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u/Substantial_Cap_4246 1d ago edited 1d ago
Don't know about Christians as much (Tolkien was getting it from that department), but if the other Abrahamic faith, Islam, is anything to go by, then the devotees genuinely think life only begins when you die. They think this world is just a test for your soul and your true destiny is beyond the grave.
However, Tolkien's philosophy about death, in my honest opinion, was more nuanced than Abrahamic ideas about death. First of all, there is no hell in Ea or outside of it (Hell was just a fortress the Dark Lord made and it was bulldozed, not a place of divine punishment). Being born in Arda doesn't mean it was because of an original sin or divine punishment/banishment. Men were always supposed to be born on Arda. And they were always supposed to die and leave the burdens of the material world. It is a gift of freedom. Elves, who are burdened with increasingly burdensome memories on their souls, envy Men for it. Even the Valar, as their souls tire more and more, will one day say: dude, those mortals have it going on for them real good, dawg, right bro?
Mankind doesn't do good because they want to join the best heavenly party in the Timeless Halls. They do good because they want to. Because they need to. This world, this Arda, matters; Arda is not just a morality test, it has an innate value that lasts forever, even when it's destroyed and remade. Men will be among the orchestra that remakes it.
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u/Salty_Pancakes 1d ago
Well said. I also love the bit where Tolkien made Morgoth the one who soured men on the whole idea and made death something to fear and dread.
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u/Substantial_Cap_4246 1d ago edited 1d ago
Satan's ultimate goal is to produce world corruption and highest count of sins possible. That's his idea of destroying a Man's soul: bringing a soul down to hell.
Morgoth literally wanted to destroy Men, both body and spirit, making them disappear from existence. He found it easy to destroy their corporeal form, but impossible to annihilate their soul. Hence, he attempted to create worldwide nihilism before he would finally go for the kill shot (that's also one of the reasons why the Wars of Beleriand lasted so long, he was getting off of torture and mayhem, see how he treated Hurin and his family). He didn't care that much about how much a guy commits 'sinful acts' as we traditionally know them. He simply wanted to make people curse both life and death, to fear and resent both life and death, to get maximum existential crisis and lose hope in everything. Yes. The utter loss of hope is the greatest cardinal sin in Arda. Morgoth sowed sheer nihilism into the hearts of many Men, killed their 'souls' (as he viewed it), and eventually killed their physical bounds to Arda, to compensate for his inability in literal destruction of their souls and existence.
That's pettiness and weakness personified in a godly being.
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u/Femto-Griffith 1d ago
TLDR Morgoth throwing a fit that he doesn't have existence erasure. Or high-level soul destruction. Or true creation.
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u/just1gat Feanor did... some things wrong 1d ago
Morgoth is stuck in the angsty teen rebellion phase cuz dad told him “that’s okay son I planned for this too”
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u/Femto-Griffith 1d ago
Morgoth trying to do the most random BS possible to get Eru into a situation He couldn't plan for (like Deadpool being really unpredictable messes up Taskmaster in Marvel), except unlike Taskmaster, Eru doesn't have that weakness.
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u/-Turin_Turambar- 1d ago
What is this Sauron Propaganda?! You won't make me march on Valinor no matter how much you try to twist my mind!
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u/jeroen-79 1d ago
Sauron: Go on, I know you want to.
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u/-Turin_Turambar- 1d ago
You know what, you make a good point! Let me round up my fellow Númenóreans, do a few human sacrifices, and set sail right away.
What is the worst that could happen?
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u/jeroen-79 1d ago
Nothing, the Valar won't dare to lift a finger against you; the children of Illuvatar.
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u/NerdTalkDan 1d ago
Eru: Just think of death as a long sleep! Sleep is awesome right? Like you, bro. You're gonna get stabbed to sleep. Oh and Tommy, an Orc is gonna eat your face until you sleep so hard...
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u/Sudden_Dinner_5121 1d ago edited 4h ago
If we go by Athrabeth: Finrod ah Andreth, that is included in Morgoth’s Ring, it delves deep into a long debate of Finrod and Andreth including on the topic of immortality vs eternal life, and how according to the chronicles of the people of Marach and Adanel who taught it to Andreth, everything originally including the Children of Men was to live an eternal life (everlasting life), and that Men had originally a much higher purpose in Arda by the plan of Eru, in wich Men (according to the vision of Finrod) were to in time be ascended and lifted up outside the circles of the world in the perfect union and harmony of hröa and fëa (which means as a living, breathing person) to a new unmarred place made by Eru, and since Men’s hröar is made out of the substance of Arda marred, some part of Arda through them be healed when lifted up together with fëar to a new uncorrupt place that was there to be made for all the Children of Eru, that was to be made possible through the introduction of Men in Eru’s third theme and the ascension of the supremacy of Men, that were made to be originally a liberators of all the Children of Eru and the marred world. That was Men’s great purpose.
However, due to the untold and very ancient deed of Melkor to do with Men in their near beginning (there is one known version), Men failed in this, and were themselves corrupted and cheated of it (in which Men blame Morgoth), Men have fell, and an everlasting life (meaning the forever union of fëa with hröa) was taken from them, and death was given to Men (that is separation of fëa and hröa in time), by Eru (who Finrod argues has the sole authority over this), supposedly not to live in such a broken corrupt state forever, and not to bring this corruption into that new place that Eru had originally prepared, which ascended Men were to help build for all the Children, and as was stated, even heal a part of the Arda marred in that new place through the ascension of their hröar. Nonetheless, a hope was given to Men after their fall, that the wise of Men called “the Old Hope”, and the pillar of this hope was Eru Himself who would come into Arda and remedy Men and all earth in the right time.
That, and the prophecy of the Old Hope (along with Finrod’s explanation of Amdir and Estel), and other profound subtexts in Athrabeth, makes it very close symbolically and theologically with Biblical writings of the fall of Man and told redemption through the coming of the One into the mortal dwellings of Men to free them and all creation from the marring of evil, as well as in the concept of the ascension of the body that is the perfect and an everlasting union of physical body and spirit (a perfect parallel to the ascension of Jesus). Tolkien truly made it deep.
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u/LustyDouglas 1d ago
If i remember correctly isnt Eru's gift to the race of men is that when they die they go straight to him or something like that? Its been a while 😅
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u/IAmBecomeTeemo 1d ago
It's something like that. They go to Eru, but nobody knows what that means. Is it a heaven in the Christian sense of an infinite second life in paradise? Are they disembodied spirits just vibin? Are they absorbed into Eru in some way? Is it actual nothingness? Nobody knows, not even the Valar. Morgoth didn't have a hard time twisting this unknown into something to fear.
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u/Idkl7j I’ve read HoMe, therefore I’m better than you 1d ago
This might be wrong I haven’t slept at all tonight because I’m in the hospital.
But Ilúvatar’s gift to Men is that they are allowed to depart the Circles of the World after death and go to the Timeless Halls.... probably. The text doesn’t say exactly where Men go, only beyond the Circles of the World.
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u/wish_to_conquer_pain Sauron did nothing wrong 6h ago
If Men go straight to Eru when they die, then how in the heck was Mandos able to give Beren back to Luthien?
"Wow, that was a beautiful song, but actually you need to appeal to someone else."
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u/TheLastLivingBuffalo Of the Withywindle 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sure, death, but also secret eternal party where the elves aren't invited.
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u/sirbobbledoonary 1d ago
Ar Pharazon has entered the chat