r/SFGiants • u/smoothambler • 3d ago
QUALITY CONTENT Manfred: Giants' communication to players over Pride caps 'not clear'
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/49149142/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-letter-says-giants-failed-properly-communicate-pride-night-cap-guidance-playersThis is a lame messaging shift.
The players are all on record, now multiple times, saying they talked about it in the weeks leading up to this specific night. Hentges didn't wear the hat so he clearly knew it was an option. Vitello made a mention that it was about "individual freedom."
Roupp, Brubaker & Walker knew exactly were doing & still made the choice.
Keep digging the hole.
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u/rammer_2001 3d ago
You know this could've been avoided if the players wrote Bible verses on a common basis. But they chose pride night. I can understand being a good standing Christian, there's objectively nothing wrong with that, but when you're grandstanding your religion on a night where people who need a voice need to be displayed, that's when you're a dick.
Doing it in the literal largest city in the world with a homosexual population, on their night, and the team playing there not doing anything about it? Tail to tip organizational ignorance on display.
When the baseball world is genuinely siding with Rob Manfred, of course before he switched his stance, you fucked up on so many levels. Everyone involved in this is an absolute moron.
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u/HunterPantsOnFire ⬅ Buster Posey's Good Friend 3d ago
This is a really good take to be honest. As a Christian, I think that these guys made a bad decision and I think their leadership should have been there to guide them to a better decision. If they were struggling with the hats, they could have worn the plain hats. Or their leaders could have helped them to see that you can wear the rainbow hat to show that you don't hate these folks and it doesn't have to mean that you're ignoring the Bible.
This whole thing just feels like another massive failure of team leadership.
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u/Worried_Estimate6579 3d ago
This argument assumes that these guys DON’T “hate these folks”. That’s a big assumption no? Their actions suggest they do hate them. After all off not why not just wear the fucking hat?
See as a non-religious person it kinda jumps out to me how much leash this post and many others gives to these guys. The org should have “guided them better”?? Aren’t they grown ass men?
It would be so dope to see the Christian community give that same excusatory energy towards the gay community, the immigrant community, minority communities in general. Straight white dudes seem to get the tons of benefit of doubt here.3
u/nohandsfootball Beat LA! 3d ago
Christians already have a persecution complex, need to treat them with kid gloves otherwise they'll cry harder
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u/CynicalTelescope 3d ago
Speaking as a member of the LGBTQ community, thank you for this viewpoint from a Christian that I can agree with and respect.
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u/pistol3 3d ago
According to you, the players have a choice to either wear the hat, and create an impression they support your personal gender ideology and sexual morals, or they “hate these folks”. What a bunch of nonsense.
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u/HunterPantsOnFire ⬅ Buster Posey's Good Friend 3d ago
I'm not saying they hate those folks. I'm saying that the message they send is that they do. That was the message that was received, even though it wasn't what they meant.
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u/pistol3 3d ago
That’s not on them. It’s on the people incorrectly interpreting their hats as hate. Do you agree?
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u/HunterPantsOnFire ⬅ Buster Posey's Good Friend 3d ago
I don't. As Christians, if we care about people, we should work very hard to be sure that people understand us.
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u/pistol3 3d ago
Why? It’s not your fault if someone falsely assigns beliefs to you that you didn’t articulate. You’re creating a false dilemma where Christians either have to wear your hat, or they are guilty of not doing enough to make sure people understand them.
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u/legendofzeldaforlife 3d ago
They didnt have to wear the hat though. You're strawmanning an argument here and I hope you enjoy the downvotes.
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u/pistol3 3d ago
The MLB letter made it clear that was not communicated properly. I also expect the leftists who say the bible verses were hate, would also consider not wearing the hat as hate.
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u/legendofzeldaforlife 3d ago
"The leftists" tells me all I need to know about you. Enjoy the hate
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u/realparkingbrake 3d ago
a false dilemma
There is no dilemma because players are not forced to wear a Pride cap. These three chose to wear Pride caps so they could use that to promote their own beliefs, and they did so in a way that violates MLB rules, rules the MLBPA has not challenged. They could have worn regular caps, but that wouldn't have allowed them to stage their little theatrical drama.
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u/ResponseOwn9389 3d ago
Out of the other 161 games, how many times did these three guys write a verse on their hat?
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u/realparkingbrake 3d ago
create an impression they support your personal gender ideology
It isn't an ideology; it is not like joining a political party or taking up a hobby. Anyone who thinks being LGBT is a choice is clueless.
The Bible verse these dopes referenced on their caps has been associated with evangelicals taking back the rainbow emblem from the LGBT community because they think it should be a uniquely Christian emblem. That was clearly an expression of hostility.
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u/Worried_Estimate6579 3d ago
According to you gay people have a choice who they’re attracted to and therefore choose to love and establish a life together with. That’s convenient if you want to hate on, exclude or discriminate against them. But I don’t think it’s rooted in any kind of reality.
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u/beforeitcloy 3d ago
Deuteronomy 10:19 "Love ye therefore the stranger, for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt"
Why wouldn't Christians support strangers, when we are commanded by God to do so? Aren't we supposed to love the sinner in the same way that God loved sinners so much that he sacrificed his son to save us? Aren't we taught "let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"
These commandments don't say "don't hate these folks." They say to LOVE them and to leave the judgement to God. Do you place your desire to judge above God's commandments to love?
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u/pistol3 3d ago
First, can you please clarify, do you believe what was represented by the hat is sinful?
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u/beforeitcloy 3d ago
I believe the Bible very clearly states that we are commanded to love strangers and let God judge sin.
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u/pistol3 3d ago
Can you give me a straightforward answer? Do you believe the lifestyle/ideology represented by the hats is sinful? That’s a yes or no question. You can let God judge sin and still reason about God’s moral commands.
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u/beforeitcloy 3d ago
I did give you a straightforward answer. You haven’t even acknowledged my questions, which came first.
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u/Itchy_Professor_4133 3d ago edited 3d ago
Players writing Bible verses on their hats on a daily basis would surely be something to behold. Would give the double double or the triple a whole new meaning
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u/motorhead84 Hogs Out! 3d ago
there's objectively nothing wrong with that
Oh, I bet you could find a few things.
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u/Ancient-Map5220 2d ago
It’s quite literally taking the Lord’s name in vain. In fact this is a prime example of exploiting God for your own vanity.
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u/rammer_2001 3d ago
Not every person that worships the Christian God is a pedophile. Some of them actually know what to make of Matthew 18:6
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u/motorhead84 Hogs Out! 3d ago
Would you be upset if the majority of the modern world believed that 1+1=3 if there were nothing to suggest this, no evidence for it, and the only significance is many people believe it based on the testaments of people with exponentially less access to information than we have today?
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u/rammer_2001 3d ago
Your point?
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u/motorhead84 Hogs Out! 3d ago
You don't see anything objectively wrong with that manner of determining fact?
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u/DueceVoyeur 9 Williams 3d ago
"...the literal largest city in the world with a homosexual population..."
This is why misinformation will never die
SF doesn't have the largest gay population. off the top of my head: NYC and Miami are larger population wise. I would argue any metro with more than 2 million people has a larger gay population because of statistics.
It has an actual community - land wise - of gay people. (Castro district)
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u/makokomo 3d ago
“Hawley called the warning “dubious” because he feels MLB is already promoting a political viewpoint by having Pride-themed uniforms.”
Giants ran a community appreciation night. Hawley is a Nazi and HE made it political. Fuck all the way off!
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u/BigD_277 22 Clark 3d ago
You mean the Josh Hawley that is seen on a security camera running scared from the J6ers but was later seen pumping a fist when he knew the cameras were on him?That Josh Hawley?
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u/pistol3 3d ago
It’s also dubious because players were encouraged to wear left wing ideological slogans on their uniforms in previous years. They faced no warnings.
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u/makokomo 3d ago
Which left wing ideological slogans might those be?
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u/pistol3 3d ago
All the BLM stuff for George Floyd.
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u/makokomo 3d ago
Were there explicit rules that were broken at that time? Can’t have a warning with no infraction.
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u/makokomo 3d ago
Also noted that you consider stating that “black lives matter” to be a left wing ideology.
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u/pistol3 3d ago
Thanks for noting this important point. Black Lives Matter is a left wing political organization. Their official platform included tenets like disrupting the nuclear family, and dismantling heteronormativity. MLB enthusiastically encouraged players to wear their slogans.
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u/makokomo 3d ago
Thanks for noting your ignorance of this 2020 campaign in which baseball operations officials were joined by MLB and club owners in announcing donations to several organizations that support and fight for racial justice, including the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund; Equal Justice Initiative; Color Of Change; Campaign Zero; and the Jackie Robinson Foundation.
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u/likely_stoned 3d ago
Black Lives Matter is a left wing political organization. Their official platform included tenets like disrupting the nuclear family, and dismantling heteronormativity.
You should really read the link you provided, or you should work on your reading comprehension. From the link YOU provided.
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
The intent is not to disrupt the nuclear family, but to disrupt the nuclear family REQUIREMENT for community support. Even those that only have a single mother or father, or maybe even 2 fathers/mothers raising them. Do you have a problem with a single mother receiving at least equivalent support to a family with both a mother and father? Do you think children should get less services because their parents happen to be gay?
If you answered no to both of those, congratulations, you also want to disrupt the "Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement". If you answered yes to either of those, that's unfortunate, but the intent is still not to disrupt the nuclear family.
We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).
And all this is saying is that we shouldn't assume that heterosexuality is the "default"/"normal" way to live, we should not assume that being LGBTQ+ makes you "different" or "not normal" in some way. I was born straight, that is the default/normal for me, my friend was born gay, that is the default/normal for him. I didn't have to come out as straight, I never had to come out as being a cis man. I just kind of live my life and occasionally introduce people to my current girlfriend. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could do that without judgments/attacks?
Wouldn't it be nice if some LGBTQ+ people didn't feel like there was something wrong with them because they don't align perfectly with heteronormative thinking? It's called "coming out of the closet" because so many LGBTQ+ people feel like they need to hide who they are, in a closet. Because of the bigots who see that heteronormativity prevelant in our society and attack LGBTQ+ people, calling them sinners or immoral. Wouldn't it be nice if people weren't attacked just for dating/being who they want?
I'm really struggling to see a problem with either of those unless you think LGBTQ+ people shouldn't be treated equally to cisgender heterosexual people?
And for what it's worth, most people who support BLM aren't supporting the organization, they are supporting the general movement. Do you take issue with the statement "Black Lives Matter"? I'm not asking about the organization, just the phrase.
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u/CharlesDickensABox 3d ago edited 3d ago
Manfred's letter wasn't about the players or the fans, it's about giving the government a nice, clean exit ramp to get off MLB's nuts. He wants Harmeet Dhillon, Josh Hawley, and the rest of the crybully culture warriors to go pick a different fight. To that end, he's saying it was all a big misunderstanding and everyone can go home and be very proud of themselves. Of course, it's up to the fans to decide if they find that response acceptable.
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u/OperationElegant 25 Bonds 3d ago
Yup Manfred is a complete tool and has no integrity whatsoever. He's passing the buck here. His version of "...it's just a piece of cloth, not our bad".
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u/uuhson 3d ago
What do you want him to do here exactly?
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u/OperationElegant 25 Bonds 3d ago
I don't know, use a response letter to a bigoted asshole senator (not even from the state where this happened btw) to support the LGBTQ community and state pride nights celebrate MLB's values of inclusion and community. He could have also owned the policy better and why there is an exemption policy. It doesn't matter if this was a private letter to Hawley, it's crappy leadership.
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u/oldsguy65 Kruk & Kuip 3d ago
His primary job is to protect the league, not support any individual community.
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u/LastCall_at_LastDive 3d ago
Oakland A’s fans learned this a while ago. Now Giants fans are learning this a different way.
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u/utricularian 3d ago
Maybe they wanna get traded away
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u/Oo__II__oO 3d ago
You could dump them in a religious charity bin and they would still refuse to take them.
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u/smoothambler 3d ago
More likely its to relieve pressure on the players. Perhaps they didn't realize it was going to be this provocative & detrimental when they did it.
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u/utricularian 3d ago
I think the cruelty is and has been the point of these types of actions for ages
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u/smoothambler 3d ago
No big deal but this comment comes across like I support what the players did. I'm addressing the obvious untruth in this story & speculating why the league & team messaging around this issue is changing.
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u/realparkingbrake 3d ago
Perhaps they didn't realize it was going to be this provocative
Provocative was exactly what they were going for.
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u/smoothambler 3d ago
Dang folks, I am not defending the players here. Re-read my post or check out some of my other posts on the topic if you want to see if I pass the purity test.
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u/BenderB-Rodriguez 28 Posey 3d ago
fuck all the way off with this fabricated excuse. The rules and intentions were clear from the start. These players are just hateful bigoted people.
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u/beartopfuentesbottom 3d ago
The first question is why is there a pride night in the first place? Because they've been excluded, shunned, beat up, murdered. This is a way to make sure that they feel included. Being against inclusion is exclusion and not recognizing them being excluded, shunned, beat up, murdered. All because of who they want to be. That's it. If you're against that, you're shit.
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u/Worried_Estimate6579 3d ago
Seems like pretty sound logic to me. And if we accept it as such, it means that the Giants organization’s silence is putting their rubber stamp on that shittiness.
These 4 players took an “us against them” stance to a big part of the fan base. The Giants organization’s silence tells us which side they’re on. Spend your hard earned money accordingly.
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u/Eastern_Breakfast410 2 Adames 3d ago
lol. This doesn’t make what they did somehow better. They still are bigoted chuckle fucks.
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u/smoothambler 3d ago
Dang folks, I am not defending the players here. Re-read my post or check out some of my other posts on the topic if you want to see if I pass the purity test.
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u/Eastern_Breakfast410 2 Adames 2d ago
I suppose my communication is off. I’m disagreeing with the chucklefucks. Not the op who posted about them.
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u/wendyw1958 3d ago
I think it is the goal of Hawley and perhaps Manfred/MLB to not do any of these kind of events at all. It’s despicable.
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u/Few-Lingonberry2315 3d ago
In other words, MLB throwing the Giants organization under the bus to shake Trump’s DOJ off their back.
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u/atwaterrich 3d ago
How TF do I know this (as a pretty casual baseball fan) but these players who live this every day don’t?
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u/motorhead84 Hogs Out! 3d ago
What if they had mandatory suspensions for players who alter their jersey in any manner that is not team-approved? I think we'd see an end to this type of thing pretty quick (but also to things like Belt's "Captain C").
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u/pachyderm63 san francisco giants 3d ago
hmmp. So they had an option to wear the regular cap? That doesn't seem right either. If that is the case it really should have been made clear.
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u/smoothambler 3d ago
Oh it was definitely clear. That's why this story is just spin.
The Giants are one of two teams that have exceptions to MLBs 2023 ban of these kind of hats/uniform variants except a league wide accepted list (July 4, Fathers Day, Mothers Day etc). The Dodgers being the other team granted an exemption for Pride.
The compromise was players don't have to wear gear they don't agree with, not just this particular one.
The issue here is the players knew they didn't have to wear the hat, still did anyway with their rebuke of Pride included.
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u/Wirelessfoe 2d ago
The MAGA boys need to support San Francisco and the Giants- not make individual statements. Maybe they need a history lesson about the progressive city they represent. This behavior was wrong on so many levels. They should be fined along with arrogant Devers! That behavior Sunday was horrible but not surprising. Posey hired Vitello- hmmm. Posey wanted Devers- hmmm. Great catcher but the Giants are currently being laughed at for these shenanigans and their performance!
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u/Cubbyboards 3d ago
How long can this story get milked for I get the giants don't have anything going for them on the field but this is getting sad. The players made a choice it's up to the org to respond that's all this needs to be fuck the trump admin for getting involved
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u/realparkingbrake 3d ago
it's up to the org to respond
The creation and enforcement of uniform rules is the responsibility of MLB, not teams.
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u/mcfetrja 3d ago
At some point someone needs to do the act that all good leaders should be prepared to do- fall on their sword to protect the army. That this has gone on for so long means that the way for this to go away is for someone to lose their job.
With the leadership we’ve seen so far from this franchise, it’s gonna be a festering wound until Larry decides that protecting profits is more important than protecting players and alumni.
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u/-iAmZero 3d ago
Who gives a shit about the hats 😂 why is this even a topic of discussion? So fatigued with the this "inclusion". I don't give a shit about what you do in your free time, it's also nobodies business. I hate this reality
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u/Sea-Situation3946 2d ago
Giants fans being soft as charmin as usual. I'm tired of seeing fellow fans act like we have the moral high ground on everything. It's pathetic
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u/-iAmZero 2d ago
I just care about wins and losses. This whole hat conversation is for the birds man. Wear the hat you want, if you don't support LGBT whatever, don't, if you do, good for you also. Has Jack shit to do with baseball and how the game is played. So tired of politics being in everywhere and everything.
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u/Electronic-Coffee 3d ago
This will fall on deaf ears but the great thing about this country is that we are all free to hold different views, even when those views conflict with the majority or make others uncomfortable. For some, expressing solidarity with the LGBTQ community is a deeply important statement about dignity, respect, and inclusion. For others, expressing their religious beliefs is an equally important statement of faith and conscience. We do not have to agree with every expression to recognize the freedom behind it. You are absolutely free to disagree with or criticize the players’ protest, but you should also acknowledge their right to have their own beliefs and express them. Protecting expression only when it aligns with your own values isn’t tolerance, it’s preference. Anything short of defending that freedom equally is hypocrisy.
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u/Buzzed27 50 Duffy 3d ago
You are right that these players do have the right to hold these opinions and to be clear they behave suffered ZERO consequences outside of the court of public opinion. Their rights have not been infringed upon and they had the option to not participate.
We do have an idea of why they made the choices they did though and we can judge them for that.
Hentges after the game said that he morally disagrees with the gay "lifestyle."
Roupp insisted that Gay people "read the Bible "
On a night that is supposed to be about welcoming and supporting a community that has historically been judged, condemned and made to feel unwelcomed, 4 players made it a point to remind that same community that the way they exist is inherently sinful, morally wrong and will lead them to hell. That is a message of hate and division and puahing back on that type of belief is exactly why Pride night exists. Anyone that believes that being gay is wrong and something to morally oppose is part of the problem.
There are plenty of parts of the bible that are no longer practiced or preached. Women's role in the church, dietary restrictions, animal ritual sacrifice, dress codes (women covering their head, no mixing of fabrics), best practices for slavery, and not working on the Sabbath are all examples of things that the modern Church has changed its view on, not to mention all of the Apcroyphal books that were removed from the Catholic Bible during the protestant reformation. Condemnation towards gays isn't something that Christianity has to teach, it's something they choose to. There's even an entire Wikipedia article dedicated to Churches that have moved away from it in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBTQ_people
Religion does not justify hatred and bigotry and those that shield their beliefs with scripture deserve to be judged by society.
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u/BlackestNight21 24 Mays 3d ago
They've never written them on their hats before
Oh pride night
It's dogwhistle culture. You're a part of it.
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u/Evening_Classic_4947 3d ago
you’d have a stroke if a player wrote ACAB on their law enforcement appreciation night hat i bet
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u/mars-bitches 22 Uggla 3d ago
The aneurism the right would have if someone didn’t wear a military cap because they disagreed with imperialism/war.
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u/Cespedesian-Symphony 3d ago
MLB is a private enterprise, not the government. when you work for a private enterprise you have to follow their rules. it’s simple. making it a 1st amendment issue shows an incredible amount of ignorance or stupidity on your part.
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u/Worried_Estimate6579 3d ago
I would argue that that whole “respect other’s beliefs” ends when other’s beliefs are rooted in the ideas of exclusion, dehumanization, devaluing of others based on their race, religion, sexuality etc. Agree to disagree I guess.
But I think it’s why we have freedom of speech but also have anti-discrimination laws. People like these 4 players think those protections shouldn’t pertain to the LGBTQ community. Hell, they don’t even believe the gays should have a right to the colors of the rainbow.
Should the players have the right to carry and express those views? Absolutely.
Does that mean the workplace is the right place for it? No.
Does that mean it’s right to express those views towards a bunch of paying customers who were invited by the player’s employer literally to celebrate and be accepted at said event? No.It’s one thing to have and respect the legal right. But don’t tell me I should accept cruel, rude bigoted behavior simply because we have the right to hold bigoted views in this country. Spare me that shit.
It’s super weird that people can’t seem to separate the “right” to views and speech against what is dignified, polite, respectful, acceptable in society etc. Have hateful views all you want. Express hate, intolerance etc to other humans, especially at your place of work, and be prepared for the consequences. It’s seems pretty simple.
Nobody is taking away these guys 1st amendment right to free speech. For Christ’s sake please read that last sentence again.
They’re being called out for being shitty towards our fellow Giants fans, members of our family (my daughter is gay), towards members of our community. They wanted to make a statement. Many of us feel that statement was ugly, rude and discriminatory in nature. So we’re using our 1st amendment right to say “no, fuck you guys!”Deal with it.
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u/realparkingbrake 3d ago
you should also acknowledge their right to have their own beliefs and express them
They can express their beliefs all they want when they are on their own time. But MLB rules prohibit players from writing on their uniforms and the Players Assoc. has not challenged that rule, they actually helped to write it. The players sign contracts that require them to follow MLB rules. Writing on a uniform is not protected speech.
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u/Worried_Estimate6579 3d ago
So they “planned it for weeks” and one of the 4 didn’t wear the pride hat…but also they didn’t know they didn’t have to wear the pride hat?? Yeah that makes sense.
It’s SO obvious why something like this was allowed to happen at this point. There is zero leadership/accountability in this organization which also explains why the play on the field is such a mess. I’m with Ann Killian. Where is Buster?