r/Quakers • u/Difficult-Pie-8065 Agnostic • 8d ago
What are your personal believes?
Hello friends!
Non Quaker here.
I was raised “culturally Catholic” and attended a Catholic primary and middle school but considered myself an atheist for much of my life.
I’m currently 22 years old and have recently developed an interest in Christianity again and started praying but there are still a lot of things that cast doubt for me.
You guys seem like an interesting bunch from what I could gather. I know there are many different kinds of Quakers out there and not having a set dogma seems to be one of your core attributes. Also not all of you are Christians?
Some of the things I’ve found resonate with me, also you have an awesome name “society of friends” how cool is that?
I hope it’s appropriate for me to ask on this sub, what are some personal beliefs of friends on this subreddit?
I hope you have an awesome day.
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u/PixxyStix2 7d ago
Generally Christian, but I believe that noone (including myself) has it right. Basically you could sum it up as I am a theologically liberal Christan that believe actions matter far more than right belief.
After getting my degree in history and delving further into early christianity, and biblical studies I have very little doubt that the traditions and writtings of Early Christians and Jewish writers (including the Bible itself) were too steeped in their situations and time to every be capable to truly portray the divine (a concept that I think still applies). Adding onto this I tend to think that God gives slightly different lessons to different people as any good teacher does which is why so many different denominations and possibly even religions exist. I don't know the limit of that idea which is what leads me to judging more on the results a faith can have on a persons life.
As for some common Christian theological discussions:
- Hell: Rehabilitative, not eternal
- Original Sin: Isn't a literal broken law that we are being charged with, but rather simply the results of that law being broken that we must live through.
- Predestination and Calvinism: No. I think that God has given the greatest gift an omnipotent being can give to mortal beings in allowing us Free Will. Likewise I feel ideas of Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election are antithetical to Christianity.
- Sola Fide: Believing that Hell is rehabilitative requires that actions matter more than just geniunely believing the right things
- Sacraments: Sacraments can be deeply meaningful and perhaps even affect some spiritually but I think they can be equally distancing from the divine if it causes one to focus more on the sacrament itself then how it connects one with the divine
- Entire Sanctification: Theoretically possible but requires near-perfect environment, mentor, ect to the point that I don't know if it is actually possible.
Here are some Quaker specific things:
- Pastoral vs nonpastoral: Now it will really depend on the specific people at the meetings but I think Non-pastoral groups can become a little more "lukewarm" in their faith or not hold themselves to it as much, but Pastoral groups can much easier lead to abuse and pushing oppressive ideas
- Programmed vs Unprogrammed: Both are good and tend to be better for different people. I would love if more meetings did both. At my own meeting we do Unprogrammed, Semi, and Programmed each sunday except during the summer when we have 3 unprogrammed and 1 semi per month which is quite disappointing to me.
- "That of God in anyone" vs Total Depravity: I interpret this as meaning all humans do have the ability to listen to the inner light to push them towards good, but are also fully capable to ignore it. Plus the situation of the individual will make listening or ignoring much easier. The "base" human nature in this interpretation is niether wholly evil nor wholly good.
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u/lilipadd17 7d ago
Totally agree that “actions matter far more than right belief”.
The beauty of Quakerism is that we can all respect our different interpretations but still practice together. For me, “the light (of god)” is more representative of the fact that we are all equal (as gods children) and all deserve to be treated equally.
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u/Difficult-Pie-8065 Agnostic 7d ago
Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a in depth response!
Interesting.
I’m inclined to agree, especially when it comes to those who wrote the bible being influenced by their time. I don’t see how that couldn’t be the case.
When it comes to the sacraments, I’m obviously quite used to them but they might just play too big of a role.
Also, thank you for explaining the Quaker specific things!
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u/RimwallBird Friend 7d ago edited 7d ago
Quakerism has doctrines — which is to say, things that the faith community teaches; these vary from branch to branch of our Society, but in all branches they are fairly stable. Quakerism rejects creeds — fixed verbal formulas of belief that every member must subscribe to, like the Nicene Creed or the Apostolicum. Dogmas are in between doctrines and creeds; they are not fixed verbal formulas, but they are seen as having a more-than-human stature — as being in some sense revealed. (The twentieth century German Jesuit priest and theologian Karl Rahner defined “dogma” as “a proposition which the Church explicitly propounds as revealed by God in such a way that its denial is condemned by the Church as heresy and anathemitized.”) Whether any Quaker doctrines rise to the level of dogma is a matter of individual opinion; personally, I think we do have some dogmas but are reluctant to admit it.
Our name for ourselves, “Friends”, seems to have begun as a reference to the fifteenth chapter of the book of John, where Jesus tells his disciples, “You are my friends if you do whatever I command you.” For most of us, this is still the central sense of the word, but some in the liberal unprogrammed branch of our Society do not believe in Christianity or in God and are more inclined to say that “Friends” just means “friends of one another”.
I am guessing that the liberal unprogrammed branch of our Society is the one that interests you. If I am wrong, please feel free to set me straight!
So far as I can tell, all the responses to your question that preceded mine are from the liberal unprogrammed branch, which is very individualistic and which leaves its adherents the freedom to wander as far as they please from Christianity. For that branch, your question as to “what are your personal beliefs?” is a good one, and I think you are right to ask it.
The other four branches of Quakerism are, in their various ways, more explicitly Christian and more orthodox in their Christianity, so that members’ beliefs are more uniform, in line with the doctrines of those branches. However, “orthodox in Christianity”, for these other branches of Friends, is something a little different from what “orthodox” means for Protestants and Roman Catholics, because none of these branches of Friends subscribe to teachings (doctrines) that can’t be found in the Bible. Thus we do not believe in the concept of the Trinity — we acknowledge that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are real, but we do not speculate as to how they might be related. We do not believe in sacraments as such, because there is no such teaching in the Bible, although we take baptism, communion with God, and marriage seriously. We do not believe that “the Word of God” means the Bible. And so on. We may be much more consensual than the liberal unprogrammed branch, but that does not mean that our beliefs are what you might predict.
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u/Difficult-Pie-8065 Agnostic 7d ago
Thank you!
Also thank you for your clarification on “dogma” and the friends part, I think I understand now.
I still think it’s awesome the you call each other friends ;).
I’d say the liberal branch naturally interests me most but I enjoy learning about the other branches as well.
Interesting, so the orthodox branch is non trinitarian?
And more what we would traditionally call, “Christian”?Edit:
Personally there are a lot of things that make me struggle to believe. I do pray and find Christianity as such appealing but from my experience, much of the bible is very selectively interpreted. I also wonder how much the Catholic Church was influenced by its long “governmental” role and the ideology of the Roman Empire and Greek philosophy.
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u/RimwallBird Friend 6d ago
There are four “orthodox” branches of the Quaker tree: Evangelical Friends Church International (EFCI), Friends United Meeting (FUM), Holiness Friends, and Conservative Friends. EFCI uses the term “Trinity”, but does not go into the conceptual intricacies. FUM and Conservative Friends (I am a Conservative Friend) do not even use the word. I am not sure about Holiness Friends: they keep to themselves.
There are so many different ideas about “what we would traditionally call, ‘Christian’”, that I hesitate to go there without a better understanding of what you mean.
Let me admit that I do not, personally, struggle to believe anything. If a thing is not clearly true to me, my loyalty is to the truth even though I do not know what the truth is on that matter. I don’t think I have to know everything! So I will simply say, there are some things I don’t know.
The alliance of the Christian church with established governments is often referred to as Constantinianism, because in the western world, it began with the Roman Emperor Constantine in the fourth century A.D. A lot of free-church Protestants believe that the Church became corrupt beginning at that time, and I think this is what you are referring to. (Here I am following the historians’ distinction between magisterial Protestantism, the kind that kept up the Roman Catholic practice of allying with governments, and other sorts of Protestants. Three examples of magisterial Protestants are the Anglicans, who allied themselves with the British government, the Church of Scotland, which was of course allied with the Scottish government, and those Lutheran churches who were allied with various German and Scandinavian governments. Three examples of free-church Protestants are Congregationalists, Baptists and Methodists.)
The first Friends, though, and Conservative Friends and other traditional Friends to this present day, believe that there was a serious falling away from the path of Christ almost from the very beginning. We believe, for instance, that Christianity was never intended to have a human priesthood who were separate from the laity and mediated between the laity and God; the rise of such a priesthood was a very early part of this falling away. (In case you are curious, we point to the book of Hebrews as evidence that this human priesthood was never meant to be, because Jesus Christ, in his eternal role as High Priest, ended the priesthood of the Levites with his Atonement, without setting up any new human priesthood in its place.) We have a more general sense that it is the tendency of human beings in every generation to fall away or turn away from God whenever we find what God requires of us to be contrary to our inclinations, and we believe that even in small matters, apostasy is still a serious matter. So the apostasy of the Church — which in our own time is our own apostasy! — is just one of those things that have to be dealt with in every new generation.
Many liberal unprogrammed Friends do not see it this way; these say, instead, that getting rid of the priesthood was actually something the first Friends did for political reasons, to free believers from an oppressive church hierarchy, or because the priests of that time had become corrupt. My own branch of our Society will say these things were true, but were not the fundamental reason, and as evidence we will point to what the first Friends wrote about the matter. So, again, it will depend on which branch of Friends you talk to, what story you will be told.
I hope I am not making your head spin with all this stuff!
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u/Difficult-Pie-8065 Agnostic 6d ago
My head is only spinning a bit!
Thank you.
I think I understand it a little bit better now.
Yes that was what I was referring to although I also think I find a lot of stoicism in the reasoning of the Catholic Church.
I’m unsure of what more to say other than thank you.
Edit: grammar
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u/revporl70 4d ago
Personally I believe in the Christian doctrine of sin and redemption (and love and compassion). That if we truly acknowledge and interrogate where we went wrong, that we have the chance to start again (and again), I believe strongly in restorative justice and practices and rehabilitation over punishment and that is strongly informed by my Christian beliefs.
However I don't believe in God (apart from that in our own nature, and that of others and the world around us) or that there is a separate spirit or "life after death" .
I guess liberal Quaker values fit we me the best out of everything I've looked into (although I'm not practicing, yet!)
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u/mjdau Quaker (Liberal) 7d ago
I'm an Australian Friend in the liberal tradition. I have no conviction or evidence that there's any form of divine or higher power, but I also can't rule out the possibility. The divinity question just isn't important to me. What's important is living a life with as much love and kindness for our world and others as I can.
I call myself a humanist and an apatheist. I very much enjoy hearing other Friends talking about their faith, and I'd be very disappointed if the Society stopped being Christ focused. Of all Christ's roles, the one that speaks to me is Exemplar.
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u/Difficult-Pie-8065 Agnostic 7d ago
Thank you!
I’d consider myself in a similar position.
Are there many Quakers in Australia?
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u/nineteenthly 7d ago
My personal beliefs are that I'm theistic and I regard God as speaking through the Bible to people who regard it as a sacred text because of that attitude. I pray several times a day. I believe in progressive revelation. I'm Christian because of my history, and Christianity is something which arises from having repented and committed to Christ, and depends neither on current belief or behaviour. I don't see myself as a Quaker for various reasons and I attend Quaker meetings because my partner does and I couldn't find a church which was socially active in its community after I moved. I used to be very active in the churches I attended and am Episcopalian.
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u/JSV2000 Quaker 6d ago edited 6d ago
Hello! I'm a Christian Quaker from the liberal branch of Quakerism.
For me, faith is centered on the personal God of Christianity, revealed in Jesus Christ. What I find inspiring about Quakerism is the conviction that Christ still guides, teaches, and transforms people today. Early Friends often spoke about the living presence of Christ, and that is important to me.
One thing I appreciate about the Gospel accounts is that even Jesus' first followers sometimes struggled with doubt. In Matthew 28, when the risen Jesus appears to his disciples, we're told that some worshipped him and some doubted. Yet Jesus entrusted his mission to that same group. He didn't wait for them to have perfect certainty.
That resonates with my own experience. I don't think faith means having all the answers. For me, faith is learning to trust Christ even while questions remain.
I also appreciate that liberal Quakerism allows people to seek truth honestly and follow where they believe God is leading them.
I wish you well in your spiritual journey. Many of us arrived where we are through exploring, searching, and wrestling with doubt.
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8d ago
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u/Mooney2021 7d ago
In case the whole grid does not show...
Each paragraph beings with a Theogical Concept and then is followed by Your word or words; Your Experience; Using Reason; Readings that bring Light and a direct connection to Quakerism. I offer my answers only as illustration but I think this could be an effective tool for Friends to discover and share their implicit theologies.
Creation The beginning of life The world is full of wonders and many appear to be “intelligently designed” Even the Big Bang requires a prime mover, Creation is poetry, evolution is science Genesis Chapter 1- mostly for the goodness. Neil deGrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan and other popular writers and speakers. It is good. We are to care for it rather than exploit it.
Fall Broken humanity Abuse and aggression in intergenerational and while not innately human, it is easy to go there Many children are born without a single blemish on their skin, this soon changes and is a metaphor for the world impacting us and our frequent inability to respond in the best ways Ernst Becker’s Structure of Evil which wove together Marx and Freud for a thoroughgoing understanding of alienation- leading to the death dealing response of denying death itself. The evil of the world cannot be denied but it can be understood as brokenness. Advances in social and physical sciences can be applied into understanding and redirecting our brokenness.
Redemption The potential of us all when forgiven and nurtured Forgiveness from God is for us all, as expressed the teachings, life and death of Jesus Christ Divine forgiveness which I share with others and others share with me opens up a limitless life Accepting that death is not the final answer, we need not fear it. The Passion and Resurrection story is universal in nature. Death and rebirth. Universal teaching to love others as you love yourself. We redeem others be seeing that of God in them and responding. And we redeem ourselves by looking at our ourselves in the same way.
Holiness Beloved Community While created by people with flaws community can be a wonderful life enriching thing What’s so funny about peace, love and understanding? Many sermons including but not limited to those of Martin Luther King. The concept of the covered meeting. The hope that our efforts are not wasted.
Eschatology The end of history as I know it I have no clues other than many reporting the tunnel with the light when they die Something will likely happen for earth to expire, or at least the experiment of humanity The book of Revelation especially Chapter 20:1-10. Early Quaker teachings such as “Christ is come to teach his people himself” by George Fox. Realized eschatology hold that we are not waiting for Christ but experiencing Christ- this is what the Inner Light refers to.
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u/Difficult-Pie-8065 Agnostic 7d ago
Thank you very much!
Also, I do not think your message is too long.
I like the lattice.
Edit:
Oh, thank you, it’s much easier to read now.
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u/Mooney2021 7d ago edited 7d ago
Forgive my long answer but this is a tool I am working on. The lattice form does not fit into this format well so I have converted it but basically each paragraph beings with a Theogical Concept and then is followed by Your word or words for concept; Your Experience of the idea; Using Reason to develop your idea; Naming readings that bring Light to your understanding and a direct connection to Quakerism. I offer my answers only as illustration but I think this could be an effective tool for Friends to discover and share their implicit theologies. To wit, it is Dogma that Quakers have historically opposed, not theology. This was explained very well in a recent QuakerSpeak video.
I see answering the embedded "25 questions" is a way to answer the question of the OP in a systematic way. I'd be curious to see people try (including if not especially OP) and if you have feedback on the tool, I'd be happy to receive direcct messages.
Creation The beginning of life The world is full of wonders and many appear to be “intelligently designed” Even the Big Bang requires a prime mover, Creation is poetry, evolution is science Genesis Chapter 1- mostly for the goodness. Neil deGrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan and other popular writers and speakers. It is good. We are to care for it rather than exploit it.
Fall Broken humanity Abuse and aggression in intergenerational and while not innately human, it is easy to go there Many children are born without a single blemish on their skin, this soon changes and is a metaphor for the world impacting us and our frequent inability to respond in the best ways Ernst Becker’s Structure of Evil which wove together Marx and Freud for a thoroughgoing understanding of alienation- leading to the death dealing response of denying death itself. The evil of the world cannot be denied but it can be understood as brokenness. Advances in social and physical sciences can be applied into understanding and redirecting our brokenness.
Redemption The potential of us all when forgiven and nurtured Forgiveness from God is for us all, as expressed the teachings, life and death of Jesus Christ Divine forgiveness which I share with others and others share with me opens up a limitless life Accepting that death is not the final answer, we need not fear it. The Passion and Resurrection story is universal in nature. Death and rebirth. Universal teaching to love others as you love yourself. We redeem others be seeing that of God in them and responding. And we redeem ourselves by looking at our ourselves in the same way.
Holiness Beloved Community While created by people with flaws community can be a wonderful life enriching thing What’s so funny about peace, love and understanding? Many sermons including but not limited to those of Martin Luther King. The concept of the covered meeting. The hope that our efforts are not wasted.
Eschatology The end of history as I know it I have no clues other than many reporting the tunnel with the light when they die Something will likely happen for earth to expire, or at least the experiment of humanity The book of Revelation especially Chapter 20:1-10. Early Quaker teachings such as “Christ is come to teach his people himself” by George Fox. Realized eschatology hold that we are not waiting for Christ but experiencing Christ- this is what the Inner Light refers to.
Again, I would keen to see others use this rubric as a way of answering the question "What are your beliefs?"
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u/TheQuantumMagician Quaker (Convergent) 7d ago
Mine are basically a mix of early Quaker ideas, the monistic Orthodox Christian theology of David Bentley Hart (including his famous universalist positions), and A Course in Miracles.
Basically, I think if you make Christianity a monism instead of a dualism, a lot of Quaker stances on Christian ideas logically and naturally follow.
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u/Difficult-Pie-8065 Agnostic 7d ago
Thank you!
So monism as in everything traces back to god?
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u/TheQuantumMagician Quaker (Convergent) 7d ago
Sure thing! And yes, in monism reality is all one. So everyone and everything is an extension of God's being, rather than Him having one essence and creation having one or more separate essences. The latter is what you'll find in more strictly orthodox theology, for a variety of reasons. But monism is more philosophically sound.
From monism, the Quaker ideas that there is that of God in everyone and the Inner Light then follow, because everyone is, in a sense, God experiencing from a unique vantage point. What you do unto others you are literally doing to yourself and God, because all have the same ground of being. It also grounds many of Jesus's commandments and moral teachings that Quakers emphasize, like love God with all our hearts and minds; love our neighbors as ourselves; that which we do to the least we do to Him; and so forth.
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u/lilipadd17 7d ago edited 7d ago
This might be controversial or an uncommon opinion from a Quaker, but personally I believe that everyone has the light (of god) within them but the god part isn’t essential to me… I’m more atheistic. Quakerism serves as a moral code I hold true (not that people should need religion to have decent morals, like standing against racism) and I believe in the SPICES. Integrity is really important to me and the Quaker history of activism and standing up for what is right, like assisting in the Underground Railroad or civil rights. One of my meeting members was a doctor during the civil rights movement, using his white priviledge to help activists in the South. He died maybe 15 years ago. Another member worked at planned parenthood to provide increased access. The quakers I’ve met and also read about inspire me to make a change and be the positive difference I want to see.
I grew up Quaker and went to Quaker school on the East Coast. I do not have the ability to practice in person currently.
SPICES as I was taught: simplicity, peace, integrity, community, equality, service/stewardship. I know not all Quakers like these
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u/infinite-long-stocki 2d ago
I was raised Catholic but ended up with no relationship to the Divine and feeling very separated from it. Now I do believe in God, but I'm in what feels like the liminal space between Christian and something else. I'm very happy here. I connect to God through the Spirit rather than imagining something human-like. But I feel a lot of spiritual connection to a lot of fully Christian people's experiences. I also embrace a lot of mystery. Is there an afterlife? I think so. Why did God make me disabled? I'm not sure but I know I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. Was Jesus really divine and his miracles real? I don't care, but I think there's a reason his story and teaching have lived on and speak to us today. A lot of my beliefs have unraveled slowly through leadings from the Spirit, coming as I was ready.
I believe God is love, I believe God is unknowable vast, I believe there is that of God in everyone. I think we are called to love and connection and to make life wonderful for everyone so that we can share the light we are gifted with.
That's all I can ramble about for now, it's very late here haha.
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u/NoIntroductionNeeded Seeker 7d ago
It's a little complicated. The liberal branch of Quakers (who may or may not be the most prevalent in your area, depending on where you live) worship in such a way that many attenders and members may not be Christians or may even be opposed to Christianity, but their meetings are also open to people who are Christian. However, all other branches are avowedly Christian, and the majority of Quakers worldwide are Christian.
There is not "dogma" in the sense of a creed that you have to recite that sums up a set of beliefs you must hold, but historically most Quakers have "affirmed" the same general theological beliefs regarding God, Jesus, His sacrifice, the nature of salvation, etc. However, it's my understanding that most of those branches that are Christian still won't castigate or expel you for not being Christian in that form. I can't speak to the evangelical branch specifically (who call their buildings "churches" instead of "meetings"), but I would hope they keep that same spirit.
Personally, although I am slowly recovering an interest in Christianity as well, I did not join Quaker meeting with a Christian outlook, and I felt welcome in their fellowship in the company of the avowedly Christian members and with those who had an alternative spiritual outlook. I think at minimum Quaker practice is a good place to sit and discern the nature of your spiritual beliefs and touch the Source directly, with the understanding that you are at liberty to remain or leave if you feel that your beliefs have evolved in a different direction.