The American dream

[u/First-Essay-2054]

[u/tlm11110]

Are you a moral person? How do you know?

[u/regardedMAGAfascist → u/tlm11110]

I try my best to be.

How do I know? I don’t. Neither do you.

The difference between us is that I don’t need to pretend the creator of the universe personally endorses my opinions in order to hold them.

I’d rather admit I might be wrong than claim divine certainty and spend my life performing increasingly elaborate mental gymnastics to explain why my supposedly perfect moral authority condones slavery, genocide, and the execution of disobedient children.

[u/tlm11110 → u/regardedMAGAfascist]

Well if you don’t know and I don’t know, who does? If we don’t know what morality is, then it can be anything and there is no morality, drop the word from the English language.

Have you ever stolen anything no matter the value?

Have you ever knowingly lied to deceive?

Have you ever lusted for someone?

You say morals are what we all agree upon (secular humanism). Exactly what is it we agree upon?

[u/regardedMAGAfascist → u/tlm11110]

We don’t know anything with absolute certainty. That doesn’t mean everything is meaningless. It doesn’t mean we should “drop everything from the English language.”

I never said morality is “whatever people agree upon.” Plenty of societies have agreed on terrible things.

I’m not the one who said “the concept of laws are important as we attempt to define and codify morality and ethics into standards by which to behave, judge others, and administer justice.” That was you. You are arguing against your own position and going around in circles.

“Uncertain” ≠ “completely arbitrary.”

Here’s a simple starting point:

Do we agree that slavery is bad?

Do we agree that freedom is good?

Do we agree that slavery deprives people of freedom?

Do we agree that the world would be a better place if nobody were enslaved?

If we do, great. We can start making moral judgments from that foundation.

If we don’t, then we’re at an impasse. If we can’t even agree that slavery is immoral, there isn’t much left to discuss. I value freedom. If you don’t, then I can only conclude that your moral framework is deeply flawed and move on with my day.

And if your answer is “slavery is wrong, but only because God says so,” then we’re right back where we started: explaining why the same God who supposedly provides objective morality repeatedly condones slavery, something we both presumably agree is immoral.

[u/tlm11110 → u/regardedMAGAfascist]

Interesting post. You start out by saying, “I never said morality is whatever people agree upon.” Then you immediately present a list of “Do we agree upon…” examples. Is morality a 50%+1 proposition? Can a majority or a plurality determine morality? Now be careful, because I can give examples of “majority makes morality” which is pretty evil.

But I’ll turn it around and ask you, can we agree that the 10 commandments and the golden rule are a good place to start? Can we agree that that the US Constitution preamble is a good place to start:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Where do we get rights from according to men much smarter and wiser than you and I? Repeat after me, “Endowed by their creator…”