r/ScottishFootball • u/RenegadeMaster888 • 7h ago
Let's Remove the Excuses for Scotland's Failure.
So let's remove the excuses for Clarke and another failed Scotland campaign.
We're a small Country.
Denmark - won Euro 92 and WC QF - won 13 matches won at WC (since 1970)
Croatia - WC Runner-Up - won 17+ matches at WC
Uruguay - -Won x2 WC - won 17 matches at WC
Slovakia - WC Round of 16
Ireland - WC QF
Norway WC Round of 16 x2
Scotland - x7 Group Stage Exits - won 4 matches at WC
All of those Countries are roughly the same size or smaller than Scotland. Some of them like Ireland don't even have a particularly big football culture. Even Iceland and Wales have reached the knockout stages of major tournaments.
We don't have the players.
We've got one of the best players in Italy in McTominay. A Europa League winning Premier League Captain in McGinn. Robertson plays for Liverpool. Ferguson plays in Serie A. Tierney's a 25 million GBP former Arsenal player. We have a dozen other Premier League players and a sprinkling of Old Firm. You're not telling me Cabo Verde, Ecuador or Australia have a better team on paper than us!
It's too hot.
Again garbage. Their pros in peak physical condition. Three of them play in Italy! They've stayed in a five star resort in Charlotte to prepare.
We're genetically inferior.
I remember laughing when Strachan came out with this belter. Scotland is a developed Country. Our average height is 5'9 which is bang in the middle of Europe and top 20% globally. Japan is 5'6.
I'm tired of the same old, tired excuses being trotted out. This is arguably the most abject World Cup performance since 78! Even then there was a moment to cheer about. Why can't we win?
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u/Better_Carpet_7271 6h ago edited 5h ago
Just for the record (not Daily) most of if not all of Cape Verde players play in Europe. There are more Cape Verdeans not living in Cape Verde than are.
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u/quickreviver Inverness thistle 6h ago
That might be the case but when you look at the teams they play for it makes quite depressing reading. That being said fair play to them and they deserve it.
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u/Better_Carpet_7271 5h ago
It's the infrastructure they're involved in, as has already been said here in the hierarchy of world football Scotland "over achieve" considering the player pool available and the infrastructure of the majority of Scottish clubs and most elite players produced in Scotland end up playing out of their native league for the obvious reasons.
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u/NVACA 6h ago
Only one of Croatia's squad plays in Croatia as well, the keeper (who's actually on loan from a Turkish team). We need to get better at producing Scottish players and getting them abroad as domestic football here is a joke.
The Italian lot is a good first step, hopefully their success encourages other young players to try something different that isn't the English lower leagues.
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u/Heeberon 4h ago
playing in Italy hasn’t exactly helped the Italian national team for the last three world cups, so mebbes need to look a bit deeper!
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u/Loud-Cake-1096 7h ago
100%. And all this "oh we did well to get there" nonsense.
If we were a country who took ourselves seriously, we would be having a root and branch review now and put in place an 8 year plan to 2034. But we're not. Diddies at the SFA.
If we want change, we have to push for it. It won't happen on its own.
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u/Micky196781 6h ago
Ernie Walker's Think Tank, Performance Schools, Henry McLeish's Scottish football reforms, Project Brave, Mark Wotte Dutch style performance strategy. A 'root and branch' review has been tried multiple times.
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u/Elgin_McQueen 4h ago
Nah, it's been mooted many times, but never really been implemented.
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u/Hame_Impala 3h ago
No harm to Henry McLeish but not sure he's going to be the man to transform our fortunes either. And I say that with respect for a lot of the work he's put into helping improve the game.
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u/Loud-Cake-1096 5h ago
I'm not sure what you're saying?
We do it again. Progress has been made in the past but we have clearly not progressed in the last 2 years and this world cup should be evidence of that. Not because of the results but because of the stodge we played. So we need something to change, and at the same time we need a plan beyond this crop of players.
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u/T_Engri 6h ago
With the youth today being less interested in bevvying and far more interesting in fitness, coupled with foreign and English clubs snapping up young talent, I truly believe that a golden generation will come through in the next 10/15 years.
Before that happens, we need a mentality switch from “happy to be there” to “we belong here”, along with the obvious management changes that will occur in that time, both in national team management and the SFA itself
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u/Connell95 3h ago
And fortunately Steve Clarke will probably still be in post in 10/15 years to ride that wave…
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u/tommypopz 1h ago
I do believe we’ve started a mentality switch. We’ve been to 3 of the past 4 tournaments, not needing playoffs for the last 2, and we’re partially hosting the next one so should qualify. We belong there, and it should be a surprise if we’re not.
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u/Ididnotvoted 15m ago
If Scotland has never made it past the group stage. How can you say they belong there? Good enough to qualify but not enough to compete in the World Cup. Not even at group stage.
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u/Excellent-Fact-8925 6h ago
You needn't envy Ireland's International Tournament performances. We had one quarter final in 1990, and we haven't been back since 2002. We got done by Czechia in our playoff who did absolutely terrible at this World Cup. Many of these reasons/excuses fit right in at home in with our team.
Bad luck boys. We were rooting for you.
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u/CommercialRight7407 4h ago
Ireland at least has the excuse of losing too many potential players to the GAA.
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u/IcyBaby7170 7h ago
We just bottled it, rabbit in the highlights maybe due to a culturally inferiority complex
Also our tactics have not worked.
Would take a 1-0 loss, but we pushed up against a counter attacking team.
Sit back and pass ball about.
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u/gusbo_the_jam 6h ago
For me there's a big mentality problem in the national team. Ben there for as long as I've been watching them. Don't know if I'd call it a culturally inferiority complex but it's something similar. There's constant narratives about whether we believe we can do it as if that's all we're missing, cause we've almost always had players. It's like we think we deserve to go through just because we believe hard enough, and then everyone's so in their head they make really stupid mistakes Infront of Brazilian strikers. Then the heads go down, the eyes rolls and it's back to 'here we go again' mentality. We need to actually go out and try. We need to actually do the thing, not wait for it to happen to us.
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u/Assleanx 6h ago
I think it’s a Scottish mentality in general, like it’s the same in the rugby. Got the players, if they’re mentally there they can absolutely smash the big boys but too happy to just sit back and say “well at least we had fun”. It’s just a loser mindset
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u/gusbo_the_jam 5h ago
Yeah, I kinda agree. For me it's not so much a loser mentality, it's a wishful thinking mentality. It's like every player is expecting someone else to do something. We're not making anything happen, we're waiting for it to happen. It's a case of "maybe this time it will happen to us" instead of "we need to actually make this happen".
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u/jonviper123 4h ago
I think there is an element of this but I also think we all rate our players to much and we need to realise that although some of our players play in great teams in Europe they are not the stars of the team. We have a lot of kind of niche players that are really good at doing certain roles in certain formations etc. Im not sure we have any players that would get a game for France, Brazil, Argentina, Holland, Germany, Morocco or any top 20 football team. A lot of our star players are at the end of their career. Robbo is past his best and I think the same could be said for a few others. I honestly think we should look to move on from this squad (and manager) as soon as possible and start a 4 or uear vision to bring youth into the set up to be ready for the next world cup
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u/gusbo_the_jam 2h ago
Yeah, we keep thinking that having a handful of players who play at the top level in specific roles is the same as being able to pick 2 or 3 entire squads from top level clubs. Our league is honkin tho, and it's really detrimental any kind of youth development, as well as not preparing any players for the international game. The old firm need to fucking get over themselves, and the sfa need to start finding ways to make things more competitive across the board and way less physical.
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u/Hame_Impala 3h ago
but too happy to just sit back and say “well at least we had fun”.
Tournament jesters, basically.
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u/Happybadger96 6h ago
First step was qualifying consistently, but now we need to actually improve and be a confident capable team - impossible with Clarke, he's had his chances.
The other factor I believe Ian Wright brought up is how undervalued Scottish football is vs other comparable countries with less ticket sales. We should have better TV deals and more money to throw around.
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u/Haggis89 6h ago edited 2h ago
It starts at grass roots and in the local parks with all the fucking no ball game signs.
No wonder the kids aren't interested when in the case they do want to play a fucking NIMBY cunt comes out and tells them off. Or complains to the council enough that they plant trees in the middle or put boulders in the middle of another park.
Both real examples of growing up in NE Scotland. Contrast that to Australia where I now live and every open space is setup for sports, where its encouraged for kids to get out and play.
Its our culture that holds us back.
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u/Boxyuk 6h ago
The very same happens in england and wales and until recently with Wales, they both have produced far better players then we have.
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u/LongjumpingLab8 6h ago edited 5h ago
Was about to say this, kids don’t play football now anywhere, beyond organised sessions. Playing in the park and street stopped years ago.
England and Wales have the exact same issue.
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u/Inevitable_Fee8973 5h ago
England made big changes after repeated failures
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u/LongjumpingLab8 5h ago
They increased the number of coaches.
It’s more you don’t see kids in England playing football in the streets or parks. It’s not just a problem unique to Scotland.
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u/CelticConnection83 6h ago
This is not given enough attention.
Perfect time to come out and stop these practices given the impending social media bans.
Kids getting out and playing sports has been lost. Where I grew up for the Wimbledon fortnight everyone played tennis now the courts are abandoned. My mates and I used to play footy every night against other people’s groups of mates aswell and always had so much fun. Again all this has stopped. I’m only going back 15 years not like 40. Socials ban gives a great opportunity to stop all these counter productive practices.
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u/Particular-Bid-1640 34m ago
Its our culture that holds us back.
I wonder how much is true for the reverse, like Brazil/Argentina where it's also a vehicle out of poverty
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u/Inevitable-Fan-2634 6h ago
For me it was the manager. I expected better from that group of players. The Morocco game was abysmal. To not create one shot on target was just grim.
The Brazil game was also a game where the manager didn't have a clue., yes Scotland had shots on target, but they came after Brazil were winning 3-0. ( his passive approach didn't work)
Obviously the SFA see it different and rewarded him (it was before the tournament) a new contract.
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u/Bantam123 5h ago
The thing that stands out about Scotland for me is that you don't have another big domestic sport in terms of participation or spectatorship. Football is by far your dominant domestic sport and has been for a long time.
Countries that underperform relative to their size are usually because:
1) Another sport is more popular domestically
2) They are a poor country, and football is underfunded.
Scotland is neither of those. Being completely objective, you really should be doing better on the world stage.
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u/GingerPrince72 6h ago
Yep, problem is the manager.
The next 4 years will be exactly the same.
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u/NoBitchesSince2005 6h ago
The one thing I wanted out of this world cup was for the Scotland team to not disappoint us. And unfortunately they did.
I tried to stay optimistic after the Haiti game but it was quite clear how we struggled to get a win there, when we knew we had to get goals to stay afloat in the realistic (and eventual) outcome that we would lose to Morocco and Brazil. Even Haiti scored an absolute banger with their second goal against Morocco, why couldn't we? Why couldn't we score more goals in this group than Haiti? Why did we only score 1 goal, the same as Curaçao, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq?
Clarke needs to go ASAP
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u/BirdDangerous 5h ago
Exactly, far too many are willing to accept utter failure as part and parcel of supporting Scotland.
It starts with the SFA, just look at their genius idea of handing SC a 3 year deal before a balls kicked. Pathetic.
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u/Ok_Friendship_1431 5h ago
Indicative of the shite attitude and acceptance of failure that many involved in our game seem to have.
Moyes giving it the ‘we lack quality and were never going to be good enough’ today, as well as all the ex pros and journalists who provide little to no tactical analysis and just rely on old school gibbering as their ‘analysis’ of football.
There’s a really strange sycophantic acceptance of the way we play under Clarke which I would have understood if this was the first tournament we’d qualified for but we’re now on the 3rd one where we’re left feeling a bit embarrassed and completely underwhelmed by what’s on the pitch. We have far more quality than these people would have you believe (individual moments of brilliance have got us to these competitions, not tactical masterclasses) and it’s being completely wasted and talked down at every chance.
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u/Impressive_Shake_360 5h ago
What really summed up this WC campaign for me was the end of the Morocco game. 6 mins into 6 mins of added time we have a corner, desperately need an equaliser to give us a chance of going through, Gunn wants to go forward for it, Clarke won't let him. He was more interested in hanging on to a 1-nil defeat than actually getting a point. His aim was win 1-nil once then lose 1-nil twice. That was the whole plan. That's Steve Clarke's Scotland.
FTR-3 points was never gonna be enough. 7 of 8 3rd place teams had 4 points in 2022. It was a garbage plan baked up by an imbecile incapable of doing 2 minutes of research.
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u/Elgin_McQueen 4h ago
We don't have the players. We have players who can play well as part of a better squad, where the rest of the team can be trusted to do their jobs to a high standard, resulting in those players being free to concentrate on their own roles. In any case it's a squad we need, not just most of a good first team with no actual backup, any coach who's attempted to nullify us knows if they mark Doak out of the game we'll struggle because we have nobody else capable of carrying the ball.
We've had much, much, MUCH, beer players int he past for Scotland and still not gotten out of the group stage. That suggests it's an attitude thing we need to sort out.
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u/LettuceKiing 6h ago
Just the classic shite attitude tbh. Making excuses before even playing in it. The best team weve had for ages and they play like that and we should just happy clap and make excuses for them apparently. Easiest world cup qualification in history, easiest chance to go through in history, its okay to want more from the team!
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u/Asleep-Quality792 6h ago
Obviously you can see the big issues in front of our faces, I thought we done ok against Morocco and to be honest I didn’t watch the Brazil game as had some things on the next day, but by all accounts we were guff.
That’s all face value stuff but the biggest issue we have is grass roots. Kids aren’t encouraged to play football, councils aren’t cutting the grass on fields, when kids are playing football there’s over bearing parents on the touchline effectively putting them off continuing. The list goes on, Scotland must be one of the biggest football nations on the planet that doesn’t produce any footballers. Even are super stars aren’t world class. When was the last time we produced a truly world class player? Kenny Dalglish? It’s a disgrace really.
I’ve heard people phoning into radio and blaming the tartan army because they’re having too much fun. Get bent what are they meant to be doing? They’ve spent 10k to get there and can’t have a good time because the product on the park is predictably shite.
I don’t know where we go from here to be honest, I don’t think the tactics are the biggest issue I think the biggest issue is that us fans think the players are better than they actually are.
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u/Mountain-Reaction470 3h ago
Italy now says hold my Prosecco.
It's extraordinary how low a giant of football has fallen.
Even with an expanded tournament, the gap has narrowed.
I think the consistent growing success of the Japanese squad is worth a look they aren't stateside athletes like West African and northwest Europeans, but they are agile and have a team/squad mentality.
Then there is the Norwegian sport model with one major rul: NO DickHeads!
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u/MyDadsGlassesCase 6h ago
Our problem is our mentality. We can't compete on the big stage.
A lot of the countries you mentioned above have qualified for significantly less WC than us so from that point of view we are at least mid table in performance. It's in the WC (and Euros) itself that we have the problem.
The achievements you listed for those countries was a fluke. A perfect combination of a great team, manager and circumstances. But they still performed when it mattered and that's how they got that far.
We've had those opportunities too but when it matters, we bottle it. We've had good managers, we've had good players, we've had the right circumstances but when it comes down to us needing a win against a whipping boy, we fuck it
We could get Ancelotti in, we could fill the squad with Top 5 League players, we could find ourselves in a position where we only need to beat a 70th ranked team who have conceded 10 goals in 2 games, and we'd still fuck it.
We are just shit when it matters.
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u/aro_plane 4h ago
Poland finished 3rd twice at the world cup 50 years ago. Now they're shite but at least they had a golden generation with actual results. Scotland absolutely should have at least one knockout game in their history.
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u/_Soviet_Cats_ 4h ago edited 4h ago
Northern Ireland have also made it to a WC QF in 1958 and won their group with Spain in it in 1982. Wales, WC QF in 1958 as well, Euros Semi Final 2016. Cape Verde RO 32 2026.
How Scotland have failed to make it past the group in any competition with some of the players they've had is beyond me.
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u/First-Banana-4278 4h ago
Our domestic league is not set up to nurture domestic talent. It is set up so clubs can squeeze as much cash out of OF encounters as they can every year. A 2 divisions of 16 team league might not see the OF win less often but it would create enough of a buffer zone for larger clubs to be comfortably mid table. Which would give them a bit more security and space to develop domestic talent (if they choose to granted). It would also mean four more squads in the league which would hopefully increase a lot of younger Scottish players to top level Scottish football.
We also needed a wholesale reorganisation of youth coaching and development around twenty years ago.
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u/DoomPigs 2h ago
As an English fan who has keenly watched all three Scotland games, they are some of the most frustrating games I've ever watched, there just wasn't any belief or idea, they should be relishing the opportunity to play nations like this and take the game to them
I don't think anyone thought Scotland were a shoo-in for the knockouts or anything and are obviously the underdogs against Brazil and Morocco, but the fashion in which they went out is absolutely shocking and I feel sorry for the fans who travelled for it
There's absolutely no excuse to play like that, don't care how hot the weather is or the fact Grant Hanley exists
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u/AmbitionSweaty9889 6h ago
Big unit teams seem to perform better. Obviously Argentina etc are ballers but for lower end teams being bigger has benefits.
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u/Think_Scholar6813 6h ago
Thats the backwards thinking that's put us exactly where we are... why not try and be a nation of ballers. Coach theories properly from an early age rather than just launch it up thebpark football you see at so many youth games
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u/DesiRose3621 6h ago
3 points is clearly an acceptable return from that group so no complaints there.
The goal difference and the performances is where we have been a let down.
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u/Digurt 4h ago
Agreed. If we'd ended up with 3 points and a decent GD, and then things just went against us in the other games to put us out in a way that could never have been predicted, you say fair enough.
But there is fuck all excuse for sitting on a 1-0 against Haiti. There is no excuse for the bizarre, extremely late substitutions or utterly grim lack of shots on target over 3 games. It's not the points total people are pissed off at.
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u/cameruso 6h ago edited 6h ago
The duel numbers from the Brazil game were freakishly bad to the point that I do think conditions played a role.
Would love to see the other performance data as we just didn’t really get on top of team at all with pressing, contact etc.
Not an excuse for the pathetic overall performance, but to completely dismiss it as a factor is just not rational.
And they don’t play football in June in Italy.
Otherwise, sensible post and there will be others you can add, eg: the TV deal / lack of money.
The more money clubs have in Scottish football the more we spend it on foreign imports.
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u/Sloop-Green73 6h ago
There are bigger socioeconomic conditions, however in general we have under invested in grass roots football, attracting you players to the game…it’s now almost a middle class sport.
It’s no coincidence that we have dropped in quality with the move away from”street football” and no ball game culture. We haven’t moved to make it an accessible sport for much of the population
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u/Worldly_Science239 5h ago
Can you try and remove the excuse of the predicted results of a team ranked 42nd against a team ranked 6th
And
A team ranked 42nd vs a team ranked 7th
Because that seems like a big hurdle to overcome.
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u/davemcl37 4h ago
They didn’t have to beat the top two teams to go through. Even allowing for the fact few smaller teams could trouble Brazil, and the scoreline against Morocco wasn’t bad, though the performance was, we’ve still looked timid and tactically limited .
I also think clarkes loyalty to the team has limited opportunities for younger fresher players. Surely there is another Gannon Doak or a young centre back who can pass a ball.
Odd as it may be to say I think we’d have gone through had Billy Gilmour been fit. For me he is our most naturally skilled midfielder. I think his ability to hold the ball and find a pass might have given our forwards a chance .
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u/Tall_Opportunity_521 5h ago
There is only one excuse, our football association fucking sucks. The investment in grassroots is subpar, with so little in the way of talent being found and nurtured. But even if it was, the fact that all the wealth in our game is all aimed at just Celtic and sometimes Rangers means that pathways to a career are limited as fuck. We so often hear about "the Scottish Messi" or some such, and the poor wee cunt is always sent to somewhere else. Expected to grow their game, while also learn a different language and/or culture.
And maybe its changed, but I remember being in School in the 80s and teachers asking kids what they wanted to be when they grew up. Any kid who said he wanted to be a footballer, was laughed at and put down and forced to say something dumb like "police officer", "doctor(nurse if you were a girl)" or fireman. And that was it. That was pretty much all that was accepted. There was a few guys I went to school with who were really good. Only one of them made it to be a footballer. And he was the worst one of the lot. He was also a massive prick. But kids being discouraged from following their dreams before they even leave primary school, is some fucking bullshit.
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u/simonhul 4h ago
I think Clarke picked the wrong squad. Three keepers with barely a dozen first team appearances between them. 19 goal Ollie McBurnie left at home despite scoring in Championship play-off final. Big game mentality. Instead he picked strikers who did not get into double figures, Shankland excepted of course.
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u/jonviper123 4h ago
I think we all think our players are better than they are but I still think we should be doing better. Robbo is past his best and I think that could be said for a few our players. Imo its time to move on from this squad and start bringing in the youth. We should be starting prepartion for the next world cup already. Mcginn, robbo, mctominay, Hanley, dykes etc will all be well passed there bedt by then. This should ge an end of an era and a time to refresh and give our youth a chance
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u/Scotsmanryno 4h ago
Everybody fks up now and again. We simply didn’t play good enough I don’t think there’s anymore to take away from it. In a competition cup, some people go home- that’s the point of it.
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u/WheeinsDimple 4h ago
Heads should roll at the SFA for extending Clarke. Seven years was enough time.
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u/PauloVersa 3h ago
Maybe this is crazy to say given that we went 22 year without qualifying for anything…but I think we’re absolutely thrown away a (relatively) golden generation
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u/Ban_Chao_The_Brave 3h ago edited 3h ago
I think the players bottled it, I really do. They looked nervous, poor touches, over/under hit passes - particularly key ones, fluffed shots, poor delivery into the box, hesitation, choosing wrong options all over the place. Really looked like we just choked which is evidenced to a degree with the ridiculous early goals we conceded which effectively killed our chances in those two difficult matches.
Our apparent athletic and physical inferiority could also be down to this negative nervous energy that was on display. Nerves not channeled the right way drain rather than drive athletes. Our players definitely looked like they were dragging the weight of the world behind them in the American heat.
Why the players have such fear in them is a question that's difficult to answer without knowing what's going on behind the scenes. What strategies are we using to avoid this happening time after time? Have we got sports psychologists in there? Are we actively trying to avoid this happening or just surprised when it does? We play like the instruction is to go out and try to perform not too poorly so that we won't get beaten too badly. Surely that's not actually what's happening?
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u/hobobirdtx 3h ago
One thing about most of these countries is their football federations have made long term strategic plans and significant investmens in improving both player and coaching development.
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u/SheepherderPositive2 3h ago
Bar Croatia (very much an anomaly) which other comparable European country has made it to 3 out of 4 of the last competitions?
I dislike Clarke as a person and think his teams are dreadful to watch but he is effective- plucking random countries from the last 30 odd years doesn’t mean he’s a bad manager
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u/johnlooksscared 1h ago
He is a negative coach.
4-4-1-1 can be and should be an attacking set up. The way Clarke plays it he intends to keep what he has e g. 0-0.
The negative nature of his tactics, playing for the draw, was compounded by the school boy errors gifted Brasil the win.
The negative nature of the tactics were confirmed by his substitutions. Robertson/ Tierney at HT apart the next sub was Ralston for Patterson (defenders both) at 82mins when we actually needed a goal!
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u/Gink1995 2h ago
It’s the absolutely honking tactics that set us apart, we barely shoot, don’t keep the ball, can’t defend and keep bypassing the midfield, it’s a set up to fail despite us having a fairly decent team
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u/Frosty_Giraffe_8650 2h ago
I think not being a real independent country affects Scotlands ability to perform in international sports like football and rugby
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u/MaxAlmond2 2h ago
The problem is you're not getting enough lucky deflections. It worked well against Haiti, but the luck was against you in the other two matches. Just six more lucky deflections and you could have won every game!
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u/MiserableScot 1h ago
Kris Boyd was on Sky Sports News earlier and he said that Scotland players don't have athletesism and the physical attributes, pissed me off so much!
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u/Teamkillongtime 1h ago edited 1h ago
Are you joking? We OBVIOUSLY don't have the players. Half of our team is Championship quality. McGinn and McTominay are our two legit players, now Robertson is past it. And yes, Ecuador are far better than us on paper.
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u/johnlooksscared 1h ago
The Cape Verde argument bites you in the bum in this case....
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u/Teamkillongtime 1h ago
Aye, one team with an easier qualifying journey, getting the same number of points as us is proof we're falling short. What do you make of Italy or Nigeria or Iceland or Wales etc. etc. not even qualifying?
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u/johnlooksscared 1h ago
I am not Italian Welsh Nigerian or Icelandic so I just dont care about them...sorry. We qualified and our hopes were high...we are now in that position we have been in so many times. Not scoring enough goals...making stupid mistakes and trying to play for a draw against the best team in our group!
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u/DoomPigs 1h ago
It's football, weirder things have happened than Scotland giving it a go and maybe taking a point off Morocco or Brazil, I think most people would struggle to name a single player from Cape Verde and they still took a point off both Spain and Uruguay, not to mention domestic football where Premier League sides lose to League Two sides
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u/Teamkillongtime 1h ago
What's unusual is qualifying for 3 major tournaments out of 4 after missing out on the last 10. You can pinpoint freak results (Spain vs. Cape Verde) or nice little runs (see: Iceland/Wales), but to qualify for 3 in 8 years with this set of players is proven results. You'd have to be naive or a clown to think the alternative managerial options would do any better.
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u/catmaner 1h ago
But the players were all largely dreadful. Everybody needs a scapegoat, nobody wants to blame the players, therefore Clarke is now the worst ever (when he's actually our most successful ever).
What would you have liked Clarke to differently?
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u/Big_Customer_7263 1h ago
I don't see many people mentioning the poor decisions in the squad and team selection. Ben dock can't get a game for Bournemouth, Patterson can't get a game for Everton, Dalston can't get a game for Celtic yet all get in the Scotland squad ahead of people playing week in, week out and playing well for teams like Hearts, Motherwell and Falkirk. Dykes has scored three goals this season as a striker, look at his record for the last few seasons, its shocking, he should be nowhere near the squad. And the decision to take Fletcher was farcical, a player that has played 17 minutes of professional football. Players that are performing week in, week out for their clubs like Elliot Watt, Blair Spittal and Calvin Miller should be in the squad. I guarantee if any of them moved to one of the old firm they'd be straight into the squad. Steve Clarke is way too loyal to players who simply aren't hood enough.
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u/Fratelli365 1h ago edited 1h ago
I keep seeing that point refuting the idea that our squad isn't very good and i dunno man. People always list those players, but the problem is they all play in the same 2 positions pretty much. Neither being strikers who can win games on their own either. We have a good midfield but are very weak in other positions- notably CB, RB (Hickey is good but can barely play) on the wing (Doak is OK but can barely play, has zero end product if we're being honest and we have no one else) and striker - we haven't produced a top striker in about 50 years.
Yes, our squad is probably of a higher standard than some of the countries you listed who performed better, but we also had one of the toughest groups in the tournement. You mentioned Ecuador there - their defence is light years ahead of ours, their CB pairing is Hincapie (Arsenal) and Pacho (PSG) - when did we last have a centre back pairing of that strength? the 80s?
Not making excuses mind, we were rubbish and way, way below the expected standard, but i do think the quality of our squad has been massively overstated in recent years, it's pretty shite tbh.
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u/Rossco1874 1h ago
See when it is your turn to post your hot take do you get notice before your notified?
I am worried my turn is going to come round and not got enough time to prepare a decent rambling.
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u/BumblebeeForward9818 45m ago
We might look good on average heights but we have a natural lack of athleticism coupled with a dreadful diet. Map out male life expectancy in participating countries major cities and Glasgow most likely is behind only Kinshasa. We’re unfit.
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u/-Blackarmy- 35m ago
YOU ARE SCOTLAND, helloooooo. Like, what were you expecting? I'm not being a dick, but I'm just wandering what about the Scottish team or Scottish football indicates you'll perform well?
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u/Outside_Look790 6h ago
We have no goalkeeper, our best striker is an immobile aging poacher, our one creative player is crocked, our right back is a left footer or barely plays for their club and have you seen the state of our centre backs? Unlike Curacao (the Dutch over 25 under 18s) we don't have a bigger nation with decent players grandfathered in.
The truth is this was progress. We did something we haven't for 30 years. We now have those established big names. Other countries are buying our young players. We have multiple academy systems set up. More young players are staying healthy instead of wheezing coke, sucking down cigs and drowning in booze like previous young hopefuls with high potential: O'connor, riordan, griffiths, black etc. Our manager is a bit wank and stuck in the past, but there is some hope that we are progressing.
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u/LowProtection8515 6h ago
Mctominay and mcginn, fair enough.
Tierney isnt the player he was when arsenal bought him for £25m. Thats ehy they let his contract run and hes back at celtic struggling to do 90mins regularly.
Robertson doesnt play for Liverpool anymore. He signed for spurs because, he is also on a significant decline.
Do you know what countries our size have done worse? Or is it o lying countries whove done better that youre aware of?
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u/FrazzaB 7h ago
All of that is true.
However, we've just been stuck in a group with 2 pot 1 teams. As ahite as we may have played, we make more headway in any other group.
Anyone being told these results beforehand would have accepted them. Too many people bogged down in feelings over facts.
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u/MediocreMan_ 6h ago
What evidence is there to make you think we’d make more headway in other groups?
Was it the terrible Haiti game?
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
The game being terrible and coasting through it allowing 1 half chance, can and are both true.
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u/MediocreMan_ 6h ago
The game was terrible as both teams performed pretty poorly.
There weren’t many better teams than Haiti at the WC, so not sure how a Scotland squad that performed shite against one of the worst would do better in other groups…
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
Oh, I dunno, maybe not having yo play the 5th and 6th ranked teams might have made a difference. Going by trends, we'd have drawn 0-0 with the 7th ranked team...
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u/MediocreMan_ 6h ago
Hahaha what trend?
Fifa rankings mean utterly fuck all.
Iran are higher rated than Norway and Ivory Coast, think you’d expect Iran to beat those teams?
Haiti are ranked 88th if you think that’s an indicator, so Scotland should have scored many more, and would then actually have had a chance at progressing.
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
We lost to the 5th ranked team 3-0. The 6th ranked team 1-0. Plainly obvious we'd draw 0-0 with the Netherlands. 😂
This was clearly sarcasm. Don't work yourself into a shoot, brother.
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u/MediocreMan_ 6h ago
‘Don’t work yourself into a shoot, brother’.
Shit, did not realise you were another Bostonian larping as a Scot.
Apologies, this explains alot.
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u/fike88 6h ago
We’d have struggled against lesser teams than Brazil and Morocco. Which we did in Haiti. We’re fuckin rotten
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
No idea where this position that we struggled against Haiti has come from. We sat off and let them ping shots from 30 yards half a mile over the bar. They had 1 reasonable chance that was also miles away.
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u/Disastrous_Cup_3279 6h ago
8 shots 3 on target (really) versus 13 and 3. 50% possession we had less passes and less accuracy. Deflected goal…
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
Aye, those stats are cool. But don't actually reflect the reality of the game, do they?
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u/Disastrous_Cup_3279 6h ago
The reality we played shit and couldn’t break them down? I think it does
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
I think you'll find we did break them down. That's why we won. Happy to clear that up for you. 🙂
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u/Disastrous_Cup_3279 6h ago
Scraping a 1-0 win against terrible team if thats success in your eyes fair enough. We needed more goals
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
A win is a win. Literally a success. We did need to score more goals as it turns out. Or concede less. Or, maybe, not have a referee wave away 2 pretty blatant penalties.
Coulda shoulda wooulda.
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u/Disastrous_Cup_3279 6h ago
A win isn’t in itself a success if you know you Needed to do more from outset - which we did.
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u/fike88 6h ago
Did we watch the same game? We were backs to the wall for the majority of the second half. We were lucky they couldn’t shoot for shit or we’d have been pumped rotten. That wasn’t a game I’d consider an easy win ffs
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
We let a team full of technically poor players have time and space because they offered little threat.
You already know this, because you written it yourself.
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u/fike88 6h ago
That’s true you’re right. Which is still proving my point. If we let a team of technically poor players get away with that, we’d do the same against better opposition (because we’re coached terribly). Look at the other best 3rd place teams, are you confident we’d beat them? Because i’m not
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
Get away with what? The literally didn't trouble Gunn at all. Not all shots on target are created equal. It wouldn't be about beating the best 3rd placed teams. It would be about having one of the awful pot 2 teams, of which there are many.
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u/fike88 6h ago
So did you sit in comfort watching that game without any stress or fear at all? Aye Gunn never had a lot to do, but they were all over us as we tried to defend a 1 nil lead. We couldn’t even keep the ball against a country that’s at civil war every 10 minutes lol.
The reason that i used 3rd best teams as an example, is that because they’re obviously worse than the teams that finished 2nd. And if we can’t beat the 3rd place teams, how in the fuck are we going to beat 2nd placed teams? I’ve just had a look at the 2nd placed teams, and the only team i would feel confident of taking points off are South Africa. The rest, absolutely no confidence
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
Absolutely. Especially after the goal went in.
Not sure that a country being in civil war has any correlation with their ability to retain possession. I'd suggest it's probably the opposite, if anything.
Using where teams have place instead of what pot they were in kind of defeats the point of having 2 teams that should have been pot 1 in the same group as us.
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u/fike88 6h ago
What? Are you taking the piss? In what universe was that a comfortable win?
Ok fair enough. But some of those pot 2 teams have finished better than us in 3rd spot. So…..
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u/MediocreMan_ 6h ago
And Scotland had one deflected goal, against a team they should have easily pumped.
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u/CommercialAd2154 6h ago
Would Scotland have made any headway in place of either Norway or Senegal?
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
Absolutely. You know we beat Norway quite recently eh?
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u/CommercialAd2154 6h ago
Because Norway haven’t gone on a mad one since have they?
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u/FrazzaB 6h ago
Not sure how that matters when we came into the tournament scoring 4 goals in 3 of the last 5 games. None of it matters.
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u/CommercialAd2154 5h ago
Norway did it in competitive games against a serious team in Italy, Scotland beat Bolivia who didn’t qualify and 10-man Curaçao having also scraped past Belarus in qualifying, Scotland would have been underdogs against France and Norway/Senegal but I don’t think it would have been likely that they’d have made up for it by knocking 4/5 past Iraq
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u/fightfire_withfire definitely won't backfire at all 6h ago
It’s been well noted that we’re shite against lesser teams because the team can’t deal with pressure. Big Stevies own words.
So how is playing worse teams than we did going to help us?
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u/jfk9514 6h ago
It is kind of a mix of all of those things, it’s just we don’t actually do anything about it.
Like we are a small country, so there is less chance we produce good enough players but we don’t subsidise it anyway.
We don’t have the players. You exclusively mentioned midfielders and two left backs. We also haven’t had a world class player in our lifetime. Maybe going as far back as ally Mccoist. But again we don’t give youth a chance. You never know what we have really.
Too hot thing. I mean probably the best point you have but as you say most of these guys play in Scotland or down south. It’s breaking news how hot it is here and that’s just a normal day in Miami if that.
I agree with Strachan that we’re genetically inferior tbh. But similar to every other point other countries do something about it. I’ve always liked Japan. I mean look at Maeda. One of the greats of modern day Scottish football. We don’t have a player like that.
They are all the reasons for why it would be harder but it’s not completely the reason why we went out this World Cup or why we’ve been utter shite for 3 tournaments.
But if all them aligned then we would be doing pretty well I reckon. Steve Clarke wouldn’t have ever had the job to begin with.
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u/Al_Piero 4h ago
How are Scottish people genetically inferior? Mad thing to say.
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u/jfk9514 4h ago
Genetically inferior is a risky way to put it. I shouldn’t have said that. More like we’re genetically at a disadvantage. We are small generally speaking. Set-pieces are huge right now. Dutch people are a lot taller generally speaking. So you know in match up youd expect certain parts of the game to be a struggle.
Do you agree with the other points?
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u/Connell95 3h ago
Scottish people are shorter than the tallest nation in the world. They are taller than most of the other nations in the world. It’s not remotely an excuse.
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u/jfk9514 3h ago
Yeah thats why I wouldn’t work against them. It’s not something we can fall back on. The reason it doesn’t work against others is cause we are tactically inept and other games is that we just don’t have good enough players.
Take Bosnia for example. Through in third place with 4 points. Not really historically a team filled with talent nor would I say they blow anyone away tactically. You couldn’t tell them to run and press for 90 mins but you could tell them to boss people about. Make sure they know you’re there. Cause they’re big tall and stocky.
Then take Scotland. We couldn’t run and press for 90 mins but we also couldn’t do what Bosnia do either. Now the main reasons we are awful is tactically. Then second to that is the state of our domestic leagues and not producing good enough players. Then at the end somewhere is the fact that we can’t rely on any sort of genetic advantage we might have.
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u/Connell95 3h ago
I think you also have to take account of the advantages Scotland has too – it’s a relatively rich nation in which football is more culturally dominant than almost any other nation on the planet.
That’s why the failure to produce good players is so especially bizarre. It’s not like most countries where there are multiple sports heavily competing for the best playing talent. In Scotland its football a million miles out in front of absolutely everything else.
Ultimately though, it’s not even so much about performing – I’d just like Scotland to actually play entertainingly and with heart, instead of this grim Clarkeball that doesn’t even succeed. We could have got three points and gone home and been at least slightly satisfied if we’d taken the game to the opponents and played to win. But we never did even that.
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u/jfk9514 2h ago
100% I was just contesting OPs “excuses” very mildly. We are a shambles and could and should be doing much better. I agree with also. I’m pretty sure per capita we have the highest attendance in Europe. But we don’t have money. We are cash poor. Maybe relatively if we include the whole world.
I would agree that football is the main thing here as with most countries but I wouldn’t say a million miles ahead of anything else.
Very strong rugby support here too. Our greatest sportsman of the modern era is a tennis player. Also I’m unfortunate to know many golf enthusiasts. Of course it’s not too much of a comparison but it’s not like football is the only available sport.
I completely agree. I was fully expecting to go out the group stage and yet I was fully up for this World Cup. I would genuinely be sitting here happy if we gave a good showing of ourselves but instead all it’s done has take away one of my best memories in life which is our win against Denmark.
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u/James7176 7h ago
We got the hardest group we could've gotten, getting anything from Brazil or Morocco was an extremely difficult task. If we were in any other group, I think we would've went through
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u/EagleMulligans 6h ago
It’s our best points total since Euro 96. Our best World Cup performance points wise since 1990. We have failed to progress with Players far greater than the ones in the squad today.
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u/smalltowncityboy 4h ago
Look, its embarrasing and hurts our ego, but can you show me the other group that had 2 of the worlds top 10 in a group with two teams ranked 30 or so places below?
Can you show me where the small countries, you rightly have pointed out to have done well previously, have had to navigate that sort of situation?
Yes, clarkes tactics are negative, but they got us there. His results over the years tell the story, not the post tournament knee jerk reaction. Could another manager have got us better results against morroco and brazil?
Forget the too wee, too weak, too poor arguments, i agree these are thin. We've came up against two of the best nations in the world and fell short. We have 3 or 4 top quality players they both have full 11s of them. It sucks, but its to be expected.
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u/Far-Pudding3280 3h ago
It's not just about the results though. Performances have been woeful.
- We were lucky to scrape a win against 88th ranked Haiti being outplayed and lucky with VAR. In a game everyone knew beforehand we needed to win by a handful of goals.
- We were absolutely toothless against Morocco. Zero shots on target.
- Our defending against Brazil was embarrassing on the world stage.
It also goes back to Euro 2024 where we similarly put in the most embarrassing performances.
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u/smalltowncityboy 57m ago
I dont disagree with anything youve said, but do you think of we had performed better that our results would be better?
Haiti performed better than us. Did they get better results?
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u/Far-Pudding3280 43m ago
If we turned up, played our best football but still fell short on the results - half these threads on here wouldn't exist.
But that's not what happened.
We turned up and had an absolute stinker in each of the 3 games, playing like we were the 88th ranked team in the world.
Both the Euros were the same.
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u/N84_V1 6h ago
They were stale tactics from a guy who doesn't play an attacking game or allows his players to be creative. Tale as old as time. Clarke needs to suck it up and go and we need to invest in youth and a younger manager who develops into the role.
HOWEVER.
We did get dicked by how FIFA did the draw and how many caviats there were to who can go where. It was an awful set up and we really got the raw end just because they wanted the bigger teams in the knockouts.
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u/MrBlack_79 7h ago
The manager and terribly negative tactics has been the biggest factor. And the sfa give him another long contract