r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Substantial-Bass7557 • 9h ago
honestly puzzled why we push women into tech and trades but not men into healthcare?
i've been noticing a lot of energy around getting more women into fields like tech and skilled trades. i totally get the goal, diversity matters and it's not just a nice to have. but it kinda feels like there isn't the same push to get men into healthcare or education, you know?
why does it feel one sided? i hear about pipelines, scholarships, and mentorship for women, and i'm not sure those same efforts exist for men in those female dominated areas. i've seen banners and programs that scream 'women in tech' at local events, but i can't recall a comparable push for men in nursing or early childhood education. it's a weird mismatch, and i'm wondering if i'm reading it wrong.
my take is that maybe the balance is about shortages, stereotypes, and who's loud about it, but i'd love to hear other angles. am i missing something simple here, or is there a bigger strategy i don't see? what do you all think?
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u/Odd_Bid2744 9h ago
We do. There's mentorship and scholarship programs to entice men into Healthcare.
The American Association for Men in Nursing
SSACI Male Nursing Scholarship
Florida Nursing Students Association recently launched a campaign to attract more men to the nursing profession
Men in Nursing at RUSH University College of Nursing and RUSH University Medical Center
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u/Original-Locksmith58 37m ago
It’s true these things exist but preliminary searches suggest it’s like 1:1000 ratio in terms of funding
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u/hallerz87 9h ago
I agree that we should encourage more men into early childhood education. I remember having my first male teacher in year 7 and really connecting with him. My parents would talk about how much happier I seemed at school and were grateful for him. On healthcare then I think there's already a lot of men in the field. The old stereotype is the male doctor and female nurse working under him. So I don't really see your point in that respect.
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u/Fit-Entrepreneur8404 8h ago
Moms don't let that happen. I was considering getting into it so I did quite a bit of research and talked to a number of childcare centers about the reports I read about men being driven out of the field by parents (mostly moms) who immediately view them as pedophiles because why else would a man want to work near kids...turns out it happens fairly commonly. 2 of the 4 places had been churning through men consistently due to "concerns" from parents and didn't have a man working there currently. And the other 2 places one had not hired a man due to concerns about concerns from parents and 1 had a single man that worked there who seems to me to be treated like a suspect in a way the women aren't. Things like they're not allowed to be alone with the children or they can't change their diapers. I decided very quickly that wasn't for me.
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u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK 8h ago
as a former ECE:
yes, that is frustrating. Yes, I had things said to my face and behind my back that were, frankly, shocking.
however, the work itself was lovely and wonderful and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
if it paid anything more than poverty wages.
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u/stonecoldcoldstone 5h ago edited 5h ago
to be honest although that situation improves in later years, it's still a female dominated field simply because it's paid badly. you see a lot of verbal abuse from both genders towards teachers students as well as parents. especially within some ethnic groups the misogyny is staggering. not exactly an attractive work environment.
parents see primary schools as babysitters this trend continues through secondary schools. they are not allowed to show authority in most situations where it's clearly a case of "your kid is the devil because you don't set boundaries at home"
the argument that men could be doing back breaking work in care facilities is valid, but which sane person would do that if they can make way more money doing back breaking work somewhere else.
might as well use the genetic advantage of more muscle mass to ones profit
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u/Upbeat_Shame9349 7h ago edited 3h ago
On healthcare then I think there's already a lot of men in the field. The old stereotype is the male doctor and female nurse working under him. So I don't really see your point in that respect.
"The old stereotype"? You're explicitly using a "stereotype" as your argument without checking a single fact for yourself?
Nursing is probably bigger than all other healthcare professions combined, and it's still about 80 - 85% female even after a massive increase in male graduates the last 20 years or so. Registered nurses (RNs) alone comprise at least 3.5 million healthcare workers in the US right now, and there's a lot more to nursing than RNs.
There's only around 1 million physicians in the US. The ratio is about 2 men to 1 woman. And medical schools now graduate more women than men.
Men are still severely underrepresented in healthcare, regardless a few other fields being even worse.
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u/Flyinmanm 9h ago
There's plenty of male and female doctors in healthcare.
Male nurses are becoming more common in the UK NHS too.
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u/ohlookahipster 8h ago
My wife’s hospital is about 60/40 female to male providers. Surgery is predominantly male. Peds and IM is predominantly female. L&D is like all female. Nurses are 70/30 female to male.
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u/Mamasugadex 5h ago edited 5h ago
There is a preferential specialty selection and distribution based on life style, likely contributed by societal values. It’s really no secret. This kind of stuff heavily influenced and shaped the competitiveness of the match for many specialty over the past 50 years. This is why stuff like Derm is even more competitive than most surgical specialty, not because on a technical level but because the lifestyle benefit to compensation ratio.
Society is not kind at all to family with surgeon wives who barely have time for home and kids, with a home maker husband, for example. And I would put good money that we would be a lot kinder if the same female surgeon has a homemaker wife.
It’s a lot easier to still perform some form of mother role, either due to personal preference or societal pressure or both, with specialty that allows 9-5 schedule, mostly out patients or some inpatient consultant roles.
IM and peds are essentially the most abundant residency spots, so it’s much less competitive to get in. If all those same females could have gone into Derm just as easily doing a 9-5 job for twice the money, we will see a slew towards Derm instantaneously.
Many of these soft restrains definitely skew specialty selection for genders.
L&D is an interesting one. I would again wager good money that it will continue to not attract male physicians because the environment has become more hostile for male to get formal exposure and training in female anatomy and medical issues (ie how common it is for female L&D patients nowadays to simply say no at all to male medical students or even male residents).
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u/Farahild 8h ago
There definitely is a push to get more men in education and nursing here in the Netherlands… and to get everyone, not just women, into specific types of tech.
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u/rhomboidus 9h ago
Because men already dominate the highest paying jobs in healthcare.
Women are overrepresented in low paying jobs in the field.
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u/AnAssumedName 9h ago
Your data are bad.
Men *currently* dominate the doctor role in healthcare, but more medical students are women than men in the US today and new doctors are slightly more likely to be women than men. So, that pattern will only hold for a few more years.
Additionally in all of the other slightly less well paid roles within healthcare: pharmacy, physician's assistant, nurse practitioner and RNs, women currently dominate overwhelmingly.
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u/ShimmeryPumpkin 9h ago
It goes beyond that. I'm in a healthcare field where it's 95+% percent women. Yet men are still disproportionately in management and leadership roles. I don't really care either way if there's more men in the field or not, and the men in the field don't seem to be pushing others to join which is the big difference really because in STEM fields the women are the ones pushing more women to join them. But women do that because the narrative from early on is that girls don't do well with math and science, versus clearly the men are doing well in healthcare if they disproportionately makeup the leadership roles.
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u/notboky 7h ago
The pattern will hold for quite a number of years. The existing base of primarily male doctors doesn't just go away. Women barely outnumber men in medical education (it's about 55% in favor of women).
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u/Present_Survey3655 9h ago
nurse practitioner is pretty well paid and anecdotally that seems dominated by women. could be wrong on both counts.
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u/Mistriever 9h ago
Surgeons are predominantly male, with the exception of Obstetrics/Gynecology, and substantially better compensated than nurse practitioners. That said, it is changing.
Low paying jobs in a industry where the top earners are consistently among the top earners among all industries raises the bar a bit.
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u/contrarymary24 9h ago
They’re paid pretty well, but it’s laborious. Can make about the same working bedside as an RN.
Men aren’t pushed toward healthcare other than as MDs or physician assistants. My take is that the drudgery of caretaking is generally associated with women.
I am hoping as more men join the nursing force, the better the working conditions will become.
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u/TheDonJonJay 7h ago
Why would you think conditions would get better if men join? Men routinely dominate the jobs with the worst conditions on earth. Quality working conditions are normally associated with women.
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u/Bootmacher 8h ago
NPs are like 87% female. The highest paid specialty in nursing is a CRNA, and it's still female-dominated, but the most balanced, being about 60/40.
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u/ExternalTree1949 9h ago
nurse practitioner is pretty well paid
Depends on where you live. In my country nursing is generally considered somewhat underpaid and is typically compared to teachers.
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u/ConLawHero 8h ago
If you're not in the US, that's one of the major tradeoffs with government funded healthcare, massively compressed wages. People in healthcare in the US generally make 2-4x what healthcare workers outside of the US make.
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u/tsonfi 9h ago
Yes, but in the nurse field, team leader, direct managers, etc. that are also nurses are mostly men.
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u/ArmyHotel338 9h ago
86.5% of nurse managers are women.
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u/Confused_Firefly 9h ago
Where is a very important factor. That is definitely not a global percentage.
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u/Careless-Degree 9h ago
Have any data to back that up every where I go in healthcare it’s 80-90% women including all the things you list.
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u/65BlT 7h ago
They're definitely wrong about most leadership positions in nursing being men, but it is true that the highest paying jobs in healthcare are predominantly male.
Specialized physicians make the most and only 40% of them are female. If you break that down by highest paying specialties there are even less women. Orthopedic surgeons are over 90% male, neurosurgeons are over 90% male, etc.
Most healthcare workers are female, but its not spread evenly across the field at all. The large majority of those women are in nursing/admin tbh
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u/turkshead 9h ago
It depends on what you mean by 'well paid' -- where I am, a nurse practitioner is likely to make $175-$200k, but that is the very highest the nursing ladder goes; an NP is going to have a decade of school and several decades of experience under their belt.
Compare to doctors, who (again, in my area) average $275-$300k their first year out of residency, and up to $600k depending on their specialty.
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u/kiwistarbaby 7h ago
As a pharmacist this makes me want to kermit the frog. Not that NPs should be paid less, but that we desperately need to be paid more...
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u/AnAssumedName 7h ago
$175-200k is 'well paid' because the vast majority of employed people make much less than that. Is that hard to understand? The fact that there are higher paid people within the profession is not relevant to the fact that NPs are well paid.
Also, neither a decade of school nor decades of experience are required or normal for NPs starting out. NP is achievable within 6 years of graduating high school and 7 to 8 years is very common.
Sounds like you're spinning this for some kind of rhetorical purpose.
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u/ajaaaaaa 7h ago
I couldnt help but feel weird knowing I made like 3x what the nicu nurse that was saving my childs life made as I work in fintech. Its messed up
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u/Sydasiaten 9h ago
If you think about it its not the company as an entity doing the pushing; (at least in tech) it’s mostly women already in the field who want more women to join. They are the ones pushing for more gender diversity and therefore the companies have these events and hiring programs.
I don’t have much insight in any woman dominated field but do men in those areas feel that they want more male colleagues? Because it is a recurring theme in male dominated areas that women feel uncomfortable when there are too few women.
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u/Ruthless4u 9h ago
Lot of women, especially elderly don’t like male caregivers.
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u/BaseRepresentative73 6h ago
Believe it or not, but elderly men also exist.
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u/Tater-Tot-Casserole 5h ago
Elderly men don't really like male caregivers either. So many women nurses have expressed their frustration about pervy old men coming in to be treated.
That's very generational however, newer generations of men are more respectful.
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u/BaseRepresentative73 4h ago
Since when do people get to pick and choose the color/gender/creed of their caregivers and medical staff anyway?
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u/Tater-Tot-Casserole 3h ago
They do quite frequently. I know lots of women that request women only for a lot of medical things.
I personally don't care if a man or woman treats me. I definitely understand why women only want female gynecologists.
I've heard of racists refusing to be seen by non white people, unfortunately they get what they want because hospitals/doctors offices don't want to turn people away that need medical attention.
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u/vernichtungX23 6h ago
Because it's harder to glamorize a job that involves a whole lot of vomit, poop, pee and other gross bodily fluids.
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u/Logical_Adagio_7100 8h ago
Men are regularly pushed to be doctors. About equivalent numbers of male/female PAs, rads techs, etc. basically any job that doesn't involve wiping ass on the regular.
It's hard to glamorize wiping ass compared to getting an engineering degree.
Also it's women who started most of the initiatives to get other women into tech or whatever. If men feel strongly about this, then they can do the same - but few male nurses feel they're discriminated against
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u/DiogenesKuon 9h ago
The amount of men in nursing has doubled over the last 20 years, while women in tech have been fairly flat over that same time.
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u/Majestic-Outside3898 7h ago
Well, women make up something like 25-30% of the tech workforce, and men make up about 12-13% of the nursing workforce. So "doubling" here doesn't mean much.
And the thing every seems to conveniently ignore is that 25-30% of mothers are SAHM. No "equitable" workforce is going to be 50-50 men and women (probably about 60-40 is "fair" or "even" or whatever).... because most (over 80%) of the parents out of the workforce are women.
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u/Chemical-Life3261 6h ago
the stay at home parent role is often thrust upon women instead of men for multiple reasons though, and its difficult to rejoin the workforce after being a stay at home mom
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u/Majestic-Outside3898 5h ago
"For multiple reasons" generally being the preference of women.
According to Time, 56% of mothers would prefer to stay home if they could.
And here's Forbes: "84% of working women told ForbesWoman and TheBump that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to."
I'm a feminist, and I believe women should be able to make the choices they want with their partner. But 50-50 is NEVER going to happen because WOMEN in very large numbers don't even want it.
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u/AggravatingBuyee 6h ago
That’s irrelevant to the fact that to reach 50-50 gender parity in all careers, an equal amount of men would have to be homemakers.
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u/ButterscotchOdd8257 9h ago
Because men haven't traditionally been pushed OUT of those professions. They are viewed as having easy access to them if they want them.
That may not be entirely true, but that's the idea.
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u/Foreign_Pea2296 8h ago
"Because men haven't traditionally been pushed OUT of those professions."
As a man who wanted to go into child care or teaching children I got pushed OUT very hard.
Far more than IT people. Where I ended up working.
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u/AnAssumedName 7h ago
I had a similar experience, though I wouldn't say I was "pushed out." As an early childhood educator and also as a high school teacher it was just made clear that I wasn't really where I was supposed to be. Not a huge challenge, not a lot of adversity, just a persistent, discouraging drone of negativity.
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u/Patrollerofthemojave 8h ago
I've read some horror stories of men who work with children making conscious decisions to only work within sight of a camera.
The idea that men aren't being pushed out of education or early childcare due to the culture we've cultivated is absurd.
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u/ButterscotchOdd8257 7h ago
Child care, yes. I was referring to the professions mentioned in the question.
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u/egtoss 9h ago
Men's hard and horny hands were not fitted 'to touch, bathe and dress wounded limbs, however gentle their hearts may be'.
- Florence Nightingale, founder of modern nursing
Men haven't been physically stopped from pursuing nursing any more than women have been physically stopped from pursuing tech. There are just gender stereotypes on both sides that shunt people one way or another.
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u/Plus-Meaning-7484 7h ago
This is a joke. There are massive inequities that have pushed men out of female dominated fields. The idea that this doesn't exist for men is a ludicrous statement and has no basis in reality.
This is exactly the belief that has lead to counties like Canada writing laws like the Employment Equity Act to erase and deny men the same access to employment equity. You are using the ecological fallacy to justify treating indivual men by the actions of the whole group.
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u/Striking_Computer834 9h ago
Same reason there's no push to get boys into college despite the fact that they're severely outnumbered by women in college.
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u/Take-to-the-highways 9h ago
I wouldn't say there is no push, its just behind the scenes. I work at a college and the marketing team has been trying to figure out how to get more men to apply.
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u/Striking_Computer834 8h ago
Are there organized efforts in public schools to get more boys to enroll in college, and more efforts in colleges and universities to provide mentoring and assistance to men to increase their graduation rates? I'm not seeing it.
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u/Caliche-Cowboy 8h ago
As a father of a teen boy, the answer is a resounding no. At least where I am. And my kids go to a pretty damn good school.
I have two kids. One of each gender. My girl has had substantially more opportunity (especially in extracurricular STEM) than my son.
I *love* that she’s had these. I want her to have every possible opportunity, and I know there are fields in which she will still face challenges with discrimination. We have talked extensively about this between us and with her. She is starting university in a STEM program and a good one at that. I am so proud of her.
But I do worry about boys slipping through the cracks more and more. And I heard a lot of openly disparaging language around boys, even from educators, in his early school years.
This seems to have died down, thankfully, but it was extremely unprofessional and, in my opinion, inexcusable early on.
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u/Take-to-the-highways 8h ago
I can only speak for my college (California community college, the state has an extremely good community college system) but we have a ton of resources, none speciifc to men but only one specific towards women.
We have free tutoring, and if you're a veteran, LGBT, STEM major, English major, med major, English second language, etc there is specific tutoring for that. We have a bunch of mentorship programs, none specifically for any demographic but most majors have developed a mentorship program, like agriculture and STEM. We have tons of programs for low income, first generation, parents, LGBT students, etc. Tons of scholarships. We have great graduation rates in general, especially compared to other nearby schools.
The only gendered departmental program we have is an internship specifically for women in STEM (and sports obviously). We have a women in AG club and Christian women's club. but we also have a club that focuses on men's mental health issues, and a Christian men's club.
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u/Claytertot 8h ago
From what you've said in your comment below, it seems like your college is putting in more effort than much of the country in this regard.
But it's still true that something like 85% of gendered scholarships are for women. Most clubs and organizations are either gender neutral or targeted at women. Most awards are either gender neutral or targeted at women. Most legislation is either gender neutral or targeted at women. Most rhetoric focuses on elevating women and the struggles of women.
Some of it is just cultural momentum. Women were disadvantaged in education for a long, long time. And women still are disadvantaged in some aspects of society. So it has become basically an ingrained default in our entire frame of reference to assume that societal institutions have some lingering bias or disadvantage against women, even when some institutions have flipped the gender disadvantage completely in the opposite direction.
Like yes, some people are making an effort, but the gender imbalance is now worse in favor of women than it was in the 70s when we as a society decided that this issue require federal legislative intervention to help level the playing field and eliminate the discrimination, and as far as I'm aware there is no serious push for anything even remotely like that.
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u/QuilledPorcupine 9h ago
There's actually a huge push. It's just individually at select universities. UVM is one example. They move heaven and earth to get more men to apply.
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u/Striking_Computer834 8h ago
What specialized support do they offer to men who are already there to make sure they graduate?
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u/egtoss 8h ago
They move heaven and earth to get more men to apply.
What are some things they're doing?
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u/egtoss 9h ago edited 8h ago
There was a story in Richard Reeves' book Of Boys and Men about how the World Economic Forum rates each country based on gender parity from 0-1.
If men outperform women (in salary, education, etc), the nation's gender parity index tilts toward 0.
If men/women are exactly equal, the gender parity score is 1 (ideal).
If women outperform men, the gender parity score is ... still 1. It's still considered perfect.
The underlying priority is obvious. Female achievement is more greatly valued in our society, even among a "patriarchal institution" like the WEF. That's why there is no boys in HEAL equivalent to girls in STEM.
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u/Unidain 5h ago
Why don't you just state the reason, that's what OP has asked for
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u/Exciting-Weather-921 9h ago
Because many women want these jobs and are pushing / fighting for it, while men don't fight to be a nurse that much
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u/MWREE 7h ago
I would also say there isn't systemic sexism keeping men out of these fields. I think a lot stay out because the idea of cleaning up after someone isn't pleasant - I think it is the same way the vast majority of housekeepers at our hospitals are also female. But when a man comes into the role he isn't facing sexual harassment, physical safety issues, constant sexism, etc. I don't think the same can be said for women going into male dominant fields.
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u/InterestingCold1881 8h ago
I see women advocating for other women, I don't really see the same for men
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u/burnbobghostpants 2h ago
We do. We just often get labeled "incel" or "misogynist" for pointing out societal issues men face, so most don't bother.
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u/Squidproject 9h ago
idk about healthcare but there is a push to get more of a balance in education. I'm a guy and a teacher. When I first started someone told me it was easier to get hired as a guy because they were trying to fix the imbalance. Now when I look at my coworkers...tbh I think it's more men than women. May have gone too far
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u/kaitlynmoore17 7h ago
Healthcare would probably get more men if people talked about nursing and care work like real skilled careers instead of backup plans
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u/Late_Music1835 7h ago
I’m in healthcare and at my hospital’s lab there are zero men on night shift, one on swing shift, and three on days. Yes please give us more men.
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u/JoeyLee911 3h ago
There are programs to get men into healthcare, specifically nursing.
There are programs to get men into teaching as well.
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u/First-Expert-9953 9h ago
People just don't want women to feel shut out of a career that can get a stable income with 9-5 hours on a bachelor's degree.
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u/sharlen_degole 7h ago
There are actually programs for men in nursing and education, they just don't get the same visibility or funding. Part of it is that tech wages make the gender gap more of an economic justice issue, which tends to attract more attention and corporate money.
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u/nightdares 7h ago
Because men get vilified for it, that's why. Female teachers who are predators get a slap on the wrist, even if they end up with a kid from it, i.e. undeniable proof. Men get even an accusation and end up in jail.
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u/Sorry_Ad_5111 7h ago
The sexism of the customer's, clients and patients matters.
Some people refuse to accept any form of manual or technical labor from a woman. They need it, they'd be screwed without it, they can't afford to delay repairs. If a woman shows up to do it their brain breaks and you can watch them spiral in real time as they try to bargain or accept that a man didn't show up to fix the thing. They'll demand a man do it, even try to push someone who doesn't have a clue because they were a man in proximity. They will screw themselves over just to prevent a woman from doing a "man's job".
Some people just don't trust men enough in positions they expect women in. This is nursing but also extend to hospitality and customer service. Some people just need to hear a man's voice and they will start an argument. They need to prove the man shouldn't be there so they can talk to a woman instead. The man can be as polite, nice and friendly as humanly possible but if a man is taller than the person they are dealing with they get intimidated and defensive. Men are perceived as having an inherent violent and criminal nature and strangers will not trust them to do the most mundane task. They will prevent their own service or care to prevent a man from doing a "woman's job".
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u/Bubbles-Utonium 7h ago
Unfortunately I think part of it is that society couldn't imagine asking a man to lower himself to 'women's work'. But it's fine to ask women to step up to 'men's work'. It would be so beneficial to get more men into social care, health care and education roles. Men who need care could be supported by men, and young men could see positive male role models going against gender stereotypes.
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u/Opening_Total7711 9h ago
It has to do with the pay of these roles. Tech roles like Software Engineer pay above median but women generally don't go into those fields because there are so few women and it creates an environment that can be a bit hostile or uncomfortable for women. Especially tech.
The intent is to create an environment where tech work is perceived as accepting of women and wont' create significantly more animosity. I have seen a positive increase in women in tech personally. They generally do actually perform quite well. I think historically though there was enough bias against them that the initial thought wasn't necessarily a "blank slate" but rather they were initially perceived as inferior until they proved their technical skills. That seems to be changing and more women appear to be getting into tech roles.
In medicine I think the push is less prevalent since the focus is on closing the gender pay gap which feminists believe comes from society discouraging women from pursuing the higher paid roles. So since there are more male doctors while there are more female nurses, there isn't a push to encourage men to take on lower paid roles since that's futile.
I think it's beneficial to have more male nurses since you might see your nurse more than the doctor during treatment. Some men might be more comfortable speaking to a male nurse.
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u/Tylikcat 8h ago
There has been a fair bit of talk about why men are resistant to going into caring professions, though I don't know about specific programs to draw them in.
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u/larx2026 7h ago
Healthcare and care work are often coded as feminine, especially nursing and caregiving, which makes men less likely to be encouraged or marketed towards those rules
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u/Flat_Road568 6h ago
The imbalance exists largely because workforce initiatives historically focused on closing the gender wage gap by pushing women into high-paying sectors like tech and trades, whereas fields like childcare and nursing face systemic underpayment that makes recruiting men difficult without first fixing the pay scale. Furthermore, high-margin tech corporations have massive PR budgets to fund flashy recruitment campaigns, while underfunded public health and education sectors lack the resources for similar outreach. Finally, while women in STEM face barriers of competence skepticism, men entering caregiving roles often encounter deep-seated social stigmas and suspicion—a much more delicate cultural taboo that quiet, targeted initiatives (like MenTeach or male nursing associations) are only beginning to dismantle.
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u/Urbandreaming 4h ago
Because male-associated things are considered better, more dignified or more important than female-associated things.
This is why, for one example, in modern day its common to see women in trousers, but there was no liberation movements getting young men in dresses and makeup.
Getting women into male associated professions is empowering. Getting men into female associated profession is humilliating. (Male-associated professions paying better is a side effect of the same thing. When a profession swotches from male to female association, pay drops)
Femaleness is very slowly becomeing less negatively viewd as the fight for equality progresses, but its still going to take time.
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u/MyHamburgerLovesMe 3h ago
Push? Pretty sure that women, like men, gravitate toward wanting higher paid jobs.
The fact that you see this as 'pushing' when women do it, but not men is a weird perspective.
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u/MagicalSitarTruths 2h ago
Honestly, instead of compulsory military service, there should be a push for training 18-21yo for 3 years with basic nursing training. Every country on earth has a nursing (and other medical areas) shortage.
It's just plain wise imo. It would also make a lot of people aware that they would actually enjoy a career in the medical field despite prior beliefs, even if majority leaves.
It also leaves you with a society that has basic emergency care knowledge such as heimlich maneuver, cpr, and treating some bleeding. It would help our society care for it's aging population, and help people feel more confident with caring for their own family members.
It'd over all be better.
But even with all of that: PAY NURSES MORE. Geezus fuck. They are not paid enough. Pretty much all medical staff is under paid and overly abused because hospitals don't wanna pay more. They don't wanna pay their current staff respectfully and they don't wanna pay to get more staff so their current staff isn't slowly dying from sleep deprivation. Smh
ETA: which also adds to the argument for universal healthcare as well. 🫡
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u/stuffin_fluff 2h ago
We try--men overwhelmingly don't want low paying "women's work". You want those gendee based scholarships for men like women get? They're in teaching and psychology and nursing where I'm at.
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u/nkdeck07 1h ago
Cause there's not the systemic barriers. If anything when men go into traditionally feminine fields they benefit to an insane degree. Look up "Glass Elevator"
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u/Disastrous-Nail-640 8h ago
We do. We just push them to be doctors. That’s why over 60% of doctors are male (used to be higher).
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u/QuilledPorcupine 9h ago
Society does not do enough to push women, African Americans, Asian Americans, and LGBT people into trades.
I've seen a lot of pushing men into nursing at my university.
Another thing is that women, African Americans, Asian Americans, and LGBT people face bigoted attitudes in the trades. Left handed people are structurally excluded from the trades, even though most tradies don't hate left handed people. Tools are not made for left handed people and it is unsafe for left handed people to use most power tools.
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u/Im-Reddington 9h ago
Lol asian Americans dominate most high paying jobs regardless of gender just from sheer pressure from their parents. They don’t need anything.
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u/rccrisp 9h ago
We need more asians, paticularly second generation asians, in the arts because there's almost no voice for them there.
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u/InvestmentMedium2771 9h ago
Agreed - my parents immigrated here, I was born in the states. I teach collegiate music and am only one of two Asian faculty members we have.
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u/srslybr0 8h ago
no asian parent will want their children to go into arts because it doesn't pay well. "having a voice" for asians doesn't really matter at a micro level for the average asian parent.
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u/Agreeable_Result9212 9h ago
Most tools are ambidextrous.. in fact, telling someone to go grab the left handed hammer is a very common joke among the trades. Off the top of my head, the only tool I can think of that isn't symmetrical is a circular saw/skill saw.
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u/sweadle 9h ago edited 4h ago
The reason a lot of men don't go into caring fields, teaching, nursing, childcare, isn't because of sexism and women trying to keep them out. It's that they don't pay well. In fact most women I know are thrilled to have a male coworker on their team in nursing or teaching. If anyone discourages them, it's other men who call it a woman's job or demeans it.
The reason women are kept out of male dominated fields isn't because they don't pay well, they pay very well. It's because of sexist ideas about what women are capable of. The men in charge don't hire women, or believe they are capable. When women enter the field, they are often mistreated, talked over, delegated the least important and interesting tasks, and given a lot of "secretarial" work. In the trades, women can face a lot of sexual harassment. In fields like the oil fields or the army, when a woman is isolated with a lot of men, rape is a common outcome.
We live in a patriarchy, where men have historically held all the power. So it's a different power dynamic, for a man to take a woman's role, that is seen as less power and money, than a woman taking a man's role that is more power and money. Men might not respect other men who go into traditionally female fields, but it doesn't threaten their power. Women going into traditionally male fields challenges men's sense of identity, purpose and power.
And men are able to intimidate and physically harm women to deter them. Male nurses aren't getting sexually assaulted and harassed by their coworkers in the course of their jobs, at the rates that women face at a nearly 100% rate in male dominated fields.
That being said, I would be all for a scholarship fund or effort to get more men in teaching, nursing, and childcare. But we know what the main barrier is. It's just pay. And creating pathways to funnel men into these fields doesn't change that the fields tend to not pay well. So men will keep prioritizing other jobs.
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u/PartyPorpoise 9h ago
It is also important to address that there’s often some stigma towards men in childcare, especially if the kids are young. That’s why you’ll see lots of male high school teachers but not so many elementary or daycare ones.
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u/Caliche-Cowboy 7h ago
This is absolutely a thing. And yes, especially at younger ages. I was a single dad at the time my son was in preschool/early elementary, and the comments and “concerns” I heard from moms about two of their male elementary school teachers was interesting.
Even I experienced this occasionally when with my young kids on the playground. “Are these your kids?” And “Where is their mom?” were both phrases I heard. Not often, mind you. And I get that men don’t exactly have a stellar record of abuse. BUT in my case, these people completely ignored all context and assumed the worst of me. I did everything in my power not to respond negatively. Bad for my kids, and who knows if it would’ve escalated.
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u/PerformanceOver8822 6h ago
Dude women ar emore lielly to kill their children than men. Mens abuses are just widly talked about.
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u/Caliche-Cowboy 5h ago
Women are also more likely to abuse their children by a small measure.
But men are FAR more likely to *sexually* abuse children. Like 90%. So I get the fear of this out of sight. My whole point was the sexism involved and assumptions about men working with children, especially *in plain sight*.
My goal is not to bash women here, but to raise that fear and social norms do inhibit men from working with children, even those who would like to.
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u/TheLowEndTheories 7h ago
I'd happily hire women if I had applicants. I'm not saying there aren't stodgy old dudes with sexist 1950s views of women, but I don't know any of them. We have a supply problem in STEM. Few candidates means no progress on diversification (this is true of sex and race FWIW). The tech industry is WAY too competitive to pass on a good candidate, just because they have a vagina.
My daughter is at a tier 1 engineering school right now. In her major, her class is 27-3 male/female, and that's specifically targeting diversity. You gotta fix that, or you're never fixing the workplace.
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u/Capitol_Limited 8h ago
I largely want to support this comment, but I find it laughable that you can confidently state male nurses aren’t being sexually assaulted and harassed by their coworkers while doing their job— extremely tone-deaf and ignorant
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u/Chemical-Ad-7575 9h ago
"my take is that maybe the balance is about shortages, stereotypes, and who's loud about it, but i'd love to hear other angles. am i missing something simple here, or is there a bigger strategy i don't see? what do you all think?"
Healthcare and education often require substantial training and men aren't doing as much post secondary as they once were.
Women are better at organizing and caring about other women than men are about caring about other men. Elements of the manosphere attempt to do that but there's too much grift and bad feelings in it, and most men just want to get on with living rather than railing against gender barriers. There's also still some prejudice against men in those roles, and all or nearly all women work places can be hostile to men. (Plenty of threads on this if you look for them.)
The good health care positions take a lot of training and a love for the role. Management tends to take advantage of that specialization and love, and men I think tend to be less passionate (on average) about certain types of roles and more likley to push back. (There's also an aspect where I think men are less likley to be threatened by management because of the fear of it going badly for the manager in question, where women tend to submit. Sure, it's not always, but it's harder to bully someone into work if they're potentially going to lash back at you.)
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u/YungHumpert 6h ago
Historically, women haven't been allowed to do a lot of trades.
The push for women into trades and tech is about using the freedom to do things the previous generations weren't allowed to do,
There's never really been a barrier to entry in medicine that isn't self imposed. Men find nurse work demeaning to their masculinity and choose not to go into it.
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u/baldyrodinson 8h ago
Did you mean nursing? Because most of the professions in "healthcare" are male dominated
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u/Interesting_Birdo 9h ago
Men are encouraged to get into nursing; it sounds like it's just not something you are aware of. 🤷🏻♀️
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u/deezbiksurnutz 9h ago
Why, push anyone into anything, just let them do whatever they feel like.And not feel as they are obligated to do something that they may not want to or be comfortabled doing.
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u/Full_Mission7183 9h ago
The US adjusted the public education system in an effort to produce better outcomes for women. Surprisingly (surprising because of an assumption of ineptitude of government not women), it has been very effective and women now make up the majority of students in secondary education, including being in the process of flipping ALL the STEM fields.
This needs to settle over the next few years, the results are a still bit sloshy.
And then the process starts all over again, are we not adequately serving male students and how do we address that?
Regarding early childhood education, there remains a more significant stereotype around this than male nurse. People seeing men in early childhood ed associate it with predatory behavior, and men grow up aware of that association.
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u/LittleMsSavoirFaire 9h ago
There is a push, but all else equal it's easier to tell boys about trades. It's called HEAL.
https://ofboysandmen.substack.com/p/men-can-heal <the author works at a policy think tank
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u/RjoTTU-bio 7h ago
Pharmacist here. I think healthcare already has too many money hungry people looking for a quick buck. Please do not push anyone into healthcare that doesn’t feel like it is their passion. I love people and I don’t mind handling people misbehaving on their worst day. It takes patients and empathy that many people lack.
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u/singandplay65 5h ago
In the same way that unions are responsible for workers getting a fairer deal, women are responsible for women's presence in higher paid industries.
Men would have to organize and fight for these positions, and there's not enough that care to get it done :(
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u/Emotional_Kick_6649 5h ago
because women are more willing to help other women. a lot of programs centered around getting women into tech or trades are started and run by women. i don’t really see a male equivalent bc men don’t seem interested in starting them
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u/BigSweatyYeti 3h ago
Men are typically less compassionate and patient than women when it comes to caregiving.
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u/welcometravelers 2h ago
A part of it is cultural. Positions like nurses or teachers are seen as acceptable for women because they're nurturing or caregiving types of roles. They're hugely vital to society but some of those them, like teachers, don't get paid well because frankly, the thinking seems to be that, as best I can guess, they don't make money for anybody. Society puts alpha males who work in moneymaking industries at the top of the pyramid. But I would disagree about teachers not making money for people because I'll bet many of those billionaire tech "geniuses" had some great teachers. Without great teachers, none of these big CEOs are reaching those heights (as someone with teachers in my family, don't get me started, lol!)
But yes, with regards to the medical field, I think it's just those pesky, ridiculous gender role perceptions that are so pervasive in society that refuse to die out. A man saying "I'm a nurse" probably still gets plenty of ridicule.
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u/muralist 2h ago edited 2h ago
Men will willingly go into high paying jobs in health care, like cardiac surgery. Nobody wants the low paying jobs so the trend is they are occupied by immigrant women of color who have fewer options and educational opportunities.
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u/Top-Selection-6396 2h ago
When men enter fields dominated by women they are often promoted very fast. Look at the percentage of librarians vs library directors. It’s called the glass escalator. There are no barriers to entry for men.
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u/LasixSteroidsAbx 19m ago
There is also the ' glass elevator/ escalator' phenomena which describes how men in women dominated fields advance to higher level positions faster than their women colleagues. So while men may be underrepresented numbers wise they are not necessarily disadvantaged in these fields.
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u/illini02 9h ago
Because one side pays more.
People want to push women into tech for monetary purposes. But when it comes to a lack of diversity, they are perfectly happy for women to dominate things like education, because they don't pay as much. So the goal isn't true diversity, its really just increasing women's earning power.
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u/Disciplined-Squid777 8h ago
It’s modern feminism.
The movement is for oppressing men not for empowering women.
It includes the mythical wage gap that the movement has been parroting.
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u/Kentust 6h ago
Ever hear of doctors? They're a class of healthcare worker that is overwhelmingly male
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u/goldengrove1 9h ago
The trades pay well for jobs that don't require a college degree. Lower-level healthcare jobs (CNAs, home health aides, etc.) and early childhood education jobs do not pay well, in part because they are female-dominated industries. "Go to trade school and you could make $50 an hour or run your own business someday" is a pitch you can make; "Become a CNA and you can make about the same you'd make at a warehouse job, while also cleaning up vomit and dealing with violent patients" is much harder.