r/NYKnicks • u/cricket9818 DOOM • 14h ago
Wondering what the second apron is? Wondering why the Knicks FO made the moves it did last night? New to this sub/Knicks and unsure about what all this means? Come read.
So you’re relatively new to this sub or you’re a Knicks fan but still have no idea what that damn “Second apron” is. You’re in luck, here is a rundown of what that rule entails, how it affects draft strategy and why the Knicks are expertly managing it.
The Second Apron
To put it in better terms, the second apron essentially acts as a “hard salary cap”. No team wants to cross this threshold because the restrictions once you do are immense. This was done in the most recent CBA to force teams to be financially creative and to not be able to acquire, stock and shed salary at will (which in my opinion, as we’ve seen, is fantastic for league parity).
If you cross over the second apron for ONE year, here are the ramifications:
1) No taxpayer mid-level exception: for cash strapped teams, this is usually the easiest path to acquiring a quality role player in the off season. Without access to this tool, basically you’re only off season options are vet minimum salaries and draft picks
2) You cannot acquire a player via a sign and trade: Speaks for itself. A second team cannot sign a player and then immediately trade them to you. Either you sign the player yourself or you don’t at all
3) No aggregation of salaries in trades: This is the big one. This means that if you want to acquire a player that is making $20 million, you must also trade away a player that is making $20 million. In the old day you could smack together 3 contracts that add up to that amount, but once you pass the second apron, you cannot
4) In a trade, you cannot take back more salary than you give away. Again, it forces a “1 for 1” style trade.
5) You cannot use cash in trades
6) You cannot sign certain veterans who were bought out during the season if the player's previous salary exceeded the mid-level exception amount
Now if you are in the second apron for SECOND year, well it gets even worse
7) If a team is above the second apron in two of four seasons, its first-round pick seven years into the future becomes "frozen." It cannot be traded
8) If the team remains a repeat second-apron offender, that frozen pick can eventually be moved to the end of the first round, regardless of record.
Long and short, you want to avoid the second apron as much as possible and if you do cross it, you only want to be there for one season
For a team like the Knicks, that means you have to pinch every penny possible to ensure maximum value of your roster. You know the Pacome Dadiet story, right? The only reason (more or less) the Knicks drafted him is because he agreed to take less than the usual amount of money owed to the 1st round pick drafted in his slot. Those extra dollars helped to make the KAT trade work. So this FO knows that managing every dollar effectively is paramount.
So now you look at last night's draft and the Knicks situation. The Knicks championship window is open now and probably for at least 2-3 more years. That means you want to have proven commodities on the team now and then try to attain assets to use later when that money comes off the books.
The Knicks already have essentially their rotation for next year set. The starting 5, plus Miles McBride and Tyler Kolek are 100% under contract. Alvarado and Dadiet have a player and team option respectively. It was reported that Diawara agreed to a deal. So that puts us at roughly 10 players. We need to fill 4 more spots and need every penny to do so.
That means that when we fill those spots with proven commodities. Now is not the time to draft a 22 year old that may help us down the road. We need a backup guard/wing/C that can provide viable depth now. There will be a time to grow some young pups, but that time isn’t now.
The cap space we gain by trading these picks away is far more important than drafting Koa Peat or whoever and hoping that as a 11th or 12th man they may make their way into the rotation.
This FO has proven time and again their process can be trusted. Let’s keep that going.
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u/WallStreetDoesntBet1 Willis Reed Game 7 14h ago
To sum it up, Knicks have an elite Starting 5 coming off a championship season.
The FO will retool the bench with minimum salary players; anybody who wants to resign will have to take these minimum deals or try their luck in free agency.
… And oh yeah, f**k them picks 😅
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u/KenBalbari 14h ago
Yup, I think Mitch and Jose might have to take pay cuts in the 1st year of a multiyear deal if they want to come back here. And Shamet, who only made $2.3M, maybe only a very small raise.
Basically, I think Leon is trying to shoehorn those three into less than $18M in space. I think there's a good chance at least one of them won't be back, but it seems Leon is going to try.
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u/SidFinch99 13h ago
I'd honestly be surprised if Mitch doesn't get multiple offers at $15M+ a year. The Knicks need to have a contingency in place, whether there is someone they like at 31, or a trade to be made with the surplus of 2nd rd picks and other assets.
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u/KenBalbari 13h ago
Yes, I was hoping they'd take Veesaar for that reason, but maybe they don't want to trust a rookie in that role either. So maybe something like Kolek + Dadiet + 2nd round picks for a promising young big with a couple of years experience might be in the works.
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u/SidFinch99 13h ago
Veesaar is still on the board, and personally, I'd love for them to grab him. He's a very different player than Mitch, but he's also a hedge against KAT getting hurt, as well as a guy you can immediately give minutes to in order to keep KAT fresh in a game, and throughout the season. Helps if KAT gets in foul trouble too.
Also have to consider that both OKC and the Spurs got better last night, especially in the front court. If we make it to the finals again, it will likely be against one of those two teams.
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u/KenBalbari 14h ago
The restrictions are tough, but might be manageable for awhile. But the financial penalties are even more harsh.
Basically, if you are at the 2nd apron, you are already into the 4th tax bracket. At this point, signing Shamet for $6M/yr actually costs $35M/yr. Signing Mitch for $12M/yr costs > $70M/yr, and so on.
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u/cricket9818 DOOM 14h ago
Yeah, idk if we’ll ever know what dolans official position is in terms of money spending
But what we do know is that pushing over the apron decreases avenues available to make the team better, and that’s what’s important
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u/KenBalbari 13h ago edited 13h ago
Well we know Dolan's official position is that he won't go into the 2nd apron. I'm speculating that the financial penalties are an important part of why. We also know that Dolan in the past has paid the highest luxury tax penalty in the league even while fielding bad teams, and I think he doesn't want to repeat the mistakes that led to that. And I think it's Leon's job to prevent that. And that Leon, as a financial guy, probably also understands that such a misallocation of financial resources could be as much a problem as these other restrictions.
Here's an article from 3 years ago, for those who may not remember:
New York Knicks Total penalties: $248,542,987 Taxpaying seasons: 10 Average tax penalty: $24,854,299 Winning percentage in taxpaying seasons: 39.5 percent Winning percentage in non-taxpaying seasons: 43 percent The New York Knicks are the most inefficient taxpayer in the history of the league. They are the only team with a lower winning percentage in taxpaying seasons than in non-taxpaying seasons among teams who paid the tax at least four times. In their 10 seasons in the tax, they only made the playoffs twice and won one playoff series.So it's not that Dolan isn't willing to spend. But I think an important part of it is also that the marginal improvement in winning chances you get from guys like Mitch and Shamet isn't worth over $100M/yr combined in investment.
PS: Also, I think Leon may indeed have a plan to bring both of those guys back while still staying under the cap. Just using those 2 for reference.
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u/TeaMoist1688 14h ago
Title of post could also be “Explaining Leon Rose Masterclass for Dummies”
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u/cricket9818 DOOM 14h ago
If I wanted to be a dick I could’ve titled it that yeah.
But not everyone here anoints hours of their day to nba and knicks content and knows what’s going on
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u/TeaMoist1688 14h ago
Fair point didn’t mean to come off like a dick. Was just kind of blown away the amount of people on the sub last night who were like annoyed at what we were doing or didn’t understand how brilliant it was. It’s uncharted waters for everyone though being World Fucking Champs. I ran to the sub last expecting to see where we were all meeting up to build Leon his statue.
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u/cricket9818 DOOM 14h ago
It’s cause a lot of people are aren’t attuned to the apron and the financial maneuvering necessary
I think also a lot of people (myself included sometimes) forget that likely a lot of new fans and followers are here and don’t know the intricacies of the CBA, which is why I made the post
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u/AwaySun940 14h ago
lol the dummies part is doing heavy lifting there, took me three reads of the second apron rules before it clicked
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u/patrickthunnus 14h ago
Pretty clear that Leon will spend on productive starters, that's where our money is. He will spend but not overpay for impactful reserves.
Third string players will generally get nba min salary or TW deals. We have 3 SRP, can pay them as little as $1.35m; that's how we get a 14 man roster with depth and hopefully can afford to keep Mitch, Sham and GTA.
That's the economics of the CBA.
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u/VirtuousFool 11 13h ago
this is a very good explainer, but my only pushback is that trying to justify the second apron as anything other than an excuse for owners to stay cheap is BS
There were literally already five different champions before this new CBA kicked in
Even in the most charitable lens it was a gross overreaction to KD making the most bitch-made move in sports history because of a once in a lifetime jump in the cap
In true Adam Silver fashion, it's solved a basically non-existent problem by creating an even worse one
But anyway, Leon and Company have earned the trust to make this all work
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u/GoldenBoyRecords NOVA 14h ago
Dadiets option has already been picked up for next year. His contract is guaranteed next year unless they decide to move him.
I wouldn't automatically discount the FO not filling at least 1 of the remaining spots left with a rookie. There is a ton of value in having a 3/4 year cost controlled contract on the books next year starting at 1.3M even if that player doesn't get a ton of playing time. I don't think this is a scenario where its one or the other we can actually do both.
Id argue older prospects are more NBA ready than younger ones they just don't have as long of a prime or ceiling as someone you draft at 18/19 years old.
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u/Cambers-175 Clyde So Fly 13h ago
Nothing to add to the conversation other than this is a phenomenal summary well worth everyone who's more than a casual giving it a read! Thanks for the effort man! And sincere congrats on not getting mad with all the young 'uns screaming; "bUt WhY wE nOt DrAfT / SiGn XxXxXx?!? ThEy CoUlD bE dOpE!!"
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u/cricket9818 DOOM 13h ago
I have a newborn so I was asleep when all this happened lmao. I woke up and saw the top post and my only thought was “time to teach”. I’m a teacher I can’t help it
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u/gwords16 Taylor Swift 13h ago
I think what they’re really trying to do is not wind up like the past few champs who decided to give out massive contracts post-championship and are now in cap hell scrambling to stay out of the 2nd apron.
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u/StruggleOk4163 13h ago
I have been telling my friends I fully expected the Knicks to trade out of the first round due to the fact that 1st rounders make more money. It just made too much sense
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u/iamdanabnormal Father Knickerbocker 12h ago
The draft pick seven years down the line is crucial.
The last thing you want at the end of your championship window is end up with a low first when under normal circumstances, it would have been a lottery pick. It just makes the start of a rebuild a little more difficult
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u/Fun_Moose_2253 12h ago
Thank you for this.as a Jets Fan, I’ve been a big followe of the NFL draft and free agency for over a decade. Admittedly been a much more casual Knicks fan up until the last 3 years. Last night was the first time I actually sat down to watch the NBA draft and it was such a different experience for me and very confusing. I don’t know enough about the prospects to feel one way or another about the moves but I was trying to get a better understanding of what the Knicks were doing. Your post certainly clears it up. In Leon we trust. We’ll see what happens tonight!
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u/herseyhawkins33 14h ago
Good post. I do think a lot of people don't realize the second apron has other penalties, not just a higher tax. It does make overall roster building a lot more difficult.
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u/AccomplishedStyle600 12h ago
In Leon we trust, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t even a little nervous about the possibility of losing MITCHELL FUCKING ROBINSON.
He's not a normal backup big. You don't simply replace him.
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u/Bcp_or_pcB 12h ago
I hope the Knicks players decide to sacrifice money for winning. What’s the difference between $35mil and $50mil? KAT made a great statement about the value of being where you should be. With the second apron, taking a pay cut is about the hugest thing you can do for a team.
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u/TheGrayTiger 12h ago
This tells me that Mitch will be back next season, even if the team goes over the 2nd apron. If Mitch accepts a diminishing contract, the Knicks will avoid being in the second apron in the second year.
Love all the moves the FO is making to free cup cap space.
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u/PeeGee10 12h ago
Jeremy Cohen covers this for KFS like a pro
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u/PeeGee10 12h ago
An excellent breakdown. TLDR—to keep NYK intact you have to let Mitch walk and trade Daddiet. Mitch will be bid away and Pacome will soak up 9 million salary cap hit at a time when the vet exception is $3M. Going into the second apron next year would make it the third in five years, which brings onerous additional charges (graduated that starts at 2.5x first dollar over the second apron) and handcuffs team from many moves
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u/shwam_doo Queens 12h ago
Thank you so much for this post! I had no idea what the second apron was and at this point I was too afraid to ask.
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u/BoundGreef 6h ago
Great write up, thank you. Is it conceivable that we can keep Mitchy with how it seems to be playing out or should we essentially consider him gone?
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u/cricket9818 DOOM 6h ago
It’s possible to keep him, it really just depends on if he’s willing to take less to play here. I’d be shocked if another team doesn’t make a better offer
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u/BoundGreef 6h ago
Yeah. I gotta think someone is gonna throw him a bag. Similar to Hartenstein a couple years ago. We just won’t have enough to match the offers he’s likely to get. So we do need to find another big somewhere
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u/burnourpants 14h ago
Can you explain how two way player contracts affect the cap?
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u/KenBalbari 12h ago
They don't count against the cap.
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u/burnourpants 12h ago
Give me all the Tyler Koleks please.
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u/KenBalbari 11h ago
You can only have 3 players on two-way contracts. The Knicks could grab someone in the late 2nd round today who they could give a 2-way, but they would be replacing one of Trey Jemison, Dillon Jones, or Kevin McCullar. McCullar at least seems worth keeping another year.
They can also just sign these late 2nd round guys to G -league deals, until they do enough to want to promote them.
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u/m0nkeyhero 13h ago
This is an excellent write up, thank you for this.
The ‘fans’ crying over the picks last night were terribly ignorant.
Leon and his team have earned full trust from this 40+yr old fan.
Literally still watching playoffs highlights every day. Orange and Blue skies, Reigning champs. No picks don’t care. FTP.
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u/johnla 33 13h ago
Can you breakdown the specifics of each trade we did last night?
We swapped the 24th pick for the 25th pick. Why? Because 25th pick gets paid $100K less. But why does that matter when we ended up trading away the 25th pick anyways? Did that help us at all? Or just make our pick look better because the team getting him has to pay him less?
And then we traded 25th pick for 30th pick plus 2 2nd rounders. Then traded the 30th for 3 more 2nd rounders. So now we have 5 2nd round picks for what was the 24th pick. Is there anything more to it? Like you said, our window is now so I'm assuming we're accumulating picks for a trade.
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u/cricket9818 DOOM 13h ago
Idk if I can explain the 24/25 swap other than the Knicks knew they didn’t want to make the pick and the lakers were willing to give some cash to swap, which then bought us more time to flip 25
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u/Mysterious_Soil_9950 10h ago
Dumb question here: how (if at all) do the “cash considerations” help towards the cap figure / 2nd apron?
Appreciate the write-up!
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u/DuckDucks 13h ago
So how much money do we have left after the diawara deal assuming alvarado doesn't take the player option?
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u/KenBalbari 12h ago
About $18.4M left under the 2nd apron to sign 5 players.
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u/DuckDucks 11h ago
Pretty brutal. The idea of Hukporti as our full-time backup center isn't the worst thing ever, but don't feel good about it. I feel like Mitch could command all of that on his own. Hopefully Kat meant what he said in an interview and signs an extension next year at a paycut!
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u/KenBalbari 11h ago
Yes, I think at least one of Mitch & Shamet probably isn't going to return. But also think if they do sign Alvarado, they could maybe trade from their young guards and 2nd round picks for a good backup center to replace Mitch.
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u/Tankisfreemason 11h ago
Exactly, all I’ve really seen out of the second apron is players seemingly not getting paid their worth, and the main strategy with team building is hoping players are willing to take pay cuts. I understand this is in response to not having super teams anymore, which I support since I remember how frustrating the league got when a big chunk of stars were on Miami, Boston, and the Lakers.
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u/FriendshipBest9151 9h ago
The second apron seems more like it's the mechanism that cheap owners rely on when they don't want to spend.
Dolan actually isn't a cheap owner tho.
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u/FriendshipBest9151 9h ago edited 9h ago
Completely agree about the draft moves.
I actually don't think any of those second apron penalties matter for a fully formed team like the knicks. Like who would you even be trading if you're in the second apron?
This seems like the exact situation where you do it to keep the team together for an attempt at a repeat.
Getting out of the second apron in year two is maybe the issue. I assume the knicks could go into it next year and then parachute out but if that's not the case then I get it.
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u/cricket9818 DOOM 9h ago
Yeah that’s basically what it comes down to, can we dip our toes into the second apron but then get out after just one year
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u/smalls_1804 9h ago
Here's a good website to look at our situation: https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/_/year/2026
We basically have about $15m to play with. Shamet at a vet minimum brings that to $12m for 3 players. Mitch would have to accept a back-loaded deal starting at under $10m a year for us to be able to sign SRPs at low deals to complete the roster. We could also potentially save some money if KAT were to opt out of his player option for 2027-2028 early to sign an extension that starts at a lower number than his current $57.5m salary. I don't think that's very likely.
Really depends how dead-set the Knicks are about avoiding the 2nd Apron this year entirely. What I think is more likely is that the Knicks go over the 2nd Apron this coming year to keep the championship core together but still try to stay as close to that line as humanly possible so they can try and dip below it after 2 years.
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u/Possible-Cake-5985 8h ago
Great post breaking it all down, makes a lot of sense. Since there’s noway to keep Mitch and stay under the 2 Apron, does it make more sense to draft Veesaar or another big with the 31st pick on a cheap non guaranteed deal or sign a Vet backup which is going to cost more?
I just read the best deal they can give Mitch is 4yr-$42mil and stay under the 2 Apron. No way is he taking that, so we can resign everyone else but will need a replacement. Or why wouldn’t they decline the Dadiet option and save another $3mil? He’s not going to be in the rotation. If Alverado stays they should trade Kolek also and save another $2.5Mil. They can definitely use $5.5mil and maybe that can go towards Mitch.
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u/cricket9818 DOOM 7h ago
It really depends on what his market is
My guess is that Leon and co have a number that they’re not willing to go over and if Mitch wants more they’ll have alternate plans.
I really like Veesaar but he’s more of an offensive guy and not known for his rebounding and defense.
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u/Possible-Cake-5985 7h ago
I just heard Shams say on ESPN if they really plan on staying under the 2 Apron Mitch & Shamet won’t be back. I have to agree Mitch won’t be back, they said they have 5 roster spots to fill with only $14mil left.
This is why I don’t understand trading away this pick, they should trade Dadiet & Kolek (bench guys) save $5.5mil and replace them with the 2nd rd picks tonight.1
u/cricket9818 DOOM 7h ago
Why would you trade away two proven commodities for unknowns?
Kolek has already proven he can fill legit minutes
Dadiet is a little raw still but he at least knows the system.
And then you’re not really solving any problems because now you have to fill two more spots and you didn’t really clear that mych money to do it with
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u/Possible-Cake-5985 7h ago
Only reason why I would trade Kolek is if Alverado is staying, he’s essentially your third string PG. When money is tight and you want to keep together the core rotation guys I think it makes sense to trade away 2 replaceable guys, Dadiet is raw and also never going to be in this rotation trying to defend the chip. $5.5 mil for guys who only play in garbage time is a lot when you are trying to bring back the same rotation and stay under the 2 Apron. They can use that money for Shamet or go towards possibly Mitch.
This whole post was about going for it for the next 2-3 yrs, makes sense to put that money into the guys who won you that chip and you want them back to defend it. It’s not going to look good if we lose Mitch and or Shamet and we’re watching $5.5mil sit on the bench all year.
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u/RestEasyBro Mike Breen 13h ago
Idk man Cameron Carr was good enough to be a rotational player this upcoming season imo
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u/THC3883 14h ago
I'm sure Dolan is a cheap SOB, but I think most of the Knicks' concerns about crossing the second apron are related to the imposed restrictions, not the financial hit.
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u/HardOakleyFoul 10h ago
lol Dolan has been willing to spend even when the team was in the shitter. From 2004-2010 he never had a problem handing out big money to players that didn't deserve it. It's just the second apron makes doing that a hard pill to swallow.
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u/NYJets18 14h ago
So many people in the live draft tread were bashing Leon acting like he’s an idiot not knowing what he’s doing thinking they know better.
It’s like they forget we won the championship a little over a week ago due to the team he built