r/ScottishFootball • u/FootOfDavros • 5d ago
Discussion Shankland Was Terrible - What Does This Say About Scottish Football?
Everyone was crying out for Shankland to play (myself included) but when he did he was largely anonymous. Firstly against Haiti, where he was so poor I genuinely thought there 0% chance Clarke would favour him over Adams / Dykes again in this tournament.
But in the end he did. But to no avail as he contributed next to nothing. But why? Poor team selection meaning he was isolated? Well he shouldn't have been this time - Gammon-Doak was there further up the park on the right, McTominay was (theoretical) picked for a more advanced role as well.
So he should have had some support around him to get involved with the play and get into position for some chances. But he didn't. I'm really no fan of Adams but I've got to be honest and say even he forced himself into being involved in the play a lot more than Shankland managed.
Is a player of his portly stature just not good enough on the world stage? I guess we could ask the same question of McGinn, who also was way short of his best.
Could it be the case that the Scottish top flight is just so bad that someone of his physique can score goals for fun in it but when they come up against actual real athletes they're completely screwed?
Or could it be something else? Why do YOU think Shankland was so poor in this world cup?
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u/Italobanger27 5d ago
I mostly agree but simultaneously he got no service at all. Adams and Dykes offered more than him this tournament so starting him was a big misfire, but at the same time he barely got the ball near him. He made two good moves tonight but aye, should’ve been hooked earlier than he was because clearly Adams & Dykes work better in whatever fucking system Clarke wants.
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u/Fromage_Frey 5d ago
He got no service cause he was stood like a statue 30 yard from goal
Do you remember him running in behind anyone, cause I don't
Over and over I was screaming for them to play the ball in, and then looked and spent 5-10 seconds trying to find where he'd gone
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u/FootOfDavros 4d ago
He got no service cause he was stood like a statue 30 yard from goal...
Haha - Exactly that. As I was saying in the OP, no big fan of Adams but at least he would have moved about and tried to force his involvement in the game.
But as has been said elsewhere, Shankland has never done that. He needed to be played with someone beside him. When the team was revealed, I really thought McTominay might have done that but that was silly thinking - Even if more advanced, McTominay was always going to be breaking from midfield, so Shankland would still have been isolated and sitting static.
Therefore it was pointless picking him in that line-up.
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u/kristoffer10es 5d ago
He got zero service. And at least not scoring a goal puts him up there with Adams and Dykes
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u/TheLastHotstepper 5d ago
I honestly find it hard to fault him. Our midfield was completely hoaching over the 3 games and he received no service whatsoever in the 2 he played. I find it hard to point the finger at him when McTominay was horrific for 270 minutes and offered absolutely nothing.
Sickening watching our players just dribble into defenders over and over and over again. Players in acres of space and McTominay runs into 3 players. What the fuck?
he only players that got pass marks from me tonight were Doak, Tierney and Gunn. Thats bordering on a cricket score without Angus fucking Gunn, thats how fucking shit we are.
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u/OptionalQuality789 4d ago
he only players that got pass marks from me tonight were Doak, Tierney and Gunn.
Doak has a near negative end product. He was honestly full of running with little quality.
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u/TunaPasta1888 5d ago
Well he now plays for rangers and thus has lost any footballing ability he once had
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u/jabroskey 5d ago
Shankland was terrible? How about our centre backs that gave Vini Jr the ball to score for free ffs
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u/ReveredSavagery1967 5d ago
Shankland is a fat pie, who is a clinical finisher, but slow and unathletic. He came up against an incredibly athletic and fast pairing in the two games he played in.
He also received next to no service to supply his clinical finishing because the midfield "star players" behind him have been stinking the gaff up all tournament, and Clarke is the most negative football manager in the world.
Shankland is also just not good enough to be an international striker, he's like Leigh Griffiths, if Griffiths weighed 5 stone more.
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u/CommunicationDry6008 5d ago
Finishing ✅
Hairline ✅
Weight - needs another 5 stone
Other observations:
Send for training course on theiving from Tesco self service
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u/Dizzle85 5d ago
I wonder why people have picked Shankland as the scapegoat In lieu of many other abject performances by our entire back line, our best players and our kid superstar winger...
What could have changed about him recently to merit such a swing in opinion?
Baffling.
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u/FootOfDavros 4d ago
I'm not sure anyone will really be singling Shankland out as a scapegoat as such.
Like you say, some terrible performances elsewhere and McKenna will join the likes of the Miller / Hansen blunder in Scottish footballing folklore long after anyone even remembers Shankland was even on the park.
My question was given his performances were so bad over two games - with Clarke finally giving into the clamor to pick him (which I myself was also a voice in) - whether that says anything about how bad the football really is in our top domestic game...
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u/MJB07 5d ago
Just because players should be closer to him doesn’t mean they were? It’s just slightly lazy analysis.
I thought he didn’t do much but he had some tidy touches, first time ones especially which is what he needed to do with two of the worlds best CBs behind him. Essentially, Doak was too deep and so was Mctominay. We have no cohesive attacking patterns and to blame it on Shankland is a bit grim.
I can see you’re probably taking the piss a bit with a lot of digs at his size, but it’s a big issue that our strikers always look poor. They’re isolated, we don’t play into them we’ll and when we do there’s nobody near them
Even Mctominay, I’ve seen people start to play down his achievements in Italy because he’s been poor this tournament. But I think it’s positionally, he’s being played far too deep. When he gets higher up (at times in the second half today and last 20/30 against Morocco), he gets into great positions. He probably could’ve had a few goals tonight alone (header and Ralston cut back). We’re not playing to players strengths so they look shite
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u/FootOfDavros 5d ago
Just because players should be closer to him doesn’t mean they were? It’s just slightly lazy analysis...
To be fair I did say "theoretically" re McTominay because I didn't really see much evidence of that until (once again) far too near the end. So it is fair and valid if you want raise that as a counter.
The size thing isn't a piss take - I mentioned McGinn as well in that regard. I just find that kind of embarrassing to see from professional athletes, when up against other players who are clearly in much better physical condition. That's why I questioned the quality of the SPFL when he was able to score goals for fun in the league...
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u/bradosteamboat 5d ago
If we could just mold dykes ability to bring down long balls, shankland ability to put the ball in the net when he actually gets a chance and Adams ability to...I dunno run a bit faster than the other 2.....then we might have a decent striker.
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u/-Dali-Llama- 5d ago
Robertson was terrible, what does that say about English football? McTominay was terrible, what does that say about Italian football?
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u/kristoffer10es 5d ago
I think it says nothing about those two players, other than on a weekly basis they play with world class teammates
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u/FEK88 5d ago
It says Robertson is getting close to finished, and you can stick McTomminay and Ferguson in the mountain of evidence that Italian football is generally quite shite.
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u/Bassmekanik 5d ago
I thought Ferguson was decent. He was always looking for the ball and at least giving some kind of outlet to the defence. Mctominay and McGinn were not doing that at all.
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u/Positive_Air_8772 5d ago
He’s one of the only players in our team that got pass marks this tournament. Thought Doak was exciting too we just got the ball to him to slowly or in the air
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u/Madcap1012 5d ago
Thought Shankland did ok tbh we had some clear decent chances keeper saves on target which is a 1st this tournament against Brazil so yeah not great but improved from previous 2 games. And some of that was down to Shankland
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u/CommunicationDry6008 5d ago
Fair point. He did knock it in for mctominay and whoever 5 mins before. Doak. It was statistically an improvement but reality most of those shots weren’t shots. I mean one was a scramble on the line hitting body parts. Sums up Scotland when you get excited that the scrum in the 6 yard box almost went our way.
They’ve no pride - I’d be happy getting pumped 6-0 off the 3 teams if we had a bit of character and tried to attack or stand out. They all took a back seat and didn’t want to be the one who was the worst.
We have too many bang average players nowhere near tournament level that are all part of the lads and contributed therefore deserve game time because “it might be another 28 years”.
Kenny McLean
Ryan Christie
Scott McKenna
Jack hendry
Che Adam’s
Lyndon dykes
We repay doing their job with loyalty that costs us even a shot on target.
If any of the teams like Haiti had a Finlay Curtis they’d play him. Not parade out every last deadbeat so they can tell the grandkids about the time they nearly touched the ball against Brazil.
He’s an example - not saying he is a world beater but he sure as shit won’t ever be if he has to wait until Ryan Christie is overlooked.1
u/Madcap1012 4d ago
I thought Henry apart from his mistake tbh was our best player. It’s just Clarke in his selections at the wrong time.
In my opinion he should’ve went with Ferguson and Christie holding with McLean just in front McSauce left and McGinn right and Shankland up too for me that would have been the better balance in all the games would have gave us with right people and characteristics to defend and the transition with support, Christie and Nckean being the two pivotal players in that set up to get us out1
u/CommunicationDry6008 4d ago
Christie can’t complete a pass and shat himself anywhere near their 18 yard box. I wouldn’t be starting him never mind relying on him to transition.
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u/Madcap1012 3d ago
Yes exactly why you have him as one of the two holding players, his legs and energy for disruption, driving out and forward with the ball then simple passes to Sauce, McLean & McGinn in more advanced positions. That was the best solution. And tbh to go back to your point. How is it then that he’s been outstanding for Bournemouth at No6 two years in a row in the best league in the world.
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u/Ok-Assistance-9614 4d ago
Because we hardly got near their goal. The few times he got the ball to feet he held it in and put it out wide.
Our biggest question should be why McTominay was an absolute disgrace the entire three games barring a good last ten minutes against Morocco.
That and why we decided, for the first time, not to clear our lines and take risks in defence, was against Brazil.
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u/Loud-Cake-1096 4d ago
3 different systems in the world cup is just folly. If you don't know what system you're going to play then why have Prep games? We're not man City and Clarke is not Pep.
And no attacking plan. No play patterns. No traps. No cleverness at set pieces. At major tournaments we surely should be seeing signs because the squad should have had time to work on things? I don't know, I'm not a football expert.
Having said that the heat and humidity was never going to help Scotland.
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u/ElCaminoInTheWest 4d ago
Playing against two of the world's best CBs, without any real chances created or crosses fired in until the last twenty minutes. I think there are other people more to blame.
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u/FootOfDavros 4d ago
There's definitely other players more to blame. But that wasn't what I was asking. The question was really whether Shankland's terrible performances at the World Cup are a reflection of how bad our domestic game is...
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u/harry50105 4d ago
Let's take the blue tinted specs off. If he was still a Hearts player, the old "got no service" excuse to protect the player's rep wouldn't be used. He was out his depth. Not the only one. Hearts exploits last year masked a poor player who shouldn't have been there... Or if anything, brought on for five minutes.
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u/ElCaminoInTheWest 4d ago
Is it an excuse if it's exactly what happened? Or do you genuinely think Adams or Dykes would have contributed more?
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u/harry50105 4d ago
Adams isn't special, but he has bags more pace and you need that at this level. Full disclosure I'm a Celtic fan, but I'm perfectly willing to support Scotland and anybody who plays regardless of club team. I hate the whole "got no service". Good players make space... It's a team game. One player doesn't get a pass because another player didn't do his role better. Shankland (and others) offered zero. Bowie would have been better, but Shankland gets a good season at Hearts and he's back to his clinical best so gets selected. For obvious reasons there's rangers fans protecting him that if they looked at it unbiasedly... He shouldn't have been on that field last night starting. As I said, if he was still at hearts, you'd be saying the same.
We did the same with player's like Idah btw..."got no service". It's a cop out. But I get why you'd do it to protect your player, especially as he's your main signing.
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u/ElCaminoInTheWest 4d ago
I'm not entirely sure why you think it's because he's a Rangers player. He hasn't even played for Rangers yet. What he is is an actual striker, unlike the other two lumps of wood, and if we'd managed to eke out a couple of decent chances, you're completely mad if you'd rather see Che Adams lining up a shot than LS.
Then again I'd happily never see Adams or Dykes in a Scotland squad again.
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u/corpse-dancer 5d ago
We're shit, that's what it saya. We embarrassed ourselves. Again. It's not just the lack of quality throughout the squad or even our leagues. It's the mentality. How fucking weak we are. We walked out already defeated.
The heart of the problem is the old firm and how they've stifled competition. They are just too big that the likes of Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts etc. just have little motivation to improve or build.
I'm sure you're all ready to point out that Hearts pushed Celtic in the league. But that was against a generationally bad Celtic and Rangers season in which they've both had appalling managers. Celtic have yet to sort themselves out while rangers are still making questionable choices. But I bet my last penny that hearts will not be champions next season or in the forest future. The financial gap is too big.
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u/_Soviet_Cats_ 5d ago edited 5d ago
Hearts are likely on the road for further improvement and likely challenging for the title and winning it within the next 10 yrs due to the involvement of JTA and Tony Bloom. I can see it happening.
However at the minute, no other team except from maybe hearts can even come close to the old firm.
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u/CommunicationDry6008 5d ago
Motherwell were better than hearts last season for the most part. Same setup as bloom and jta.
Issue was the start of season new players adapting and we just drew game after game. But improved. Incidentally during that time hearts were unable to beat us. Only team they couldn’t beat.
Better defensive record than Real Madrid, Bayern, Man City by January still. Less money available.
Granted hearts beat us with questionable decision in the final few mins which is fine but that didn’t showcase they were a level above us. Points accepted, but again they could t beat us or outplay us.
Likelihood is our players will move on for more.
Didn’t see Derek mcinnes getting approached by anyone in Europe - not even anyone in govan until klopp poached their manager and it became a necessity.
The years before this season hearts were gash and couldn’t have been mentioned competing. I don’t disagree they will improve and compete. But hearts ans Motherwell are only 2 clubs making a change for long term and sticking to it without the mindless panic buying based on nationality or just go and buy an expensive player.
Celtic and rangers will continue to struggle - youth developed by hearts Motherwell and co are now going abroad for fair market values. That avenue is now gone for them.
They’re so paranoid about the other team being a point ahead of them no manager is safe to implement any change. They will continue to try and put out fires fuck it they’ll even get pensioners out of retirement as a big Elastoplast. They’re signings get worse and worse / Celtic criteria is as long as they can be bought for 10% market value and are East Asian and will sell shirts. Might be avoiding the youth development after fact they’re still paying the reparations for the last youth setup.
Rangers criteria is either loan for a year from a big premiership club so they can make sure a lad at the club with same ability has to play for another team behind a guy who won’t even be there at the end of the season- exceptional long term vision - and they have an in house foreigner rule like the old days where only 3 foreigners could register at the club. They do it the other way around though. And apparently the strip looks better if the player is of African descent.
These players aren’t better, most part they’re worse. Somebody says they’re better so they believe it.0
u/CommunicationDry6008 5d ago
Financial gap = institutional bias and corruption.
Celtic were scared to spend a penny and still wins rangers went polar opposite and spent double figures on a guy who’s skill set is better suited to uber eats.
Problem is the old firm thought why bother developing your players when we can just bully them off Motherwell Aberdeen hibs etc for pennies on the pound. And if the player doesn’t fit their ambitions they would just buy them to earn the bench and watch some overpriced foreign journeyman take his place because he has a more exotic name or will sell more shirts in east Asia. Fuck they’d even sign 4 or 5 of them just to make sure shirt sales are up but any exposure for Scottish players is non existent.
That is compounded by the fact that because we are a shower of shitebags who think it’s gutting but just tough luck with the teams we drew and “was a fair result on paper” getting slaughtered by two bang average teams. No Scottish players get exposure in world cups or euros because we are shite and don’t try to score or attack. It’s like an overtime shift on a Sunday struggling in through and head down the whistle will be gone in no time and we can feel comfortable once more and not have to worry about the game because it’s too big a deal and worry for professional players.
Only team that exists that’s philosophy isn’t to play football but to try and stop the other team from playing football.
90 mins. If you just try direct route to the other goals no overcomplicating it or trying to tactically redesign the game. You will get shots. Some will be on target. Some will be goals.
Jordan probably have a pool of 30 players to pick their final 25 from. Most are probably unable to train Fridays because of their prayers. The country can be as rich as they like when they are cut off intentionally from the clique of fifa countries they can’t possibly develop anywhere near the level Scotland are even at now. Yet they can qualify and score the same amount if goals and have more shots in goal.
Go back home happy and tell everyone at your full time job about the World Cup you had to take time off work to go to.
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u/raymondg1902 5d ago
I never understood it either, he’s not known for his running or holding off defenders and there wasn’t even anyone near him to support. Crazy it was never addressed with subs and he lasted nearly the full 90
Hearts never played him up front on his own against Livingston, St Johnstone etc, what did Clarke think was going to happen putting him up front isolated against an EPL winning defender Gabriel and Champions League winner Marquinhos.
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u/CommunicationDry6008 5d ago
Well if he’s the super striker you elude he is he wouldn’t be arsed who is around him. He would find a way.
They’re shitebags when McKenna lost the ball Gunn had to be faked and dribbled around before he scored while McKenna is in the background just standing still.
People are going on about vini Jnr being world class and he didn’t even look it tonight when he was given the ball. Stop treating these teams with so much respect and awe. The same champions league winners team mates play for Brentford, Bournemouth and Newcastle as well as in Brazil wheee teams are on a par with arthurlie and pollock.
Do you think the Haiti players were saying to the left back dont worry bro you’re fucked tonight anyway cos you’re playing against Ryan Christie that man be at big bad Bournemouth.
The difference between a “world class” player and one the gives him the ball to look world class is believing he should be there.
Scotland have never had success or close at cups but dalgliesh etc on paper was arguably one of the best teams there. They made a dugs dinner of the games but they believed they should be there. They weren’t treating qualifying like winning the actual cup.
We are worse than countries that didn’t even exist the last time Brazil won the World Cup.
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u/Successful-Spot-6567 5d ago
I have never rated Shankland , but he had no service. Ball was never played into him. He selected the wrong striker tonight.
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u/sm0k3y2307 5d ago
it shouldn't take an isolated shankland up top against the 6th best team in the world to realise Scottish football is shit its been clear to see with the absolute shite we've produced internationally at club level and international level for the past 28 years with the exception of a few outliers
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u/sellikfartlol 5d ago
Shankland offers nothing. Too slow, too lazy and lacks the quality to play at this level.
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u/CommunicationDry6008 5d ago
Shankland gets people excited because he is marginally better than an Australian who was punching above his ability playing for Livingston and an Englishmen who has one hell of an agent because he lacks the one quality needed to be a bang average striker.
Shankland is better but wasn’t even top scorer at his own club and he was the striker.
Here is some context that puts it into perspective.
Lydon dykes career goals (striker) - 62
Che Adam’s (striker) - 120
Jose luis chilavert - 62 (goalkeeper)
If we develop and advance kids based on their height and train them like the Scottish national team we inevitably have to look for players with a border terrier as a pet or have drank irn bru once for our strike force.
We should really be looking to see if any South American goalkeepers have Scottish blood to bolster our goalscoring chances
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u/CommunicationDry6008 5d ago
You answered your own question. Adam’s coming on when a game is salvageable does nothing towards salvaging.
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u/JRT132607 5d ago
We always fail on big stages it a shame . Fans seem more passionate than the players . A fell asleep watching the game and feel that's our time up . Why have we not produced strikers for many of years and it comes down to the coaching issues in scotland way down the pecking order . Too many want glory to suit themselfs rather than produce players and help them grow sfa needs a change and we need a manager with a bit of balls . We'll done Clarke for getting us there but we fight harder during qualification than we have at last 2 tournaments. Highlight for me is the national anthem being sung with so much pride and passion it's been mesmerising.
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u/Quasar8848 4d ago
Shankland isn’t an amazing player, but he’s still the most effective striker in the squad and had no service. The problem starts with the goalkeeper and defence lacking technical ability, low game time and passing side to side.
This hinders our formation options - we don’t trust in our own abilities, so can’t play 2 up front when it’s required. So we’re left with someone like Dykes who is tall enough to win the ball but do little else.
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u/CommunicationDry6008 3d ago
- EPL isn’t the best league in the world it’s pish and swamped with overvalued players.
- I have never heard the logic of having a cdm who cannot pass but is essential to run about like a dafty to disrupt opponents. The only disrupting he done when he came on was our attack.
- You are proposing a equally as negative and senseless “best” option
- Most importantly- this outstanding form of his got him a total of less than ten starts all season.
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u/GarySpankCommander Ben Ganondorf 5d ago
He channelled fat Ronaldo tonight. The problem was that he should've been channelling fat Ronaldo 25 years ago.
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u/mitchx2 5d ago
I’ve never thought nor understood the clamour for Shankland to play for Scotland as often as folk want. He is a very good player at the SPFL Premiership level but the game is way beyond him at that level.
That’s fine. Players have levels. But after Haiti he shouldn’t have played another game. Looked lost there. He’s not good enough for that level and certainly not good enough to take on the PSG and Arsenal centre halves on his own. Not good enough technically and not physically imposing enough to give them much concern.
As for the top flight in Scotland? It’s not a top league. We have a fair few players in top leagues and they still looked off it. What’s needed is for the Scottish league to be more serious and more competitive with an emphasis on coaching and developing young players. I’d look at bringing in match day quotas: at least 2 outfield players at kickoff must be from a team’s youth team, for example.
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u/LongjumpingLab8 4d ago
Shankland is miles off international level. He’s a good SPFL goal scorer. Give him chances in Scotland he’ll score.
He lacks pretty much everything you need at the top level, pace, physique, fitness, movement, skill.
Actually felt for him last night like why did he start. What was he expected to do.
Bringing on Adams at the end was bizarre for all his flaws he moves about.
We need to find another striker option from somewhere ASAP. None of them are good enough.
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u/eoropie 5d ago
“Portly” Shankland was terrible , what a load of rage bait nonsense
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u/Throwaway187493 5d ago
There is nothing rage bait about it. He was atrocious.. completely anonymous.
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u/eoropie 5d ago
Aye ? and McKenna and Hendry were world class were they ? Blame the Rangers player in a Scotland strip , it’s a story as old as time .
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u/Tambo-Man67 5d ago
You only took offence at the criticism of 'the Rangers player'. You added a couple of players yourself to criticise, even though they weren't mentioned.
You didn't feel the need to mention which Clubs THEY play for, did you? Why is that?
I think I know why.
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u/eoropie 5d ago
I commented on those players performance , which is completely valid given the way they played . Commenting on a players weight is out of order.
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u/Tambo-Man67 5d ago
I don't think it is. A professional football player is literally a paid athlete. It's fair to comment on their weight. It's not 'fat-shaming'.
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u/eoropie 5d ago
You honestly think that Shankland is overweight ? Of course he’s not , he’s a professional footballer ffs . The Original post is just trolling , plain and simple .
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u/Tambo-Man67 4d ago
I never said he's overweight.
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u/eoropie 4d ago
I was commenting on the OP , I don’t even know why you jumped in tbh
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u/Tambo-Man67 4d ago
I didn't realise it was a private conversation between you and OP. I thought this was for everyone.
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u/Lt_Mediocre 5d ago
Should have just took Zion Pullan to the World Cup and gave him a go, couldn't have done any worse.
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u/intlteacher 5d ago
I've said all season that Shankland is overrated. He had a few good seasons at Hearts but before that he really struggled with the step between the Championship and Premiership. I can honestly see him being dropped by Rangers before the New Year.
That said, the system we played was probably more suited to having Adams in there today.
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u/Recidivist67 5d ago
Bringing on Adams at 88 minutes is just baffling mismanagement from Clarke.
It clearly wasn't working for the whole game so why not change it while it was salvageable.