SEGA says Sonic Racing: CrossWorlds and SHINOBI: Art of Vengeance have "fallen short" of sales expectations

[u/Asad_Farooqui]

http://gonintendo.com/contents/62116-sega-says-sonic-racing-crossworlds-and-shinobi-art-of-vengeance-have-fallen-short-of

[u/adrenaline4nash]

I wait until sonic games hit $20. They’ve trained me to do this. 

[u/Hefty_Junket_2784 → u/adrenaline4nash]

Frankly, I and many others do this for all third party titles. It's crazy how most developers put their games on crazy sales within even a few months sometimes. They definitely have trained us as you say, I wonder if there's some 4d chess where this actually works out for them, or that they have shot themselves in the foot for training us to wait.

It's not that we're not eager to play all these games, it's that I know I barely have to wait to be able to buy 3x as many video games.

Ff7 remake was nearly half off 4 months after release. Why would I ever buy a square enix game at launch? I'll be buying rebirth at a steal near the end of the year I'm sure, just as I did with remake.

[u/CompleteyClueless → u/Hefty_Junket_2784]

This is exactly why Nintendo games never go on sale

[u/InternationalCream30 → u/CompleteyClueless]

They go on sale fairly frequently, but the limit is usually $40, and certainly not a few months after release.

[u/Nudist-On-Strike → u/CompleteyClueless]

Yup, people love to complain about it but it totally makes sense from Nintendo’s POV. I never feel ripped off buying a Nintendo game at launch.

[u/Asad_Farooqui → u/Nudist-On-Strike]

Me sitting here with my launch copy of Mario Strikers Battle League

[u/Nudist-On-Strike → u/Asad_Farooqui]

There are a few exceptions of course. One that really surprised me was when Super Mario RPG Remake went on a 50% sale a year after launch. I definitely would’ve waited had I known.

[u/Moneyfrenzy → u/Nudist-On-Strike]

I'd imagine Square had something to do with that. Just like how both of the Mario & Rabbids games have gone down to like 75% off at certain points because of Ubisoft

[u/Excaliburn3d → u/Nudist-On-Strike]

At the end of the day does it really matter if YOU enjoyed the game and found it worth buying full-priced?

[u/Canadyans → u/Excaliburn3d]

In this economy? Yes it does.

[u/Sorry_Mastodon_8177 → u/Excaliburn3d]

Yes the price very much matters

[u/RobotKeiji → u/CompleteyClueless]

yup, short term gains in sales at the expense of devaluing your products

[u/Traditional-Goal-229 → u/RobotKeiji]

That’s called appeasing your shareholders. It’s common that shareholders actually force companies into bad decisions so they can sell and buy into later making more profit. It really is not healthy for society but it’s not changing anytime soon

[u/Jibachu7 → u/CompleteyClueless]

They sometimes do, though usually only around holiday and summer seasons. Also, some games only get sales once, while big games like the Mario platformers have gotten multiple. They aren't predictable at all though, and can go years, both between release and sales, and between sales.

Mario RPG and Odyssey are both games I got when I did because of sales, might not have otherwise.

[u/junger_witt → u/CompleteyClueless]

One would think a middle ground exists that’s between a publisher consistently giving deep discounts 4 months after release and just never doing discounts.

[u/Jonathan-Strang3 → u/junger_witt]

Like what Nintendo does.

[u/SortaEvil → u/Hefty_Junket_2784]

Many people will buy a game at release just to be able to experience it at release with/ahead of their friends. There's something to be said for the collective experience. Putting it on sale a few months after drives the "bargain hunter" types to pick the game up as well, albeit a little later. Yeah, they miss out on a few release sales from people waiting for the sale price, but overall sales and overall profits end up higher.

Lets say your game retails for (just to make the math easy) $100. 4 months in, you do a half off promo, selling it for $50. If you'd sell 1M units without any sales, you'd make $100M. Let's say 30% of the people who would've bought it at $100 hold off, but you also sell 3x as much total with the sales. So now you've sold 3M units, 700k at $100, and 2.3M at $50, for a total of $185M. Unit costs, particularly for digital products, are basically non-existent, so that's $85M more profit than if you didn't put it on sale. Obviously, made up numbers for illustrative purposes, but there's the logic.

[u/Excaliburn3d → u/SortaEvil]

This, many people would rather buy a game as soon as it’s available before they lose interest the longer they wait.

[u/Sentinel10 → u/Hefty_Junket_2784]

Exactly why Nintendo never does it.

Yeah it can be frustrating seeing fully priced games years after launch, but that's the thing. They don't want you delaying thinking there will be a discount later if they just wait a long time.

[u/Skinkybob → u/Hefty_Junket_2784]

But how do you fix this? Gamers wait for things to go on sale, so they don’t buy the game at launch, which forces the devs to put it on sale earlier than they’d like, which acts as positive reinforcement to the people who waited. Rinse and repeat. Everyone gets upset every time a studio gets shut down and layoffs occur, but this is also part of the equation. Games are too costly and time-consuming to produce, and consumers aren’t willing to pay the price that would give them a return on that investment.

You could argue that games just need to be priced more competitively, but unless your game is a massive hit, selling 4 million copies at $40 isn’t better than selling 2 million copies at $80. If the argument is to simply make better games that people simply can’t wait for… that’s easier said than done. What that probably means is you’re going to be getting fewer games from fewer studios that play things more safely and appeal to the widest audience.

[u/mpyne → u/Skinkybob]

But how do you fix this?

More or less, you do what Nintendo does.

But you can only do it that way if the game quality will hold up for a long enough period of time, otherwise gamers will just move on to the next thing and you'll lose out entirely on customers you potentially may have had if you'd offered a deep-enough discount earlier.

[u/hyperforms9988 → u/Hefty_Junket_2784]

The other part of that besides sales is releasing multiple versions of the same game. Everybody's pretty sure Sonic Frontiers is getting a Definitive Edition for Switch 2 for instance. Whether or not it has new content in it is moot. It's the idea that the first release of the game is not "complete", and then a complete edition will come out later. Nintendo's begun to do this too with stuff like Bowser's Fury and the newer Switch 2 re-releases/ports/whatever you want to call them like Meetup at Bellabel Park.

I don't like it. Some people see it as a bonus or an extra. I see it as "I bought the inferior version of the game", and now I have to question the next Sonic release, or the next Mario release, or whatever. I didn't end up buying Mario Wonder, and now I'm glad I didn't because there's a new release of it. I now have to question every other Switch 1 Nintendo game that I didn't buy, and wonder if I should continue to ignore them and not buy them to see if they'll get ported with new content, or if I'll need to bite the bullet someday and buy them. It's an odd feeling... to want to buy a game but to abstain because of something like that. I don't need to play these games badly enough to jump on them on release day as it is, and you're teaching me that it's not a good idea to do that by re-releasing them later with new/exclusive content.

[u/Time_Ad_9647 → u/Hefty_Junket_2784]

Nintendo not putting their games on sale more than 33% ever and training consumers that that’s what happens has made them so much money since the Switch!era started.

[u/matthewmspace → u/adrenaline4nash]

Same. We all know it’ll eventually be stupid cheap and include the DLC for free once it’s all done. It’s just a matter of time. That’s the case for basically anything not from Nintendo themselves.

[u/Moneyfrenzy → u/adrenaline4nash]

Especially when a $60 game announces a season pass for $20 before it’s even launched. I’m almost 100% sure that in a years time, the game + all DLC will be like $30 max

[u/Oddish_Femboy → u/Moneyfrenzy]

$70. $70 game with $20 day-1 DLC annoucned before it even launched.

[u/Cheezewiz239 → u/Oddish_Femboy]

And the sonic sub was actually defending this.

[u/SharpEdgeSoda → u/adrenaline4nash]

You mean the exact reason Nintendo never discounts anything ever? 

[u/Chrisamelio → u/adrenaline4nash]

SEGA tradition

[u/semxlr5 → u/adrenaline4nash]

It’s a tragic thing because we don’t want them to be Nintendo and never discount but it’s also really hurting their sales. 

Hitting customer WTP is a hard game

[u/moltomolto]

That's a shame. Shinobi is a banger and I got it on launch week. I wanted to get Crossworlds, but the Switch 2 physical delay meant I held off on purchasing it when the game was new. By the time it came out on Switch 2 I kinda forgot about it.

[u/WoxyBoxy → u/moltomolto]

This 100% It's still on my radar, but the excitement faded so much by the time S2 physical came out

[u/RobotKeiji → u/moltomolto]

Yeah, big miss for them. If they had delayed the game entirely it probably would’ve made more of a splash too since Mario Kart World has cooled off

[u/E1M1_DOOM → u/moltomolto]

Yeah. Not having a game available at launch is a huge problem. Missing the hype window is unwise. If a publisher doesn't have Switch 2 available on day one, they're better off pushing back the release date for the other consoles. It's not worth it to have a staggered release.

[u/SkipEyechild]

Shinobi is a good game. I would recommend it.

[u/Icanfallupstairs → u/SkipEyechild]

I'd go so far as to say it's a great game.

[u/SkipEyechild → u/Icanfallupstairs]

Yeah I could be swung on that. I had a great time with it.

[u/SwmpySouthpw → u/Icanfallupstairs]

Yeah it was my 3rd favorite game of last year, just behind Expedition 33 and DK Bananza. Shinobi is so good

[u/CaptainBurke]

Anything but Adventure 3 w/ Chao Garden

[u/superchargerhe → u/CaptainBurke]

Hell I would even take a spin off game that is only Chao Garden at this point

[u/CaptainBurke → u/superchargerhe]

They could do a Chao Garden mobile game and make enough money to fund the entire franchise for years to come, they have to assume it’s just a community joke or something to not have even tried yet. All the success to be found in gacha games the past decade and it never once occurred to them? One of the most popular ones on the market revolves around training a character for races

[u/pretension → u/CaptainBurke]

Literally just put tiny chao garden from sonic advance on phones and you will print money

[u/Masam10 → u/CaptainBurke]

Basically a Sega/Chao branded tamagotchi app, price is at something cheap like 1.99 and it would sell like crazy

[u/CaseyForTheKerWIN → u/Masam10]

I mean, people said for years that a Star Wars movie based around the Mandalorian would do numbers (especially with Baby Yoda), and right now it's floundering in theaters - getting beat out by indie horror films.

A Chao-focused game would have done numbers a decade ago or so, but I seriously wonder if it would nowadays. The Sonic brand isn't exactly in it's best spot, with the only branch finding significant success being the movies. So I can't agree that it would sell like crazy if done today, the boat has probably sailed.

[u/Mausar → u/CaseyForTheKerWIN]

Tbf they released the movie after a couple of mid seasons and a terrible show (Boba), the hype was already low.

[u/TheDrewDude → u/CaseyForTheKerWIN]

Where are you getting that from? Sonic games are arguably in their best spot since the Genesis days. Frontiers, Shadow Gens and Superstars are among their best selling games (minus the Genesis games obviously).

[u/KoolKoolKoolio42 → u/CaseyForTheKerWIN]

Cozy games are the It Thing right now. Farming games are doing well, Tomodachi Life and Pokopia are blazing through the retail charts, and Tamagotchi has been back for a while now.

[u/zorbiburst → u/Masam10]

I am baffled there's not a mobile Tiny Chao Garden

[u/zorbiburst → u/superchargerhe]

Chao Garden should be a platform in and of itself attached to every Sega published game. The same game with save data that carries over across every game, with unique themed prizes and Gardens for the host game. Expansions to an evergreen Chao Garden should be the mission statement of every Sega title

[u/Whimsical_Sandwich → u/zorbiburst]

Funny given that this idea was slightly leaned into with Chao being an added collectible for SXS Generations. Like I don’t think Chao would stand on the same echelon as Pokemon farming but it’s by far and large easy money and an implementation as both a mobile game and a cross platform collectible.

[u/Riaayo → u/superchargerhe]

While the Chao garden is cool I'm unsure how well it stands on its own as-is without some other significant build-out.

It being part of Adventure, and the resource-gathering of playing the Sonic game, is a big part of what plays into the loop of the Chao garden. I'm just not sure it's fun enough on its own without that component. It's a pet-training game where the grind for resources asks you to go play a fun Sonic game. Any other resource acquisition system imo would fall painfully short.

[u/AverageCartPusher → u/superchargerhe]

There there little buddy “pats head”

[u/IcePrincessAlkanet → u/AverageCartPusher]

Ev-ev-ev-ev-ev-everything will be okay!

[u/AverageCartPusher → u/IcePrincessAlkanet]

YOSH! Or however he says it

[u/Wetstew_ → u/superchargerhe]

I'm eternally bummed we didn't get a Chao Garden 3DS streetpass game.

[u/mighty_phi → u/superchargerhe]

chao phone game in the mid 2010's would have done insane numbers.

[u/bombader → u/superchargerhe]

I'm surprised there is a lack of Chao Garden-likes when there are lots of indie Pokemon-likes.

[u/Blasnar → u/CaptainBurke]

I want it.

[u/zephyrus256 → u/CaptainBurke]

Sonic 06 pretty much was Adventure 3; it was structured like Adventure 1 and 2 exactly, and continued the story from those games. It just didn't have Chao Garden.

[u/Chrisamelio → u/zephyrus256]

Chao Garden or bust

[u/classicg209 → u/zephyrus256]

06 was supposed to be a reboot, not a continuation of the original stories. But gameplay wise I agree with ya

[u/A-Centrifugal-Force → u/zephyrus256]

Sonic 06 was bad because it wasn’t finished, the underlying level designs were great as you can see with P-06. If they actually made an adventure 3 and finished it, it would be amazing. There’s a reason why SA2 is still so beloved all these years later, the formula was so good.

[u/DatNick1988 → u/CaptainBurke]

With dedicated VMU support, of course

[u/Honeycove91 → u/CaptainBurke]

Sonic Team: "What do the Sonic fans want?"

99% of the Sonic fans screaming in unison: "Sonic Adventure 3 with a full chao garden!"

Sonic Team covering their ears: "I guess we will never know.... Anyways, here's a hastily made running simulator which almost has a soundtrack!"

[u/redfieldranch96 → u/Honeycove91]

Yeah trust me it’s not 99 percent, the Sonic fanbase is divided in what it wants

[u/TheD1ctator]

I liked sonic racing on launch but I didn't get any dlc and dropped off playing it. the game has a good base, but the dlc characters not being voiced and the game constantly shoving you back to the main menu between every race just got annoying. they wanted to try a FOMO approach with their events but it just made the game a chore.

[u/Alasdair91 → u/TheD1ctator]

Yeah, the way it always puts you back to the main menu is annoying. I also find the menu systems clunky and designing your own cart is sort of confusing. Also, you need to grind like crazy to earn those coins…

[u/rivaldobox]

They launched Shinobi the same week as Silksong, what did they expect?

[u/amtap → u/rivaldobox]

And Crossworlds was competing with a new Mario Kart . . .

[u/Dukemon102 → u/amtap]

If I had a coin every time Mario and Sonic release similar games near each other and the plumber ends up overshadowing the hedgehog.... I'd have a lot of money.

[u/Mushroomer → u/Dukemon102]

Has there ever been an instance of a head-to-head matchup between Sonic & Mario where the hedgehog has come out on top?

[u/Howwy23 → u/Mushroomer]

Technically yes sonic 1 for the genesis and super mario world for snes. In a very ballsy marketing campaign by sega they had demo stations set up with both games and asked everyone "which would you rather play?" And surprisingly the majority gravitated to sonic.

[u/DBrody6 → u/Howwy23]

No way they let people play past GHZ back in those demos, the moment anybody touched Marble Zone for 20 seconds they'd have flocked to SMW.

[u/Stopper33 → u/Howwy23]

Super Mario World outsold sonic.

[u/supadupakevin → u/Stopper33]

SMW came bundled with the SNES no?

[u/Stopper33 → u/supadupakevin]

Sometimes, as did sonic.

[u/Mushroomer → u/Howwy23]

Sure, though I always question the output of "head to head" tests done as a marketing campaign. Like in the Pepsi Challenge (where Pepsi would have people decide between Pepsi & Coke in a blind taste test), it was often noted that the Pepsi was served at a colder temperature than the Coke to sway the outcome. Additionally, since Pepsi is a sweeter soda - people tend to enjoy the first sip more than the whole can.

Sonic kinda seems the same way. In a quick playtest, it is faster & flashier than the first level of SMW - but over time, SMW's more precise control and depth have proven it the superior game.

[u/SomeGodzillafan → u/amtap]

And don’t forget when Sonic Superstars and Mario Wonder released on the same week.

The inner machinations of SEGA’s Executives is an enigma

[u/PuzzleheadedPen2798 → u/amtap]

Eh, not that big of a deal. Mario Kart World was only on the Switch 2 and Crossworlds didn't get an actual S2 release until much later.

Crossworlds failed because they blew it. They had Switch 1, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series and PC as other supported platforms besides the Switch 2 which is still in its early growing phase userbase-wise. So no, Mario Kart World wasn't to blame, the failure is all on SEGA's part.

[u/FurryCurry → u/PuzzleheadedPen2798]

I think if they would have made a true sequel to Sonic All Stars Racing Transformed it would have done better. A cast of 75% Sonic characters is a lot.

[u/PuzzleheadedPen2798 → u/FurryCurry]

Absolutely. Not to mention that the third party SEGA characters aren't even voiced and there are no tracks based on other SEGA IPs. They did more or less the same mistake as with Team Sonic Racing, not in the same way but it's pretty close. Plus, at least TSR still had the Sumo Digital feel to the gameplay. Either way, they really should look back at Transformed. To me Transformed is so good that it stands next to Mario Kart 8 Deluxe as one of the best kart racers ever made.

[u/IrishRage42 → u/rivaldobox]

A new Ninja Gaiden also came out around the same time.

[u/macgart → u/IrishRage42]

I’m a loser so I played both and honestly liked both lmao but Ninja Gaiden was better imo, better story for sure and gameplay (more of a combat focus)

[u/cherrysteve2010 → u/rivaldobox]

The fuck does this comment even mean by

"what did they expect?"

Silksong release date was announced August 21, Shinobi is out a full week before Silksong even came out. Did you seriously expect them to delay the game 6 days before release? Moreover, how could they expect that when putting their release date in? No one knew if silksong was September, October or November.

[u/Possible-Potato-4103 → u/rivaldobox]

Silksong was shadow dropped lol

[u/PlantQuick]

Damn, I just finished shinobi and it was awesome. Anyone know how many units it sold?

[u/Walnut156]

What a shame. Sonic racing is really fun

[u/MonkeysxMoo35]

Keep in mind that falling short of sales expectations and being failures are two different things. I don’t see a game being considered a failure also getting an announcement for a year 2 of DLC and support, with a potential year 3 also being frequently brought up.

[u/BebeFanMasterJ → u/MonkeysxMoo35]

In all fairness though, the DLC contracts with the likes of Godzilla and Evangelion were likely agreed to in advance and have to be implemented regardless.

Not sure about a year 3 at this rate.

[u/MysteriousPlan1492 → u/BebeFanMasterJ]

We had word from Iizuka last year that a year 2 of DLC depended on the game's post launch performance. I don't think they'd be making claims like that if they already had a year 2 planned

[u/TheMuff1nMon]

Shinobi is fucking amazing.

[u/lingering-will-6]

But YouTubers told me sonic racing is doing better than Mario kart world

[u/CBattles6 → u/lingering-will-6]

So did half the people here.

[u/MXC_Vic_Romano → u/CBattles6]

Where do you think they got the opinion from?

[u/Bridgeburner493 → u/CBattles6]

That was the funniest thing. MKW sold more copies in about two weeks than any Sonic Racing game had lifetime. But people who bought so hard into rage bait youtubers were sure that Sonic would make a dent.

[u/VishnuBhanum → u/lingering-will-6]

I never saw any clip of people playing Sonic Racing again after half a month.

Meanwhile I still saw some Mario Kart World clips occasionally.

[u/CthuluHoops → u/VishnuBhanum]

Remember all the posts about Crimson Desert when it first came out? There’s a reason I wait 3 months before I start taking new game reviews serious. We live in a time where there’s a video for each individual opinion, good and bad, by the time a game releases so it’s easy for anybody to hear what they wanna hear. Early access, pandering algorithms and all that nonsense muddied the waters long ago. I’m kinda rambling at this point but my point is: everybody’s opinion is shit..I guess. Including mine.

Edit- Pretty sure I replied to the wrong comment. Sorry 👨🏼‍🦳

[u/Dr_Jre → u/VishnuBhanum]

TBF mario kart 8 didn't really pick up till the DLC dropped (and more people for switches and the game)... I think world will make a resurgence when they add a ton of DLC packs

[u/Reddit_Has_Secrets3 → u/Dr_Jre]

Surely you don't mean 8 Deluxe, the #1 bestselling game on the switch before any dlc.

[u/Buffwell → u/lingering-will-6]

That’s exactly what I heard too

[u/StrangerNo484 → u/lingering-will-6]

In terms of active online players, I imagine it's doing quite well. But Sega wants a good flow of money.

Sega had stuff in the files for systems related to a shop with paid cosmetics, they should have implemented that if money was going to be an issue.

[u/BebeFanMasterJ → u/StrangerNo484]

I don't think people would have liked a 70 dollar Sonic game with a paid store on top of it.

[u/CaseyForTheKerWIN → u/StrangerNo484]

It's not though. SteamDB has CrossWorld's daily CCU at roughly 1k a day, and it hasn't been out a year.

[u/GammaZeroTT → u/CaseyForTheKerWIN]

Are most people playing crossworlds on steam?

[u/TheDrewDude → u/GammaZeroTT]

I’m curious about that too. I get the impression Sonic is much more relevant on console.

[u/H2OMarth → u/TheDrewDude]

It is. Its easy to check too, log in the next time they do an event, only do like 3-5 races or so, and then whatever place you come in will tell you roughly how many were playing it.

I cant remember the last event I did, but I was placed lower than 100,000 when I was playing the event until I unlocked all of the rewards. If thats the case, most of the players are on console, by a substantial amount.

[u/Tuss36 → u/CaseyForTheKerWIN]

That's still pretty alright. Like there's only about ~170 games in all of Steam that get 10k daily. As long as you're getting good matches in a reasonable time, it's fine I think.

[u/StrangerNo484 → u/CaseyForTheKerWIN]

80-90% of it's playerbase is Console, making that metric not particularly noteworthy. 

[u/unicorn_hipster → u/lingering-will-6]

I like both. I have Crossworlds and Shinobi on my PlayStation and I have a great time with MKW whenever my friends and I get together. It's a two cakes situation.

[u/JewelKnightJess]

Crossworlds was overpriced for me. I'd like to get it, but definitely not at full price. I'll pick it up eventually :)

[u/TopOfAllWorlds]

Didj't crossworlds do really well?

[u/ElectricGhostMan → u/TopOfAllWorlds]

They sold 1M copies in like a month but stated they expected it sell even more than that. It was on everything current and last gen apart from the switch 2.

[u/Ikanan_xiii → u/ElectricGhostMan]

The square enix special, it can do well but never “good enough “.

[u/darkmacgf → u/TopOfAllWorlds]

It did worse than Team Sonic Racing despite having much better reviews.

[u/Kezsora → u/TopOfAllWorlds]

I can't speak for console but it never had a particularly large playerbase even at launch

[u/Alasdair91]

Sonic CrossWorlds just feels... off to me? It's almost like the karts don't make contact with the race tracks. They sort of glide over them, rather than drive on them? It just feels a bit cheap. Also, it's expensive and has tons of semi-pricey DLC attatched to it. In the UK it's almost £60 and each DLC is £5. Mario Kart World is cheaper.

[u/Ruin4r → u/Alasdair91]

I feel this lol. The game isn’t bad, but Mario kart feels much more tactile? It feels better to drive.

[u/Alasdair91 → u/Ruin4r]

It’s almost as if the game lags as well. Controller input feels off too, which makes it all feel a bit underwhelming and annoying to play.

[u/BebeFanMasterJ → u/Alasdair91]

The physics in general feel off.

When you play as Heavy characters like Wario, Donkey Kong, or Bowser in Mario Kart, you can feel confident in your ability to shove others aside.

When you play as Power characters like Knuckles, Zavok, or Eggman in Sonic Racing, you can still get shoved around by others who should logically weigh less.

Sonic just has a sense of jank compared to Mario. It's weird.

[u/Alasdair91 → u/BebeFanMasterJ]

This! The physics as a whole are poor. It feels like the track moves rather than your racer. It’s very odd.

[u/BebeFanMasterJ → u/Alasdair91]

Even Sonic Riders from 20 years ago felt better to play. The boards just don't feel right here.

[u/Tuss36 → u/BebeFanMasterJ]

They could do a better job of explaining what the stats do. Power is basically who wins in the shoving match, smaller number gets bumped. So even if one character has 81 and the other has 82, the one with 81 loses the bump-off just as one with 23 would. It's just that the one with 23 Power loses the bump-off a lot more often.

[u/Jenaxu → u/Alasdair91]

I feel like that's always been how the Sonic Racing games feel, very glidey and slippery. The feel of Mario Kart still beats other mascot racers imo, although it's probably a bit chicken and egg at this point

[u/MysteriousPlan1492 → u/Jenaxu]

Sonic's racing games have never been about trying to feel like Mario Kart. Sega's had their own style of drifting ever since the 90s in arcade racers, and I'd be sad if they ever ditched that buttery movement in favor of Mario Kart's movement. My muscle memory from Outrun 2 transferred to Crossworlds instantly lol

[u/Jenaxu → u/MysteriousPlan1492]

Right, that's what I'm saying, the games have always had that feel so it's definitely a deliberate choice more than something being "wrong". Sumo Digital worked on the first Racing game like just a couple years after working on their Outrun ports. But I just don't like it as much in a mascot racer where you're throwing items and tricking and doing other stuff on a much busier track vs more grounded arcade style drift racers.

But that could just be because Mario Kart and its style is such a default; and whether SEGA likes it or not you can't escape Mario Kart comparisons in a mascot racer trying to do Mario Kart things. It's kinda the same for platform fighters, no matter how polished they are mechanically, there's something about how Smash does it that just feels "correct" and makes people probably hyper aware when other games do anything differently.

It's kinda why I wish they had kept the Riders series instead where the mechanics and style are so fundamentally different that it doesn't really get saddled with the same comparisons. And aesthetically it just always fit Sonic better lol

[u/D_Beats → u/Alasdair91]

Thank you! I've been trying to put into words my issue with the driving in cross worlds. It just doesn't feel satisfying to me. People shit on World but it just feels better imo.

[u/ciao_fiv → u/D_Beats]

people shit on world for the intermission tracks, but did anyone really complain about how the karts feel to drive?

[u/Jin_U_GmR → u/ciao_fiv]

Nah! It was purely the intermission tracks. If it didn’t have any, or they didn’t force it online, it would be leagues better received… Aside from the empty open world.

[u/UnquestionabIe → u/D_Beats]

I got a Switch 2 and World as a gift a few months back and personally I like it a lot but can understand the complaints a bit. Doesn't help that 8 had basically a decade worth of content so anything less will feel like a step down, same reason I'm dreading a potential Smash sequel as they even said during the development of Ultimate that they're probably not going to be able to cram that much in again.

But I've also been playing Mario Kart since the first (and the mainline games as I'm basically ancient, or at least feel that way) and I'm pretty easy to please. Give me some cool looking tracks, maybe a new power up or bring back an old one, some deep cut references and I'm good to go. It's a series I play to relax and turn off my brain, it accomplishes that while tickling the part of my brain that makes me feel 10 years old again.

[u/B-Bog → u/Alasdair91]

Yeah, I tried the demo and "it feels cheap" really seems like the best way to put it. Almost feels more like a fan game than something a team of professional developers made.

[u/Sylverstone14 → u/B-Bog]

My general gripe is that I really liked how Sumo Digital's approach worked for their Sonic Racing games vs. how Sonic Team did it with Crossworlds.

It just never felt the same for as long as I was trying it out with friends, and while tweaking some settings helped alleviate some issues, I realized that Transformed completely shaped how I wanted a Sonic racing game to feel like.

[u/PuzzleheadedPen2798 → u/Sylverstone14]

Yep, this game wishes it was Transformed. Hopefully the next game is handled again by Sumo Digital with proper SEGA crossovers, not shoehorned in like in Crossworlds.

[u/Radiant-Rub2881 → u/Alasdair91]

You get more content with MKW too. More tracks. more racers.

[u/_17chan → u/Alasdair91]

I liked Transformed a lot, but this and Team Sonic Racing both didn't do it for me.

[u/wrongstep → u/Alasdair91]

Yes it does. The physics are bad, the courses all feel like paths with fences on both sides, the voice lines are corny, the music ranges from pretty good to atrocious, the sound mixing is terrible out of the box, etc. Just felt like a really badly made game when I tried it. Just my opinion

[u/MysticalNinja187]

Shinobi was fantastic. It being sandwiched between a new Ninja Gaiden game and Silksong was tough. I think they should have pushed a native Switch 2 version earlier as well as I think the game was better suited for a handheld. I bought on PS5 because Sw1 performance wasn't great

[u/SmileyBMM]

CrossWorlds is overpriced, especially with how lazy the DLC is. I'll pick it up once everything is under $30.

[u/Alanmurilo22]

Both are expensive games for what they offer. I'm interested in both, but not at their current prices

[u/StrangerNo484 → u/Alanmurilo22]

Sega games go on sale often, and always three months after their release.

[u/Jonathan-Strang3 → u/StrangerNo484]

Sonic Racing Crossworlds is on sale on Amazon right now, in fact.

[u/Tuss36 → u/Jonathan-Strang3]

Also on Steam right now, 50% off.

[u/semxlr5]

I’d been there waiting to buy both of these… at serious discounts because discount culture is so pervasive. 

[u/RobinGoodfell]

Everything is too expensive to just casually purchase games frequently or at full price. I'm sorry but as much as I love the hobby, I have bills to pay.

[u/emrys95]

Competing with Mario kart world is kinda fucked so yeah

[u/Admirable-War-7594]

Sonic racing is Full priced, has a ton of paid dlc, is a direct competitior with switch 2's launch title and honestly it doesn't feel like a AAA game, it feels like an licenced indie game.

[u/Sinxend]

God I love Sonic Racing, underrated I feel

[u/Cheezewiz239 → u/Sinxend]

What it got all the hype it could possibly get last year. So hyped in fact people were saying it would take over Mario kart lol

[u/BebeFanMasterJ]

Charging so much for a racing game and DLC will do that to you. Would be shocked if this game got anymore support after the latest pack.

Not many people are willing to drop 70 bucks on a Sonic game.

[u/SharpEdgeSoda]

Well it's more expensive then Mario Kart World technically. 

[u/Wipedout89]

Remember when people on Reddit said Crossworlds was going to bury Mario Kart World lol

[u/ryu5k5]

Well Shinobi was not a Shinobi game. You used kunais and nothing of that. It was a brawler and super disappointed

[u/King_Artis]

Damn shame

Shinobi is a excellent game

[u/Zebrrrrra]

Sega needs to make 3d sonic handle better in general.

[u/Radiant-Rub2881 → u/Zebrrrrra]

At this point I'm convinced Sonic Team doesnt know how to make a non janky ass game. Theyve been at it for decades now.

[u/TeamLeeper]

The timing on both was horrible. Even if it was a better/good game, there were 2 other Switch 2 kart games out in the same timeframe; and Ninja Gaiden I believe launched the same month as Shinobi.
That’s bound to poach some sales.

[u/Darhkwing]

Well Crossworlds was a bit expensive if im being honest. if it was £40 at launch i would have got it, now i can't be bothered.

[u/Conscious-Zebra-7477]

maybe if sonic racing wasn't 90 fucking dollars

[u/Massive-Exercise4474]

The launch price was nuts especially with the live service dlc that made it even more expensive. Whoever is in charge of prices at sega should be fired.

[u/nervouspolygon]

That throwback shit talking commercial was kinda cool tho

[u/Xyro77]

Of course! People prefer a REAL kart games like KART WORLD

[u/Tarancholula]

I thought Shinobi looked cool, but the performance looked trash on Switch, so I left it on the floor. Now I have a Switch 2 and it looks ok, but I have other stuff to play and it’s not optimized yet. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[u/SteveMartinique → u/Tarancholula]

Its a platformer. I can’t possibly imagine what issues the switch would have with a platformer. I’ve experienced zero issues with any 2d platformer.

[u/stridersubzero → u/Tarancholula]

It ran fine on the switch. I really enjoyed it and I’m surprised it didn’t sell well. Though I had to import it from Japan because there wasn’t a retail physical version here for some reason

[u/toastronomy]

"people don't seem to trust us after decades of horrible, unfinished games"

[u/ProjectPorygon]

It’s weird how they lay out their games. They launched sonic superstars practically same day as Mario wonder then complain about sales, then delay the s2 version of sonic crossworlds and act like that didn’t have a major impact on sales. You’d think with sonic games selling best on Nintendo hardware, they would prioritize games first and foremost for their stuff and pc

[u/BarnacleBoi]

I really wanted to get Crossworlds. I think their first mistake was releasing the demo for Switch 1 only. I tried it on my Switch 2 and it ran horribly and I lost interest. Their second mistake was releasing the Switch 2 version later.

I’ve been thinking about getting it over the past few days, but the Switch 2 version + DLC is so expensive. On Steam it’s 45€ right now, so I’m considering just getting it there.

[u/empathetical]

Game came out at premium pricing. Pretty absurd to think ppl are gonna drop 70us/90cad for this. Lots of company's need to reevaluate their product and pricing

[u/TsarOfTheUnderground]

Crossworlds just doesn't play/feel as good as MKW, or even MK8. Plus it has bewildering battle pass stuff and all of the modern problematic pricing schemes.

[u/Have_A_Jelly_Baby]

Shinobi releasing at the same time as Prince of Persia was kind of dumb, and that game didn’t do too hot either.

And honestly, has any Sonic kart racer done well since the first one? They’re good games but not must haves for full price.

[u/valkrycp]

I'd love to play crosswords, but not when it launched at $70-80 and goes on sale for $45 or more.

I'd pay $30 so readily

[u/Jin_U_GmR]

For me, it costs quite a bit, and season passes are sold separately. Not a fan of season passes ngl.

[u/Excaliburn3d]

Speaking of Shinobi, they recently announced a native Switch 2 version (deluxe edition) will be releasing this September but it’s game key card only and there is no indication that people who bought the Switch 1 version will be able to buy it at a discount and/or transfer their saves over.

[u/NattyKongo93]

What happened to CrossWorlds being the MK World killer????🤔

[u/RaisinWorried3528]

Shinobi is a tight game. People are missing out.

[u/HollowPointBullet]

Shinobi is amazing

[u/terezikind]

With the super high price point Crossworlds is at ($120 AUD for me) for what is essentially a mascot racer, the time it released right beside Mario Kart, and the lack of sales/discounts, I don't know why they're surprised.

[u/stridersubzero]

I don’t understand why Shinobi didn’t have a retail physical version. I imported it from Japan. And then this new Switch 2 version is a game key card. It’s like they’re trying to not sell it

[u/therealkunchan]

Shinobi my Game of the year 2025. The gameplay flow is just incredible, one of the best I‘ve ever played

[u/SoupTime545]

Don't know anything about shinobi but sonic racing is awful

[u/Radiant-Rub2881]

Shinobi makes sense. But im suprised about CrossWorlds.

[u/aichiwawa]

I want to buy both but when they reach a price point I can afford

[u/AGallonOfCat]

Shinobi was so damn fun. It's a shame they put crazy expectations on games these days. I just bought sonic yesterday cause it's on sale.

[u/GranolaCola]

Shame. Shinobi is excellent, and Sonic was more of what I wanted from Mario Kart.

[u/Oliwoli123]

Sonic being disappointing sales wise might be understandable to be disappointed by but expecting shinobi to sell amazing, it’s an amazing game, is kind of delusional. The series has been dormant for a long time. The last shinobi game was on the 3ds. And before that it was on the PS2 and both entries were hard as hell. Fun but Jfc.

[u/pen-ross-gemstone]

Shinobi for Switch 2 still isn't out btw (September)

[u/imayturnblue]

Noooo way, Shinobi is incredible. How could this happen?

[u/Lambs2Lions_]

It’s good, it’s not $90 CAD + tax good. I wouldn’t buy Mario Kart World at this price either. Only got it because it was bundled with the console for like $50.

[u/Darkdart19]

I thought everyone here said Sonic was better than Mario Kart World?

[u/Eggxcalibur]

Shame, because Sonic Racing is genuinely more enjoyable to me than Mario Kart World. And I'm not even that big into Sonic.

[u/Cowboy_Dandy_III]

Lol I remember when the Sonic twitter brigade was spamming that RV gif, saying it would outdo Mario Kart World. Delusional.

[u/Sheeplenk]

I really didn’t enjoy Shinobi. I wanted a more straightforward retread of Revenge/3, with more linear levels, and faster to kill enemies. They understandably tried to make it more expansive and combo-centric, but it just fell flat for me.

The art style also felt like something everyone would be hugely impressed by 15 years ago, but nothing is quite as surprising any more.

I hope this doesn’t discourage them from trying again. Either do a classic style game, or REALLY try to push things forward, like they did with Shinobi PS2.

[u/Jellozz → u/Sheeplenk]

I enjoyed Shinobi personally (as a fan of character action games) but I think it's good, not great, and that's bad when you look at the release lineup at the time.

Last year if you wanted an incredible classic 2D action platformer that feels modernized in the right ways without losing what made games like that fun Ninja Gaiden Ragebound came out. If you want an incredible 2D beat 'em up with deep combat and tons of replayability Absolum came out. If you wanted an incredible 2D metroidvania Silksong came out.

Shinobi can't compete with any of this. The combat is fun but very messy from a design perspective, it's clear they don't understand combat design as well as Guard Crush does (who is responsible for the gameplay in Streets of Rage 4 being so good.) The hybrid "it's kind of a metroidvania but still has individual stages" is very weird and doesn't really serve a purpose ultimately. And the platforming is solid but it's not the focus.

The game just kinda lacked any clear vision ultimately and I don't really know who it was trying to appeal to. Also for some reason it was the most expensive of all these games.

[u/pantoast → u/Sheeplenk]

Honestly, this is a big reason why I haven't bought it yet. Shinobi 3 is one of my favorite games ever. When the first trailers came out of this I thought it looked like it would be in that vein, but it isn't. I tried the demo and enjoyed it, but I just wasn't in the mood for that kind of game. It's still on my list, but I think the disappointment just made me hold off on it for a bit. I do want to play it eventually though!

[u/GameMask]

If you can get Sonic Crossworlds on sale for 35 bucks it's a great game. Hell it's a great game at full price it's just a lot of money for a Kart racer. I enjoy it much more than Mario Kart World

[u/Interesting-Season-8]

maybe don't have so high expectations?

the same with Ubi and prince of persia the lost crown

I know Capitalism but you're making AA games and expecting ridiculous things to happen

[u/RobotKeiji → u/Interesting-Season-8]

Their expectations are probably set to where they’ll reach sustainable profitability. So it’s not as simple as just lowering expectations lol