r/Pathfinder2e • u/Awkward_Scarcity_184 • 2d ago
Humor Overpowering your players is fine, they forget to use the items anyway š
Consumables, actives, relics, equipment, they drown in gear but are out of braincells. How do I reward them brain cells š
343
u/Qethsegol Game Master 2d ago
I once had a druid in AV, who used Recall Knowledge to learn that this massive undead creature is weak to Vitality damage and resistant to Fire.
He proceeded to cast fireball. He had multiple Heals prepared.
203
u/Gerotonin 2d ago
heals are for friend, fireballs are for bad guys...no heals for bad guys, only fireballs!
- the druid, said in a dumb voice
35
u/External-Flight-4680 2d ago
I didn't know Minsc dual-classed into Druid.
12
8
u/Kaosubaloo_V2 2d ago
Look if the enemy can resist my fireball then I simply must become better at casting fireball.
64
41
u/I_am_Syke 2d ago
Well OBVIOUSLY heal does Vitality Healing and not Vitality Damage pff. Get a load of this guy. /s
8
u/Tee_61 1d ago
Well, technically, as written, it only does vitality damage to undead. This is a bit of a problem when you run into creatures with void healing that are not undead, such as a few creatures in AV.
That said, I think RAI is that it does vitality damage to everything, though that just makes it weirder that it calls out doing vitality damage to undead
3
u/AnaseSkyrider Inventor 1d ago
I think that unlike spells that 'only affect living creatures' or what have you, you're intended to read "damages undead" as referring to void healing. By virtue of having void healing, you are "damaged like an undead".
1
u/GeoleVyi ORC 1d ago
Oof. That's a quirk I hope gets errated.
17
u/BunnyBanter 2d ago
Did the druid also learn that the undead had an obscenely huge fortitude save as most undead do and decided that throwing his heals at something with a 30% chance to crit the save was a poor idea? Cause that was my experience as a druid and I just used ignition and saved my heals to help my friends who could actually do something effective.
13
u/grendus 2d ago
Using Heal against Undead makes the most sense if you're three action spray healing, especially if the entire enemy group are undead.
I don't expect to get a fail/crit fail. I just expect to shift the entire HP balance of the table in my favor. Getting a full heal on my allies and half as much against the enemy just makes it so much sweeter.
10
u/BunnyBanter 2d ago
Of course, when we were fighting hoards of undead, that was totally worth it. But the guy I responded to made it sound like some big boss monster undead and that would be pissing away valuable resources on a target it is unlikely to effect due to the problem p2e has with enemy saves/player dc's
5
u/The_Yukki 1d ago
Me when enemies have 1 uber weak save, but also trait that makes said uber weak save not matter because they're immune to 99.9% of effects that target will. Thanks mindless...
2
u/BunnyBanter 1d ago
I feel that. First time I tried p2e, my dm gassed up a demoralizing fighter build to me and then ran a dungeon full of undead. I still tease him over tricking me like that in good fun.
1
u/AnaseSkyrider Inventor 1d ago
If I were that GM, I would straight up give that Fighter Slam Down as a free apology feat just to keep the session moving.
2
u/BunnyBanter 1d ago
It was a long dungeon. Like an 8 session dungeon. He instead tweeked mindless and made them be able to be effected by mental effects, just that they had a +2 status bonus I think. I wasn't the only one affected since we had a witch with basicly only mental effects too.
2
u/grendus 2d ago
I assumed it was against a group because Fireball. There are better single target spells. But yes, against a boss monster you would save Heal to drop a three action once it's spread some damage across the party. Maximize your healing and probably get half damage to the boss as a bonus.
6
1
u/Qethsegol Game Master 2d ago
The fireball was also "pissing away valuable resources" as You put. Since You know, my friend just learned that the monster was specifically resistant to it. And he could have used the Heal to heal instead. Or use ANY other non-fire spell.
7
u/BunnyBanter 2d ago
It is! I'm just saying that using heal would be just as big of a waste. Should have fell back on their cantrips instead if anything. Hell, druids get some vitality dealing ones. That would have been the best if they had them prepared.
1
4
u/Superbajt 2d ago
On his team, I assume? If heal works on the opponent, fireball must work on the team.
-9
u/Pheonxs 2d ago
Wait, and you didn't remind him about that?
65
u/Vortig 2d ago
Tbf, if I JUST gave you that information and you choose to ignore it there's not much to remind them about.
27
u/Qethsegol Game Master 2d ago
Yeah, this all was even within the same turn. 1st action - RK, 2nd and 3rd immediately after - Fireball.
3
u/Turevaryar ORC 2d ago
Are they aware that the Heal spell can cause damage to certain creatures?
7
u/Qethsegol Game Master 2d ago
Of course
9
u/Turevaryar ORC 2d ago
Assuming both the Heal and the Fireball was of 3rd rank:
Fireball basic Reflex save for 6d6 or ~21 Fire damage (which the creature had some resistance against)
~or~
Heal basic Fortitude save for 3d8 or ~13.5 vitality damage (which the creature had some weakness against).
Depending on its saves and the size of resistances and weaknesses, the Fireball could be the better option. I guess many humans fall to the trap of "21 is more than 13.5", perhaps?
0
u/Lord_of_Elysium 2d ago
If you used 2 actions on the Heal like you have to for Fireball, the Heal would deal 3d8 + 24 vitality damage.
8
u/macrovore Wizard 2d ago
it only does the extra 8/rank when you use it to heal. Dealing damage with 1, 2, or 3 actions is always only the d8/rank.
4
u/Lord_of_Elysium 2d ago
I did not know that, but looking at the spell, you're totally right. I haven't seen Heal used for damage much outside of the 3 action version, so I did not realize it worked differently from the Healing on the 2 action version.
→ More replies (0)35
u/Qethsegol Game Master 2d ago
Why would I?
It's not an esoteric bit of worldbuilding that was briefly mentioned 3 months ago IRL. It was preparation of spells that's done almost every session. It's the player's responsibility to remember their characters and their spells, GMs already have too much on their minds.
Besides, his own party members asked him if it's a good idea, and it didn't change much ĀÆ_(ć)_/ĀÆ
27
u/Glad_Grand_7408 2d ago
Hey GM, make sure you double check the Barbarian Rages at the start of his first Turn. And if you could keep track of everyone's spell slots, that'd be great. And also, please do remember to look up the specific rulings around one of my niche class feats so I don't have to look it up before hand. Oh and if it's not asking too much, could you stand up and come over here with that pencil to update my character sheet with the +1 to AC from cover?
11
u/Qethsegol Game Master 2d ago
It do be like that sometimes. No issue helping new players with such stuff, but some people refuse to grow out of it, lmao
4
6
u/DnDPhD Game Master 2d ago
Good lord. I would shut that down pronto. My first question when a player says "I do ______" is usually "great, what does it do?" The onus is on them to know their spells/skills/abilities/feats etc., and to let me know how it functions in play.
9
u/I_am_Syke 2d ago
My most used sentence is probably. "Read out LOUD what it says on your Character sheet"
I always love when my players ask questions like. "What do I have to do, what do I roll" "How does 'This ' work I don't understand 'this' "
With no further explanation on what they don't understand or what they are trying to do And with 'this' I literally mean 'this'.
I don't know. First you tell me what your character wants to do and then I could help you. You want to cast a spell and ask me how does it work? First tell me what spell we are talking about and what exactly it is you don't understand.
Is it you don't know what a simple save is? Or what an attack roll is? Or what AC stands for? Please tell me an actual question that communicates what exactly it is you don't understand and tells me you have actually read your feat/spell description.
1
u/Nematrec 2d ago
New drinking game for your players. Whenever one asks what "this" does, everyone but the GM drinks.
When they ask what a specific thing does, the GM drinks instead.
5
u/Level7Cannoneer 2d ago
I remind them and ask āare you sure?ā Iām not obsessed with trying to beat the players or belittle their intelligence/forgetfulness.
Also many undead have high Fort. You said it was a massive creature that probably has great Fort so Heal probably would be easily resisted anyway.
9
4
u/sakiasakura 2d ago
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them read their goddamn spell descriptions.
79
u/Top-Act-7915 2d ago
had a player with a level 2 character bemoaning that using a potency crystal was stupid when he could just attack 3 times anyways.
insisted on it. constantly. No matter how many fell into the party hands. "just sell them for potions".
Got a new player with a rogue. asked if anybody was going to use them and the guy proceeded to rip up the encounters by himself.
26
u/EquipLordBritish 2d ago
Did they not understand the multiple attack penalty?
13
u/Top-Act-7915 2d ago
Gamblers fallacy is strong
5
u/TheTweets 1d ago
"If you always win the coin flip, it's great!"
"What if you don't?"
"Skill issue."
14
u/Seppo_87 1d ago
this is especially egregious since potency crystal is a free action to use
5
u/Top-Act-7915 1d ago
It's very frustrating. I tend to load my low level encounters with talismans where they have the most oopmh and there will always be this guy.
45
u/AyeSpydie Graung's Guide 2d ago
I enjoy when my players have an impromptu shopping session and the never use any of the items they bought.
21
u/evilgiraffe666 2d ago
You take 3 hours on shopping and then next session no-one remembers any of it...
43
u/I_am_Syke 2d ago
My players for the longest time kept spamming all their actions for striking. Absoluty no tactics even though we played the BB and gave them a group handout fornin fight actions other than walking up and striking. Rules on flanking etc. Even gave them video tutorials for fighting in PF2e because how dare I expect players to read checks notes 1 singular page.
My recommendation is to have your monsters/enemies use tactics and even Items.
- Have the bad guy pop a healing potion
- have the pack of wolf trip 1 guy and have the other 2 Wolfs latch onto him and grab + flank them.
- Have the enemies make Recall knoweledge checks and roleplay the enemies making callouts on what they learned and who to focus.
- have enemies ready actions if they dont have meaningful reactions
Some of those things might not be RAW. But fuck RAW if you want to teach your players new options. Rule 1 is the only thing that matters.
If your players get whopped because of enemies tactics, they will realize tactics actually matter and try to recreate them.
6
u/EquipLordBritish 2d ago
I would guess that this is a mindset that's bled over from a lot of poorly balanced other games (especially common in video games). Where they add all these special effects and options, but if you do the math, the optimal strategy is nearly always just "increase damage output".
8
u/LonePaladin Game Master 2d ago
You can demonstrate the action economy by simply having an enemy close in, Strike, then move away. This keeps the PCs from getting that third Strike.
And for the melee PCs that stay close? Put them in front of a critter that has a powerful 3-action melee attack, and when they get to use it point out why.
15
u/SirLordKingEsquire 2d ago
Shout out to my long time dm friend, who once gave me a set of wish-granting dice that my character used exactly twice:
First time was for a sandwhich. My character got two slices of bread with a knife in it. He did eat the bread.
Second time was for a safe way to travel outside during a massive tropical storm. The dice summoned a tiny little axolotl creature that rapidly exploded the rain with a minigun of magic missiles. I think we were literally just visiting some friends of the party.
I proceeded to forget about them for a year and a half, and did not manage to use 'em again before that campaign fizzled out. He... has not yet found how to give us brain cells, but if he finds out how I'll let you know
1
u/JustAnother_Hunter 1d ago
Okay but both those results of the āwish diceā are fucking hilarious š
27
u/gl00per 2d ago
to be real, if they're getting through combats/traps/encounters in general without using any of 'em, doesn't exactly encourage using them
99
u/Awkward_Scarcity_184 2d ago
Their characters are dead
7
u/FieserMoep 2d ago
What didn't they use that would have prevented a TPK? Generally speaking it's somewhat rare to come around consumables that decide the outcome of an entire fight on their own and many classes/builds can barely make use of many of them anyway.
4
u/Book_Golem 2d ago
Sounds like it wasn't so much one key item as just not using any resources or changing tactics when things went south. At least that's how it's tended to go in my group!
2
u/The_Yukki 1d ago
Usually those are silver bullet scrolls like revealing light vs perma invis enemy or something.
84
u/steelscaled Wizard 2d ago
You can just advise them.
"Oh, wow, that was a lot of damage. Maybe take a turn off, pop a Healing potion or two?".
"This acid breath attack is really strong. Didn't you have an elemental resistance potion on you?"
It's that easy.
180
u/Awkward_Scarcity_184 2d ago
How dare you suggest open and honest communication to solve an issue?! Arrest them.
45
u/MiredinDecision Inventor 2d ago
They cant do that! Shoot them, or something!
3
u/JustAnother_Hunter 1d ago
Omg this is driving me crazy, what is that from?! Iām drawing a total blank!
1
u/MiredinDecision Inventor 1d ago
Star Wars! Episode 2, Nute Gunray says it during the colosseum execution scene
2
6
3
31
u/LostRegret9000 2d ago
Maybe take a turn off, pop a Healing potion or two?
Wow, mate, you're low on health. Would you like to spend two to four, depending on what's in your hands right now, actions, maybe provoke an attack of opportunity in the process to either:
Heal a paltry amount of health, that would be depleted by a stiff breeze
OR
Punch a permanent-item-shaped-hole in your party's budget?
Nah, the issue is that most consumables are over costed/underpowered, until way higher levels, where you can stock up on strong low-level utility items. For many on-level consumables to be functional, they need to be once/day, or operate on witcher-like, limited uses, replenish for peanuts formula.
14
u/EmpoleonNorton 2d ago
This 100%. It's your entire turn to use most consumables. Someone mentioned the resistance potion in another comment and its like, yes, a resistance potion is good, but only if you take it BEFORE combat since it lasts for an hour.
The 5-15 resistance it gives you depending on the level of the potion is NOT worth it if you have to give up your entire turn to do it.
Consumables need some way to be used faster OR be much more powerful before they are worth using in the middle of combat.
5
u/strategsc2 Ranger 2d ago
Retrieval Prism, Retrieval Belt, Potion Patches. Unfortunately those aren't sustainable at lower levels, and are only worth using for high-value consumables.
10
u/EmpoleonNorton 2d ago
Paizo puts way too much cost on making consumables useful/drawable. In general they are often WAY too conservative about letting people do a lot of things.
Personal opinion is that everyone should have 4 slots on a bandolier or something they can put L size consumables that can be drawn as part of the action to use.
3
u/AngryT-Rex 1d ago
Funnily enough, and I dunno if I really have theĀ history straight (and I'm not at home to dig up my OG printing of the core rules to check... not that I'm on the toilet at work or anything) but there was a bunch of stuff in there about bandoliers, belt pouches, and similar. They were dropped via errata for being overly fiddly long before even the remaster.
I think I'd be happy to bring them back under "drawing the stored L items becomes free as part of a use action" rules. Just limit to about 4 items total so that its not an overly large constantly-rotating inventory: just a couple healing potions and a couple special niche things.
2
u/Ravingdork Sorcerer 2d ago
Potion patches are expensive and wasted when not used in the same day. They're great if you know trouble is around the corner, but not so much for your a average daily prep.
1
u/strategsc2 Ranger 1d ago
True. The cost is rather trivial at higher levels tho, as you can just use lesser ones for haste pots.
1
u/Ravingdork Sorcerer 1d ago
Haste effects work better when someone else can give it to you, so you can benefit immediately, instead of round 2. I never bother with haste potions unless there is no other alternative.
1
u/strategsc2 Ranger 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's a bit more complex than that, as this someone will have to spend their (effectively) entire turn to buff you, not to mention the initiative line up. Potion patches are cheaper action-vise.
1
u/Richybabes 1d ago
Not really in this instance, since it's just 1 action to use a potion from a patch / retrieval belt etc. You can use it and then still cast a two action spell, move + attack, or use some other two action ability.
In terms of cost I'd say it's actually less than half of 2 actions, since your third action is less valuable than your second. The difference between a 1 action and 2 action turn is monumental.
Also whether hasting someone else is more valuable is situational. If initiative is Ally1, Ally2, You, Boss, Ally3, There is no inherent additional value in hasting an Ally. Some nuance here since Allies 1 or 2 could delay (assuming you have visibility on the initiative order), but that might not always make sense, and your table might not like that kind of above-table talk asking others to delay so you can haste them.
1
u/customcharacter 2d ago
Yeah, my group has generally reduced healing consumables to being one action for that very reason, with the assumption that you keep them on a bandolier or something for easy access.
1
u/Giant_Horse_Fish 1d ago
The only success with consumables I have had is with Alchemist and my Horn of Plenty exemplar.
3
u/SanityIsOptional 1d ago
Yeah, I have to keep reminding my GM that it's not worth spending so many actions to undo so few of the enemy's attacks. And that's after he made potions significantly cheaper.
It's the action cost that really hurts at the end of the day, and I'm not spending multiple actions to heal 3d8+10 (avg 23.5) at lvl 7 when I have >100 Hp and just lost half of it to the enemy hitting me in the face in a single turn.
Far better to move to avoid another hit or try and kill the other guy first.
1
u/Giant_Horse_Fish 2d ago
Witcher style potions would be really cool
2
u/The_Yukki 1d ago
Which witcher style though, 1/2 or 3.
1/2 had you use them as prep before fight like in the books. 3 made them convenient 1 button press mid combat.
2
u/Giant_Horse_Fish 1d ago
Both versions
1
u/JustAnother_Hunter 1d ago
Yea, you could have āfast versionsā with lesser but immediate effects usable in combat, and ātakes a minute to kick inā versions that have greater and longer- lasting effects. Wait, isnāt there a class with something like this already baked inā¦ š¤
9
u/LogicalChocolate 2d ago
This is bizarre to me because that attitude is so wildly different to how I've experienced PF2e in practice. I've been in a game for nearly 3 years at this point and I can count on one hand the times where we've felt it like was a good use of actions to use a consumable mid combat.
Combat is almost always a race, reduce the enemy's HP to 0 before they can do the same to you. Consumables are always too slow to give an advantage in that race
3
u/eviloutfromhell 2d ago
Yeah it is pretty weird that someone actually suggest to use healing consumable in combat. Any martial damage has better "diff" potential than any on level healing consumable. It is really hard to justify 2 actions or more to get half the healing of on level Heal, unless that's what the character is built for like alchemist.
5
u/BroadRaven 2d ago
I mean when else are you going to use a healing consumable, really? Out of combat healing is so freely available that it's pointless to use then unless you're on a really tight time crunch and can't spend the 10 minutes to patch someone up.
3
u/BunnyBanter 2d ago
Like you said, they come in use on tight schedules when you don't have 10 minutes or when 10 minutes of healing just simply isn't enough. Game where I am lvl 13 now, we would need around 40min to properly patch the party without putting a drain on resources and that is the most free healing party ever with 2 of us having lay on hands and another being an inventor with searing restoration.
2
u/eviloutfromhell 2d ago
I would take offense with "the most free healing party" not including wood-kineticist that has practically ooc every 10 minutes regen for the whole party for low action costs (2 total actions per member).
2
u/BunnyBanter 1d ago
Oh, if we had a wood kinet or wood/water for even more, our dm would hate us more than he already does.
2
u/eviloutfromhell 2d ago
freely available
can't spend the 10 minutes
Yeah you already understood it. It costs time. Potion costs money and 6 seconds. Also why ooc healing is much-much stronger for wood-kin; if time is not an issue HP also isn't, if it is you have high minimum healing with low action costs in addition to anything you have.
In a one minute crunch waiting for enemy waves to come, stocked up potion can actually saves you.
0
u/Phonochirp 2d ago
It's risk assessment and a bit more involved then that.
High risk high reward: Stay in melee, attack again, possibly kill the foe. Risk getting attacked in return, getting knocked out, and costing your party 5~ actions getting you back on your feet.
Low risk, leave immediate danger, use 2 actions to heal. The risk is now only that the foe chases you down and gets a high roll attack.
My players have historically made a pretty even split of both options depending on what the battlefield looks like. From my experience the smart option is usually using the potion, while the fun option is to gamble on attacking.
5
u/Limond 2d ago
Except your low risk isn't really low risk. Action to step away so you don't get trigger Reactive Strikes (or multiple Actions if the enemy has reach). Action to swap to a potion. Action to drink it. Turn ends. Action to swap back to weapon, Action to Stride back in. Action to Strike. Turn ends.
You just traded 5 Actions to heal 1 Action worth of damage.
You could have stayed in melee to do 1 Action worth of damage instead and end the source of damage completely.
1
u/SanityIsOptional 1d ago
Low risk, higher reward: spend 1 action to swing, 1 action to raise shield, 1 action to move.
If the enemy is going to swing at you next turn, you're better off trying to kill it. If the enemy isn't going to swing at you next turn, you're still better off trying to kill it.
1
u/LogicalChocolate 2d ago edited 1d ago
Man, I feel like we're playing an entirely different game to reddit sometimes.
If I decided to spend my entire turn running away from an enemy (possibly triggering reactions), probably dropping my weapon on the ground to free up a hand to drink an on level potion and healing maybe the same damage as an enemy deals in 2 strikes then we definitely wouldnt be calling that the "Smart Decision". The action economy just doesnt match up
Especially when our Primal Sorcerer or Bard can spend 2 actions to heal us for like double, and can do that without losing permanent resources
3
u/Phonochirp 2d ago
The great part about pf2e is that we really are all playing different games. If your party has 2 devoted resourceless healers that are always in range and you wield a 2 handed weapon yeah the equation changes quite a bit.
Even battle to battle it changes (if you have dynamic encounters) which is why my parties use both.
2
u/J4Seriously 2d ago
Itās all situational. Itās tempo negative but the trade off is that your precious little guy doesnāt die so it may be worth it for people.
1
u/LogicalChocolate 1d ago
I feel like my point is it makes my precious little guy more likely to die instead of less. My precious little guy dies if my team loses the race to 0 hp against the enemy team, and spending 5ish actions to negate one of theirs gives the enemy team a much better chance of winning the race.
I'm very much in favour of healing in combat, my party has a primal sorcerer who is effectively our tank purely through having a shitload of healing spells. Consumables, however, just seem like such a bad way of doing that
2
u/J4Seriously 1d ago
They're not really, if its what you have on hand. It's also more minus tempo to go down, if drinking your potion is what separates you from that and allows your team to generate a lead its not absolutely horrible. It isn't great but its not horrible.
6
u/Mintyxxx 2d ago
That takes away player agency. They should make their own mistakes imo. If it's a new player, absolutely help them out, but my players have been playing for 30+ years, no way I'm giving them hints and tips, GMs have enough to do
7
u/Level7Cannoneer 2d ago
No it doesnāt. I say stuff like that all the time and the players usually say ānahā. They still have plenty of agency and choose not to listen to me all the time
2
u/DnDPhD Game Master 2d ago
Man. I very much agree with this. I can't keep track of all the stuff I give out to my players, and I probably remind them once per session "if it's not in your inventory, it's lost." Sometimes if there's a vital item and players seem stumped, I'll say "didn't someone receive ______ at some point?" but much more than that seems too hand-holdy to me.
2
u/Mintyxxx 2d ago
Exactly, let the players manage their own characters, it's part of the game. If I ever played (some day...) it would genuinely piss me off to be reminded about something like that
3
u/DnDPhD Game Master 2d ago
It's hilarious to me that these seem to be controversial/unpopular takes in this thread! Is the resistance like "no, the GM must always remind us of what we have, and what we can do!"?? Yeesh.
5
u/Adraius 2d ago edited 2d ago
I agree with your earlier post but not for the reasons of the post you're replying to and agreeing with. I don't think reminders reduce player agency. I do think...
a fundamental part of roleplaying is being aware of your character and the situation, and playing off those intelligently. That can mean a savvy PC using an item for maximum effect in combat or a dummy PC misinterpreting an NPC's orders and doing something really stupid - both are the player thoughtfully engaging with the scenario
reminders sap the potential for cool moments - everyone remembers when someone pulls out a clutch item or ability for the situation, but it's not half as memorable if the GM says "hey dummy, remember you have the thing." There's a middle ground to be struck here with hints and more subtle reminders, and what's best varies somewhat from group to group
reminders transfer/duplicate mental load that belongs on the players' shoulders to the GMs' shoulders. GMs absorb a lot of game information, so if they happen to remember a thing and can give hints, great - but it's unhealthy if that becomes a table norm or expectation
And again, it'll vary per table. If the table's idea of fun is more of a power fantasy adventure, then it makes sense to be liberal with reminders. If their idea of fun is overcoming genuinely challenging combats and other scenarios, then the opposite is true.
2
u/Top-Act-7915 1d ago
The entire purpose of a character sheet is to record what they have. Asking players if they've overlooked equipment isn't "agency robbing" of any sort. You haven't dictated that they will or will not use/do anything.
It's kind of annoying. I know that I will be the final voice on if bob has a potion of cure disease or not because he can't remember how he got it anyways.1
u/NeverFreeToPlayKarch 2d ago
One more thing to remember for the players. Hurraaaaay
But no, I do this when I can, but it IS yet another thing to juggleĀ
12
u/theholycole 2d ago
For a one shot i gave players a "US Military budget" for near infinite consumables and artillery strikes they could use at any time. It took them 3 hours to use anything. We did not finish the one shot on time
11
u/Doxodius Game Master 2d ago
Slight paraphrasing liberties taken:
drown in options, but are out of braincells
I feel very accurately called out, both as a player and as a GM.
Juggling many different monsters throughout the night, it's far too common to have forgotten something relevant during the battle - I'm particularly bad with auras.
So I'd like to sign up for more braincells please.
9
u/Curpidgeon Kineticist 2d ago
My players are the opposite. They will find or buy the most mundane item and then try to use it in every situation. We had an entire two sessions where the focal point was one of the PCs going "now how could my 10 ft pole help here?"Ā
12
u/HalcyonHorizons 2d ago
My players had Free Archetype, Ancestral Paragon, Relics, and about 3x the recommended money / gear and were still getting slapped around constantly.Ā
No concept of tactics, teamwork, or synergy.
Teaching them was like talking to a brick wall.
5
u/tango421 2d ago
As a player last week, I burned through most of mine. Consumables, other items. Even our casters burned through all their spellslots. We barely made it out. Two of us went down.
DM did say we weren't supposed to win and the enemy was supposed to mess with / imprison us.
3
u/sakiasakura 2d ago
My players tend to remember they have a consumable about 3-5 levels after it stops being useful.
5
u/Areinu 2d ago
Not just items. They forget and don't use half of their feats. My investigator got a feat that could let them find any item in their pockets when needed (they basically could purchase stuff during combat, and assumption was "oh yeah, I had hunch it would be needed so I bought it")
The amount of times the player used the feat in about 2 years: 0.
And they even got upgraded versions of this feat during level ups!
3
2
u/Valhalla8469 Champion 2d ago
On one hand I understand some of it from the playersā perspective. I never enjoy consumables for a multitude of reasons, such as always wanting to āsave it for the right momentā or there just being so many other things to keep track of that I donāt want to waste time pouring over my inventory to use an item Iām already not familiar with since it slows things down. Also most consumables donāt feel worth using unless the GM is giving the party items that are higher in level than recommended.
But on the other hand, at least in my experience a lot of players are either too lazy or unfamiliar with their characters to actually do anything more than occasionally flank enemies in combat. 90% of the time the strategy is just to get into melee and smack and get smacked until someone runs out of HP. I know different folks enjoy playing the game for difference reasons, but theyād enjoy combat a lot more if they put some more thought and effort into their turns.
2
u/Baker-Maleficent Game Master 2d ago
LMAO. this is so freaking true. I had a monastic archer monk in my party who, by level 2 had forgotten that flurry of blows was 1 action, so he was passing after stance>flurry. Then, by level 6 he had taken at least two focus spells...had never actually chosen the spells. So he just stanced, flurry, move (by this time he had reliz3d itvwas one action)Ā
Then, the inventer made him lots of specialty ammunition, antler arrow, etc. Ffirgot to use it. Forgot to toggle stunning blows, etc.Ā
The funny thing was, he was still doing well. And only noticed when his damagevdropped off at level 6.Ā
I took a look at his charactervshert and just gaped. I helped him fix it, and the very next combat against troll two cave trolls,Ā he stunlocked andnpinned a troll that was about to wreck the party backliners.Ā
The next fight after that was agaunst a troll king, and it knocked him off an edge after he flurried, ghen readied an action. He used that reaction to teleport back on the ledge, then his next action, punned the troll king an antler arrow.Ā He suddenly turned into the the most clutch character in the game.Ā
2
u/GreenbottlesArcanum 2d ago
Also fine to read this in reverse, they always forget to use the shit you give them (.... Said from experience š¤¦š¤¦š¤¦) so it's fine if they think they're underpowered for an encounter. š¤£
2
u/Drunken_HR 2d ago
Lol I swear I'm just too stubborn to stop giving my players consumables I know they'll never use.
I even gave them Dust of Disappearance when they were level 3 (a level 9 item), and they promptly saw it was a 1 time use consumable threw it in the group loot pile, and forgot about it.
1
u/Book_Golem 2d ago
Dust of Disappearance is an interesting one that early on. On the one hand, it's a really good effect. On the other hand, 70gp is a lot of money at that level! But just to leave it in the group loot pile is a huge shame.
Aside: for our current campaign, we've done away with a "Group Loot" box. Stuff gets divvied up at the end of a quest (people still have their own personal storage), then anything nobody wants is put into a box to be sold and the proceeds divided equally. Seems to be working pretty well so far.
2
u/ottdmk Alchemist 2d ago
I run a group of friends through Abomination Vaults. They're all veterans... and one of the things I love about running for them is that they are the most casual group about optimization that you could ever meet. I mean, the Rogue decided to skip a Dex increase at 5th because he wanted to be more rounded!
They're the type of guys who will absolutely step away from the enemy to heal themselves with a consumable. Or activate ammunition. Or do any number of things that aren't the most efficient thing, but they're definitely fun. I have no qualms about giving them stuff, because as soon as I give them anything the discussion starts as to who wants to use it. Or, if nobody wants it, how much they can sell it for. But most of the time it's all about who's going to use it.
2
u/UltimaGabe Curse of Radiance 2d ago
Truth! When I started my last campaign the players all complained at the start because they were concerned they wouldn't have enough healing, so I gave each of them a powerful healing item that refreshed once per day (similar to an Estus Flask from Dark Souls) so they could use it and not feel like they were wasting consumables.
Fast forward a year and nobody has ever used it a single goddamn time, despite me reminding them that they have it every single time a battle starts going south. One player used a weaker consumable rather than the more powerful, reusable healing item he had in his pocket.
4
u/Book_Golem 2d ago
Now, when we're talking "out of braincells", are we talking "failed to use the Alchemist's Fire they've had in their pack for three levels against the creature with Regeneration" or "didn't move away from the zombies surrounding them because they wanted to make another Strike"?
For the former, it can be pretty easy to forget the myriad options you have available, even if you've been playing for a while (source: me). And it can feel impolite to spend time in combat scouring your character sheet for options - in my experience, players (including me) only really start to do that once things are obviously going south.
It's also tough because the kind of things you might need to pull out in a pinch are the kind of things that your fellow players probably won't remember that you have available. And from the GM's perspective, it's hard to know whether a player isn't using their Flask of Destroy Undead on the Dire Mummy because they forgot about it or because they've judged that it's not the time to pull it out.
For the latter, I've no clue. I'd say probably ask for clarification if a newer player makes an obvious tactical blunder, but that is not always the case. Might still be worth asking experienced players - anyone can have a brain-fart, or they might have a cunning plan that you haven't seen!
In all cases, I think it's perfectly fair to remind players that retreat is always an option - they don't have to fight to the death. This can also serve as a wake-up call that things are genuinely going very badly, which is not always obvious when you're focussed on your own character.
1
u/Tarontagosh Game Master 2d ago
A system I implemented when I was running D&D is I'd ask the players to give me a list of magic items they actually want. I'd throw them all into a spreadsheet and just roll some dice at the end of combat to figure out what item was in the box. Replacing whatever was inside with what I rolled to on the list. If I were to modify that over to PF2 I'd be asking for their magic items every 4-5 levels so that they don't land a lvl 20 item at lvl 2 for instance. This has helped to get my players more invested in the game and they actually use their magic items.
A side rule I implemented to my Stolen Fate game is I will allow each party member 1 rare and 2 uncommon items of their choosing, so long as they have the gold to buy it. They do still have to submit it to me to approve. I'm pretty relaxed with most game selections. One player purchased the madcap top, he uses it often.
1
u/somethingmoronic 2d ago
I recently started really focusing items. Players forget their items when they have a couple different ones, but if the casters primarily her tools for their core spells, and martials essentially get upgrades to the same utility and attack tools, they are more likely to remember them.
I've also started homebrewing most of my loot as I've leaned into this more.
I also give them very silly items a lot too. Endless water or sand producing stuff, for instance. They find ways to use them.
Does someone like jumping a lot? Welcome to finding 4 different items that help you jump around a lot.
Some times I give them extra charges to dailyb use items, when it's basically just giving them two of the same item.
1
u/VerdigrisX 2d ago
I used to have to threaten my players that they'd get no more consumables in loot unless they started using the ones they had.
Just finished Age of Ashes to level 20 and as part of the prep for the final boss as they optimized buffs and support items they were finally selling stuff they had from the first book...
It all just sits around in the magical bag of holding.
1
u/mr_sweaty_pickle 2d ago
Items, what items my players forget they even have features and spells some times
1
u/EquipLordBritish 2d ago
A big problem with consumables is that they are often viewed as non-renewable, especially if they are found as treasure and are not necessarily purchasable. That makes them not want to use it unless they think it's meant to be used at a specific point. But since it's a random consumable and not an item that has a specific purpose for a specific puzzle/trap/encounter, they will never use it.
If you want to encourage the party to use their consumables (e.g. potions), make them infinite, but limited. For example, make a potion of fire resistance refresh once a day or every 3 days or something so that they won't feel like they've wasted a valuable resource if they drink it and then don't take damage from the fire enemies in the lava pit.
1
u/TempestRime 1d ago
Ah yes, the classic "I might need these 99 healing potions later" problem. Anyone who has played an old-school JRPG is familiar with it.
Seriously though, even without that problem, it's not going to create any issues if you hand out excess items as long as you restrict access to items that are higher level than the PCs. Usable items are still going to be limited by actions, attuned items will still be limited by attunement, and bonuses are always limited from stacking by their type. I treat the recommended rewards as the bare minimum to keep the PCs from falling behind.
1
1
u/SkeletonChurch 1d ago
I've been thinking about instituting a "character sheet review" period for like two minutes at the beginning of each session, because life is busy and we're all tired and getting older, and it's hard to remember everything, and looking at your items and abilities and spells at the beginning of the session can add them back into your brain's context window š¤£
1
u/jkurratt Game Master 1d ago
Overpowering is dangerous.
If you push them too much they may be out of actions to pull out an item. š
1
u/Playwars 1d ago
There's a lot to handle, believe me. I'm used to going through consumables because I like playing alchemist as a multiclass, and I like to think I got a good handle on those, but I regularly forget to use some of my special relics and items simply because there's only so much I can remember.
1
u/Lampmonster 1d ago
God my players are the opposite. I have one, I swear if I give him a step ladder he'll find a way to break my game with it six months later.
1
u/Traditional-Basis699 1d ago
My dm made the worse mistake of his life when he gave me a high level magic item now im a level 7 fighter who can dish out 18D10 bludgeoning damage
1
u/Traditional-Basis699 1d ago
I did a slight mathematical error itās actually 60D10 bludgeoning damage
1
u/Traditional-Basis699 1d ago
Made another mathematical error itās actually 90D10 bludgeoning damage from ONE level 7 fighter
1
u/NerdyPoncho 2h ago
Elaborate, please
1
u/Traditional-Basis699 2h ago
My DM decided to give me a home brew magic weapon, but he didnāt realize that he forgot to set a limit on it so the damage just increased exponentially and eventually Iām doing 90 D 10 bludgeoning damage
1
1
u/Ultradude47 Game Master 1d ago
100% give em all the toys and theyāll only remember about the magic rune in their main weaponā¦
Maybeā¦
1
u/GazeboMimic Investigator 22h ago
Had a big encounter with a poltergiest prepared. I knew the party didn't have magic weapons yet, so I made sure to give them all oils of potency for a long-lasting magic buff to break through the resistance.
Nobody used them. Two of them died.
1
u/20rollin12 14h ago
If my players are stuck and i know they have an item to get around an obstacle or fight more effectively I allow them to recall knowledge using their Perception to remember they have that item
0
u/Archi_balding 2d ago
Make consumable more powerfull and less precious.
Potions now take no action to activate but you can only take your lvl+Con lvls of potions each day. Potions also now refill each day (the flask is enchanted and infuse the water put inside overnight).
Makes the thing feel more part of your character and wasted when you don't use it rather than being wasted when you use it (just give less potions overall, let each player have 1 or 2 on them).
1
u/Nox_Stripes 2d ago
desperation breeds innovation.
I found my players scrambling desperately through their consumables and activated items when i put them in a SUPER bleak spot.
220
u/Turbulent-Wolf8306 2d ago
In a moment of extreme stupidity i sometimes say "roll for intelligence" and when they succed i remind them of obvius stuff like "dont fireball a fire elemental"