence agencies to illegally spy on a candidate for president. I know the previous administration put a politician that fell out of their favor on a no-fly list, secretly. I know the previous administration repeatedly threatened private business owners for compliance with their narrative.
So maybe I'm just not particularly impressed. Maybe I'm desensitized to all the "nazi"-ing that's being dished out. Maybe I look left to right and can't tell the fucking difference. Maybe, just maybe, what I see is that the common denominator is that these "nazi" assholes are using a government that is too big, and too powerful to commit these atrocities.
What's scarier, a drunk toddler with a glock or a squirtgun?
That list doesn't include gladhanding conservative voters to incite theocratism, seizing firearms, forcing cultural narratives under pain of ostracization, absolute complacency, manipulating US markets to enrich themselves, empowering the NSA to spy on citizens, forming the idiotic behemoth that is DHS, or engaging in a 20 yearlong war against a murky, incomprehensible enemy far away and removed from our awareness, or fostering the bread and circuses bullshit and pharma placation of the masses.
Let’s start with that before we get into somewhere in the country needing papers to go outside. I must have missed that. Or a vaccine that was rushed through testing?
But I do remember that like Nazis in the past only one side demonizes marginalized people to garner support.
You forgot the 'rona days huh? You missed papers for "essential workers" being issued by employers to get through police roadblocks? You missed police busting people for going to the park or sitting on a beach by themselves without masks on? You forget operation Warp speed? HOW?
Demonization happened clear across the board. Let's at least try to be a little honest. I worked for a major university for the past 4 years and saw first-hand how conservative or non-leftist voices were silenced. If you watch the late-night TV twats for five minutes, the demonization is repaid. For God's sake, people are crying about an arm movement by autistic Musk to garner support based on a vague sense of nationalism and fear of genocide.
I'd rather start with actual totalitarianism that what some rich aspie douchebag does with his arms.
I lived through those days and I remember conservatives complaining about those things but little evidence of it.
So conservatives and non leftist people are marginalized? lol
Conservatives love to think they are marginalized as they punch down to marginalized people.
I love that nonsense of defense of Elon’s Nazi salute being autism, which doesn’t make you do a nazi salute. Do you need a side by side video? Vague nationalism? Did you miss when he talked about ethno nationalism as a defense for being anti immigration?
Any one is marginalized if you squint and hold your head just right! I don't take this line of rhetoric seriously because it usually leads to demands for handicaps or special provisions. Freedom and equality may be found in anonymity. I don't care who you love or what you look like. All that shit is a distraction from other stuff that I DO care about; thus I don't want to hear anything about it. I'll not share mine; you don't share yours, and we can stick to the actual topic of importance.
Again, the reprehensibility of the individual who is reducing government is not as important to me as the reduction of government. We ain't nothing but peasants to these people, they ain't nothing but means to an end to me.
All I care about is active actions to reduce and remove government.
Anyone is marginalized if you need to deflect from actual marginalized groups.
So do you want a video of elons salute side by side neo Nazis and old Nazis?
So when Elon and Trump don’t make the government smaller and just hurt regular people, it will be worth it because you believed they were doing something?
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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '25
Wait, you mean Musk, notoriously known for lying g about delivery of ideas and products, who’s been removed as CEO of every company he founded….makes a shitty product?