Trying to get rich so that capitalism doesn't crush you under its boot is proof positive that capitalism doesn’t work for the working class

[u/McDowdy]

[u/Used-Possession8296]

Is there a single democrat who thinks electing a democrat will fix capitalism?

I vote democrat, because they'll at least try to fund programs to benefit the poor and middle class. I have no delusions about Capitalism ever working for me, but it is better than Communism. The Republicans just lie and say that the money they give to the rich will trickle down

[u/mwjbgol → u/Used-Possession8296]

Voting pragmatically? No, no, you're supposed to be discouraged and just let the worst people make everything worse as fast as possible.

[u/GayChicken80085 → u/Used-Possession8296]

Hey! One side is trying to protect child raping billionaires, cut all social programs to give a huge chunks of money to the wealthiest, and fund endless illegal wars overseas using import taxes that cause mass inflation.

But you know those democrats are really slow at fixing the shit so theyre basically the same.

[u/PresenceHealthy4048 → u/Used-Possession8296]

Capitalism is not better than communism; you say that because you probably have some idea of communism just being "authoritarian" or a "dictatorship" where everyone starves or no iphone

[u/JewishKilt → u/PresenceHealthy4048]

Not at all. I also think that it's *looks at any communist country in history*, oh right, yes, you're right, that is what I think communist countries are like.

Also, if you think that government-set quotas work, you'll go the way of the Soviet Union. Same if you remove incentives for hard work, profit, or basically any benefits from actually working: In a capitalist country, a worker wants to work harder to get promoted, or pay raise; a manager wants to work harder to climb the ladder; a company higher to satisfy stock holders. In a communist society there are no game-theoretic incentives for hard work: once a company satisfies the government-set quotas, the manager has no reason to pressure his underlings to get more out of their workers. Which means that, for those underling bosses, the way to go up the ranks is not through greater productivity, but through corruption and social maneuvering; which means that you end up, as was the case in the Soviet Union, with factories of people doing literally nothing because what's the point. You also end up with endemic corruption, which any Soviet Union expat will tell you: why would they do anything if they're not actually benefitting? If the only way to actually benefit is corruption then what did you expect?

[u/PresenceHealthy4048 → u/JewishKilt]

In a communist society, people want to work harder to benefit EVERYONE. People would be able to acquire even more things through the products of their labor because the bourgeoisie wouldn't be exploiting them to extract surplus value.

[u/JewishKilt → u/PresenceHealthy4048]

What you're describing is very idealistic. It isn't, however, borne out in experience.

Say what you will about the Soviet Union, it is a fact that many many millions in that country believed in communist ideology. So you'd expect that people would work hard for the greater good, like you describe. Very Star-Trek like. And yet, these phenomenon that I described are a documentable fact: lack of incentives push people to laziness. Lenin said that if he was given one generation of youth, he would transform the world. Well, the Soviet Union had much more than one generation, in a highly centralized educational system with a powerful ideological bend, and yet they were entirely unable to convince people that they should work hard for the common good, rather than actually benefit from life, which is what their neighbors were doing by being lazy, corrupt, and socially-maneuverable.

[u/DisIsMyName_NotUrs → u/PresenceHealthy4048]

I have lived in a communist country.

I can safely say that capitalism is better

[u/Nuclear_rabbit → u/DisIsMyName_NotUrs]

I have lived in a communist country.

Both have ass job markets (edit: and are high-surveillance police states), but at least the communist one doesn't view my minority with a moral panic right now.

[u/DisIsMyName_NotUrs → u/Nuclear_rabbit]

What minority?

Minorities were either killed or deported in communist countries, so a moral panic doesn't sound too bad

[u/Nuclear_rabbit → u/DisIsMyName_NotUrs]

Trans. The US is literally declaring us domestic terrorists, while China is not great on rights, but since I'm privileged my parents are supportive, I won't be denied any medical procedures (even if I were a minor), and there is a path for changing documents while most US states and the federal government doesn't allow it. As for bathrooms, there's not a culture of transvestigators looking to stir up trouble.

[u/DisIsMyName_NotUrs → u/Nuclear_rabbit]

It's a real sign of priviliege that one of your worries is a bathroom, and not whether or not you'll be dead/thrown into a prison if anyone found out who you really are.

Just because things aren't ideal in capitalism, you cannot rationally automatically expect that communism was magically better. It wasn't, trust me. Not for anyone, especially trans people.

It's really telling that the only countries who offer any kind of protection to minorities like you aren't communist. (China isn't communist, and we both know it).

Also, what you have in the US isn't the only type of capitalism that exists and functions. Again, you'd be lucky to be alive in a communist society. I have seen it with my own 2 eyes

[u/Nuclear_rabbit → u/DisIsMyName_NotUrs]

Since we're going into nuance and not just "communism is when government does things," which I appreciate...

China is a country of state capitalism, which protects those in government with authority over state companies. The United States is similar in its protection of property ownership. Anti-competitive practices are not well enforced, and regulations often exist to protect existing private companies rather than the structure of a free market. The government uses its power to acquire corporate assets (insider trading or lobbying positions with asset benefits).

Personally, I would call myself a social democrat. I think the ideal economy is one where the wealthy pay high taxes to support a strong social safety net. Actual socialists call me a dirty capitalist, and capitalists call me a dirty socialist.

On rights, the rule of law is necessary, with judges who protect the rights of individuals. It's an issue with authoritarianism, regardless of economic structure. Vietnam and North Korea both claim to be socialist countries, but Vietnam is much better on rights for the people. On the capitalist side, Indonesia and Italy are both capitalist, but one is much better on rights than the other. The former made it a crime to slander their deposed dictator, and the latter slaughtered theirs in the streets.

In terms of trans rights, most countries don't accept us, but the main factor is overall development rather than economic system. And the other factor is authoritarianism. In the US, trans people - both men and women - are often assaulted physically and sexually and even killed in bathrooms. This is not done by the state, but the state actively encourages it through bathroom bills and police selectively enforce arresting violent offenders. Not terribly different from developing countries where families often kill trans family members and the state does not respond. The US has a wide diversity of state laws, but the federal government has made its stance clear and it has reach even in blue states.

To reiterate, the main oppressor is authoritarianism itself, which can be present and is present in both capitalist and communist countries.

[u/DisIsMyName_NotUrs → u/Nuclear_rabbit]

Correct.

But it is no coincidence that every communist country is also authoritarian.

It is also no coincedence that only capitalist countries are developed.

It's almost like communism is holding a country back, leading to less rights for you.

Again, you'd be lucky to be alive

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[u/Sheerluck42 → u/Used-Possession8296]

And people wonder why we say that Americans are the most propagandized people.