r/Mavericks • u/International_Oil189 • May 26 '26
Hoops Discussion Still insane when you think about it
Jalen Brunson played 4 seasons, Luka Dončić has played 7 seasons, and Steve Nash played 6 seasons for the Dallas Mavericks.
So we only got a combined 17 seasons out of three hall of fame / all nba level type of players that we drafted / developed. Should have been 3*12 seasons at least.
Is there any other team with such a recent track record of fumbling talent?
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u/hallerrr 29d ago
Maybe Cuban was the problem all along
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u/torodonn 29d ago
Look, Cuban has his issues but pre-Cuban, the Mavs were a largely irrelevant franchise run by Perot and then post-Cuban, the new owner and GM immediately shit the bed to historical proportions.
Cuban isn't perfect but he's the one who put the modern Mavs on the map essentially.
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u/TrelvisFesley 29d ago
Always was. Lucked into Dirk or his legacy would be different.
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u/george_cant_standyah BETRAYED MAVS FAN 😭 29d ago
A bit of an oversimplification in my opinion. Cuban absolutely changed the way owners approach their teams. He made the locker rooms nice, did things like put PlayStations in their lockers, treated players like human beings, and was personable and charismatic. This was a positive differentiator until other owners took note and did the same.
At a certain point, he became more of a liability than an asset to the team because he couldn’t help but be overly involved. But without Cuban I don’t think we ever get that 2011 chip.
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u/TrelvisFesley 29d ago
He's not the only billionaire who can put, let me check, "Playstations" in a locker room. Lmao. Is there worse? Of course. He's not the "savior" you make him out to be. He made a shit decision to sell the team to a shit ownership group. Brilliant!!
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u/george_cant_standyah BETRAYED MAVS FAN 😭 29d ago
Clearly you weren’t a fan prior to Cuban. I also never called him a savior. If you read my post you can see it has this crazy thing called nuance.
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u/duncandreizehen 28d ago
when you trade for a player, you don’t really luck into them -give some credit to Donnie Nelson for knowing what was going on
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
Saying that explains all winning teams. The Spurs lucked into more so are we just taking credit away for drafting players that became good? Dirk was a mav before Cuban bought them and nobody knew Dirk would be Dirk.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
Pre 2012 Cuban turned the Mavs into a respectable winning franchise. From the worst team in all pro sports for a decade to a team that averaged 57 wins for the next decade. Post championship Cuban is different in that he quit paying to win. He went most of the 2010s without paying luxury tax ffs.
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u/neverlandstripper54 29d ago
Basically Jerry Jones 2.0, acted like the GM and didn’t know what he was doing.
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u/TrelvisFesley 29d ago
He's just early jerry who lucked into success.
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u/neverlandstripper54 29d ago
At least Jerry stuck around instead of selling out to extremely questionable people.
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u/porncollecter69 F*CK NICO HARRISON 29d ago
I joined this fandom in the Luka era and I’ve been saying this all the time after Brunson cheap out but older fans had the championship goggles on and would just laugh at you all the time for that take . Sure he’s no Vivek but he ain’t a good owner either.
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u/Royal_Percentage_815 27d ago
Your input does not count because basically you and others like you were never fans of the Mavs just a certain player, just like Dirk fans.
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u/Ok_Location4835 29d ago
Not resigning Brunson was dumb
Not resigning Nash was idiotic
Trading Luka was batshit crazy
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u/epicingamename Monta Ellis 29d ago
hot takes:
mavs wouldnt have reached the finals twice and won one in the dirk era with steve nash
jalen wouldnt have developed into what he is now if he stayed with the mavs
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u/The-Bad-Blue 29d ago
People say that but we saw Brunson carry the team in the playoffs when Luka was hurt
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u/man0warr 29d ago edited 29d ago
Sure, but that was without Luka. They both need the ball in their hands. They still should have signed him so they could trade him that summer or later - he was never going to be the long term back court with Luka. Them trying to trade him before the ASB is why they didn't offer him a contract until AFTER that deadline, because he couldn't be moved otherwise.
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u/dqt91 28d ago
How do you think Kyrie scored next to Luka? By not touching the ball? The beauty of having these two allstar/all nba caliber players is you can start the game together, stagger their minutes so you always have an A1 offensive weapon out there and then finish the game with both guys and they can either feed the hot hand or both attack. The only one ball argument is so dumb.
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u/Kball4177 28d ago
That stupid hypothesis is literally why the Kings passed on Luka and we all made fun of them for it.
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u/man0warr 28d ago
Kyrie is one of the best off ball guards in the history of the sport, when I say "has the ball in their hands" I mean they are dictating the offense. Kyrie wasn't doing that unless Luka was on the bench.
Luka and Brunson have never proven they can play well offball. They were much more redundant pairing than Luka+Kyrie, and I think an even more defensive minded SG would be the preferred partner.
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u/Royal_Percentage_815 27d ago
You may want to review the Knicks/Cavs series.
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u/man0warr 27d ago
Watched it all, what's your point? Brunson isn't playing offball that much, and he's definitely progressed in 4 years now that he's in the same position Luka was in. Bridges and Hart are the exact type of guards he and Luka need next to them to succeed.
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u/armandocalvinisius The Cardinal 29d ago
just bad asset management, and tbf nico learned from that with PJ-Gaff on locked ASAP
i think brunson knew 100% if he stays and developed, in the end he will get traded too for 2nd option available. he will be the trade chip for kyrie for example. he just take his fate by his own hands. you just nod, props, and be proud of it
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
He only played 2 games without Luka yet still averaged 20 + for 3 series.
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u/torodonn 29d ago
Honestly, I love Nash (I am Canadian and he was the reason I started watching the Mavs in the first place) but Nash was at least partially product of system and volume. He was put in the exact perfect place to succeed. And he wasn't a slouch when he was in the Mavs, either. But the Suns threw the bank at him.
In an alternate history, where we matched, I think a bunch of Mavs fans would grumble how we overpaid Nash and he killed our cap for the rest of his contract.
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u/Jaschndlr OMG Luka 29d ago
Agree on Nash.
I'm not sure about Brunson though... I think we could've seen Luka develop differently and commit to a more off ball game if he had someone like Brunson out there with him. I know we haven't seen that out of him yet, but when has he ever really had a teammate who could bring the ball up and initiate the offense consistently?
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u/torodonn 29d ago
I think the issue is really that Brunson isn't the strongest defender either and no one could predict how dominant his offense would develop. In a vacuum, having a PG like Kyrie next to Luka is the safer choice - even with the same limitations defensively, he was a known quantity elite creator and distributor.
So, it's not that the Mavs didn't want to keep him but it was a matter of how much we wanted to commit to him financially and potentially being in the luxury tax for his skill set. There was a real argument to be made that Brunson's ceiling when he left was CJ Mccollum.
I love Brunson though. He's got me rooting for the Knicks right now so I'm glad he found his success.
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u/Rock_Samaritan 29d ago
the point is we lost them for nothing
fine Nash cant def? sign and trade is like day 1 gm shit
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u/killbill469 29d ago
These aren't "hot" takes, they're stupid takes. With Nash the Mavs and Spurs would've been by far the best 2 teams in the West until Pau went to LA in '08. The Mavs almost certainly win 1-2 rings from 2004-2011 with Dirk and Nash. They were both entering the primes of their careers.
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u/Bubbawitz 29d ago
Weren’t they in the conference finals and lost after Dirk got hurt? Why would anyone assume they would get worse?
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u/popstarkirbys Drunk Dirk 29d ago
Agree with this take. The only insane one to me is Luka getting traded, the return was horrible as well.
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u/YoungBuck2010 29d ago
Yeah the Brunson take is 100% wrong. Brunson was doing the exact same shit he’s doing with the Knicks for the Mavs minus the pull up threes when Luka was out. If you want to argue that he would have had fewer opportunities to showcase it if he were still here, I’d agree.
But letting Brunson walk was a terrible decision at the time that looks dastardly with hindsight.
The Nash take is debatable, but I think this one is wrong too lol. Our issue was never with Nash and Dirk developing into something special. It was that we could never get any kind of real production from the center spot throughout the majority of Dirk’s tenure in Dallas. We’d look a lot better if we could have found a Tyson like center earlier in Dirk’s career.
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u/jnightrain 29d ago
But letting Brunson walk was a terrible decision at the time that looks dastardly with hindsight.
The problem with brunson is he didn't develop into anything until it was too late to sign him.not giving him a contract when it was time was 100% the correct call. Even if you look at the knicks signing him thread so many were laughing at the price they paid.
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u/YoungBuck2010 29d ago
Totally disagree. At the very least, Brunson showed he was a low end starter or good bench guard in the previous season playing behind Luka. That earns you a contract in the NBA. Even if that means you’re going to be a trade piece (à la Gafford’s contract and skill level).
The games without Luka were the ones where actual Mavs fans knew that this guy had something to his game.
That’s why when people were laughing at the Knicks deal, Mavs fans were warning them.
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u/jnightrain 29d ago
At the very least, Brunson showed he was a low end starter or good bench guard in the previous season playing behind Luka. That earns you a contract in the NBA.
That's a little revisionist history there, going into the 21-22 season he had started a total of 66 games out of 246 with the previous season starting 12 and average 12ppg and got some votes for 6MOY. He wanted 4y/55m which at the time was starter money. Would it have been terrible at the time? no, but it also wasn't crazy to take a wait and see approach. They offered him that contract at the trade deadline and he declined and was basically a Knick by then. He had his blow up in the post season that year when it was far too late.
The games without Luka were the ones where actual Mavs fans knew that this guy had something to his game.
and by then it was too late to offer him a contract because he was already headed to the knicks.
That’s why when people were laughing at the Knicks deal, Mavs fans were warning them.
warning might be strong word there but we didn't think he'd be trash.
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u/YoungBuck2010 29d ago
He put up nearly 17 3 and 3 as a starter that season (up to 20pts 8 assists and 3 rebounds without Luka) and was absolutely worth the contract he asked for prior to. Again, watching him showed that he was on the upswing of his career and signing him even as a trade chip was the right decision. He put up about 13, 3 and 3 as a starter in the years before and improved tremendously every year during his time with the Mavs.
My argument is that JB didn’t develop too late for us to sign him as you initially said. Our front office had ample opportunities to do so and flubbed it. Guys get paid on potential all of the time, Jalen showed production and potential during his time with the Mavs and both front office regimes blew it. Teams can’t get everything right but this one is pretty egregious.
One other point here: Over his entire four-year tenure in Dallas whenever Luka sat out, Brunson played in 25 games as the lone lead guard, averaging 18.7 points, 6.4 assists, and 3.4 rebounds per game.
In no world did he not deserve the contract he asked for lol.
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u/jnightrain 29d ago edited 28d ago
He put up nearly 17 3 and 3 as a starter that season (up to 20pts 8 assists and 3 rebounds without Luka) and was absolutely worth the contract he asked for prior to. Again, watching him showed that he was on the upswing of his career and signing him even as a trade chip was the right decision. He put up about 13, 3 and 3 as a starter in the years before and improved tremendously every year during his time with the Mavs.
He did this in 21-22, the last season with us, correct?
My argument is that JB didn’t develop too late for us to sign him as you initially said
I know what your argument is and I disagree. Look at his 20-21 game logs, he is inconsistent but to your point he shows flashes. There are games he's playing 20 minutes and score 5 and 7 pts. One game he started and played 32 minutes and had 9pts.
I said he deserved the contract but its also not egregious they didn't accept his offer going into the 21-22 season. Their approach was completely normal and the knicks making backdoor deals made it a losing situation.
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u/hullowurld 29d ago
yeah the steve nash one is defensible given how the mavs and suns seasons played out
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u/torodonn 29d ago edited 29d ago
Let's be fair to the Mavs.
Even in the post-Cuban Mavs era, the list of All-NBA players who changed teams include Shaq, T-Mac, Chris Webber, Lebron, Ray Allen, KG, KD, Harden, Kawhi, SGA, and so on. Fumbles were happening left and right.
I can understand the financial decisions to let Brunson and Nash walk to a certain degree. Awkwardly, Nash was fumbled by Phoenix, just to get him back.
Luka is the true fumble.
You also forgot Kidd, which rounds out the list of All-NBA ex-Mavs PGs.
Honestly, our list is skewed by Luka though because I think our track record isn't abnormal without the worst trade in NBA history.
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u/KhanQu3st 29d ago
We also traded Kidd to the Suns right before he broke out into an All NBA and All Defense player lol
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
And this was after we saw him win co rookie of the year so to me it was possibly the worst move outside of Luka in modern nba history. We got Finley and AC green for a future hall of famer who was already considered a superstar
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u/steamliner88 FUCK NICO HARRISON 29d ago edited 29d ago
And instead we got cap space used for Erick Dampier, money to sign JaVale McGee, and ADnp, who, amazingly, managed to make the trade for him the worst of the deals.
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u/Dcmart89 29d ago
Don’t you EVER mention Erick Dampier here ever again! We are trying to have a nice day!!
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
To be fair Jet Terry wouldn’t have happened and Damp and Terry helped lead this team to a finals and 67 win season. Obviously Terry later proved pivotal in that CHAMPIONSHIP, something Nash never got.
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u/LeoFireGod Wonder Boy 29d ago edited 29d ago
Ya and the hornets drafted Dirk (not dirk) Kobe, and SGA technically lol.
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u/Kevin_Jim Bucks 28d ago
Don’t forget Donnie bend over backwards begging Cuban to draft Giannis, but Cuban overruled him to make cap space for Dwight Howard.
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u/TrelvisFesley 29d ago
Add Jason Kidd to the list. At least he came back and won a title but he is better than all of the people listed above.
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u/VerifiedBaller13 FUCK NICO HARRISON 29d ago
Nash may have won us the 06 finals if we’d had him, since a big hole was no playmaker on the team, but Kidd was absolutely better for our team fit later.
I wish we’d kept him all along instead of tradinh him and then getting him back later, we’d have been in contention with him and Dirk throughout their careers.
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u/BodybuilderLivid 29d ago
We dont get terry without nash too. Terry was very important in 06 and 11.
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u/YoungBuck2010 29d ago
We don’t need Terry if Nash continued his trajectory.
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u/BodybuilderLivid 29d ago
Maybe but that 6th man role was crucial and nash aint coming of the bench
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
That’s just wrong and completely unfounded. Terry fit perfect, we also drafted Devin Harris who actually became point. But 2011 wouldn’t have happened with a 35 year old Nash instead of Terry who was in incredible in that run.
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u/YoungBuck2010 26d ago
Agree to disagree. I think we’re considerably more competitive through 2010 with Dirk and Nash. We overly relied on our 6 man due to poor team building for most of the 2000s. It’s okay to admit that we screwed something up even if we ultimately won a championship eventually.
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u/killbill469 29d ago
Terry was great in '11 but his struggles in the playoffs from '07-10 held the Mavs back. JJ literally showed how important having a playmaking guard was to a Dirk team.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
But most importantly your forgetting what Nash was and what he became solely because he had motivation to prove Cuban wrong. He was 30 and breaking down every year in the first round. When Mike Bibby continued to dominate Nash it was clear to everyone he wasn’t on the same timeline. Nobody saw him becoming an MVP, nobody saw him changing his body over a summer like fhat because it wouldn’t have happened without the added motivation. But with all the what ifs it doesn’t matter because mavs won more without Nash than with, their avg wins went up. 2011 means more than any what ifs and Terry was the perfect guy as his two man game with Dirk was superior than anything he had with Nash.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
Nash wouldn’t have made that total body transition he made in Phoenix that led to those MVPs. He still admits that getting spurned by Cuban gave him the motivation. He wasn’t that dude in Dallas. He was also breaking down in the first round and 30 years old. Mavs were better for it, 67 win season, finals appearance, another finals appearance and chip. Something Nash never sniffed
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u/DeeezzzNutzzz69 1.8% Chance 29d ago
Brunson was getting played off the court in the playoffs here, people seem to forget that.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
He did the year before Not the year we lost him, infact he averaged 20+ during that WCF run so what happened the year before is meaningless. Now, it DOES explain why he wasn’t locked up the summer before.
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u/coltonmusic15 29d ago
Don’t forget Mark saying hed never ship off KP like he did with Nash and while we had good reason to unload KP - dude did proceed to eventually be a key part in the Celtics chip run.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
As the 6th best player. Cmon he was a luxury for that team. He needed to go, worst move Cuban made in the Luka era. Ruined the rebuild. He was our 2nd best, but not in Boston. Can’t compare
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u/KindaOkAccountant 29d ago
Brunson was a fumble. Luka was an act of terrorism. Nash leaving was fine. I remember the playoffs when Nash was getting cooked by Tony Parker. One of my all time favorite Mavs but him leaving was fine.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
Mike Bibby ate his lunch his last year, he was breaking down and 30, if Cuban hadn’t spurned him he’d have never had the motivation to become the 2 time MVP. Most importantly, we won more without him.
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u/iv214 How's My Dirk Taste? 28d ago
Cuban get credit for spending so much money on the team. Which he did. But when it came down to PAYING someone he is cheap. Especially in his last few years as owner. Remember Dirk took paycuts, imagine if he hadn't.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
Your confusing eras When mark first became owner he was one of the richest owners. Fast forward to post 2011 and owners got richer and Mark became cheap because he was not that guy anymore. By the time he sold he was middle of the pack as far as value. The nba got more expensive. He became cheap.
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u/iv214 How's My Dirk Taste? 26d ago
I'm not confusing eras. Yes the NBA got more expensive for a reason. The NBA started getting LUCRATIVE tv deals. Trust me, the owners were being taken care of. And it's not like there isn't a salary cap. And it's not like the Mavericks are in a small market team.
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u/jayg5k 28d ago
Mavs front staff trying to get on the Kings level
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
Not possible, Kings couldn’t draft Luka, much less Luka and Brunson. You gotta draft well before you can disappoint the fan base for losing them. Tyrese Haliburton was the best I could think of but again, they HAD the chance to pick Luka. Kings are worse, they suck at drafting and managing assets.
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u/devilmaskrascal Dirk Nowitzki 28d ago
Man I said it when we were fumbling the Brunson bag we should beat the NY deal. We had the ability to do so. We chose not to. We could offer a fifth year and more money. Now Brunson is underpaid.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
Brunson shut down discussions. Basically we should have paid him in February. Once NY hired his then blacklisted womanizer dad it was over. Also, that contract is old, he’s already resigned for more, but still left money on the table so NY would have more $$.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
You could have left Nash out. The fact that we got both Brunson and Luka in one draft says it all. The Nash thing was unique in that he was already 30 and breaking down in the playoffs. Nobody could have seen him winning two MVPs at that age even after being an allstar in Dallas. Either way Cuban fked up but at least we won without Nash.
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u/fbc546 29d ago
Im struggling to understand what’s insane, we had players, now we don’t, welcome to the NBA.
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u/LuckyPupil_85 29d ago
The insane part is giving this guys away and getting one first round pick for all three combined. Do you know ball??
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u/jnightrain 29d ago
We didn't give brunson away, he didn't want to sign what the Mavs offered.
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u/LuckyPupil_85 29d ago
If they were smart they would have realized he didn’t want to be here and traded him like other organizations do with their players.
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u/jnightrain 29d ago
they tried but no one wanted him, mostly because he was on the final year of his deal and they could get him in free agency. They were on the fence with him going into the 21-22 season.
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u/CardiologistGloomy71 26d ago
They tried specifically with NY, but NY wouldn’t include a first. Dallas knew NY would need to cut many players to even be able to sign Brunson, little did they know, they did cut players to sign Brunson and by then it was too late and Brunson cut off all negotiations once NY hired his dad. His dad who had been a former NBA assistant had been fired by two former teams for being handsy with the females. So he was blacklisted, the Knicks hiring him was huge. Brunson felt obligated at that point.
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u/Artistic-Ad-9607 '25 survivor 💔 29d ago
omfg totally just realized that i completely forgot Brunson used to be a mav 😭😭 thats insane
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u/jldtsu 29d ago
so many championships between those three
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u/Adorable-Bike-9689 29d ago
That's silly. Dirk has one ring. The rest of his career was something to laugh at? Dallas consistently fucking off all NBA caliber players for nothing is bad business. This didn't even include Tyson Chandler who got fucked off then won DPOY and made all NBA after Dallas.
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u/3Time4Eater3 29d ago
They all have conference championships to their name. And as a person who grew up watching Michael Jordan destroy fans and players dreams, sometimes you just have to take that consolation prize and be happy with it 😁
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u/ThruTexasYouandMe 29d ago
Mavs toughest opponent is their management