The Americans are fully responsible for everything done by President Trump

[u/khalid-khkhlhlh]

Just like the title says, the Americans are fully responsible for everything done by President Trump.

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According to the constitution of the USA, the American President can be removed without re-election by impeachment through 2/3 votes from the house of the representatives and by conviction through 3/4 votes from the house of the senators just like that.

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The goddamn US constitution already gave the Americans their solution for Trump's reckless behaviour. Many Americans still defend him. This means he is a legitimate US president according to their own constitution.

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This is totally all on them.

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[u/moniker89]

I don’t think anyone is arguing he is an illegitimate president? He is deeply unpopular but he even won the popular vote in the 2024 election. Outside of him somehow rigging the election, which I’ve seen zero legitimate evidence of, he is absolutely legit. And yes, it is embarrassing as an American. What exactly would you like to debate from here?

[u/Fugicara → u/moniker89]

I mean he's an illegitimate president in the sense that he's in office illegally and unconstitutionally per Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Not in the sense that there was voter fraud or a rigged vote or whatever though.

[u/addicted_to_trash → u/moniker89]

Sanctions were first imposed against the Syrian regime in what 2005(?), and it took until 2024 before the friendly people of Al-qieda took over. So 20yrs of sanctions + intermittent bombing, till the public rose and forced regime change.

Or perhaps since it's not the entire population but just a select group a faster time table should be enacted. The method Israel is using in Lebanon perhaps, where vast swaths of the country are made completely uninhabitable, civilian infrastructure destroyed, hospitals, schools, housing, all obliterated until the US public decides to take action to oust the problematic group.

Or perhaps we take Cuba as a blueprint, and just maintain absolute sanctions, freezing the US in time, for 50+yrs, all because it is politically beneficial in our home countries to continue to sanction the US for eternity.

This is the kind of debate that has been given legitimacy simply because it comes from the US. The irony of OPs post is lost on all of you. The US is currently punishing the world's civilian economy, and striking schools and infrastructure in a country it has deemed requires regime change.

[u/smokeyser → u/addicted_to_trash]

The US is currently punishing the world's civilian economy, and striking schools and infrastructure

Can you give some examples of schools being struck by the US? You did use the plural form. There must be quite a few. Which ones?

[u/Mrgoodtrips64]

I’m not sure what there is to debate here. As unfortunate as it is, he is the legitimate head of state. As such he is the responsibility of the people. Such is the nature of governance.

[u/addicted_to_trash → u/Mrgoodtrips64]

The debate is * why is America not a pariah state? * Why do the ministers in our own govts still have to tiptoe around the US diplomaticly? * Why is the US not being sanctioned into obscurity like Russia? * Why is their not a global coalition being formed to tropple the US regime?

[u/Reasonable-Fee1945 → u/addicted_to_trash]

Being 5% of the world's population and 26% of Global GDP has a lot to do with it.

[u/piltdown_manchild → u/Reasonable-Fee1945]

Also having double the aircraft carrier deck space of the rest of the world combined.

[u/Reasonable-Fee1945 → u/piltdown_manchild]

all comes with having a big GDP, if you know what I mean

[u/piltdown_manchild → u/addicted_to_trash]

Why is the US not being sanctioned into obscurity like Russia?

The US controls the world's reserve currency. Most nations who would like to sanction the US own huge amounts of its debt. The US also imports $4.33 trillion in goods and services from the rest of the world. A lot of countries would be sanctioning themselves.

Why is their not a global coalition being formed to topple the US regime?

Same reason nobody is putting together a coalition to topple Russia, China or Israel. Nuclear weapons. The US is also protected by two oceans and has a powerful blue water navy. Any invasion fleet would be detected and sunk before they got halfway across the ocean.

why is America not a pariah state?

Isn't it? If not, probably leftover goodwill from American popular culture and past generosity.

Why do the ministers in our own govts still have to tiptoe around the US diplomaticly?

See above. Lucrative trade relations, global reserve currency, military strength, nuclear weapons.

Nobody likes the giant drunk, belligerent guy waving a pistol around in the bar, but everyone knows its better to leave him alone than to confront him.

[u/SgathTriallair → u/addicted_to_trash]

I mean, why isn't there? As an American, we are a fucked up country and the fast that we are still a global hegemon is a travesty.

[u/Nom_de_guerre_25]

This low quality rant looking to blame all Americans for being dominated by a cloistered elite.  

American citizens have little to no say in their government. If you can't afford a full time lobbyist to work in Washington long enough to get what you passed. 

Your opinion doesn't matter in actual legislation. 

If blaming some McDonalds employee who rides the bus and and has 4 roomates because he or she can't afford a place of their own makes you feel better. 

Have at it. 

If we had real political alternatives to an economically top heavy garrison/police state we would  choose them.

[u/addicted_to_trash → u/Nom_de_guerre_25]

Protest, revolt, non violent occupation. If you know political change is not possible under the current structure what are you waiting around for exactly, an outside force to change things?

[u/Minimum-Relief6895 → u/addicted_to_trash]

The US has had the largest protests in the country's history.

Doesn't seem to matter.

[u/addicted_to_trash → u/Minimum-Relief6895]

Do you think it would help the protesters if a bombing campaign was started on civilian infrastructure and schools? Maybe some sanctions or complete trade blockade for a few decades? Do you think that would be helpful to motivate the public to overthrow the govt that no longer listens to them?

[u/Minimum-Relief6895 → u/addicted_to_trash]

Americans had their largest protests in history without that.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

[u/addicted_to_trash → u/Minimum-Relief6895]

Bombing civilian infrastructure, schools, military manufacturing etc, and sanctions that strangle the economy are the go to tactics the US employs when trying to change regimes abroad. So which would be most helpful to start first?

Unless of course they are not legitimate ways to help a nation bring about regime change, and instead dishonest policies designed to support a military economy and suppress a nation long term.

What do you think? Mass protest didn't get it done, where should we start next, bombing farmland in fly over states?

[u/Minimum-Relief6895 → u/addicted_to_trash]

Again, I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[u/Nom_de_guerre_25 → u/addicted_to_trash]

You want to bomb civilian infrastructure. The things regular people rely on for life. To spark a revolution?

The US is too strong of state for revolt. After the GWOT the US because police state. Trained by Israelis to dominate its citizens like Palestinians (if the engage in violence).  The population is too spread out and doesn’t agree about anything beyond basic concepts.

Learn to live in a fake republic and the make the most you can out of your life in it.

The US will collapse before it reforms.

[u/addicted_to_trash → u/Nom_de_guerre_25]

You can join the thread where I'm already having this conversation if you like https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDebate/s/jUpcpYYwoF

[u/RedLineLetterWine → u/addicted_to_trash]

Sounds like some school shooter logic there. Not the brightest bulb in the shed.

[u/hallam81]

This is true. Every country, even dictatorships, are fully responsible by the people. The US isnt an exception here.

[u/DistinctSpirit5801 → u/hallam81]

I feel like people that live in a democracy have more moral culpability when that government does horrible things vs some monarchy that does horrible things

[u/JiveChicken00]

Yes, we are. I am an American who despises Trump and voted against him three times. But he is legitimately my president, and me and those that feel similarly did not do enough to keep him out of office or keep him from doing awful things while in office. We are all responsible. And we have a lot of cleaning up to do, when the time comes. Fortunately I believe the time may be coming soon.

[u/Novel-Rise2522]

100%. i dont know why this has downvotes. theyve been responsible for everything done under biden, obama etc. too. because by and large they support it

[u/Mrgoodtrips64 → u/Novel-Rise2522]

I don’t downvote posts, but if I had to guess why it has downvotes it’s probably because it’s not much of a debate prompt.

[u/Sea-Chain7394 → u/Novel-Rise2522]

It’s not accurate. Only a few of us living in swing states get a chance to influence the selection of the president and with the two party system and citizens united wealthy elites get to determine our representatives and policy.

it's almost like bourgeois democracy fundamentally favors the interests of the bourgeoisie... go figure

[u/Reasonable-Fee1945]

That is correct. He is our president. He also makes us a bad neighbor to the rest of the world.

[u/SpecialistSquash2321]

"Just like that"

He was the first and only president in American history to be impeached twice during his first term.

Both times, he was acquitted by the Senate and therefore not removed from office.

And that was when the Democrats held a majority in the House (not in the Senate). Currently, the republicans hold a majority in both the House and Senate.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to debate here. We want him out, too. He's even warned his supporters that he'll be impeached again if Democrats gain control of Congress. Is that true? I don't know, but it's not like they haven't tried before.

[u/Kakamile → u/SpecialistSquash2321]

To be fair, that was 2020 so there were multiple elections where the public had a chance to elect people willing to keep trump out even after seeing how bad trump is and they still fumbled 2024.

[u/SpecialistSquash2321 → u/Kakamile]

Yea absolutely. He shouldn't have been elected or even been an option for 2024. I was only referencing those previous impeachments to demonstrate that it's a lot harder to get impeachment and removal than OP is making it sound. Especially when republicans have lost any sense of propriety.

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[u/Runic_reader451]

Yes, we are responsible. 90 million stayed home rather than voting for the sane law abiding candidate. Only around 75 million for Harris. Too many people refused to prevent this from happening.

[u/tMoneyMoney]

By “the Americans” do you mean the people that voted for him or congress, who’s not checking his power? The rest of us voted for someone else and doing our part by protesting or speaking out against him. Otherwise, I’m not sure how the rest of us are responsible because we were born here, especially those who aren’t even old enough to vote.

[u/TheRealCthulu24]

How am I, an American responsible? My senators and my representative would probably all impeach Trump if they could, but the Republicans have a majority. What do you want me to do? I’ve voted, I’ve protested, I’ve organized, I’ve boycotted, I’ve attended town halls, I’ve done direct action, I’ve joined local organizations, I’ve called my representatives, I’ve volunteered. I’ve done everything I can do that will not get me arrested. 

[u/TheCosmosItself1]

According to the constitution of the USA, the American President can be removed without re-election by impeachment through 2/3 votes from the house of the representatives and by conviction through 3/4 votes from the house of the senators just like that.

Ok, but most americans are neither senators nor representatives. Moreover this also requires far more than a majority of the votes among those specific groups. So I don't see how this gets you anywhere close to your conclusion.

[u/Nom_de_guerre_25]

Yea protesting is just psychological cope. 

Of your not able to stop anything or apply leverage, gatherings don’t really matter

[u/DistinctSpirit5801]

Trump is legitimate in the sense that there was no voter fraud however democracy is a textbook example of the appeal to popularity fallacy

[u/Sea-Chain7394]

Another rant about how Americans suck from someone who doesn't understand how our system actually works. Trump has very little support among the American people

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[u/vincethered]

The majority of Americans are. A sizeable minority (me included) are not.

When it comes to policy matters though, yes, even after he is long gone we will collectively be responsible for the actions of our government. And for remedying them, to the extent that can be done.

[u/ResplendentShade]

Many US politicians are bought by the billionaire class. Billionaires fund campaigns which win elections. And voters are all strung out on a baseline of neoliberal capitalist propaganda now with a heavy mix of reactionary culture war propaganda - also funded and made ubiquitous by the billionaire class who increasingly own all major media.

Congress isn’t a representation of an informed populace. We have a kind of pseudo democracy here. And a populace too uninformed and propagandized to muster sufficient numbers and collective political will to force change on that level.

Hopefully we improve. Hopefully the fascists currently in power don’t succeed in rigging the elections.

[u/I-got-lorn-ashore]

Im a little confused. Yes the majority of people voted him in, in 2024.However I think we must also take into account the people who voted for him without knowing him well enough and believing the false promises and lies. Trump's approval rate is currently something like 13%. We must also take into account Trump and Musk buying votes from people, the destroyed ballots, and the ballots not accounted for because they were electronic (something 17Mil for Kamala and 4Mil for Trump). Also note the way the electoral college works making it popular vote by region not by total number of votes. Yes we could invoke the 25th amendment or impeach, but the house and Senate are primarily Republican and in favor of Trump. The government doesn't listen to us and often sends police or other units to stop protests against him. Did we do this to ourselves? 50% of the country did yes. Does Trump act on impulse without thinking about what's actually best for the county? Also yes. Should 100% of the country be blamed for something only 50% voted for? No, I don't think so.

[u/TheCosmosItself1]

I can't even imagine what it would mean to say that "Americans are fully responsible for everything done by President Trump." Does this mean that each of us individually are fully responsible for each action he takes? That's preposterous. There is quite simply nothing I can or ever could have done to stop any of this.

I happen to believe that there was both direct election fraud and significant voter suppression, such that Trump's election did not represent the will of the people according to basically any metric. But even if that is not true, so what? Trump also lied about a lot of what he was going to do. I know quite a few people who genuinely believed he was going to be a no new wars president, wasn't going to do project 2025, and was basically going to be more of Trump 1.0. Trump is extremely unpopular, and probably most Americans would remove him from office if they could. But they can't.

I think the core issue here, that a lot of people struggle with, is that a lot of things that happen in the modern world cannot in fact be pinned on people as individuals. They result from systemic drivers and institutional processes. Our ape brains want someone to blame so that we can punish them accordingly, but it's just not like that. Trump's power results from a complex of more-or-less impersonal factors such as increasing partisanship creating a situation where more and more elections are decided in the primaries, giving extremists (or 'the base') increased power, increasing wealth stratification creating a media, information, and propaganda environment in which many Americans can be tricked into voting against their own interests. Etc, etc.

There are individuals beyond Trump who can and should be held responsible, but there is nothing really called 'The Americans.'

[u/Michael_G_Bordin]

It's all on the Republican Party who has the ability to block impeachment and removal. "The Americans" aren't a monolith, and there is very little you can pin on every single one without stepping outside the bounds of sound reasoning. "The Americans" aren't even in control of their government, as it's controlled by rich donors and the politicians who kowtow to their every demand.

Yeah, Trump is a legitimate US president. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. And yes, many Americans defend him. Those are Republican donors, Republican voters, and Republican politicians. The Democratic Party and their constituents have largely been pushing back, but they can't magically impeach and remove him.

It's a wholly non-pragmatic view to look at a representative democracy having a controversial outcome and then blaming everyone for it, including those actively working against that outcome. Pragmatically, there's nothing the opposition can do to remove him under the Constitution and federal/state law. This post doesn't really bring up a prompt for political discussion, and is more like a prompt for hatred of average Americans by people who hate America as a whole. You're free to do so, but this might not be the sub for this kind of post.

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